Seeking ideas for a durable wood shed

[Cedar Eater]

I hope this is the right place to discuss this. I plan to build a wood shed that will be open on all sides except the sky side (metal), the side facing the OWB (metal), and of course the dirt side (sand). I don't want to pour a slab and I would prefer not to pour any concrete. My plan was to use pressure treated SYP posts with a pole barn approach, but I would sure like to use trees harvested from my land as much as possible if I can make it cheaper. But I don't want them rotting away where they get near the ground. I have red oak, red maple, popple, and white cedar available from my land, but I prefer to use the maples for making syrup. I guess what I'm looking for is a way to sink PT SYP into the ground and then transition to one of my hardwoods maybe a foot or two above ground. I would prefer the popple hardwood if I can trust it not to weather away, but I could see using red oak for the verticals and then popple for the rafters, purlins, girts, etc.

While I appreciate the joinery of real timber framing, this will just be a wood shed so I don't need to spend a lot of time on all of the joints. I'm thinking of a 12' X 16'  frame with either a shed roof or a simple peaked roof with 18" overhangs all around. The plan will be to fill the woodshed with cut and split wood and then surround the contents with walls of cut firewood in a way that will allow me to hollow the interior through the winter and then burn the exterior wall stacks in the spring. I just can't think of any way, other than to join them to treated subsurface posts, to keep the posts from rotting and making this a waste of effort. Any ideas?

[Ianab]

I'd think the cedar would hold up the best when exposed to the weather? You up-size the poles a bit (or use a few more) to make up for it's lower strength, but that's not a big problem if it's you own trees you are using. The poplar should be OK for the rafters and purlins, where it's going to be mostly sheltered from the weather.

I'd say to fit some diagonal bracing to help support the vertical posts. But you don't need fancy joinery, just a box of galvanized bolts.

[Jim_Rogers]

Search this forum section for the "short pole" system story by me. and you should find a way to use PT underground and your stock above ground.
It can be done but you'll need to make sure that the roof system is tied down good as it will be exposed to wind and uplift.

Jim Rogers

[PineHill4488]

Mr. Rogers,
Thank you for the suggested search, there is a purple cloud in the house this morning because the final piece to my timberframing is in place.

Greg

[sandsawmill14]

i done the wiring on a morton building one time that was 40 x 60 with a 12 sidewall and they used 3 treated 2x6 to come out of the ground 1 came up 2', 1 came up 3', and 1 came up 4' with the shortest being in the middle then they used regular lumberyard 2x6s to finish the post to make 6x6s  i didnt like the idea when i saw it but that was 20+ years ago and he has not had any problems with it

[Heartwood]

I wouldn't use a foundation or poles in the ground at all for a woodshed. I suggest building a floor frame to handle the 200-300 lbs/sq.ft. firewood load, lay down boards with 1" air space between each course, and set the whole thing on blocks up off the ground. Then anchor your post feet to that, running a half lap or tenon down through the floor boards and tying to the sills/joists. This would also give you the option of moving the shed around if needed.

[Cedar Eater]

Gentlemen, I thank you. This site has been a great resource for me for years and you didn't disappoint me this time.

I'd think the cedar would hold up the best when exposed to the weather?

I don't want to risk that. White cedar doesn't seem to be as strong or weather as well as red cedar and I want the option of fully enclosing this building in the future and turning it into a shop or maybe a sugar shack.

Search this forum section for the "short pole" system story by me. <done> In this system you use a short piece of foundation grade pole underground and stand a regular non treated pole on top of it above grade. And nail a couple of treated 2bys  onto the sides of the poles to keep them in line.

they used 3 treated 2x6 to come out of the ground 1 came up 2', 1 came up 3', and 1 came up 4' with the shortest being in the middle then they used regular lumberyard 2x6s to finish the post to make 6x6s

I think a combination of these two approaches might work. Even though I'm going to have walls of firewood around the outside through the winter, I will have the posts exposed to the exterior during some part of the year. Three in particular on the west side will be 8' apart and I think those should be 6X6. For the posts on the other sides, I was thinking 4x4 and 4' spacing (keeping in mind that tall stacks of firewood may end up leaning against the walls from either side). I could see using the short pole method for those, with red oak 4X4s for the top and PT short poles for the bottom. Of course, I would add plenty of diagonal bracing and use metal framing ties at joints.

For the posts on the west side, which gets most of the weather, I could do a 2x6 PT all the way up with three 2x4s behind them to make 6x6s. They could be red oak on the top and staggered PT on the bottom. If I felt like getting fancy, I could make the red oak a solid 4x6 with a staggered bottom to mate with the three PT 2X4. I would hold them all together with Torx head deck screws. The PT 2x6 on the outside could be cut short so the popple rafter carrier can rest on it.

The hardwoods will be chainsaw milled, so it might be hard to get the precision required, but it would be interesting to attempt.

I wouldn't use a foundation or poles in the ground at all for a woodshed. I suggest building a floor frame to handle the 200-300 lbs/sq.ft. firewood load, lay down boards with 1" air space between each course, and set the whole thing on blocks up off the ground. Then anchor your post feet to that, running a half lap or tenon down through the floor boards and tying to the sills/joists. This would also give you the option of moving the shed around if needed.

This was a very interesting idea that I hadn't considered. My concern would be that the building would be empty in the spring and severe weather could move it for me, but not necessarily where I might want it, especially if it has a simple shed roof. I would also have to step or walk up into the building to fill it with firewood and retrieve the firewood and then back down again. The plan is to have the west side open so I can bring cut wood in and set it on sleepers on the sand floor and not have to step up or down. The OWB is stationary, so I can't picture needing to move the building. It also seems like it would need a lot more lumber for the floor, although it would have the advantage of not being purchased lumber. The weight of firewood stacked to the 6'- 8' level would be staggering, so the subfloor would have to be very strong. If I ever turn the building into a shop or sugar shack, I think that I will want it to have buried posts and a poured floor, which I could pour before enclosing the sides.

[Hilltop366]

For the few post you are going to need (10 or 12?) I would be tempted to price out pressure teated post for the full length verses cost of short post or laminating 2xs and hardware and fasteners and not have to mess around with all the extra work then you can use your use own lumber for the rest.

[Cedar Eater]

For the few post you are going to need (10 or 12?) I would be tempted to price out pressure teated post for the full length verses cost of short post or laminating 2xs and hardware and fasteners and not have to mess around with all the extra work then you can use your use own lumber for the rest.

I will definitely price it out. I normally wouldn't hesitate to buy the pressure treated lumber for a job like this, but I have other reasons for reconsidering. I'm not exactly cash poor, but I am time rich for the right projects and I like to utilize the materials my land produces. This project is fitting in with another chainsaw milling project and my annual firewood cutting. That reminds me, I also have tamarack, which is one of the hardest softwoods and has superior rot resistance. It might be a better choice than the red oak, but I don't know if it would have to be kiln dried or air dried for a year. I can build with red oak when it is green and one of the byproducts of this project would be firewood to put inside the shed to feed to the OWB, so the extra work from building posts from hardwood has an upside.


[Ianab]

Durability of your cedar should still be way better than the other woods you list.

Red oak for example is rated as "non-durable". If you leave it exposed to the weather it's not going to last.  You should be able to get similar strength by going to larger dimensions. Like, a 6x6 cedar is going to have similar strength to a 4x4 oak, as it actually has more than 2X the area.

Tamarack would be a good option too. It's pretty durable if it's not in ground contact, and has decent strength as well.

[Cedar Eater]

Durability of your cedar should still be way better than the other woods you list.

Red oak for example is rated as "non-durable". If you leave it exposed to the weather it's not going to last.  You should be able to get similar strength by going to larger dimensions. Like, a 6x6 cedar is going to have similar strength to a 4x4 oak, as it actually has more than 2X the area.

Tamarack would be a good option too. It's pretty durable if it's not in ground contact, and has decent strength as well.

Tamarack seems way better than white cedar to me. we use white cedar for fence posts because it lasts about 15 years. It mostly rots at ground level, but whats' left of the part above ground has no real strength. I really hope I can get much more than 15 years out of something else, as long as I have PT below grade. I'll look for tamarack that's big enough to make 4 x 6s.