The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Alternative methods and solutions => Topic started by: mike_belben on January 30, 2021, 10:33:24 AM

Title: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 30, 2021, 10:33:24 AM
here ya go guys. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on January 30, 2021, 11:00:19 AM
no matter where you go, there you are!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on January 30, 2021, 11:09:27 AM
I think this is hard on us old guys that own numerous types of gas or diesel powered equipment.  Maybe the government will stop a hobby guy from even owning a skid steer or big truck.  one of the freedoms i enjoy.  when they are here and are cheaper and better than petrol power, I will consider it.  I do not like the inflated OMG emergency bull they are feeding.  other than occasionally eating snails, I would never do something just cause the French are doing it.  Mom's maiden name is Lanoue.  so I am not saying EV is bad, but if it is made an emergency then i will be funding all the R&D with no choice in the matter.  We can be as clean as can be, and not only will China and third world countries continue to pollute, but we will have our goods made there since they can do it cheaper.  i have always thought they should put donation options (have that) on the tax forms with a check box for a program you want your "donation" to go to.  that could also be a barometer for out of touch folks spending our money to know what is really supported.  If you want to buy someone an abortion, check the box.  an in the words of Forest Gump,  "and that is all I have to say about that".   :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on January 30, 2021, 11:32:07 AM
I could use another cord as long as your out there splitting wood  :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 30, 2021, 11:40:04 AM
for future reference in the years to come this thread is a spinoff that started at #6669 from the daily pic thread in logging section.


There is a significant difference between what a vehicle driving down a paved road encounters and a skidder working in the woods.  The more complicated you make those systems, the more there is to break, and I just don't see any reasonable way to charge forestry equipment.  Pulling out a 1,000 lb battery at the end of each shift so the employee can take it home and juice it up?  Yea - that's not going to happen.  What about guys who run double shifts?  Need more energy partway through the day?  Run a diesel generator to charge the battery?  Guess there won't be any logging in California every time the wind blows and the grid shuts down.  The grid in many places has a hard time staying up in the heat of the summer from folks running their A/C.  How will the power be distributed for all of the transportation equipment?  EV's have a limited place, and it sure isn't woods work.  
Well, I'd agree on complicated.  Electric vehicles are much much less complicated than ICE equivalents, in any product class.  I had a JD 648 X stuck on a landing for 4 months because JD could not figure out what was wrong with it.  I had to force logger to have it towed off.  The faster I can get rid of the hydraulic and diesel powered equipment the more reliable, quieter, and more automated I can make a harvest.  
The worlds foremost lean design engineering firm in the automotive and aerospace sector is Sandy Munro's Munro and Associates.  He's a car nut through and through, favorite hobby is off roading in his jeep.  Old cuss.  He's got a youtube channel and I suggest everyone that has question go and watch a few episodes where they break down a model Y or talk about the future of pickups, etc.  They literally take out every single part, every part.  from screws to washers to wires to chips to seat upholstery. Complete breakdown.  Really really interesting to see him get into the details on cars, you get to see what is probably a $250,000 engineering report on youtube.  So, don't take my word for it.  Go hear what the world foremost outside consultant thinks.  
Which car is more complicated a tesla Y or a Civic?  Then expand the nature of the beast to a skidder.  Which do you think is more complicated.  An electric skidder or a new skidder from JD.  Charging a big battery will be a neat opportunity for someone but that's not much of a challenge.  I can pretty much guarantee that big diesel engines are going to get much much more expensive as they become niche things for specialty applications.  When trains and mining equipment guys have figured out that electric is better and they are getting ready to launch EV airplanes I don't see whats keeping someone from starting to build an EV skidder.  
Pluses:
More efficient propulsion.  Not converting fossilized sunlight into propulsion is over 2X as efficient.  
Capital Expense- 4 electric motors are much less expensive than a giant diesel, hydraulic pumps, hoses, filters, radiators, coolants, more filters, oils, etc.  
Complete computer control- Tesla sort of reimagined computer controls in a modern car; would benefit heavy equipment as well.  It is as much software as hardware.  Maybe in the future we could have a remote person running harvesters, get rid of cabs and ROP, CP etc.  Reimagine the nature and layout by basically making it robotic.  Visibility from cameras and drone. Get the person out of the machine - that's probably a 30 year thing but will likely happen.
Cons: How to keep 500kwh battery charged.  
Opportunities:  Cut the cost of a current skidder.  Create new process for charging a skidder overnight.  Replace entire fleet of ICE forestry equipment.  
wyatt i don't disagree with what you are saying when looked at as individual line items.  my stance is that you are looking at an individual machine vs an individual machine and not seeing how the entire support system for it plays out, how LONG it takes for the entire system to get there.



 the current system is established, is refined and will remain that way.  it will not be one electric powered product that voids out an entire diesel powered world.  it will require the entire EV system to be developed, refined and reliable.. at the same time as a failure in the diesel supporting world.  it would take outrageous fuel prices, elimination of new parts, then a discontinuing of aftermarket parts by non oems and a whole generation of future mechanics to NOT take interest in diesel.  look at all the smoke stacks and coal roller kids out there today.. you can't find an unmolested bro duty.  the kids aren't quitting on diesel yet at all.



you aren't a mechanic so you don't have a hard time letting go of a technology you never learned.  there are many many people, myself included, who have spent their entire lives getting the education, tools and experience to work on the equipment we have. to just say its all gotta go.. it negates our investment against our will.  it takes away the advantage i earned fair and square.  of course there will be resistance to it.   so you're new machine is trying to basically ruin some lives by making them start over like a kid again except one who probably doesn't know or want to learn how to insert a photo into an email or do a zoom meeting.  at a certain point you just don't have the drive for new tricks anymore,  so don't expect enthusiasm from them.  people know that once they lose the drive, the new technology will make them obsolete in the industry they finally got settled into. I'm one of them.



 i was an avionics tech in the marines, it was a very intensive schooling.  sit in a chair but have a headache and exhaustion from trying to keep your brain awake and staying with it.  in the field i worked on CH53D chopper electronic modules and they were obsolete by then so often could only be repaired by cannibalizing used units.  the new stuff was retiring the old stuff so the support for it is abandoned.  when you're electric skidder gets to that inevitable point, you won't be better off than the diesel.  probably worse.



  I'm telling you as someone with some experience that this new technology eventually becomes old technology that gets scrapped too.  maybe sooner, maybe later.  thats another gamble.  it doesn't matter if shaft rotation comes from diesel combustion, stored solar, compressed air, air over hydraulic, steam, nuclear..  it doesn't matter.  they all come and they all go. 



steam was simple and cheap, but dangerous.  well i agree with you electric consolidates many systems (that to you are complex but to me are second nature)  just like a few hundred volts DC is simple to some.. but dangerous to all.  so give it enough tragic high voltage accidents by layman mechanics waiting 3 weeks for a service guy, and eventually the NHTSA or whoever seizes jurisdiction will decide that these things are too dangerous for the public to wrench and that licensing is required to service them.  no?  3 phase is very simple but you need a license for that. plumbing is real simple, need a license for that.  guess what.  licensing reduces the number of technicians and raises their hourly rate.




so yes, you can bench race two machines and correctly say this one is x amount more efficient in the lab, on the dyno, even in our 2 year woods trials.  but does that extrapolate into being X amount more money in your bank account over the ownership of the machine considering both uptime, downtime, purchase cost, maintenance and repairs?  no one knows yet, its a gamble.  deere 440As are still in service.  nokia 5190s are not. but we can afford to toss a phone every 3 years, not a forwarder.      


in 15, 20 years when the new technology is needing substantial repairs, has the market trained enough people to fill the need affordably? or have the manufacturers planned the machine for obsolescence with proprietary parts in order for their company to survive long term without regard for yours? cuz thats very common!  it takes considerable business interruption to create the willingness for consumers to pay the aftermarket to dive in and solve hard problems.  


if they don't.. then what?  do you need to have a dead one out back to pop and swap control cards yourself just like i did in a avionics facility with rows of specialty test sets and top training?  if the federal government can't buy a solution who can?  the country has a STEM shortage.  hydraulics is very old, and quite simple, but there is still a vast shortage in that branch of industry with respect to troubleshooters and mechanics.  will electronics be any different?  maybe, but the world at large still believes current flows from the red plus sign, when the electron flow that carries current is from negative to positive so I'm not optimistic there about people being able to maintain their EV.  



the diesel became reality around 1893.  it was globally accepted and put into service worldwide, especially by WW2.  but with all that demand,  use and competition to improve.. truly they didn't even start to get really awesome until the 1980s with the cummins big cam, detroit 60 series and cat 3406B nearly 100 years after the first.  the 3406E/C15 is probably the pinnacle of factory diesels and then emissions put them into decline.  but see DEMAND AND ENTHUSIASM made them evolve to incredible levels of torque per cubic inch displacement.  it has only been EMISSIONS that has limited them and forced them into decline.  like girdling maples then saying maples just can't compete with oaks.  it took 100 years for the support network around the diesel to mature.  how many for the 
EV?
 

   the brand new engines in the brand new aero trucks today are getting 8mpg in a field of old trucks getting 5mpg but the 5mpg operations aren't dying like the brand new truck guys all say they should have, because the reliability, parts support, and in house overhauling of the classic trucks is strong while it has never developed for the new. 2010 big rigs of all brands are pretty much universally hated for EGR problems and are dirt cheap because they wipe out everyone who tries to run one it seems.   a 10yr old 700k mile plastic truck costs half of a 2 million mile 379 or w9, and thats just how it turned out.  no one could know this in 1970.  the guy i worked for will go out of business before he buys a volvo d12 much less some electric thing. the 5pmg truck does everything is supposed to with simplicity, including breaking down and getting put back together. so even the breakdowns are no problem.  just pull it in the shop and wheel the tool cart over like always. 



the future of the EV thing is unknown. we are in the 1970s speculating about 2020.  hell in 50 years will logging even be legal?  cast your bets, we will all have to see how it plays out because the performance curves and efficiency levels are only one sliver of the overall adoption of the technology and total outcome.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 30, 2021, 11:55:41 AM
I could use another cord as long as your out there splitting wood  :D
sorry bud its dishes laundry whiny kids and taxes today.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 30, 2021, 12:10:26 PM
and one more thought.  the peddlers of the new tech will always show those 2 NYC rush hour pics where the street is jammed with horse and buggy plus 1 car.  then 15 years later its jammed with cars plus 1 horse.  


they only show you the technology adoption rate.  they don't show you the buyers remorse rate of the adopters.  i hazard a guess that if we could have read all those folks text messages back and forth to each other, you'd tally up a whole lot of griping.

"wow this thing is expensive"
"my horse never had a flat, a dead battery or ran out of gas"
"How the F do you put the wires on this generator thing?"
"my kid is the only one who can figure out how to program the clock"
"excise tax!?  whats excise tax!?"
"the george washington bridge toll is HOW MUCH?!?"

etc
etc
;D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on January 30, 2021, 12:21:06 PM
Once in a while I try to remind myself that:

(1) In the history of the world nothing has ever stayed the same.
(2) 100 years is a tiny speck on the timeline of earth.
(3) All the extra things I use to think were really important are not important at all.

Then I get over myself and continue on as if I were normal. :)

Seems like diesel engines of the last 10 -15 years are where gas engine were in the 80's. Instead of making a better cleaner engine most efforts were put towards covering up the poorly designed by adding lots of crap and leaning them out until they knocked then retarded the timing and created a "cleaner" less efficient gutless piece of crap. Now diesel seems to be on the edge of getting better but we won't really know for a while.

The switch to electrically powered heavy equipment seems daunting but without trying it will never happen, I would expect limited success at first.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Jdock on January 30, 2021, 12:31:53 PM
Even 5 years ago I would have dismissed hybrid electric and full electric vehicles as overly complicated, fragile junk that hippies and celebrities bought mostly to show their friends how concerned about global warming they were. Since exotic metals aren't mined in any major metropolitan areas that aspect of their construction could be safely ignored. Now I'm beginning to rethink the viability of at least the hybrid technology. I was a diesel mechanic in the national guard for 7 years, I've worked in dealerships and independent garages on just about anything and I currently run CNC machines making rotating components for jet engines. I've got a couple of vehicles which present a bit of a paradox  to my conventional mindset. My 06 F-250 with the 6.0  is an absolute brute of a machine,  it's been severely abused all of its life and as far as I know all the major components are still original after 300k very hard miles. With that being said the thing is a nightmare to work on, the heui system has approximately 73,000 connections which are all potential failure points and all are well hidden by the manufacturer. The vgt side of the turbo has to be cleaned periodically or it seizes up and the EGR system is a disaster if left as the EPA wants it. I also have an 05 Prius I acquired with the intention of selling some parts off but wound up making a driver  at my girlfriend's insistence. After a fairly short learning curve I've concluded that the Prius is actually very easy to work on, troubleshoot, and parts are dirt cheap online. Replacing bad cells in the battery is a simple job and the cells themselves are readily available for around 25$ each. It's got similar miles to the Ford but gets 45mpg regularly and has been dead reliable with almost no maintenance for the past 30k or so. I have unintentionally made it a lowrider a few times by throwing engines or other heavy metallic items in the back and going over rough terrain. Can't really blame that on toyota though. I guess my point is that the new tech can be just as serviceable and reliable provided it's used within the reasonable limits of it's design
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: so il logger on January 30, 2021, 01:35:50 PM
Freight locomotives are battery powered I been told. However, every time one passes my house the big diesel engine is roaring??

The underground coal mines near here power the underground machinery on electric. But that is probably more of a exhaust fume in an enclosed space thing.. And they have quite the electrical grid on the surface.

Diesel fuel and saw gas is what gets it done in the woods. I'd sooner drag logs with mules than drive a Prius to my landing and unplug my skidder from its charging dock
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 30, 2021, 03:10:15 PM
the prius is a success because of its good design and good support system.. a competitive free market that wants to sell parts for it.  because theres a billion customers to sell to and that market size dictates many players will be in the business driving down the price of parts to get that inventory off their shelf and convert it to payroll. if you couldn't get the part it'd be a whole other matter.

 

the ford was forced by tier whatever compliance mandates to be a bad design with good support (and i love the chassis but just can't make the step backwards to v8 diesel on a personal level)  i can't think of a good design with bad support.  good designs lead to market adoration which leads to market support.  but... we have to look at how few people are loggers compared to anything else they could be and know that the market will be very small compared to passenger cars.  if there is only one OEM and say 1, 2 or maybe zero aftermarket suppliers for the critical components of an electric forwarder because theres only a few thousand in existence.. well then its gonna be an expensive piece of equipment outside of warranty.  


we've had a TDI jetta and a yaris.  both mass produced hyper economical cars well loved and with lots of support.  i much prefer working on the yaris. i forbid another TDI and welcome another yaris.  but will say honda has been absolutely phenomenal since 1989.. i made a living for 3 years building race motors and trannies for drag and auto cars.. honda is so cutting edge they can't help but make ridiculous power and stay together.  incredibly good technology and build techniques makes for incredibly good market adoption and then a massive aftermarket so they can then make power cheaper than anything in HP/displacement.


hey my milwaukee battery tools are crushing my air tools so I'm not saying the technology isn't possible in any way.  I'm certain it is.  will the cash flow of being in the woods with the whizzbang new equipment be any different after its out of warranty.  depends on the adoption rate and support that grows around it.  a genuine snap-on nicad battery for my now almost absolete CT-4850HO impact gun is outrageously high.  so high i would replace the gun before the battery. and it was THE BEST when i invested in it long term.  i replaced the cells with some generics for cheap and its just meh now.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on January 30, 2021, 05:04:08 PM
The biggest stumbling block to electric forestry equipment is where the heck you are going to recharge it? (Oh, and cost) 

I think bio-diesel would be the more practical option. It's not widely available currently, but it could be, and it's as easy to transport out into woods as dino-diesel. Formulation might need tweaking, to prevent jelling or oxidation, but those should be easier problems to solve than the 10 mile / 100 Amp extension cord.  :D

Buses, trucks, and even farm equipment is different. Those return to the depot / yard / barn at the end of the day, but a skidder or tracked harvester basically lives in the woods, and needs it's fuel bought to it. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: sprucebunny on January 30, 2021, 05:25:57 PM
The starting battery for my truck needs to be replaced every year.... hope they got something better.....

New Hampshire has the highest electric rates in the country.

Color me not excited.

Luckily, I'll be dead by the time electric vehicles are required.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on January 30, 2021, 05:27:14 PM
A new potato harvester that digs 4 rows costs over $600,000. 280 barrels to the acre, $12/barrel to grow, $14 delivered to the plant. 500 acres to harvest a year. How many years to pay it off @ 6% interest? :D :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 30, 2021, 06:41:24 PM
Doesnt NH also have more chip burning power plants than most other states?  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Runningalucas on January 30, 2021, 07:06:26 PM
Until we get rid of Planned Obsolescence, and the consumerism it breeds, it doesn't matter what tech is out there; we'll continue to be the donkey led around by the carrot.

As to the move towards heavy electronics, it's just stupid, and doesn't make much sense.  The mechanical car was in varying ways already perfect, but that ugly concept of "Planned Obsolescence", caused that perfection to be eradicated......  My brother's got a 2011 Hyundai Genesis; no bearing, race, spring, shock, or mechanical went wrong with it, but a 'chip' somewhere did.  Thank god he had the extended warranty, because the dealer spent 11 grand in replacement chips before it ran right.  

On that note, and those who love the electronics, many moons ago, in the electrical construction trade, talking with engineers; almost all of our tech isn't shielded in any way.  Almost all of our infrastructure, as well as MOST of the electronics out there aren't protected from EMPs, and/or Solar flares; remember the Carrington Event?  

Just thoughts, not looking for an argument; I'm comfortable being a Luddite, lol!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on January 30, 2021, 07:35:19 PM
And the world in general calls it progress! And yet the basic components of this ball of rock, dirt, water, and air ar pretty much still the same as it has EVER been.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: sprucebunny on January 30, 2021, 07:38:27 PM
Doesnt NH also have more chip burning power plants than most other states?  
As far as I know, only one of the six are running. Bad news for forest owners with plans to thin out low grade wood.
They were shut down by some political thing.

We also have an extremely low incidence of solar power.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on January 30, 2021, 07:52:36 PM
Many decades ago I used to cut cedar posts for a living. 8'4" and my old Chevy Viking would hold about 100 +/-. I loaded with a IH Super H tricycle tractor. Old manure loader that had no tilt just a manual trip bucket that I welded a couple of tines so the bucket would hold about 4 posts on average. Since I mostly worked alone I was careful to keep the posts in line and I would alternate big and small end as I drug them out. I have run just about every make and model of log loader since those days and I can tell you nothing I have been on since would load 100 scattered posts as handily as that Old Super H that I paid $600 for and was a 40 year old machine then.

The old 1958 Viking ton and half truck had a 6 cylinder engine that got around 18mpg fully loaded. You couldn't make the old H tractor burn 5 gallons of gas in days time. 

Those machines had there place and  I have yet to see anything built today that will be working for a living 40 years from now.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on January 30, 2021, 09:20:56 PM
Look at farm tractor auctions.  Stuff from the '80s and '90s is selling for more than it sold for new.  Guys don't want all the tech, and that older stuff simply runs.  My 300 HP JD 8640 is an awesome tractor, and it's over 40 years old, but there is no way I would buy a late model JD anything.  These days you don't even own the computer operating program according to JD, they claim you lease it and can't work on their systems as a result.  So in addition to paying for that $750K tractor you have to pay for the tech to come and service it no matter what.  I will take a pass.      
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 30, 2021, 11:41:22 PM
Well here goes:

Mike I think there are very very few market driven technological changes that people would give up.  Here's just a brief list.


Old vs new:

On and on and on.  Market driven technological change is constant since the dawn of the flint chippers.  Do all those old things work?  Sure.  Would the luddites give up the new fangled inventions for them? Rarely by choice. Do you think anyone wanted to go back to driving a team of horses in NYC?  or depend on a cross cut to cut lumber for a home.  

I think most problems exist when transitions take place at a gradual pace due to govt regulations. The issues with diesel equipment and computer controls are many.  The controls exist to keep pollution to a min for a fuel with certain pollutant streams that are just off the chart.  Lots of nice things about diesel and kerosene but lots of negatives as well.  It's not been as easy to fix the pollution issue on diesel with computer controls as it has been with gasoline.  Computer controlled fuel injectors have done wonders for cars, longevity really increased, reliability went way up of course part of that was also due to competition.  Sadly not the same story in any heavy equipment category that I know about.  I think diesel is in a really bad spot.  Companies are not going to be able to attract capital (or human capital) to make new engines that meet emissions restrictions that are tightening.  This will drive up costs and increase interest in transitioning.  

So on to electric equipment.  Would you want to give up your battery powered tools and return to corded tools.  No..no don't think so.

Electric cars vs petrol ?  Well the market is saying electric is going to crush them and I can't believe they will be wrong on this one.  Tesla is worth more than the remaining top 20 car companies combined.  They are worth more than big oil in the US and most of Europe combined.   Anyone that has driven a Tesla is pretty much satisfied, I think happiest satisfaction ratings out there.  They are coming on 10 years for the first model S and the major complaint is how the cars keep dropping in price, many cars have several hundred thousand miles.  If you buy Model Y today it is likely the new ones in 4 years will have more range, go faster, and be cheaper.  Now GM has announced plans to stop producing petrol cars in 13 1/3 years.  Tesla has grown sales at almost 50% a year and they have backlogs on backlogs of orders.  The safety of Tesla is the best there is, bar none, in passenger vehicles.  When auto driving is a bit more mature it will only get better, there is a reason Tesla created an Insurance company for Teslas.  Real insurance risks are low.

Chainsaws:  The only complaint I have about the family battery powered chainsaw is that the battery doesn't last as long.  Less vibration, much less noisy, cuts just fine. Battery advances are coming along just fine, in 7 years I'll be able to take a chainsaw into the woods with a couple of spare batteries and top up as much as I want to do so.  Maybe 7 years after that they'll be used in felling.  Not sure, doesn't matter the trend is clear.  

So heavy equipment. 

Volvo:
New Volvo Compact Electric machines ECR25 and L25 in action - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2u9kcQQSiE)

Cat was bragging about a 300KWh battery pack in 25 ton prototype but thats really not that big a deal today with several tesla vehicles nearly that large.  

As the battery packs get more capable and software that manages them more commonplace I guess we'll see construction start to go electric, say in 5 years.  I'd love an electric skidsteer!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: ljohnsaw on January 31, 2021, 12:54:48 AM
 :P
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on January 31, 2021, 04:52:08 AM
Well here goes:

Mike I think there are very very few market driven technological changes that people would give up.  Here's just a brief list.


Old vs new:
  • Telegraph for telephones?  Don't think so
  • Land Lines instead of cell phones?  Nope
  • Typewriters instead of computers?  Nope
  • Horses for transportation instead of cars?  seriously...do you know how disgusting city streets were and the stables, they were a nightmare- bringing food in and taking out manure by the barrel full for a team of 4?  Don't get me started on keeping tack and harness looking good and supple in a shat covered streets.  
  • Crates instead of containers for shipping? - no way
  • Coal instead of diesel for heavy equipment? - nope again
  • Trains instead of airplanes for long distance travel?  Nope and no way, for fun once a decade but no
  • medicine men tonics or medicine- nope and no thanks!
  • The whiplash machine vs chainsaw?  Are you kidding?  I've cut wood with a cross cut.  Whew, no thanks.
  • Clothes washer vs hand washing.  Did that in Thailand and Myanmar and Cambodia...nope

On and on and on.  Market driven technological change is constant since the dawn of the flint chippers.  Do all those old things work?  Sure.  Would the luddites give up the new fangled inventions for them? Rarely by choice. Do you think anyone wanted to go back to driving a team of horses in NYC?  or depend on a cross cut to cut lumber for a home.  

I think most problems exist when transitions take place at a gradual pace due to govt regulations. The issues with diesel equipment and computer controls are many.  The controls exist to keep pollution to a min for a fuel with certain pollutant streams that are just off the chart.  Lots of nice things about diesel and kerosene but lots of negatives as well.  It's not been as easy to fix the pollution issue on diesel with computer controls as it has been with gasoline.  Computer controlled fuel injectors have done wonders for cars, longevity really increased, reliability went way up of course part of that was also due to competition.  Sadly not the same story in any heavy equipment category that I know about.  I think diesel is in a really bad spot.  Companies are not going to be able to attract capital (or human capital) to make new engines that meet emissions restrictions that are tightening.  This will drive up costs and increase interest in transitioning.  

So on to electric equipment.  Would you want to give up your battery powered tools and return to corded tools.  No..no don't think so.

Electric cars vs petrol ?  Well the market is saying electric is going to crush them and I can't believe they will be wrong on this one.  Tesla is worth more than the remaining top 20 car companies combined.  They are worth more than big oil in the US and most of Europe combined.   Anyone that has driven a Tesla is pretty much satisfied, I think happiest satisfaction ratings out there.  They are coming on 10 years for the first model S and the major complaint is how the cars keep dropping in price, many cars have several hundred thousand miles.  If you buy Model Y today it is likely the new ones in 4 years will have more range, go faster, and be cheaper.  Now GM has announced plans to stop producing petrol cars in 13 1/3 years.  Tesla has grown sales at almost 50% a year and they have backlogs on backlogs of orders.  The safety of Tesla is the best there is, bar none, in passenger vehicles.  When auto driving is a bit more mature it will only get better, there is a reason Tesla created an Insurance company for Teslas.  Real insurance risks are low.

Chainsaws:  The only complaint I have about the family battery powered chainsaw is that the battery doesn't last as long.  Less vibration, much less noisy, cuts just fine. Battery advances are coming along just fine, in 7 years I'll be able to take a chainsaw into the woods with a couple of spare batteries and top up as much as I want to do so.  Maybe 7 years after that they'll be used in felling.  Not sure, doesn't matter the trend is clear.  

So heavy equipment.

Volvo:
New Volvo Compact Electric machines ECR25 and L25 in action - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2u9kcQQSiE)

Cat was bragging about a 300KWh battery pack in 25 ton prototype but thats really not that big a deal today with several tesla vehicles nearly that large.  

As the battery packs get more capable and software that manages them more commonplace I guess we'll see construction start to go electric, say in 5 years.  I'd love an electric skidsteer!
Nothing wrong with newer and better. Problem is 99% is not better; its crap shoved down our throats by the race to make it cheaper or safer for "our own good" by educated(?) idiots who feel that they must dictate other peoples choices. 
I'd buy a new H or an 8N in a heartbeat because they are better. Better in that they are a such a rugged and simple design they can last not just the lifetime of the original owner but generations beyond. Alternator over a generator that is improvement. I wouldn't want a tube TV and I prefer electric lights to kerosene lamps but I don't want my 100 watt incandescent bulb that keeps my well from freezing on a cold night made illegal. I guess once you outlaw my chainsaw I won't need to argue about the newer/safer/cleaner/greener gas jug spouts your ilk forced upon us.
Your plastic, electric piece of crap wonder machine will do wonders until the morning comes when you wonder why it won't move because a mouse built a nest in your command console. 
I have no qualms with the market deciding what is "better" even if I personally disagree. Looking at the truck/equipment world the market answered not just "no" but "heck no" with the DEF fiasco. Nothing to do with a market choice because choice was made illegal. Comply or do without. Great options.
There is a huge market for a simple and reliable machine to clip a few acres of pasture, plow the garden, and clear out the driveway after a snow. Those tasks don't require the expense to install and maintain GPS or a service link to worldwide HQ to monitor performance. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Roxie on January 31, 2021, 07:39:17 AM
All improvements are not better. Check out my washing machine thread, where high efficiency means saving water but requiring more than twice the electricity to run. Not to mention the need to leave the door open on the washer to eliminate the stink. 

Delaware has banned plastic bags. You should have seen the look on my sons face when I told him that the reason everyone switched from paper bags was to save trees. Paper bags break down in the environment but plastic is forever. 

Saying manure isn’t manageable in horses versus cars is also very short sighted. Horse manure is sold in our area because it is the king of fertilizer. It’s putting nutrients back into the soil, again versus car cost and emissions problems. 

My life experience has been that technology can indeed peak out and cross the line backwards. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 31, 2021, 08:36:08 AM
Ive already conceded that the day will come when electric retires combustion.  We have no argument there.  It is coming soon like it or not.


Your feeling that it will be a market driven demand is a gray area.  We are the market and at present you seem to be the only one looking forward to it.  Most others are wishing they could still get a brand new crate 6bt, 3406, 3-53 etc etc but they cant and lament it. So that isnt really market demand, that is market being demanded by govt, by politics, by mega manufacturers because their boards says this is the future, now implement it.  Ive been in big manufacturing, its top down, pure and simple.



Like i said already, when you invested your whole life into getting the skills and tools to maintain a thing you arent happy about the change away from it, thats natural even if the new thing does turn out great.  The saddlemakers and horsegroomers probably werent happy with the car interrupting their livelihood.  The investors in blockbuster video probably not happy with the internet ending theirs.   It happens and we adapt and move on but not everyone loves change. Some people are actually content right this minute and dont want that changed on them.



Your stance seems to be electric will be great right out of the box, flagship electric harvester, first one, just perfect.  I think you may have actually said to me youd buy the first one out. [And if im wrong forgive me, this isnt an emotional argument for me btw i just enjoy debate to flush out information.]  Well, maybe it will be great.   And if your experience is great others will join you sooner.  If youre honest about a bad experience, or if it wipes you out publically,  others will swear it off the rest of their lives and then the technology has to try again on the next generation, the adoption rate is slower.



With mechanized harvesting slaying trees in seconds that took a century to grow...  Food for thought here..  Men with crosscuts took out the giant sequoia and redwood a lot faster than they probably expected.  How much more quickly can fleets of harvesters and forwarders continue to strip trees before weve run out of trees to strip?  How ironic will it be if by the time the electric logging equipment is perfected there are only fenceposts to harvest anyway and theyd be more PROFITABLE with a handsaw and a mule pulling a rickshaw than a 3 million dollar computer on bogies?  The way the money is printed right now it may be 10mil.  They may be chopping off the inflation zeros or we may be using a completely different currency.  




For anyone who thinks hydraulics are terrible and electric is awesome, im pretty fluent in both.  Wait until youre trying to find the leaking electrons in a proprietary circuit card with 200 black wires on 120 pin needle connectors with no labels, and the dealer wont share the pinouts.  Btdt, not as reliable or as easy as ya think.  Youll miss that 303 sauce when high voltage DC smoke is dripping out instead. 



Think repacking a hydraulic cylinder is a chore? Wait until youve scattered the balls out of the precision ground recirculatory lead nut in the 5 start ballscrew thats inside your high speed linear actuator with a DC servo motor with encoder feedback.  That'll be a fun day. 


Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on January 31, 2021, 09:53:35 AM
@stavebuyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15189) would would you buy and use an H or 8N if it was converted to run on electricity? It would be the same machine mechanically that you loved, just quieter, no exhaust, more torque.


@mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722) how about you? Your gas skid steer that you hate the engine in, without the gas engine you hate?


These discussions always get off into the weeds about computers, technology, difficulty to fix, I tried to bring it up in the other thread but it really doesn’t have to be that way. We invented the electric motor in 1834! Diesel in 1890s? Electric motors are solid, proven robust technology. They have been running our industries for years and years. 


It seems like the actual problem that most people have is batteries and how we will charge them? (Ignoring of course all the emotional responses about freedom, job displacement, etc) Battery tech is very good now, but needs to get better and to me that better is less rare earth minerals. Otherwise we have pretty much nailed it and lithium batteries are crazy good and only getting better.


I have an allis chalmers that is better suited than the 8N for conversion because it has a full frame instead of the engine being structural. If this guy comes through with a good deal on batteries it will go under the knife for a conversion and folks can call me a blasphemer a hippy a nut job or tell me it is going to break and won’t work but those are emotional responses. We have electric vehicles, they are here. Check out some of the DIY conversions out there. Rock crawlers, boats, cars, tractors, ATVs, you name it there is already somebody building it in their garage or back yard. Folks can say all they want that they don’t want to pay a million dollars for computer controlled junk they can’t work on and have to pay a tech, but they have been doing it for years and I just scratch my head because that is already where we are if you are buying a new machine you can’t escape it. Even chainsaws get taken to the dealer and plugged in now for diagnostics!! No I do not like that or agree with it and that is why I run 041, 359, 346xp.


The mindset of conversion keeps your favorite old dino burner going, it is the same machine you just did an engine swap. An EASY engine swap!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on January 31, 2021, 10:14:23 AM
If it works well in a new application, that is fine, and for each to decide.  the climate is force the petrol out the door and force folks to use a tech. that is not yet ready in terms of design and infrastructure.  If we all decide to convert a skid steer tomorrow, what website do we go to.  and how many times more expensive will it be than a good used engine from a similar machine.  It is ready or not, here we go.  all it will do is drive up the price of the current stuff, via all the regulation on oil, and old tech.  Cash to clunkers was just a redistribution of wealth.  did nothing for the environment.  made the cost of a used car and parts go up.  Leave everyone else out of it, if you want an electric converted machine tomorrow, fine!  Do not take all the options away from those of us more comfortable with old stuff.  if electric is really better, then we can change our mind.  You want to tax my diesel fuel to pay companies to produce so called environmentally friendly stuff before the market is ready.  If a company is formed to make the stuff, let them get capitol and hire engineers to develop it, and then market the stuff.  The market will decide if and when items are better.  the same politicians will get all the jet fuel they want to travel around and tell the rest of us what to do.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 31, 2021, 10:23:49 AM

@mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722) how about you? Your gas skid steer that you hate the engine in, without the gas engine you hate?


Thats an example that can be used to sway in either direction that i could be predisposed to depending one which part i wanted to look at.   One thing it can prove is you cant make money with ANY broken machine no matter how its powered.
The engine itself is pretty good as engines go honestly.  Ford kent was extremely successful.  The problem is parts availability and cost if its available at all, when youre talking about a bobcat.  The  ignition distributor is NLA so ive gone off into the woods adapting other stuff, both expensive new fangled [pertronix electronic]  and very cheap old fangled [breaker points] and both have been constant problems.  The new stuff would fail without notice in short order and be very expensive to order a replacement proprietary part with no way around it that would just fail again soon.  
I managed to figure out how to graft an oldschool points and condensor into the pertronix distributor body (which was the only way i could get good bushings for the shaft to maintain point gap) and then have had quality control issues with the cheap old simple part, probably due to offshore manufacturing being required to stay competitive at autozone.  A genuine lucas breaker plate was hot glued and failed.  But it was under $10.  Got another different import and it had a poor isolator on a connector that took me a week to find and fix free.  The motor immediately started but it also immediately bent a valve which i now think was from a head gasket leak draining into it and then freezing.  Im not certain.  Its also 42 years old, was burnt to the ground and sold 4x AFTER the fire so i mean.. Does it even count?  I think its more a testament that im pretty good at resurrecting trash then any other conclusion.  Brand new, these machines revolutionized construction. Im on the end of this technology not the beginning. 
If it had a kubota diesel like it should have in the first place my experience would be totally different.   What to do now?   Well i have an OM617 down here that is a consideration.  But ya know what?  I also have a pile of DC electric 24 and 36 volt stuff i have stripped out of electric forklifts and carts and chairs for who knows what future projects.  I have also got an off grid house to build and have built weldernators and all sort of junk like that so im not against electricity or battery... Im just a devils advocate with his fingers in a little of everything.  Theres an upside and a downside to everything.  
Besides itll be a boring thread if no one bickers  ;D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 31, 2021, 10:25:30 AM
1.  Where the hell do my spaces always go?  I put in like 3 to 5 between every paragraph? 


2.  What doc said 10,000 times.   Precisely that.  We are transitioning out of an american free market economy and into a chinese style planned market economy, not by accident.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on January 31, 2021, 10:30:31 AM
@stavebuyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15189) would would you buy and use an H or 8N if it was converted to run on electricity? It would be the same machine mechanically that you loved, just quieter, no exhaust, more torque.


@mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722) how about you? Your gas skid steer that you hate the engine in, without the gas engine you hate?


These discussions always get off into the weeds about computers, technology, difficulty to fix, I tried to bring it up in the other thread but it really doesn’t have to be that way. We invented the electric motor in 1834! Diesel in 1890s? Electric motors are solid, proven robust technology. They have been running our industries for years and years.


It seems like the actual problem that most people have is batteries and how we will charge them? (Ignoring of course all the emotional responses about freedom, job displacement, etc) Battery tech is very good now, but needs to get better and to me that better is less rare earth minerals. Otherwise we have pretty much nailed it and lithium batteries are crazy good and only getting better.


I have an allis chalmers that is better suited than the 8N for conversion because it has a full frame instead of the engine being structural. If this guy comes through with a good deal on batteries it will go under the knife for a conversion and folks can call me a blasphemer a hippy a nut job or tell me it is going to break and won’t work but those are emotional responses. We have electric vehicles, they are here. Check out some of the DIY conversions out there. Rock crawlers, boats, cars, tractors, ATVs, you name it there is already somebody building it in their garage or back yard. Folks can say all they want that they don’t want to pay a million dollars for computer controlled junk they can’t work on and have to pay a tech, but they have been doing it for years and I just scratch my head because that is already where we are if you are buying a new machine you can’t escape it. Even chainsaws get taken to the dealer and plugged in now for diagnostics!! No I do not like that or agree with it and that is why I run 041, 359, 346xp.


The mindset of conversion keeps your favorite old dino burner going, it is the same machine you just did an engine swap. An EASY engine swap!
I have lots of battery tools and an off grid cabin with a solar electric set-up that I also wired for a gas generator.  I have owned plenty of obsolete battery tools that I discarded because they are useless after a few years. Electric forklifts in a warehouse are the cats meow; but at my farm with no prospect of running electric lines that I don't want on my land; the water is crystal clear but practical electric not so much. Two 5 gal jugs of dino juice will run my tractor or generator all weekend. How much is a solar/battery setup to recharge my tractor overnight when I am not using it going to cost? Where are all the panels and batteries to go after they are junk in 5 years? I already know the answer. You eliminate me and my independence from the face of the earth under the mantle of progress. The sad part is it will end just like the paper vs plastic bags fiasco. I lose and and so do you. All the switching to bury oil and then to discover you created worse problems you never knew existed from unintended and unknown consequences. I may be an uneducated idiot but I understand the concept that there is no such thing as a free lunch. People aren't nearly as clever as they think themselves to be.
The non-fossil fuel electric production does not exist to run the current "fluff load" of house lighting and tv sets. How are you going power all the heavy lifting done with diesel equipment in fifteen years on top of that. This is going to be an unmitigated disaster of biblical proportion when everything you own and depend upon to exist is tied to a grid that is shutdown like California. Count me out.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on January 31, 2021, 10:32:49 AM
Where does the energy come from to charge the batteries would be my first question and is it the most efficient use of energy? In our area of the world it's hydro electric in other areas it's coal/petroleum. What are the losses in conversion and does it make sense?


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10199/122432946_10221545457298968_864803920489650217_n~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612107043)
 

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on January 31, 2021, 10:41:56 AM
any energy transfer has losses for sure.  any heat, light, sounds are signs of loss.  If we are using oil or gas to make electricity, then it just makes the people driving the car feel good.  solar uses all kinks of plastics (oil) and the landscape is littered with windmills and panels.  i guess the big city folks, think they can come to the rust belt and plunk them down, but that is changing.  however, the concern is that the current climate (not the global temp.) may allow those folks high on the greed new deal crap, to force unwilling property/land owners do it for the "good of the country".  I am not opposed to electric energy and machines,  I am opposed to the loss of liberty justified with a false emergency.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on January 31, 2021, 11:11:18 AM
But don't forget in all this, we have been heavily subsidizing big oil out of our pockets the whole time.

For my wife's car, as soon as good electric small SUV's start coming off lease its a no brainer. For heavy work, I'll wait and see but I've blown way more engines than motors, I have no doubt its coming.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on January 31, 2021, 11:12:51 AM
It's funny how many people are in favor of solar, right until they see a 3,000 acre clear cut being dozed over for a solar farm that backs up to their house.  It's happening here in VA now, and the NIMBY's sure howl and say how "conflicted" they are about it.  Enjoy is my response. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: sharp edge on January 31, 2021, 11:18:22 AM
The government  and big co. are brobaly trying to slow things down. That what happen when the jet engine took over the piston engine in airplanes. It was called the big lie.


SE
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on January 31, 2021, 11:27:26 AM
the government has often screwed up free markets and that is often why they end up helping out.  Is there even enough copper and aluminum in the world to go all electric.  how deep will we have to dig, and with what equipment to mine all of that.  If we push hard and fast enough, we will have it.  It may not be that it was the best decision. fast enough, and with enough shame and emotion, and you can ignore the unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on January 31, 2021, 11:30:28 AM
@Don P (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=17) that is the point.  It is not a no brainer, it is your choice.  sincerely with all due respect!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 31, 2021, 12:04:53 PM
Dont worry if the price is high enough it trickles down to scrap markets and then the industry is supported by theft based recycling.  Crispy critters laying fried at the bottom of a telephone pole with loppers into the ground.  Carlots full of vans with the cats cut off.  Come home from vacation and find your basement has been copper gutted.  


Or did we already forget the scrap boom?



For disposal we just ship it to ghana. Take a look
 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 31, 2021, 01:51:58 PM
So there is a production electric skidsteer out there.  


Electric Skid Steer with Remote Control | 100% Independent, 100% Electric - YouTube (https://youtu.be/tATfs1DjTr8)

These two are too clean clothed british for me to not be annoyed so i jumped around.. The run time vs charge time specs are gonna make adoption very difficult because it seems like itll be about 50/50 or worse.  Where you can fuel a diesel in about 5 minutes and run it from sunup to sundown.  So what if you need to fill again.. 10 minutes a day of fueling and the rest working. If youre working a machine it should be generating revenue to buy the fuel.  If youre charging half the day you arent making money.  


At a glance it is a pretty machine, i cant fault the chassis and it does seem to have a sufficient sized electric system for its torque demand.. I just cant see a contractor with a diesel option choosing this for the same money in a free market.  But this isnt built for a free market.. Its built for a "carbon neutral" market where companies with an ideological purpose will dictate only such machinery will be used on their projects.  So yes, someone paving google parking lots will make a killing with one because of satisfying that idealogical demand.  In that special contract circumstance there is surely a fortune to be made for few.  

The question is what is the outcome for anyone else who jumps in?   Dont know.




Of interest to me was also this converted 2014 bobcat 530 [pretty big machine] with electric over hydraulic where he didnt spec or show the electrical system.

Electric bobcat - YouTube (https://youtu.be/IY6sv7kPIYo)



if i were to repower mine it would be done the same way.  Batteries to mono-directional motor, on-off switch, to dc forklift motor i have, coupled to the existing pump the engine used to run.  


His lugs down to a near stall in pivot turns with no load which tells me the system just didnt have the torque for the load that the high pressure pump is calling for but it was a big motor.. What 70hp? 90?


   Im sure the video was fully charged since no one is gonna demo the thing dead.. And it was only about a minute of use.  Im certain his budget is bigger than mine considering the base machine value.



Any battery available to me cheap at present probably isnt gonna be able to maintain the 35hp torque curve im used to which was wimpy to begin with.  And before i spent the money on batteries that are up to snuff id put in a diesel that the chassis was built around,  for less.  



I know enough about the present situation with offgrid battery bank life and maintenance and sulfation issues that i dont see them having the 20 plus year service life of a diesel yet. Maybe some day.  If i build a 36vdc electric bobcat then i need to build a gas powered 36vdc charger to go out in the woods and rescue it every time i dont make it back to the house and thats just not gonna fly.  Where is the win on that program?  



I will probably reserve those electric parts for the 5 wheeler john deere gators someone gave me.  Be handy to fetch the mail and water my daisies.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Trackerbuddy on January 31, 2021, 02:00:38 PM
The technology isn’t mature. Until a pound of batteries has as much energy as a pound of diesel fuel the machines will struggle to compete. They talk about lithium air batteries having that type of energy but they can’t make them work yet.

https://www.gocomics.com/freerange/2021/01/31 (https://www.gocomics.com/freerange/2021/01/31)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on January 31, 2021, 02:58:09 PM
Since I've been working in a confined space with a skidsteer and 3 fans going, that battery bobcat isn't looking like a bad idea. There's a butt for every seat  :D. I think the main argument I'm hearing is we don't like "the end justifies the means" but rather it is easier to have the means justify the end. It is usually better to use the carrot rather than the stick.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on January 31, 2021, 03:10:48 PM
It seems that there are no new sources of energy yet to replace fossil fueled battery charging except nuclear. Solar would need even heavier subsidies than oil and of course at this point in time would rely on the oil industry for extraction and manufacturing and as was mentioned in another thread on solar, the plastic components breakdown quickly when exposed to sunlight.  
Maybe lunar panels?  :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 03:13:09 PM

Nothing wrong with newer and better. Problem is 99% is not better; its crap shoved down our throats by the race to make it cheaper or safer for "our own good" by educated(?) idiots who feel that they must dictate other peoples choices.
I'd buy a new H or an 8N in a heartbeat because they are better. Better in that they are a such a rugged and simple design they can last not just the lifetime of the original owner but generations beyond. Alternator over a generator that is improvement. I wouldn't want a tube TV and I prefer electric lights to kerosene lamps but I don't want my 100 watt incandescent bulb that keeps my well from freezing on a cold night made illegal. I guess once you outlaw my chainsaw I won't need to argue about the newer/safer/cleaner/greener gas jug spouts your ilk forced upon us.
Your plastic, electric piece of crap wonder machine will do wonders until the morning comes when you wonder why it won't move because a mouse built a nest in your command console.
I have no qualms with the market deciding what is "better" even if I personally disagree. Looking at the truck/equipment world the market answered not just "no" but "heck no" with the DEF fiasco. Nothing to do with a market choice because choice was made illegal. Comply or do without. Great options.
There is a huge market for a simple and reliable machine to clip a few acres of pasture, plow the garden, and clear out the driveway after a snow. Those tasks don't require the expense to install and maintain GPS or a service link to worldwide HQ to monitor performance.
How is that different from yesterday when a mouse could chew off battery wires?  And don't get me wrong I agree with you on a desire for simple easy to use.  I just view anything ICE as not simple, not easy to use and very very inefficient.
Today cars work longer than ever.  Reliability increases every year vs something like washers where outsourcing to lowest cost producer seems to have created a landfill of junk.  
Somewhere inbetween there is the truth and what we need to shoot for as things go electric.  MA has a right to repair law that is the best in the US and I think it should be the model for a national law.  I think there should be right to repair on anything with a motor or a chip.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 03:42:09 PM
1.  Where the hell do my spaces always go?  I put in like 3 to 5 between every paragraph?


2.  What doc said 10,000 times.   Precisely that.  We are transitioning out of an american free market economy and into a chinese style planned market economy, not by accident.
Gremlins....they eat mine too
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 31, 2021, 03:48:27 PM
Wyatt we work fast around here.  Conception, prototype, and peer reviewed destructive testing have been completed. 

Hanky says EV equipment just isnt there yet. 




(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0131211431_Film3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612125242)


Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 03:51:06 PM
It seems that there are no new sources of energy yet to replace fossil fueled battery charging except nuclear. Solar would need even heavier subsidies than oil and of course at this point in time would rely on the oil industry for extraction and manufacturing and as was mentioned in another thread on solar, the plastic components breakdown quickly when exposed to sunlight.  
Maybe lunar panels?  :)
Solar is crushing fossil fuels.  Nuke is so uncompetitive that nobody seriously considers building without some incredible govt subsidies.  Big 0il was the second most subsidized industry in the US (behind big farm) and yet wall street has finally given up, S&P downgrading debt on all of them, share prices in freefall, writeoffs that would shock anyone.  Their cost of capital is going to soar just as demand crashes.  A big oil firm will declare bankruptcy within 7 years is my conservative prediction.  
So anyway, solar will power the USA, even the NE.  Wind will be significant but way behind solar.  My home systems will not only power our house but charge my vehicles.  I won't apply for any subsidies, just cash purchase and I will cut the cord.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 03:51:50 PM
Wyatt we work fast around here.  Conception, prototype, and peer reviewed destructive testing have been completed.

Hanky says EV equipment just isnt there yet.




(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0131211431_Film3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612125242)

Get him a SSN quick, put em to work!  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 03:54:58 PM
Since I've been working in a confined space with a skidsteer and 3 fans going, that battery bobcat isn't looking like a bad idea. There's a butt for every seat  :D. I think the main argument I'm hearing is we don't like "the end justifies the means" but rather it is easier to have the means justify the end. It is usually better to use the carrot rather than the stick.
I think a silent skidsteer would be lovely.  I am also hopefully they won't cost more and based on Cat's I've seen I don't see how they can't be more reliable than some (seems to me Cat designs new stuff to die at a certain point).  
I'm going to go follow Mikes link.  Thanks @mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722) 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on January 31, 2021, 03:56:41 PM
Year over year average wind speed on my farm is a whopping 3 MPH.  Winter sunny days are quite limited as it is the rainy season, and that's in southern Virginia.  No way solar is going to power Maine when the sun sets at 4:00 PM in the winter and it's -40°F 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on January 31, 2021, 04:00:23 PM
MA has a right to repair law that is the best in the US and I think it should be the model for a national law.  I think there should be right to repair on anything with a motor or a chip.  
Louis Rossmann has been to a lot of hearings in a number states trying to make that case, and has fell on deaf ears. But still continues on. I think it is absolute criminal that someone else is not allowed to fix your stuff. Otherwise it just drives the cost of repair through the roof and you toss it into the trash. A $50 repair will cost you $400+ on a lot of electronic stuff. It will bite them eventually, no one will want their stuff as bad as they think they do. The cards will collapse.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on January 31, 2021, 04:08:49 PM

Solar is crushing fossil fuels.  Nuke is so uncompetitive that nobody seriously considers building without some incredible govt subsidies.  Big 0il was the second most subsidized industry in the US (behind big farm) and yet wall street has finally given up, S&P downgrading debt on all of them, share prices in freefall, writeoffs that would shock anyone.  Their cost of capital is going to soar just as demand crashes.  A big oil firm will declare bankruptcy within 7 years is my conservative prediction.  
So anyway, solar will power the USA, even the NE.  Wind will be significant but way behind solar.  My home systems will not only power our house but charge my vehicles.  I won't apply for any subsidies, just cash purchase and I will cut the cord.
So how far along are you in your business and home as far as operating with no fossil fuels? 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 04:11:54 PM
Where does the energy come from to charge the batteries would be my first question and is it the most efficient use of energy? In our area of the world it's hydro electric in other areas it's coal/petroleum. What are the losses in conversion and does it make sense?


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10199/122432946_10221545457298968_864803920489650217_n~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612107043)

New power added in 2020 was as follows (Jan to Oct is all I have)- 
In megawatts:
Wind 6047
Nat Gas 6039
Solar 5430 (includes industrial and rooftop residential)
No new coal.  Coal is dying, even powerplants at coal mines are shutting down.  See the plant in MN as well as another in WY.  No oil in a while.
Good to see some progress.  Now you might ask how much of that is subsidized?  I'd fire back that it is less than oil/gas/coal.  Solar it almost doesn't matter and new plants are not counting on any.  Wind subsidies expired this past year.  The really big push in Wind in the USA will be offshore for the Great Lakes and northeast.  Onshore wind in OK, TX, KS and upper plains is also going to continue to grow.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on January 31, 2021, 04:12:02 PM
The Irvings are whining, we'll see on Monday. Might get 4 cents a litre increase. Already gas has gone up 12 cents in 2 weeks to $1.12 at the pump, come Monday expect $1.16 and no doubt by Thursday $1.20 Who decides what is enough? Irvings, and non-disclosure evidence to boot. :D

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/irving-oil-eub-price-increase-1.5894036
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on January 31, 2021, 04:17:41 PM

New power added in 2020 was as follows (Jan to Oct is all I have)-
In megawatts:
Wind 6047
Nat Gas 6039
Solar 5430 (includes industrial and rooftop residential)

Is this what you are producing personally? Well done if you are doing this already.(sorry I thought your post was in response to my question to your personal power generation and was thinking kilowatt hours)

The typical US home uses about 7,200 kilowatt-hours of electricity each year.
I would file natural gas under the fossil fuel category

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on January 31, 2021, 04:26:35 PM
Nuclear is not totally reliable, it hasn't been here in New Brunswick for decades. And now more troubles=more costs. Fossil fuel cost to generate is 19 x more expensive than nuclear, when things run right. ;)

Reliability problem resurfaces at Point Lepreau nuclear plant | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/lepreau-nbpower-nuclear-plant-1.5890989)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on January 31, 2021, 04:32:44 PM
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) 
Those same wind mills that are in the Columbia River Gorge that have to be turned off more then they’re on running? Out here we have hydro power but they keep wanting to rip out which will be a disaster for most communities. Good question what happens in a situation like Paradise California or here the PNW last summer where the power is cut and you need to leave in a seconds notice?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Andries on January 31, 2021, 04:34:43 PM
Paul: 
Mr Wolf's numbers were mega-watts. 
Your number is kilo-watts.
There's a big difference 😉
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on January 31, 2021, 04:37:11 PM
Yes, I corrected that ,I thought he had responded to my question on home generation and was thinking kilowatt hours  :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Andries on January 31, 2021, 04:48:15 PM
Ahhh, gotcha.
👍
I have to say, this thread is a breath of fresh air. People bickering in a decent, constructive way on a topic that's central to all of us.
Maybe I've spent to much time reading the Trump thread in the Restricted area.
.
Thanks Mike Belben and Native Wolf - keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on January 31, 2021, 05:02:13 PM
Good to see some progress.  Now you might ask how much of that is subsidized?  I'd fire back that it is less than oil/gas/coal.  Solar it almost doesn't matter and new plants are not counting on any.  Wind subsidies expired this past year. 


That is not accurate.  The Dominion off shore plant here in Virginia is massively subsidized by the rate payer, with a GUARANTEED 30% capital return per the legislature, that is a subsidy by any other name.  Mandate the method of power generation, allow only one producer, and write in their profit.  Maybe you are right, it's not subsidized, it's rigged.    
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on January 31, 2021, 05:29:27 PM
John Kerry family private jet emitted estimated 116 metric tons of carbon over past year     

               Remember that the next time you put some Heinz ketchup on your burger 🍔😂😂
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Runningalucas on January 31, 2021, 05:31:36 PM
I'm seeing people in this thread confuse electronics, with electric/electrical apparatus.  My problem with big tech/high tech, is that it's always controlled through a chip.  Most can muddle through electrical problems, while most cannot muddle through electronics.

The history of our world is debatable on many fronts, but there's a fine thread from civilization to civilization; they reach so high, they forget their base.  Most people have 'some' intelligence, and most people have a 'single' discipline.  The more 'advanced' we become, the more specialized anyone's technical knowledge will be, and broader knowledge, 'common sense', or knowledge will become less; we become 'components' in a single machine vulnerable at so many fronts.  When the 'body' of anything, grows out of disproportion in any way, it makes collapse, and ruination easier.

Also, with automation comes complacency, where by people grow lazy, and a lack of 'know how' is fostered, nurtured, until helplessness.

We're seeing it now.  People don't know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle anymore; it's even joked that it's a form of theft deterrent. 

It can be applied another way, look at a child from the city, and a child raised on a farm, ranch, or just out in the stix.  Follow these kids through college, they both get the same degree.... The child from the city, where the advances from automation are the highest, will only have the skill set provided by their education, juxtaposed to the other child, who'll not only have that educated skill set, but 9 out of 10 times will have a wealth of 'how to' knowledge; not to mention highly honed critical thinking skills, and common sense.

It really seems the real debate here is of what makes a 'good society', and what that is.  My thought of a good society,  one that can last, and exist in a non impactful way, where stewardship of our Earth is at the core, wouldn't be too hard to obtain, and it wouldn't take much beyond outlawing the corporate practice of planned obsolescence, as well as discourage consumerism as it stands now: buy, use, break, throwaway, rinse wash repeat.

If we had things that could last, like they should, and we encouraged the idea of long term repair, or rebuild over new, new, new.  That alone would make a tremendous difference in our pollution; which is where much of this argument is created from.

A simple example, I drive an older 92' ford truck.  It's got the old IDI N/A engine, and I joined a forum for it.  In that forum, I've found a wealth of micro niche companies, serving varying aspects of older Fords, and diesels.  I've already upgraded the engine with a turbo, and next am looking at an 'rv' style cam grind, intercooling, pump, and some other ins, and outs.  It still get's 18mpg, and I think my rwhp is around 200hp now. 

After I get the engine stuff done, I plan on doing a custom interior set up similar to how a larger class 8 rig is done.  From there, I'm going to suspension, and then bed.  It's a long term plan.  I plan to own this truck for as long as the govt will let me run it down the road, that or god. I'm prepared, and plan to invest in it to make it a nice, comfortable, and usable ride; perpetually.  In the end, it'll cost some money, but not what other are having to pay every 5 to 10 years when they buy new.  It's just a shift of thinking. Also instead of supporting 'to big to fail' companies, I'm supporting again micro niche mom, and pops; the whole while, my life is improving in knowledge, and know how on what i own.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on January 31, 2021, 05:40:28 PM
Quote
Those same wind mills that are in the Columbia River Gorge that have to be turned off more then they’re on running?
Have to pick the right spot for wind turbines for sure. The wind farms here in NZ run around 45% of their max generation, and days when they aren't running at all is very rare.
 
Southside's farm with it's 3mph wind would NOT be a good place for a wind farm. The new site about 45 mins South of here has an average wind speed of over 19 mph, and the turbines there should get ~4,000 hours a year at max load, or about 11 hours per day.  Maybe 10 days a year when it's too calm to spin them? 
The problem with wind and solar is that you need backup or energy storage because it's unreliable. You can work out the average generation for the year, but on a calm night, they are going to be zero. Fortunately NZ has a lot of hydro, which can store energy (water) and cope with peak and changing loads pretty well. Individual turbines can be stopped in started in minutes. A Coal station takes hours to run up, and nuclear can be days. 
None of the new power generation being built here is subsidised. But economies of scale come in. The new wind turbines aren't cheap, but they can make over 4 mW, and should average 2mW over the year. (x 31 generators)  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on January 31, 2021, 05:44:58 PM
General Motors says there goal is to offer only electric vehicles only 2035. Seems like a tall task in that time frame 🙄
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on January 31, 2021, 05:49:34 PM
The wind turbines do take a toll on feathered friends. That’s a fact
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on January 31, 2021, 05:51:45 PM
General Motors says there goal is to offer only electric vehicles only 2035. Seems like a tall task in that time frame 🙄
From memory that’s just passenger cars/suv it doesn’t include medium or heavy duty.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on January 31, 2021, 05:55:20 PM
Quote
Those same wind mills that are in the Columbia River Gorge that have to be turned off more then they’re on running?
Have to pick the right spot for wind turbines for sure. The wind farms here in NZ run around 45% of their max generation, and days when they aren't running at all is very rare.
 
Southside's farm with it's 3mph wind would NOT be a good place for a wind farm. The new site about 45 mins South of here has an average wind speed of over 19 mph, and the turbines there should get ~4,000 hours a year at max load, or about 11 hours per day.  Maybe 10 days a year when it's too calm to spin them?
The problem with wind and solar is that you need backup or energy storage because it's unreliable. You can work out the average generation for the year, but on a calm night, they are going to be zero. Fortunately NZ has a lot of hydro, which can store energy (water) and cope with peak and changing loads pretty well. Individual turbines can be stopped in started in minutes. A Coal station takes hours to run up, and nuclear can be days.
None of the new power generation being built here is subsidised. But economies of scale come in. The new wind turbines aren't cheap, but they can make over 4 mW, and should average 2mW over the year. (x 31 generators)  
The biggest problem they have in the Columbia River Gorge is it gusts a lot, it may have a sustained wind of 35 mph but gusts of 75 mph daily. Where we are in the PNW solar doesn’t work west of cascades we spend a good share of the year under the clouds raining.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on January 31, 2021, 06:11:23 PM
as well as discourage consumerism as it stands now: buy, use, break, throwaway, rinse wash repeat.


That's my problem with current electric vehicles. It's uneconomic to replace the battery packs. Unless that gets solved, most of them will be scrapped as the range gets too short. 

We usually buy vehicles ~10 years old, no way I'd touch any  current electric vehicle of that age, and I can't afford a new Tesla etc. Govt here have indicated they want to stop the sale of gas powered cars in 2032. I'm not really anti that, but the battery replacement issue needs to be sorted by then. (Longer life or cheaper replacement?) Otherwise those Teslas and Leafs are going in the landfill with the IPhones.... 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on January 31, 2021, 06:12:47 PM
Where does the energy come from to charge the batteries would be my first question and is it the most efficient use of energy? In our area of the world it's hydro electric in other areas it's coal/petroleum. What are the losses in conversion and does it make sense?


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10199/122432946_10221545457298968_864803920489650217_n~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612107043)

New power added in 2020 was as follows (Jan to Oct is all I have)-
In megawatts:
Wind 6047
Nat Gas 6039
Solar 5430 (includes industrial and rooftop residential)
No new coal.  Coal is dying, even powerplants at coal mines are shutting down.  See the plant in MN as well as another in WY.  No oil in a while.
Good to see some progress.  Now you might ask how much of that is subsidized?  I'd fire back that it is less than oil/gas/coal.  Solar it almost doesn't matter and new plants are not counting on any.  Wind subsidies expired this past year.  The really big push in Wind in the USA will be offshore for the Great Lakes and northeast.  Onshore wind in OK, TX, KS and upper plains is also going to continue to grow.  
And just how much have fossil fuels been taxed and regulated out of being competitive? Just curious how long it will before some moron declares massive windfarms are slowing the revolution of the earth and we have scrap them too? 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on January 31, 2021, 06:20:48 PM
as well as discourage consumerism as it stands now: buy, use, break, throwaway, rinse wash repeat.


That's my problem with current electric vehicles. It's uneconomic to replace the battery packs. Unless that gets solved, most of them will be scrapped as the range gets too short.

We usually buy vehicles ~10 years old, no way I'd touch any  current electric vehicle of that age, and I can't afford a new Tesla etc. Govt here have indicated they want to stop the sale of gas powered cars in 2032. I'm not really anti that, but the battery replacement issue needs to be sorted by then. (Longer life or cheaper replacement?) Otherwise those Teslas and Leafs are going in the landfill with the IPhones....
We are outlawing and abandoning stuff we have not developed a viable replacement for. Yeah that is some real forward thinking right there.
The day will come when peasants come with pitchforks.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on January 31, 2021, 06:22:43 PM
The wind turbines do take a toll on feathered friends. That’s a fact
May depend on location, size, local birds. 
The new ones here are 90ft to the lowest point of the blades. Most of the local birds don't fly very high (Some don't fly at all), so it hasn't been a big issue. YMMV

Quote
The biggest problem they have in the Columbia River Gorge is it gusts a lot, it may have a sustained wind of 35 mph but gusts of 75 mph daily. Where we are in the PNW solar doesn’t work west of cascades we spend a good share of the year under the clouds raining.
Understood, they need a fairly steady wind to operate properly. The better sites here overlook the open ocean and prevailing wind. So less gusting and more steady. Solar isn't that big here either, same reason as PNW. But plenty of rain for the hydros  ;)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 06:31:12 PM
well I'd say that again, fossil fuels are subsidized to the nth degree.  EV's are already taxed pretty high in some states and I'm sure it will only grow, and rightfully so.

In terms of power generation, it is solar and wind.  No question, take it to the bank.  Done.  

Battery advances are here, factories are being built.  That is the only holdup right now to moving to 100 renewable grid.  

Then the market will have solved the USA's climate challenge without any terrible disruption to society.  No famine, no hinderance to transportation, power systems, etc.  Things change, sure.  That's pretty much our constant.  That's ok too.  I'm not looking back with fondness on my 70 year old typewriter wishing more people used them.  Transitioning to computers scared the heck out of a lot of people but they were trained, 20 years after Apple kicked off the PC revolution nobody was scared and my grandfather was typing on a mac.  

There is a massive illiteracy today with many young people still not knowing how to program in any language, they don't understand semi conductors, etc.  There is not need for this to be scary to anyone, it's not that hard.  

In every tesla Over The Air update you can watch the source code change.  Savvy watchers know what teslas releasing in the future because source code reveals increase battery size for instance, or faster charging, or adaptive suspension, etc.  Its sad so few kids can do so and a shame so many who can move to California.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: snowstorm on January 31, 2021, 06:32:39 PM

Solar is crushing fossil fuels.  Nuke is so uncompetitive that nobody seriously considers building without some incredible govt subsidies.  Big 0il was the second most subsidized industry in the US (behind big farm) and yet wall street has finally given up, S&P downgrading debt on all of them, share prices in freefall, writeoffs that would shock anyone.  Their cost of capital is going to soar just as demand crashes.  A big oil firm will declare bankruptcy within 7 years is my conservative prediction.  
So anyway, solar will power the USA, even the NE.  Wind will be significant but way behind solar.  My home systems will not only power our house but charge my vehicles.  I won't apply for any subsidies, just cash purchase and I will cut the cord.
i dont believe you or it. looks like you do. my question is how much money are you willing to take out of your pocket to save all of us? and why do you not have the logset hybrid harvester?? and are you still driving that deleted 6.4??  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 06:33:30 PM
as well as discourage consumerism as it stands now: buy, use, break, throwaway, rinse wash repeat.


That's my problem with current electric vehicles. It's uneconomic to replace the battery packs. Unless that gets solved, most of them will be scrapped as the range gets too short.

We usually buy vehicles ~10 years old, no way I'd touch any  current electric vehicle of that age, and I can't afford a new Tesla etc. Govt here have indicated they want to stop the sale of gas powered cars in 2032. I'm not really anti that, but the battery replacement issue needs to be sorted by then. (Longer life or cheaper replacement?) Otherwise those Teslas and Leafs are going in the landfill with the IPhones....
They'll have a $25k USD car in 4 years, a bit long but that's getting closer to affordable for many.  Then the tesla robo taxi fleets are coming that will allow many people to not have cars.  That might be a few years away, hopefully before my eyesight starts slipping.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 06:34:26 PM
I'm seeing people in this thread confuse electronics, with electric/electrical apparatus.  My problem with big tech/high tech, is that it's always controlled through a chip.  Most can muddle through electrical problems, while most cannot muddle through electronics.

The history of our world is debatable on many fronts, but there's a fine thread from civilization to civilization; they reach so high, they forget their base.  Most people have 'some' intelligence, and most people have a 'single' discipline.  The more 'advanced' we become, the more specialized anyone's technical knowledge will be, and broader knowledge, 'common sense', or knowledge will become less; we become 'components' in a single machine vulnerable at so many fronts.  When the 'body' of anything, grows out of disproportion in any way, it makes collapse, and ruination easier.

Also, with automation comes complacency, where by people grow lazy, and a lack of 'know how' is fostered, nurtured, until helplessness.

We're seeing it now.  People don't know how to drive a manual transmission vehicle anymore; it's even joked that it's a form of theft deterrent.  

It can be applied another way, look at a child from the city, and a child raised on a farm, ranch, or just out in the stix.  Follow these kids through college, they both get the same degree.... The child from the city, where the advances from automation are the highest, will only have the skill set provided by their education, juxtaposed to the other child, who'll not only have that educated skill set, but 9 out of 10 times will have a wealth of 'how to' knowledge; not to mention highly honed critical thinking skills, and common sense.

It really seems the real debate here is of what makes a 'good society', and what that is.  My thought of a good society,  one that can last, and exist in a non impactful way, where stewardship of our Earth is at the core, wouldn't be too hard to obtain, and it wouldn't take much beyond outlawing the corporate practice of planned obsolescence, as well as discourage consumerism as it stands now: buy, use, break, throwaway, rinse wash repeat.

If we had things that could last, like they should, and we encouraged the idea of long term repair, or rebuild over new, new, new.  That alone would make a tremendous difference in our pollution; which is where much of this argument is created from.

A simple example, I drive an older 92' ford truck.  It's got the old IDI N/A engine, and I joined a forum for it.  In that forum, I've found a wealth of micro niche companies, serving varying aspects of older Fords, and diesels.  I've already upgraded the engine with a turbo, and next am looking at an 'rv' style cam grind, intercooling, pump, and some other ins, and outs.  It still get's 18mpg, and I think my rwhp is around 200hp now.  

After I get the engine stuff done, I plan on doing a custom interior set up similar to how a larger class 8 rig is done.  From there, I'm going to suspension, and then bed.  It's a long term plan.  I plan to own this truck for as long as the govt will let me run it down the road, that or god. I'm prepared, and plan to invest in it to make it a nice, comfortable, and usable ride; perpetually.  In the end, it'll cost some money, but not what other are having to pay every 5 to 10 years when they buy new.  It's just a shift of thinking. Also instead of supporting 'to big to fail' companies, I'm supporting again micro niche mom, and pops; the whole while, my life is improving in knowledge, and know how on what i own.
Sounds like a neat project!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on January 31, 2021, 06:51:19 PM
 Its sad so few kids can do so and a shame so many who can move to California.
I wish all the eco idiots would move to California and secede. We all would be better off.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on January 31, 2021, 06:52:10 PM
I grew up hearing about solar panels and wind power and still dream about building a off grid system one day. My uncle had a cabin on a lake with a creek up behind it and my cousin Terry built a turbine and powered the cabin with lights and some plugs and they had running water into the house-quiet, clean and practical low cost and easy to build and install. I've seen many successful small scale hydro electric around here and creeks are plentiful.
If we had decent wind around here I would have already built or purchased a system but our wind comes up the hill in the morning and down at night. I don't mind doing the research and taking the time to build.
My dad heats his pool 4.5 months a year with solar for 45 years and it works very well for that but there are not many operating solar panels for power generation for home and farm although an older swiss couple had a system put in two years ago and it's success depends on who you talk to, them or their daughter and son inlaw. I have quizzed them because it's interesting and if it made sense we would do the same.
When I see people laying down their own money and time for their beliefs I stand at attention but when they want money up front from others it's disheartening. We have always embraced technologies that make sense or sell themselves such as automobiles, flight electric lights computers and cell phones but if government has to force it upon us then suspicion is raised. 
As Ian said energy storage is a huge bugaboo that needs to be resolved before wind and solar take off
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 06:56:21 PM

Solar is crushing fossil fuels.  Nuke is so uncompetitive that nobody seriously considers building without some incredible govt subsidies.  Big 0il was the second most subsidized industry in the US (behind big farm) and yet wall street has finally given up, S&P downgrading debt on all of them, share prices in freefall, writeoffs that would shock anyone.  Their cost of capital is going to soar just as demand crashes.  A big oil firm will declare bankruptcy within 7 years is my conservative prediction.  
So anyway, solar will power the USA, even the NE.  Wind will be significant but way behind solar.  My home systems will not only power our house but charge my vehicles.  I won't apply for any subsidies, just cash purchase and I will cut the cord.
i dont believe you or it. looks like you do. my question is how much money are you willing to take out of your pocket to save all of us? and why do you not have the logset hybrid harvester?? and are you still driving that deleted 6.4??  
Well the neat thing is we'll all find out who's right and wrong in a few years.  We can grab an iced tea at the pigpicken and laugh or cry about it.  


I am still driving the 6.4.  Course that year I was poor as a church mouse my van died and I bought it at an auction without knowing it was deleted but figuring it was ok if it got to 260k miles as a 6.4, shortly thereafter I realized it was prob deleted and I'm ok with that.  It had 260k miles and no AC so it was cheap.  My first diesel pickup, what did I know :-[ and it was a low entry point.  We have reservations on a cybertruck (2), can't wait.  Stainless steel body the stupid cows can't wreck.  But it will be 3 years, I won't miss the diesel pickup but it served it's purpose.  We'll scrap it as soon as the new truck arrives.  


Hybrids are, to my mind, the worst of both worlds.  All the complexity of an ICE and few benefits of an EV. The prius is a fine car but Toyota really blew it not making a great EV. A hybrid processor?  Didn't know they exist but I also couldn't afford it to be honest.  I'm not making much money, doing great forestry....not making much money.  When we can afford a used harvester we'll get one that we can pay off in 1 year.  So right now we just throw nickles in the piggy bank.  I enjoy seeing the changes coming at us, I've been watching it for 20 years and now we are at the hockey stick curve.  Things that have always been unobtainable  (solar, cord cutting, and an EV) are now within reach for me.  I think if I were the biden administration I'd relax emissions for diesels (not gas, I'd tighten those), they don't work and they are stupid.  I'd ramp up incentives to move to EVs for 3 years to help car companies pay for battery factories.  At some point the vast majority of new buyers will buy EVs and used EVs will be cheap and available.  Problem solved and nobody forced to do anything.  


The reason I won't take subsidies is it might limit me from cord cutting and the finance costs are below cost of savings so the business case is good.  Have you guys priced solar recently?  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on January 31, 2021, 07:13:29 PM
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089)
Those same wind mills that are in the Columbia River Gorge that have to be turned off more then they’re on running? Out here we have hydro power but they keep wanting to rip out which will be a disaster for most communities. Good question what happens in a situation like Paradise California or here the PNW last summer where the power is cut and you need to leave in a seconds notice?
Bumping this up at the end is a great question for you pro electric guys and a great reason it will never work.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on January 31, 2021, 07:16:57 PM
Solar panels are getting cheap. Batteries are not and you can drain in 30 minutes what it took you half a day to store.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 31, 2021, 07:43:39 PM
Boom.  


I havent met a battery yet that doesnt boil or explode when charged too rapidly.  The torque required to move a 10ton plus machine up a slope with a tree behind it is insane to get out of an electrical storage.  Even if you could the discharge rate is massive.  The voltage will have to be extremely high and battery capable of deep deep discharge without sustaining sulfation damage. Im talkin Lethal high voltage to get the wires down to affordable size that will carry the current to make the horsetorques that the job takes..  Youre talking about arc flash risks just getting too close with a screwdriver.



Diesel needs to be unobtainable for electric to replace it.  And if the price gets high enough then the corn farms will just sell to the vegetable oil fuel buyer.  I can convert any old diesel to run on straight grease.. Or render out the glycerin to run in any unmodified diesel.  



For a climate crisis that half of us arent convinced even exists.  If the "scientists" were trying to solve this issue for real they be subsidizing vegetable based diesel vut they arent.  Youll get a fat fine running wvo and go ahead and call your state.. See if there is a way you can voluntarily pay the road tax or enter the ifta program on homemade fuel.  2 states ive lived in said newp.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: snowstorm on January 31, 2021, 07:50:53 PM
Boom.  


I havent met a battery yet that doesnt boil or explode when charged too rapidly.  The torque required to move a 10ton plus machine up a slope with a tree behind it is insane to get out of an electrical storage.  Even if you could the discharge rate is massive.  The voltage will have to be extremely high and battery capable of deep deep discharge without sustaining sulfation damage. Im talkin Lethal high voltage to get the wires down to affordable size that will carry the current to make the horsetorques that the job takes..  Youre talking about arc flash risks just getting too close with a screwdriver.



Diesel needs to be unobtainable for electric to replace it.  And if the price gets high enough then the corn farms will just sell to the vegetable oil fuel buyer.  I can convert any old diesel to run on straight grease.. Or render out the glycerin to run in any unmodified diesel.  



For a climate crisis that half of us arent convinced even exists.  If the "scientists" were trying to solve this issue for real they be subsidizing vegetable based diesel vut they arent.  Youll get a fat fine running wvo and go ahead and call your state.. See if there is a way you can voluntarily pay the road tax or enter the ifta program on homemade fuel.  2 states ive lived in said newp.
this may be the first time but i agree with you 100%. its all about power and control
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: snowstorm on January 31, 2021, 07:56:52 PM
what i want to know is where all the power is going to come from to recharge all the battery cars. from what i see everything but wind and solar is bad gonna take a lot of them. every newer class 5 and up diesel has a sticker on it that says certified clean idle it pollutes very little 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on January 31, 2021, 08:17:27 PM
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089)
Those same wind mills that are in the Columbia River Gorge that have to be turned off more then they’re on running? Out here we have hydro power but they keep wanting to rip out which will be a disaster for most communities. Good question what happens in a situation like Paradise California or here the PNW last summer where the power is cut and you need to leave in a seconds notice?
Bumping this up at the end is a great question for you pro electric guys and a great reason it will never work.
That is actually a great question.  And I'm no expert on the PNW but I would expect that new wind generation would be able to run longer. I would think though that the sun in eastern OR would power a lot of homes.  Or is in some ways very lucky with the deep hydro, great wind, huge solar potential in the east.  Hydro issues get close to so many conflicting challenges, salmon, irrigation, power, native tribe rights, broken promises all round everywhere.  I get only some of the complexity there, sure I am missing quite a bit.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on January 31, 2021, 09:17:30 PM
Eastern OR is getting polluted with solar farms, and yes they are subsidized massively - I have family that has been approached several times over the last year or so to lease out ranch land.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 31, 2021, 09:22:49 PM
So is mass.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 31, 2021, 09:23:49 PM
this may be the first time but i agree with you 100%. its all about power and control
LOL.  Yer alright snowstorm.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on January 31, 2021, 09:46:41 PM
We couldn't fly either, time will tell.
Uhh Mike, if you need another 5 wheel gator for the project come pull it outta the weeds.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on January 31, 2021, 09:48:30 PM
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089)
Those same wind mills that are in the Columbia River Gorge that have to be turned off more then they’re on running? Out here we have hydro power but they keep wanting to rip out which will be a disaster for most communities. Good question what happens in a situation like Paradise California or here the PNW last summer where the power is cut and you need to leave in a seconds notice?
Bumping this up at the end is a great question for you pro electric guys and a great reason it will never work.
That is actually a great question.  And I'm no expert on the PNW but I would expect that new wind generation would be able to run longer. I would think though that the sun in eastern OR would power a lot of homes.  Or is in some ways very lucky with the deep hydro, great wind, huge solar potential in the east.  Hydro issues get close to so many conflicting challenges, salmon, irrigation, power, native tribe rights, broken promises all round everywhere.  I get only some of the complexity there, sure I am missing quite a bit.  
You still missed the biggest question of them all if there’s a natural disaster such as a fire or wind event there’s no electricity it’s all cut. So if all of this cut for same a week how are you supposed to get out of harms way? The electric car is one of the unsafest thing to be invented for this reason exactly.
To eastern Oregon there’s two I know of and they haven’t made a dime other then it allows cities here buy a credit for feel good.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on January 31, 2021, 10:00:20 PM
We couldn't fly either, time will tell.
Uhh Mike, if you need another 5 wheel gator for the project come pull it outta the weeds.
Well you really know how to sweet talk a stay at home mom there doncha don?  
I may take you up on that. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on January 31, 2021, 10:41:18 PM
Just post pics when you're done.
Just before WWI about a third of passenger autos were electric. Batteries were and are the problem but they have certainly gotten better and will continue to do so. We took one path but there are others. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Runningalucas on February 01, 2021, 12:44:53 AM




For a climate crisis that half of us arent convinced even exists.  If the "scientists" were trying to solve this issue for real they be subsidizing vegetable based diesel vut they arent.  Youll get a fat fine running wvo and go ahead and call your state.. See if there is a way you can voluntarily pay the road tax or enter the ifta program on homemade fuel.  2 states ive lived in said newp.
Regarding the above; I never went out looking to disprove 'global warming', but was only looking for information on my property's geology(rocky mountains near Canada).  In reading several university geology dept published findings, we actually are in the middle of an ice age now; the 4th to be exact, called the Quaternary Period.  The demarcation between the earlier 3 periods, is a completely ice free Earth.  In each of these 4 periods, are smaller 'interglacial periods' which we are currently living in one, in the Quaternary Period...  

There have been warmer interglacial periods, with much higher levels of Co2 than our current interglacial period that geologists can, and have tracked.  
Aside from the above, just a thought, the more we move towards an electronic, and 'coded' future, it will steer us into an even greater consolidation of power.  Only those at the top of that consolidation will have power; the rest of us will be on a continual reactionary hamster wheel.  We're already living in that change now.

EDIT TO ADD:

The dark side of ?green energy? and its threat to the environment - Deseret News (https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/1/30/22249311/why-green-energy-isnt-so-green-and-poses-harm-to-the-environment-hazardous-waste-utah-china-solar)

Quote:

"The issue foreshadows the potential for the creation of a new class of hazardous waste sites under EPA Superfund designations as clean energy operators walk away from a large volume of materials that contaminate the soil and groundwater.
“It is foreseeable that the same kind of practices could occur with respect to (solar) panels in the absence of very effective programs for the collecting and recycling of PV panels available where PV panels are used,” the paper said."

The dark side of ?green energy? and its threat to the environment - Deseret News (https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/1/30/22249311/why-green-energy-isnt-so-green-and-poses-harm-to-the-environment-hazardous-waste-utah-china-solar)  Less than 50%
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 07:24:54 AM
Just post pics when you're done.
Just before WWI about a third of passenger autos were electric. Batteries were and are the problem but they have certainly gotten better and will continue to do so. We took one path but there are others.


Yup, I don't get the hangup on petro byproducts personally.  It was a blip, it will pass.  The'll be something new and it is happening today.  Tomorrow could be a new new.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 07:43:02 AM
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089)
Those same wind mills that are in the Columbia River Gorge that have to be turned off more then they’re on running? Out here we have hydro power but they keep wanting to rip out which will be a disaster for most communities. Good question what happens in a situation like Paradise California or here the PNW last summer where the power is cut and you need to leave in a seconds notice?
Bumping this up at the end is a great question for you pro electric guys and a great reason it will never work.
That is actually a great question.  And I'm no expert on the PNW but I would expect that new wind generation would be able to run longer. I would think though that the sun in eastern OR would power a lot of homes.  Or is in some ways very lucky with the deep hydro, great wind, huge solar potential in the east.  Hydro issues get close to so many conflicting challenges, salmon, irrigation, power, native tribe rights, broken promises all round everywhere.  I get only some of the complexity there, sure I am missing quite a bit.  
You still missed the biggest question of them all if there’s a natural disaster such as a fire or wind event there’s no electricity it’s all cut. So if all of this cut for same a week how are you supposed to get out of harms way? The electric car is one of the unsafest thing to be invented for this reason exactly.
To eastern Oregon there’s two I know of and they haven’t made a dime other then it allows cities here buy a credit for feel good.
I guess I don't get the big question?  What's different if a solar farm is making the power or a coal plant?  How does that impact getting out of the way?   Or do you mean electricity is out and EVs can charge?  To answer that I'd say go look at Florida or Houston in the hurricanes and see how the ICE fleet did getting out of the way vs EVs?  There's nothing special or constraining about an EV vs an ICE.  They both flood just fine. EVs crawling in traffic basically does not use power so in that regard it has a huge advantage over an ICE.  At a crawl the EV range is extended dramatically, no wind friction.  They all catch on fire, just ICE catch on fire more often.  They both get in wrecks, just ICEs get in more and are more dangerous.   
Re solar farms...ok so they built subsidized solar farms and they don't make money?  I understand that solar farm lease rates are booming out there so I don't see what the hangup is.  If someone is offering money you can take it or not.  The subsidies are falling all over the US as the farms get built and at least here in VA they don't count for much but if you are leasing the farm out that's not even your problem is it?  Nat gas peaker plants have been failing all over TX and going bankrupt.  That's the market talking.  Wind is super cheap at night and solar is soaring and now many old power plants are not competitive.  Let the market play out and remove all the subsidies and get the govt out of energy business is what I'd say.  
Batteries to flex storage of juice is the problem for renewables.  It's the one hurdle remaining.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 07:43:42 AM
Eastern OR is getting polluted with solar farms, and yes they are subsidized massively - I have family that has been approached several times over the last year or so to lease out ranch land.  
Polluted with solar farms :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 01, 2021, 08:08:33 AM
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089)
Those same wind mills that are in the Columbia River Gorge that have to be turned off more then they’re on running? Out here we have hydro power but they keep wanting to rip out which will be a disaster for most communities. Good question what happens in a situation like Paradise California or here the PNW last summer where the power is cut and you need to leave in a seconds notice?
Bumping this up at the end is a great question for you pro electric guys and a great reason it will never work.
That is actually a great question.  And I'm no expert on the PNW but I would expect that new wind generation would be able to run longer. I would think though that the sun in eastern OR would power a lot of homes.  Or is in some ways very lucky with the deep hydro, great wind, huge solar potential in the east.  Hydro issues get close to so many conflicting challenges, salmon, irrigation, power, native tribe rights, broken promises all round everywhere.  I get only some of the complexity there, sure I am missing quite a bit.  
You still missed the biggest question of them all if there’s a natural disaster such as a fire or wind event there’s no electricity it’s all cut. So if all of this cut for same a week how are you supposed to get out of harms way? The electric car is one of the unsafest thing to be invented for this reason exactly.
To eastern Oregon there’s two I know of and they haven’t made a dime other then it allows cities here buy a credit for feel good.
I guess I don't get the big question?  What's different if a solar farm is making the power or a coal plant?  How does that impact getting out of the way?   Or do you mean electricity is out and EVs can charge?  To answer that I'd say go look at Florida or Houston in the hurricanes and see how the ICE fleet did getting out of the way vs EVs?  There's nothing special or constraining about an EV vs an ICE.  They both flood just fine. EVs crawling in traffic basically does not use power so in that regard it has a huge advantage over an ICE.  At a crawl the EV range is extended dramatically, no wind friction.  They all catch on fire, just ICE catch on fire more often.  They both get in wrecks, just ICEs get in more and are more dangerous.  
Re solar farms...ok so they built subsidized solar farms and they don't make money?  I understand that solar farm lease rates are booming out there so I don't see what the hangup is.  If someone is offering money you can take it or not.  The subsidies are falling all over the US as the farms get built and at least here in VA they don't count for much but if you are leasing the farm out that's not even your problem is it?  Nat gas peaker plants have been failing all over TX and going bankrupt.  That's the market talking.  Wind is super cheap at night and solar is soaring and now many old power plants are not competitive.  Let the market play out and remove all the subsidies and get the govt out of energy business is what I'd say.  
Batteries to flex storage of juice is the problem for renewables.  It's the one hurdle remaining.
If you have a disaster like here in the PNW or Paradise California guess what happens all power is turned off, with an electric vehicle what do you do when you get that leave order? 
A little background on those most of those areas had the power turned off before people got home that day the Lionshead fire rolled through.
 
If you really running a combustion engine is such a problem in your book why not setup a steam donkey with cable vs that Ponsse forwarder. You wouldn’t have diesel, you wouldn’t have hydraulic oil, and you wouldn’t have gear lube. Before you say I don’t like advancements I love tech I do a ton of 3D drafting and printing making stuff I can no longer get or making better then the original and that is all electric but for something in the woods or on the road it’s a deadly combo.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 01, 2021, 08:12:40 AM
Eastern OR is getting polluted with solar farms, and yes they are subsidized massively - I have family that has been approached several times over the last year or so to lease out ranch land.  
Polluted with solar farms :D
That is the perfect word for it we need to clear cut an area or take up good working ground for what a some solar panels? Here in Oregon you’re seeing push back from people in the rural areas we’re tired of our ground being used for these city projects. There was a great radio commercial on well we were over in Bend this fall that said keep your Portland -_-_ in Portland it doesn’t belong here. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 08:19:05 AM
Eastern OR is getting polluted with solar farms, and yes they are subsidized massively - I have family that has been approached several times over the last year or so to lease out ranch land.  
Polluted with solar farms :D
That is the perfect word for it we need to clear cut an area or take up good working ground for what a some solar panels? Here in Oregon you’re seeing push back from people in the rural areas we’re tired of our ground being used for these city projects. There was a great radio commercial on well we were over in Bend this fall that said keep your Portland -_-_ in Portland it doesn’t belong here.
So if I can get this straight....you have some people leasing land and others trying to tell them what to do with their land?  And who is the problem?  I thought you didn't like someone telling them what to do ?  I've got neighbors to our harvest sites that want to tell us how and when to cut.  To heck with them.  If a person wants to lease land and someone else pays...what is the issue?  Looks like a property rights issue and someone can't pay or doesn't like the change and wants to dictate how others can make money.  To heck with them.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 01, 2021, 08:31:15 AM
the joke in Ks, is that it is windy due to all those big fans.  The landscape for those of you that enjoy nature, is certainly changing.  you may think a big white fan is great to look at.  The concern is if the locals push to not have so many, that the government will impose "eminent domain" since now climate is deemed an emergency.  we also have oil wells, but they are smaller, and the rust color blends with our landscape.  often 80% of the wind turbines are not turning.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 01, 2021, 09:33:31 AM



Yup, I don't get the hangup on petro byproducts personally.  It was a blip, it will pass.  The'll be something new and it is happening today.  Tomorrow could be a new new.
That statement will have more meaning once you've unplugged from petrol but as near as I can tell you are burning as much as anybody. I will say that it will be a pleasure to congratulate you when you switch over but until then it's pie in the sky.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 09:40:35 AM
the joke in Ks, is that it is windy due to all those big fans.  The landscape for those of you that enjoy nature, is certainly changing.  you may think a big white fan is great to look at.  The concern is if the locals push to not have so many, that the government will impose "eminent domain" since now climate is deemed an emergency.  we also have oil wells, but they are smaller, and the rust color blends with our landscape.  often 80% of the wind turbines are not turning.
I'm sympathetic to a degree re visibility.  But again, if someone sold them the land for windmills then someone puts up a windmill.  If they don't want windmills close to them then they should buy the rights.  It is a really simple property rights argument.   How are they going to feel if a walmart distribution center plunks down there? Or a subdivision?   I actually find the windmills mesmerizing but I don't live next to them so my opinion might shift if I did.  I like to see a nice clearcut and have one on my farm.  My neighbors hate it.  But it is my farm and they could have bought it if they didn't want me cutting trees.  
The govt uses eminent domain all the time to take land for gas pipelines and oil projects but I don't foresee this happening with wind.  I could clearly see state rules that keep local govts from banning wind and solar.  If the windmills are creating $ (and they are) then whoever runs the windmills will take care of keeping access to new sites.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 09:41:57 AM
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089)
Those same wind mills that are in the Columbia River Gorge that have to be turned off more then they’re on running? Out here we have hydro power but they keep wanting to rip out which will be a disaster for most communities. Good question what happens in a situation like Paradise California or here the PNW last summer where the power is cut and you need to leave in a seconds notice?
Bumping this up at the end is a great question for you pro electric guys and a great reason it will never work.
That is actually a great question.  And I'm no expert on the PNW but I would expect that new wind generation would be able to run longer. I would think though that the sun in eastern OR would power a lot of homes.  Or is in some ways very lucky with the deep hydro, great wind, huge solar potential in the east.  Hydro issues get close to so many conflicting challenges, salmon, irrigation, power, native tribe rights, broken promises all round everywhere.  I get only some of the complexity there, sure I am missing quite a bit.  
You still missed the biggest question of them all if there’s a natural disaster such as a fire or wind event there’s no electricity it’s all cut. So if all of this cut for same a week how are you supposed to get out of harms way? The electric car is one of the unsafest thing to be invented for this reason exactly.
To eastern Oregon there’s two I know of and they haven’t made a dime other then it allows cities here buy a credit for feel good.
I guess I don't get the big question?  What's different if a solar farm is making the power or a coal plant?  How does that impact getting out of the way?   Or do you mean electricity is out and EVs can charge?  To answer that I'd say go look at Florida or Houston in the hurricanes and see how the ICE fleet did getting out of the way vs EVs?  There's nothing special or constraining about an EV vs an ICE.  They both flood just fine. EVs crawling in traffic basically does not use power so in that regard it has a huge advantage over an ICE.  At a crawl the EV range is extended dramatically, no wind friction.  They all catch on fire, just ICE catch on fire more often.  They both get in wrecks, just ICEs get in more and are more dangerous.  
Re solar farms...ok so they built subsidized solar farms and they don't make money?  I understand that solar farm lease rates are booming out there so I don't see what the hangup is.  If someone is offering money you can take it or not.  The subsidies are falling all over the US as the farms get built and at least here in VA they don't count for much but if you are leasing the farm out that's not even your problem is it?  Nat gas peaker plants have been failing all over TX and going bankrupt.  That's the market talking.  Wind is super cheap at night and solar is soaring and now many old power plants are not competitive.  Let the market play out and remove all the subsidies and get the govt out of energy business is what I'd say.  
Batteries to flex storage of juice is the problem for renewables.  It's the one hurdle remaining.
If you have a disaster like here in the PNW or Paradise California guess what happens all power is turned off, with an electric vehicle what do you do when you get that leave order?
A little background on those most of those areas had the power turned off before people got home that day the Lionshead fire rolled through.
 
If you really running a combustion engine is such a problem in your book why not setup a steam donkey with cable vs that Ponsse forwarder. You wouldn’t have diesel, you wouldn’t have hydraulic oil, and you wouldn’t have gear lube. Before you say I don’t like advancements I love tech I do a ton of 3D drafting and printing making stuff I can no longer get or making better then the original and that is all electric but for something in the woods or on the road it’s a deadly combo.
So with the power cut off how do the ICE get gas?   How do ICE and EVs do in a hurricane evacuation.  Well, if they leave in time they are ok, if they wait too long they both flood just fine.  
If they cut the power an EV owner can leave or not, just like an ICE owner.  The electricity in the car is not going anywhere.  2 days later they drive out if they want.  EVs do really really well compared to ICE in heavy traffic crawls btw.  The cars energy use / mile is very low because of the lack of wind resistance.  So they barely use power, can go for hours and hours crawling.  Many ICEs will get stranded but not many EVs.  Teslas have now driven 22.5 billion miles.  That's a lot of miles.  We know they are safer, by far safer, than ICEs.  They roll over less, they have better crash protection, the batteries have less issues than ICE in regards to fires and they don't explode.  They have much more sophisticated practical auto piloting.  The reason Tesla setup an insurance company is because they know exactly how dangerous Teslas are (not) and understand the risk (low).  They will clean up in the insurance business and cherry pick all the good drivers because they know who's good and who is an idiot.  Lots of idiot drivers buy teslas because they are so fast.  Just like Porsche.


The diesel is a problem in my book but one I live with (just like my nosy neighbors).    I'm not swapping out my 462 or 661 either, not until a battery powered saw comes along to replace it.  But if Ponsse comes to me and says..hey we are coming out with a battery powered forwarder, do you want to see it.  I'd say yes I would.  If it works, I'd buy it.  Right now that does not exist.  


I learned this weekend that someone has gone to tolomatic in MN for an electric linear actuator for forestry.  That is news to me.  I don't know how or where or what application but it is for logging.  So, someone in the logging industry or a person wanting to get in the logging industry is looking at it and thinking of getting rid of hydraulics.  And that person put $ down.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 01, 2021, 09:53:23 AM
If everyone starts saying NO, the government will step in.  shall we put them all on federal land?  say national parks?  you do not feel that a farm with 300 wind turbines will take away from the mountains with presidents faces on them in SD.  we think the prairie in Ks is beautiful.  It appears that some politicians in the big cities think less of the rural areas.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 01, 2021, 10:04:03 AM
you make good points, and when the tech. is ready I will look at each item with an open mind.  I think the steps being taken to decrease the efficiency with witch we harvest and use the sun energy stored in the earth (pipeline), is the beginning of the government ramming this down out throat.  so I think we have two threads going.  I agree that electric may be better for some applications.  I plan on getting a new 1 ton dually and to drive it the next 20 years, and I do not want to pay 20 dollars a gallon for diesel.  Why does diesel cost more than gasoline? it has less refining costs?  Much  of the newer technology, and or public programs benefit the higher population center.  but we all pay.  Out on a ranch you are self sufficient.  If the government make laws or decisions based on cities, it adversely effects the rural folks, since they are not considered.  We have less public transportation.  we all take care of ourselves.  maybe we should all move to the country, or all move to the city.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 01, 2021, 10:11:09 AM
So with the power cut off how do the ICE get gas?    
We will use the gravitational pull from the earth to get it out of our tank, or hook a cable onto the battery of the truck to a 12 v pump.  using very little energy, we can put hundreds of gallons of fuel in the tanks and be able to go many miles without needing to get additional fuel.  my truck gets 18 mpg on the highway, and so 100 gallons of fuel in a bed tank, can carry me and my family (in an emergency) 1,800 miles.  pulling a 41 foot fifth wheel camper 1,100 miles. :)   8)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 01, 2021, 10:51:58 AM
Natural disaster evacuation is a strange reason to be against electric vehicles. During Katrina 100k people got stuck in New Orleans and it wasn't because they couldn't charge their nissan or converted old toyota :D


If we didn't buy so many overseas plastic pieces of junk we wouldn't need to pollute Eastern Oregon with so many solar farms. Have you ever been to a relative's house and they have TVs in nearly every room and half of them are on? Nearly every dang thing you buy consumes electricity for some reason? There are systemic problems that have gotten us here that many prefer to just ignore. Over consumption being a huge one.


Maybe if people were a little more responsible for themselves it wouldn't hurt, either. Grid electricity and mass produced oil products have turned us all into a bunch of whiners that are mostly incapable of providing for our own needs. If grid power is a problem produce some/most/all of your own even if it takes a generator to fill the gaps. No I don't want to cut wood with an ax and misery whip but would if that is what it took to heat my house for the winter, a lot of others would simply freeze to death or the government would have to step in to save them.


They are getting close with battery chainsaws and like nativewolf once they meet my needs I'll have some and they will get charged with existing non grid tied solar PV panels that mostly run our house. For what we have spent in generator fuel over a decade to charge batteries during the cloudy periods of winter we could have enough panels and batteries to make it a non issue, but cash up front was the problem. That is getting to be less of an issue and someone today doing what we did a decade ago is in an insanely better position.


Somebody said PV panels are junk after 5 years? I have some still producing near rated power that are 20 years old with a *GASP* plastic frame. Aluminum frame still full output at 10 and 15 years. The gov't is going to eminent domain your land to put up bird killing windmills? I don't think they have to because so many people are willing to sign on the dotted line for that sweet sweet lease money that pays their ever increasing property taxes and more. Talk about the government messing with your freedom, a lot of places here have put moratoriums on solar farm installs because so many people are happy to sign a lease on marginal land so they can get some income from it that the gov doesn't know what to do or think. Here they don't want you to pay your taxes because then they can sell the land, then the next person can't pay the taxes so they sell it again. Some properties get sold every 4 years for decades and it sure makes them a lot more money than if someone was paying the taxes reliably.


Don't really know where I was going with this, hard to respond to all that's been going on in here, what a wild thread ;D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 01, 2021, 10:58:27 AM
Eastern OR is getting polluted with solar farms, and yes they are subsidized massively - I have family that has been approached several times over the last year or so to lease out ranch land.  
Polluted with solar farms :D
I was there in August. When is the last time you were there to observe the changes?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 11:01:32 AM
If everyone starts saying NO, the government will step in.  shall we put them all on federal land?  say national parks?  you do not feel that a farm with 300 wind turbines will take away from the mountains with presidents faces on them in SD.  we think the prairie in Ks is beautiful.  It appears that some politicians in the big cities think less of the rural areas.
But the issue appears that everyone says yes.  It is the problem with urban sprawl everywhere.  Farmers all complains and then sign on the dotted line to sell their property and once a suburb or a shopping center or a fedex center it is never going back to anything else.  
If farmers don't want windmills on their land they can not sell the rights.  I really don't see where it is any one elses business that they have sold the rights, as long as the windmill is setback from property lines a bit and I guess they are.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: farmfromkansas on February 01, 2021, 11:14:35 AM
There is a farm of windmills from Roxbury to Hope, you can see them along K-4 highway.  The company pays a good amount per mill to the land owner, so it is very attractive.  Do not know what the property tax is on each mill.  They have built new power lines to handle the transport of the power.  Power cost is up, someone has to pay for the new mills.                                                         Someone told me last week, you can get a electric motor to replace your 350 Chevy engine, that will bolt up to your automatic transmission.  Wonder what the batteries cost to run it?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 01, 2021, 11:26:18 AM
If everyone starts saying NO, the government will step in.  shall we put them all on federal land?  say national parks?  you do not feel that a farm with 300 wind turbines will take away from the mountains with presidents faces on them in SD.  we think the prairie in Ks is beautiful.  It appears that some politicians in the big cities think less of the rural areas.
But the issue appears that everyone says yes.  It is the problem with urban sprawl everywhere.  Farmers all complains and then sign on the dotted line to sell their property and once a suburb or a shopping center or a fedex center it is never going back to anything else.  
If farmers don't want windmills on their land they can not sell the rights.  I really don't see where it is any one elses business that they have sold the rights, as long as the windmill is setback from property lines a bit and I guess they are.  
The NIMBYs don't want to have to look at the symptoms of their over consumption (wind mills, solar farms)! They want it to all be "somewhere else" like a coal plant in WY where they don't have to be confronted with reality. Agree with you that this is a land use and property rights issue at heart. We don't want people telling us we can't use our diesel equipment but are ok with telling people they can't mulch 10 acres of buckthorn on polluted soil to put up racks of PV panels
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 11:32:21 AM
Eastern OR is getting polluted with solar farms, and yes they are subsidized massively - I have family that has been approached several times over the last year or so to lease out ranch land.  
Polluted with solar farms :D
I was there in August. When is the last time you were there to observe the changes?
Oh man I have not been to OR in 2 decades...too long.  Can't wait to go back, want to see @Skeans1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37446) trees and see him drop a few.  I think the way you stated that phrase was hilarious though.  I'm saving it ...might make a Tshirt, it would sell like crazy... :D.  I think everyone on each side of the argument would love it.  
 I see the solar farms all through NC now and I am much more bothered by  4 story 30 acres of pavement fedex distribution centers taking over the Shen valley.  Currently there are poultry farms all over the area, if the abandoned ones got converted to solar farms it would not bother me at all and better that than Amazon but it isnt my property is it.  Again, your milage may vary and that's ok.   Like tree huggers seeing clearcuts, if they don't like a forest getting clearcut..buy it.  If they don't like the suburb getting built...buy it.  If they didn't want a natural gas fracking well next door they should have bought it (mom & dad I'm talking to you).  That's the nature of property rights. 


I think now that Tesla is scaling up the solar roof we could get a lot of the solar production on rooftops, it is about the same as a metal roof and that's come way down in 3 years.  If I can somehow scratch up 40 walnut trees  by May I may go solar roof vs panels.  We'll see.  They look great.  Solar panels from Tesla, installed, are coming in at $1.50/watt.  25 year warranty.  They are panels though and I would prefer integrated tiles, they do look better.  Guess we'll see but it is likely a long term thing. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 11:34:13 AM
If everyone starts saying NO, the government will step in.  shall we put them all on federal land?  say national parks?  you do not feel that a farm with 300 wind turbines will take away from the mountains with presidents faces on them in SD.  we think the prairie in Ks is beautiful.  It appears that some politicians in the big cities think less of the rural areas.
But the issue appears that everyone says yes.  It is the problem with urban sprawl everywhere.  Farmers all complains and then sign on the dotted line to sell their property and once a suburb or a shopping center or a fedex center it is never going back to anything else.  
If farmers don't want windmills on their land they can not sell the rights.  I really don't see where it is any one elses business that they have sold the rights, as long as the windmill is setback from property lines a bit and I guess they are.  
The NIMBYs don't want to have to look at the symptoms of their over consumption (wind mills, solar farms)! They want it to all be "somewhere else" like a coal plant in WY where they don't have to be confronted with reality. Agree with you that this is a land use and property rights issue at heart. We don't want people telling us we can't use our diesel equipment but are ok with telling people they can't mulch 10 acres of buckthorn on polluted soil to put up racks of PV panels
Yep that's about it... some people see a wall of invasive crap and say what  a pretty forest, I cut it and burn it and they get upset.  No matter that is is replanted with a complex set of native species.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 11:42:56 AM
There is a farm of windmills from Roxbury to Hope, you can see them along K-4 highway.  The company pays a good amount per mill to the land owner, so it is very attractive.  Do not know what the property tax is on each mill.  They have built new power lines to handle the transport of the power.  Power cost is up, someone has to pay for the new mills.                                                         Someone told me last week, you can get a electric motor to replace your 350 Chevy engine, that will bolt up to your automatic transmission.  Wonder what the batteries cost to run it?
Power rates always go up... I mean always.  Build Nukes...oh we need to raise our rates.  Oh and again because you know the nuke is coming in 300% over budget.  I will say one thing for nat gas powerplants, they have those speced so well that they can have it built in under a year and on budget and usually on spec.  I can't comment on wind but solar farms come in on or under budget , no moving parts.  
I also can't comment on the chevy 350 to electric motor conversion but it sounds like @mudfarmer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=27318) can.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Runningalucas on February 01, 2021, 11:48:18 AM
I saw this article this morning; I realize now, we're going to be swamped with articles for, and against other tech now.  This will  be fun :)

The CEO of Toyota had this to say: 

Quote
The Wall Street Journal was in attendance and noted the CEO’s disdain for EVs boils down to his belief they’ll ruin businesses, require massive investments, and even emit more carbon dioxide than combustion-engined vehicles. “The current business model of the car industry is going to collapse,” he said. “The more EVs we build, the worse carbon dioxide gets… When politicians are out there saying, ‘Let’s get rid of all cars using gasoline,’ do they understand this?”
Toyota CEO Agrees With Elon Musk: We Don't Have Enough Electricity to Electrify All the Cars (https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/bryan-preston/2020/12/21/toyota-ceo-agrees-with-elon-musk-we-dont-have-enough-electricity-to-electrify-all-the-cars-n1222999)


Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 01, 2021, 12:07:10 PM
so I guess we could put nuclear waste next door, and the neighbors have no right to say anything.  yes the landscape is polluted with white fans.  try to put a feedlot, or pig, or chicken farm,  you have to get signatures from all the folks that may be impacted.  when everyone realizes it is not worth it (DDT) then the gov. forces us to turn over land, cause "the country needs the energy, cause we no longer have infrastructure for cheap gas, coal, oil'.  of course I guess we can always buy it from other countries like we used to.  how many plants can live under a solar panel?  I guess we do not need them to turn CO2 into O2, when the amount of surface needed to power our county is in the shade.   :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 01, 2021, 12:08:43 PM
There is a farm of windmills from Roxbury to Hope, you can see them along K-4 highway.  The company pays a good amount per mill to the land owner, so it is very attractive.  Do not know what the property tax is on each mill.  They have built new power lines to handle the transport of the power.  Power cost is up, someone has to pay for the new mills.                                                         Someone told me last week, you can get a electric motor to replace your 350 Chevy engine, that will bolt up to your automatic transmission.  Wonder what the batteries cost to run it?
Didn't know anything about that, there are a lot of conversion companies and shops out there now they are springing up like mad.


Was tickled to see that maybe you are referring to this "eCrate" motor from GM themselves?? Cool! The Chevrolet Performance eCrate Is Here to Make Electric Drivetrain Swaps Easier Than Ever (https://www.thedrive.com/news/37354/the-chevrolet-performance-ecrate-is-here-to-make-electric-drivetrain-swaps-easier-than-ever)
Quote
Chevrolet Performance is even certifying dealerships and aftermarket companies as Electric Connect Cruise and Connect installers, making sure that they'll have the right training and equipment to work on these kits. Michigan's Lingenfelter Performance Engineering—as in, the fast Corvette people (https://www.thedrive.com/news/25741/this-c1-inspired-2001-chevrolet-corvette-z06-is-headed-to-auction)—will be the first company to test out the new certification program.
It looks like it is mostly off the shelf chevy Bolt parts that they've put into a near drop-in kit. Good on 'em!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 01, 2021, 12:10:08 PM
  how many plants can live under a solar panel?  I guess we do not need them to turn CO2 into O2, when the amount of surface needed to power our county is in the shade.   :)
Actually a lot I guess, it's sort of a problem to the point where they are grazing sheep in some of the big farms.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 01, 2021, 12:23:06 PM
sheep and goats are used to eat the weeds between equipment.  i am not sure how much grows in the shade.  they are taking the place of the machines that would require a human, and be hard to navigate between the equipment.  just a point to the CO2 fearing green folk, and the nature of unintended consequences that by definition we cannot presently understand or foresee.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 12:26:09 PM
so I guess we could put nuclear waste next door, and the neighbors have no right to say anything.  yes the landscape is polluted with white fans.  try to put a feedlot, or pig, or chicken farm,  you have to get signatures from all the folks that may be impacted.  when everyone realizes it is not worth it (DDT) then the gov. forces us to turn over land, cause "the country needs the energy, cause we no longer have infrastructure for cheap gas, coal, oil'.  of course I guess we can always buy it from other countries like we used to.  how many plants can live under a solar panel?  I guess we do not need them to turn CO2 into O2, when the amount of surface needed to power our county is in the shade.   :)
You'll get a kick out of this.  We have to get a special permit to sell fenceboards we will mill on our farm.  We can mill them, just not sell them.  To get the permit we had to pay a huge fee, letters get sent to anyone within 3 miles, signs go up on our property saying "sawmill permit" .  Hey guess what ?  I got to meet the neighbors  :D.  When they learn it is just a tiny little mill and just what we cut most folks were very nice but some of the comments are just...well they have made my millennial son an even bigger pro business libertarian.  At least they accomplished one good thing.  One comment from some DC lobbyist really got him wound up...visitors to wineries don't want to see logging trucks.  Maybe they don't realize wine is aged in oak barrels...from logs...carried on logging trucks  :D.  What hypocrisy.  Fortunately we have a good rights to farm law and it includes silviculture.  We're going to have log trucks honk loudly when passing their house. :D, ok, just joking but we should.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 12:30:35 PM
sheep and goats are used to eat the weeds between equipment.  i am not sure how much grows in the shade.  they are taking the place of the machines that would require a human, and be hard to navigate between the equipment.  just a point to the CO2 fearing green folk, and the nature of unintended consequences that by definition we cannot presently understand or foresee.  
Yes it is a great point and funny too.  Lots of reflected sunlight on a solar farm and sometimes too much.  In Virginia they either have to spray or bring in the sheep or weedeat.   I think leased sheep mowing will be a good business on the east coast and midwest in the solar farms.  Agree to keep x many sheep for x months and then move them out, etc.  You'd have to time it right so as to get lambs for religious groups on the right weeks but if you could get timing right you'd do really well.  Get paid to raise sheep, get paid when selling lambs.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 01, 2021, 12:36:55 PM
Boy i really struck oil with this thread.. I had to refresh 3x just to get a post in.

You guys are making me so glad i moved in with the crazies where we do what we want and everything stays the same year after year.  I hate forced change.


Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 01, 2021, 12:37:41 PM
so surely someone can calculate the total electrical needs of the country, estimating the increased need when all things petrol are illegal punishable by death and the such.  then figure how much juice is made by the square foot of solar collector, and wala we will know what percent of the country will be shaded (covered ) by panels.  the we can come up with a plan to mine the materials, and make the wire including the insulation (need some petroleum) and see if the raw material exist.  and what do we do with all the plastic when 20 years is up and we have to replace it all, or hopefully refurbish.  again i am good with most of this, but the sudden flip a switch and by law making everything else terrible is what I do not like.  It should be done over time, and all the drama over the sudden emergency is upsetting.  Like Gore who took a philosophy class in college to challenge one to open their minds.  he did not open his mind, but believed the ridiculous stuff that was presented to counter the current norm.  It is like the guy in the lab when I was in undergrad.  He was married but stated that if in theory he had a perfect marriage, he and his wife could have sex with anyone they wanted.  It is a great argument, but in reality does not prob. bring most couples closer.   :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 01, 2021, 12:39:46 PM
Closer to divorce maybe
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 01, 2021, 12:42:45 PM
a lot of farm yards and junk yards raise goats to climb all over to eat whatever.  The nice thing is at harvest for meat, they are already half cooked by the magnetic field, and their milk is already ultra pasteurized :D :D :D!  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 12:59:22 PM
I saw this article this morning; I realize now, we're going to be swamped with articles for, and against other tech now.  This will  be fun :)

The CEO of Toyota had this to say:  

Quote
The Wall Street Journal was in attendance and noted the CEO’s disdain for EVs boils down to his belief they’ll ruin businesses, require massive investments, and even emit more carbon dioxide than combustion-engined vehicles. “The current business model of the car industry is going to collapse,” he said. “The more EVs we build, the worse carbon dioxide gets… When politicians are out there saying, ‘Let’s get rid of all cars using gasoline,’ do they understand this?”
Toyota CEO Agrees With Elon Musk: We Don't Have Enough Electricity to Electrify All the Cars (https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/bryan-preston/2020/12/21/toyota-ceo-agrees-with-elon-musk-we-dont-have-enough-electricity-to-electrify-all-the-cars-n1222999)
There is a lot, I mean a lot! of pressure on the big 3 in Japan (Toyota, Honda, Nissan) for failing to get on the EV train sooner.  They all bet huge money on hydrogen fuel cells.  Huge huge huge investments.  Enough investment to have fully built Tesla.  Today tesla is worth more than all 3 and how many fuel cell vehicles are there?  It was a risky huge bet and firing Ghosen and trying to railroad him to jail was not only about power struggle between france/japan but about the future of the car company.  Ghosen was willing to move quick.  Nissan... not so much.  Just like in Germany the Auto sector represents a very large % of the economy.  Both countries auto makers screwed up.  In germany they pushed "clean diesel" while running an elaborate fraud with the regulators and in Japan they focused on fuel cells.  Both are failures.  Detroit could not figure out what to do and so, ironically, are in better shape in some ways.  They don't have the same stranded and sunk costs.  Now germany has to come around to huge layoffs in the auto sector that supports much of the mid sized manufacturing in country.   Japan has not even come around to that issue.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 01, 2021, 01:08:16 PM
Good luck with sheep eating broom sedge, thistle, and pigweed producing meat anyone will buy.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 01, 2021, 01:17:07 PM
Hey doc thanks for the rabbit hole you sent me down! ;D They are doing some cool stuff under those big PV farms, mine isn't a farm just some panels on a hill billy woodshed roof so haven't gotten to play.


?How land under solar panels can contribute to food security (https://ensia.com/features/solar-farms/)


Quote
Although Minnesota may be in the vanguard of encouraging solar farm developers to grow native plants, it is far from the only place studying how solar farms can harvest more than just energy. Universities in the United States, Germany and elsewhere are testing the concept of “dual use farming,” (http://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2017/12/doubling-up-crops-with-solar-farms-could-increase-land-use-efficiency-by-as-much-as-60/) as some advocates call it, where crops grow below canopies of solar panels. They are finding they grow just fine — and, in some cases, better than (http://www.newsweek.com/smart-greenhouses-solar-power-crops-food-production-702589) crops in full sun.



Some neat links on wavelength selective panels and other stuff!


As far as doing your math, that would assume that panels are not increasing in efficiency at all, when in fact they have increased incredibly in efficiency in just a short time and so far that seems to be increasing rather than slowing down. You'd want to calculate that efficiency increase rate in there and make some wild guesses as to where it will go in the future.

You keep bringing up things being made illegal and being forced to do things but I don't think anyone else here is really talking about that? The discussion mainly seems to be about the viability, economics and time table of electric powered forestry equipment?(sometimes straying "a little" :D) but nobody is advocating making anything illegal or forcing anyone to do anything from what I can see so far.

@mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722) I am glad to already have been living "with the crazies where we do what we want" and stuff doesn't have to stay the same if we don't want! For me, well it's been pretty much the same. The closest cities to me are in another state and another country, and they can stay there!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 01, 2021, 01:37:43 PM
No docs right.  EPA does outlaw manufacturers from producing stuff that doesnt meet their ever tightening standards.  Thats why our best engines are behind us and running out.  Many states prevent engine swaps, vehicle emissions testing eliminates lots of vehicles that are still reliable.  FMCSA will probably yank the glider exemptions any day on old engines into late model purpose built rolling chassis. Etc etc. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 01, 2021, 01:54:24 PM
No docs right.  EPA does outlaw manufacturers from producing stuff that doesnt meet their ever tightening standards.  Thats why our best engines are behind us and running out.  Many states prevent engine swaps, vehicle emissions testing eliminates lots of vehicles that are still reliable.  FMCSA will probably yank the glider exemptions any day on old engines into late model purpose built rolling chassis. Etc etc.
Ok, I will not belabor the point but there were multiple mentions of eminent domain, govn't taking land type stuff.


ANYWAY last year Kubota responded to the changing winds and announced they were starting testing of some electric powered gear (tiny tractor and excavator)


Kubota Unveils Prototype Electric Tractors and Compact Construction Machinery | News 2020 | Kubota Global Site (https://www.kubota.com/news/2020/20200115_2.html)
Quote
Currently, one of Kubota’s mainstay product categories is agricultural machinery powered by diesel engines. In response to the global shift towards electric vehicles (EVs), however, Kubota has engaged in reseach and development of electrically powered equipment, such as motors, inverters, and battery packs, to prepare for future opportunities.
[ .. ]
Future plans
  • Kubota will start monitor tests of the tractor in France this year.
  • Kubota plans to lauch the electrical tractors and electrical compact construction machinery sooner after conducting a series of experiments and evaluations for them. .
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: PoginyHill on February 01, 2021, 02:04:36 PM
some random thoughts:
  • When will someone re-write Joni Mitchell's song "Big Yellow Taxi" to reflect cutting down trees for solar farms instead of parking lots?
  • The sun has only a limited watts/sq-ft here on earth. How many acres are required to make a meaningful impact on our usage? Even at 100% efficiency converting sunlight to power??
  • Wind towers are really neat - an engineering marvel. I just wish they could live on their own merits rather than subsidies. Steam engines are really neat, too. But they came and went on their own.
  • Windfarms and solar farms are great for the NIMBY drive-bys. Suburban dwellers can look in awe as they drive back to their suburban paved-driveway, manicured-lawn homes. Loved by city-folk; endured by county-folk.
  • Nuclear power is awesome. Politics, nuclear waste, regulation, liability, and public ignorance make it too expensive today. Besides maybe a black hole, there is no more concentrated source of power. Submarines go 10 years between re-fueling with a reactor the size of desk.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 01, 2021, 02:31:24 PM
some random thoughts:
  • The sun has only a limited watts/sq-ft here on earth. How many acres are required to make a meaningful impact on our usage? Even at 100% efficiency converting sunlight to power??
We've put ourselves in quite a bind on this one. Growth For Growth's Sake really doing a number.


A scaled down example of this question happens to me about once a year when someone wants to talk about taking their house/cabin "off tha grid" -- the discussion fails right around the first step when we talk sizing. With current tech if you want to make all your own power and not spend wheelbarrow loads of money most people just plain use too much electricity for it to pencil out and they DON'T want to cut back. That includes diesel/gas/propane/natural gas gensets. You can buy it from the power company cheaper.


How many acres? All of them eventually, since our usage just increases year over year over year whether we are still burning other fuels or not.


Tune in next week to see if the earthlings have managed to unscrew themselves this time, after putting red loctite on every fastener and breaking their torch :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 01, 2021, 02:36:28 PM



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10199/statism-ideas-so-good-they-have-to-be-mandatory-gun-480x270.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612208033)
 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 01, 2021, 02:43:49 PM
I read a blurb on my newsfeed this morning that around 2/3s of Tesla's operating revenue was from government subsidy and purchase of EV "credits" from other automakers that are required to do so if a certain % of their fleet was not EV.

The future arrives at the point of a gun. Government always knows what best. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 01, 2021, 02:47:50 PM
@mudfarmer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=27318) did you hear about the executive order to stop the keystone pipeline and the 10,000 folks that lost their jobs as a result of the green new deal "ideology"  that is not even here yet?  i am talking about pulling the plug on what we have that has worked for years based on politics and emotion.  i know that all these things may work in time.  i do not think we are ready to start tomorrow.  that is the government forcing us to move the way they want.  they will make it impossible for us to have a choice, that is very different than it being the best choice.  I  use all kinds of electric stuff.  remember when the us government helps us do something, they are using our money to do it.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 01, 2021, 02:54:15 PM
No I did not hear about 10,000 ppl losing their jobs from an ideology that is not here, that doesn't sound good!

Preaching to the choir on the gov't using my money for things I don't want.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/im_from_the_government_im_here_to_h.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612209205)
  Since we are doing pictures ;D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 01, 2021, 03:00:29 PM
we r on the same page!   8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 01, 2021, 03:35:29 PM
My elementary school was on land taken from an old guy.  His house and semis were on one side of it and his backhoe, lowboy, enddump and little shop were on the other side.  Just plopped a school in the middle of his yard and he died still rigutfully bitter about it.  Im sure he was compensated to some degree but against your will is no compensation at all imo. 


Anyhow, govt has been doing to people what it may since govt began.  Thatll only increase and its why im more afraid of governors than criminals. I can only fight back against the latter. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 01, 2021, 03:36:41 PM
In other news,  boy just let his first magic smoke out of a $60 toy that made it ohh.. About 35 days.  


I will see if tesla has any grant programs. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 03:59:11 PM
so surely someone can calculate the total electrical needs of the country, estimating the increased need when all things petrol are illegal punishable by death and the such.  then figure how much juice is made by the square foot of solar collector, and wala we will know what percent of the country will be shaded (covered ) by panels.  the we can come up with a plan to mine the materials, and make the wire including the insulation (need some petroleum) and see if the raw material exist.  and what do we do with all the plastic when 20 years is up and we have to replace it all, or hopefully refurbish.  again i am good with most of this, but the sudden flip a switch and by law making everything else terrible is what I do not like.  It should be done over time, and all the drama over the sudden emergency is upsetting.  Like Gore who took a philosophy class in college to challenge one to open their minds.  he did not open his mind, but believed the ridiculous stuff that was presented to counter the current norm.  It is like the guy in the lab when I was in undergrad.  He was married but stated that if in theory he had a perfect marriage, he and his wife could have sex with anyone they wanted.  It is a great argument, but in reality does not prob. bring most couples closer.   :)
Doc you've been a gent so I did as you asked and it was a chore (thank goodness we're snowed in working on this sawmill special permit :D).  I took the power needs of the US (sort of had to fudge it a bit but should be close) at close to GW, I took the average production of industrial solar farms at delivering 50 MW/100 hectare and converted to acres.  If I am right it is 8,700,000 acres based on a bunch of averages that might or might not be off by a lot.  A bit more than the state of MA but less than a good sized TX ranch  :D.  Now that's no wind just solar no improvements and enough solar to power overnight consumption.  About 10% of the state of NV is another way to think of it.  That's not covered that's actual kind of taking all the ideal land in an area.  Most big solar farms use natural topography to help orientation and are thus kind of spread out.  I could be off  50% on either side, probably are.  That assumes no rooftop solar (about 30% of solar to date).  An interesting number no doubt.    
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 04:21:07 PM
I read a blurb on my newsfeed this morning that around 2/3s of Tesla's operating revenue was from government subsidy and purchase of EV "credits" from other automakers that are required to do so if a certain % of their fleet was not EV.

The future arrives at the point of a gun. Government always knows what best.
No, it is 2/3 of their profit.  And it comes from selling EV credits in Europe.  They would still be profitable here but that is not their goal.  They only want some profit to reduce cost of debt, by having profit you get a higher S&P bond rating.  Tesla has more CASH in the bank than the market cap of many auto makers.  They need it because each factory cost billions.  Fiat (owner of jeep/dodge/chryslar labels) is basically paying Tesla to build the massive new Factory in Berlin that opens this year.  Did I share the pictures of the Ponsses clearing a fir plantation that was a Post WWII defense barricade planted by easter german commies.  I wish I could own one ponsse that did that.  In one week hundreds of acres cleared and logs gone.  Awesome.  Anyhow, funny stuff Dodge paying Tesla to put Fiat out of business.  God bless the EU.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on February 01, 2021, 04:59:52 PM
Going back a few pages, I wasn't snowed in but with the truck sideways halfway up the hill I am now  :D
The best solar collector so far is a leaf. Back when  internal combustion was pretty new John D's gasoline was available in town but not in rural areas. Many gristmills had or were connected with distilleries in rural areas. The model T can run to the country on gas and adjust timing to come home on alcohol, Ford assumed rural America was going to run on alky. Brazil has a couple of times, sugar 'shine. Corn is only one way, and not the best by far, to produce it. Harry Ferguson's early TE tractors were also designed to run on alcohol. Diesel was first designed to run on peanut oil. Methane and wood have also been used for transport fuel. There are multiple ways to skin the cat. Those are all using current carbon so are neutral in the fuel source but probably not in refining growing and processing.

Before we started digging up stored sunshine the population stayed below a few billion, the true carrying capacity of the planet. Once we got into that ancient energy the genie was out of the bottle and population exploded. That's the larger part of the problem IMO, there's just too dang many of us. Nobody wants to address that problem but it is at the root of many of the others y'all have been talking about.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 01, 2021, 05:02:30 PM
I read a blurb on my newsfeed this morning that around 2/3s of Tesla's operating revenue was from government subsidy and purchase of EV "credits" from other automakers that are required to do so if a certain % of their fleet was not EV.

The future arrives at the point of a gun. Government always knows what best.
No, it is 2/3 of their profit.  And it comes from selling EV credits in Europe.  They would still be profitable here but that is not their goal.  They only want some profit to reduce cost of debt, by having profit you get a higher S&P bond rating.  Tesla has more CASH in the bank than the market cap of many auto makers.  They need it because each factory cost billions.  Fiat (owner of jeep/dodge/chryslar labels) is basically paying Tesla to build the massive new Factory in Berlin that opens this year.  Did I share the pictures of the Ponsses clearing a fir plantation that was a Post WWII defense barricade planted by easter german commies.  I wish I could own one ponsse that did that.  In one week hundreds of acres cleared and logs gone.  Awesome.  Anyhow, funny stuff Dodge paying Tesla to put Fiat out of business.  God bless the EU.
This is a link to the article that says without the regulatory credits they were nowhere close to being profitable. Shell game.
Tesla's 2020 Profit Didn't Come from Selling Cars, But Regulatory Credits - autoevolution (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-s-2020-profit-didn-t-come-from-selling-cars-but-regulatory-credits-155403.html)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skip on February 01, 2021, 05:09:11 PM
I believe cancelling the Keystone Pipeline cost more like 50 or 60 thousand GOOD jobs .  >:(
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 06:19:33 PM
I read a blurb on my newsfeed this morning that around 2/3s of Tesla's operating revenue was from government subsidy and purchase of EV "credits" from other automakers that are required to do so if a certain % of their fleet was not EV.

The future arrives at the point of a gun. Government always knows what best.
No, it is 2/3 of their profit.  And it comes from selling EV credits in Europe.  They would still be profitable here but that is not their goal.  They only want some profit to reduce cost of debt, by having profit you get a higher S&P bond rating.  Tesla has more CASH in the bank than the market cap of many auto makers.  They need it because each factory cost billions.  Fiat (owner of jeep/dodge/chryslar labels) is basically paying Tesla to build the massive new Factory in Berlin that opens this year.  Did I share the pictures of the Ponsses clearing a fir plantation that was a Post WWII defense barricade planted by easter german commies.  I wish I could own one ponsse that did that.  In one week hundreds of acres cleared and logs gone.  Awesome.  Anyhow, funny stuff Dodge paying Tesla to put Fiat out of business.  God bless the EU.
This is a link to the article that says without the regulatory credits they were nowhere close to being profitable. Shell game.
Tesla's 2020 Profit Didn't Come from Selling Cars, But Regulatory Credits - autoevolution (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-s-2020-profit-didn-t-come-from-selling-cars-but-regulatory-credits-155403.html)
Ahh yes, that paragon of independent journalism owned by a minor league oil company scion.  Who is paid by Toyota, GM, Merc, BMW to write blogs.  Yes, good source.  But he's not lying.  They do make a fortune doing that.  But also look at wall street, Morgan Stanley just upgraded it to $880, Piper Sandler to $1200.  Ark is coming out with new analysis in a month and so far they are the only ones with a correct  history on Tesla.  

Tesla has grown production at 45% a year.  If Fiat wants to buy credits, they take the free money.  They can literally charge whatever they want, nobody else is really a seller.  Fiat can pay enourrmass fines or pay Tesla something less.  If you were CFO at Tesla what would you do?  You can't turn it down, you'd have a lawsuit.   Toyota CEO gives back handed compliments to tsla, VW CEO trash talks with Elon, GM says they have a Tesla killer.  Today everything is getting compared to Tesla because they are the breaking all the rules and all the norms.


Wall st  assumes that in a couple of years reg credits are gone.  If you have a MS account or a Piper account you can read the entire analyst report.  Or wait for the folks at Ark to publish, I think they distribute it.  If Tesla hits that $1200 target than the company will be worth more than big oil and detroit combined. Throw in German's auto makers and everyone but Toyota in Japan.  
To pile on the damage Germany may be giving tesla billions of Euro to build an even bigger battery facility.  That's basically the govt of Germany telling VW, BMW and Merc to get a move on and get with it.  The german auto industry is in quite the doghouse.  So Tesla got paid by Fiat to build factory.  Now getting paid by Germany to build the same factory.  You see why GM, VW, Toyota and others are in trouble.  That's why Tesla's market cap is equal to all the worlds auto companies combined if you exclude the chinese ones. Any car company you've heard of all taken together, not worth Tesla.  What we need is not less Tesla but another one.  I hope Rivian makes it, we'll see.

I am stoked that Tesla was founded in the USA and they make the cars in a high cost area and are building more factories in the USA.  They pay really really well, the best engineers in the US want to work there and the new Austin TX facility will be the showcase of USA manufacturing.  First largest auto casting is in model Y, cybertruck manufacturing is simply futuristic (no frame), battery production there is going to be amazing.  All done in the USA with people getting paid good money to make a great product.  2100 acre facility.  You had to hold a gun to the head of detroit to make them build engines or cars in the USA.  With Tesla it was never even a question, just a matter of where.   They are committed to making cars for each region in each region with parts from each region.  

The next facility location will be announced later this year, hope it is NC or VA.  
I know you probably don't see many in KY but here they are commonplace.
Obviously I follow Tesla, they are blast to ride in, will knock your head back.  Auto pilot is amazing.  Lack of sound...great.  Friends and family have them but I really don't need a car, I need a truck.   Waiting sucks.  :(
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 01, 2021, 06:50:14 PM
You don't see Tesla's anywhere people actually have to drive and the great Tesla jobs are "created" by government extortion of the auto and oil producing states subsidizing them.

Your right that Tesla's are coming; but I am going to make my own little prediction to go with it. The people whose way of life that gets destroyed in the process will probably be looking for Tesla owners.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 01, 2021, 06:52:31 PM
and UBS just downgraded First Solar. blah blah blah blah blah
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 01, 2021, 07:04:09 PM
Once we got into that ancient energy the genie was out of the bottle and population exploded. That's the larger part of the problem IMO, there's just too dang many of us. Nobody wants to address that problem but it is at the root of many of the others y'all have been talking about.
Trouble is our leaders don't lead by example, they want it to be other people in far away lands to do all the dying.
It's easy to dream and scheme and we've all done it we see it here in the sawmilling section where guys that are thinking about getting a mill have the best numbers and finest logs,no check or knots all vertical grain and a great market for all the slabs and sawdust. The best logging is done around a table with a couple of beers the laws of physics are suspended and equipment works at 110 percent.
I have a customer that is building a perpetual motion machine and is renting my excavator to dig the pond that this machine will pump from 24 hours a day after the initial spin. I said "Andy think it through" and he said the trick is to get the flywheel balanced just right it's going to be great! Told him to take lots of pictures  :)
I wonder if some of the EV enthusiasts might be well served by building a simple machine such as a electric lawn tractor charged with a home sized solar or wind setup and get a feel for this technology? I did that with woodgas and built a truck that has run down the highway over 2000 miles at up to 60 mph and a nice little 12HP charcoal tractor too. The difference between my expectations and reality was a learning curve but you get a "feel" for the system and it's quirks and can better learn the difference between snake oil salesmen and honest reputable claims.
If I had a remote cabin and wanted power a cross between solar and woodgas would be my choice. A friend near Pemberton was off grid and had solar to run the small resort he managed but there were 2 months where he relied on gasoline. We talked about a generator run on woodgas to charge the batteries a couple times a week and run larger items such as washing machines and shop tools while charging.

Henry Ford said There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years.
Reading that several years ago was kind of inspiring and plans were purchased and 3" copper pipe and fittings were purchased and one day we intend to assemble the still. A friend in Sweden built a woodgasifier for a David Brown tractor and converted the 3 cyl perkins diesel to a  and farmed a large field of spuds with his grandfather's equipment and filled the roothouse.

Like Don said there is more than one way to skin a cat,let the free market lead as it always has. I don't think Wilbur and Orville were government subsidized
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 01, 2021, 07:11:50 PM
This is an interesting alternative to other batteries

The Mechanical Battery Explained - A Flywheel Comeback? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X2U7bDNcPM)


This other vid is one we did 4 years ago where the beginning is WWII footage of a woodgas powered car in Sweden and the people are on their way to a function and have to stop and load wood chunks into the gasifier then the video cuts to me loading our gasifier and going for a drive.
We built this system in 2007 and it's been a lot of fun. People like Ben Petersen and Wayne Keith have taken it much further with heat recycling producing better gas and now many in the states and around the world are driving daily.

A Winter's Woodgas Drive - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3SSmzUSCrk)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 01, 2021, 07:45:49 PM
You don't see Tesla's anywhere people actually have to drive


Not sure about that, they are not uncommon here around small town NZ, where the options are basically drive or walk. 

OK looking at new car registrations last year, they were slightly less than 1%, but they are no longer a "what was that?" novelty when you see them on the road. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 08:06:32 PM
Going back a few pages, I wasn't snowed in but with the truck sideways halfway up the hill I am now  :D
The best solar collector so far is a leaf. Back when  internal combustion was pretty new John D's gasoline was available in town but not in rural areas. Many gristmills had or were connected with distilleries in rural areas. The model T can run to the country on gas and adjust timing to come home on alcohol, Ford assumed rural America was going to run on alky. Brazil has a couple of times, sugar 'shine. Corn is only one way, and not the best by far, to produce it. Harry Ferguson's early TE tractors were also designed to run on alcohol. Diesel was first designed to run on peanut oil. Methane and wood have also been used for transport fuel. There are multiple ways to skin the cat. Those are all using current carbon so are neutral in the fuel source but probably not in refining growing and processing.

Before we started digging up stored sunshine the population stayed below a few billion, the true carrying capacity of the planet. Once we got into that ancient energy the genie was out of the bottle and population exploded. That's the larger part of the problem IMO, there's just too dang many of us. Nobody wants to address that problem but it is at the root of many of the others y'all have been talking about.
Yep, lots of wisdom there.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 08:09:43 PM
Once we got into that ancient energy the genie was out of the bottle and population exploded. That's the larger part of the problem IMO, there's just too dang many of us. Nobody wants to address that problem but it is at the root of many of the others y'all have been talking about.
Trouble is our leaders don't lead by example, they want it to be other people in far away lands to do all the dying.
It's easy to dream and scheme and we've all done it we see it here in the sawmilling section where guys that are thinking about getting a mill have the best numbers and finest logs,no check or knots all vertical grain and a great market for all the slabs and sawdust. The best logging is done around a table with a couple of beers the laws of physics are suspended and equipment works at 110 percent.
I have a customer that is building a perpetual motion machine and is renting my excavator to dig the pond that this machine will pump from 24 hours a day after the initial spin. I said "Andy think it through" and he said the trick is to get the flywheel balanced just right it's going to be great! Told him to take lots of pictures  :)
I wonder if some of the EV enthusiasts might be well served by building a simple machine such as a electric lawn tractor charged with a home sized solar or wind setup and get a feel for this technology? I did that with woodgas and built a truck that has run down the highway over 2000 miles at up to 60 mph and a nice little 12HP charcoal tractor too. The difference between my expectations and reality was a learning curve but you get a "feel" for the system and it's quirks and can better learn the difference between snake oil salesmen and honest reputable claims.
If I had a remote cabin and wanted power a cross between solar and woodgas would be my choice. A friend near Pemberton was off grid and had solar to run the small resort he managed but there were 2 months where he relied on gasoline. We talked about a generator run on woodgas to charge the batteries a couple times a week and run larger items such as washing machines and shop tools while charging.

Henry Ford said There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years.
Reading that several years ago was kind of inspiring and plans were purchased and 3" copper pipe and fittings were purchased and one day we intend to assemble the still. A friend in Sweden built a woodgasifier for a David Brown tractor and converted the 3 cyl perkins diesel to a  and farmed a large field of spuds with his grandfather's equipment and filled the roothouse.

Like Don said there is more than one way to skin a cat,let the free market lead as it always has. I don't think Wilbur and Orville were government subsidized
Right on.  Take away all the subsidies and let the best solution win.  I'm betting it is Solar and EVs in the short term but hey, who knows what happens in 30 years.  I'm also betting robo taxis will be huge, they kind of are the next evolution of EVs.  Lots of young people don't care about cars anymore.  Might be like stamp collections one day.  I could see that (though I'll probably be dead).  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Nebraska on February 01, 2021, 08:14:54 PM
Just some thoughts as I have caught up on this...Why do we fear global warming so much? There are  vast portions  of the world's land mass to cold to produce food or fix carbon in any great amount. As parts warm land use will change we have thumbs and will adapt.  Plants love CO2.
I fear a self aware machine more. Laugh if you will.

Where will our road building and maintenance funds come from when there are no fuel tax dollars? Oh yeah we just print more by the trillions.

As I don't wish to make this political, I will just say I'd  like to evaluate my future equipment choices to my needs and not have them forced upon me by others.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 01, 2021, 08:23:31 PM
Quote
Lots of young people don't care about cars anymore



It could be a regional thing as all five of my kids and all of their friends were counting down the years, months and days to get their drivers license although we have a young neighbour that has no interest in driving. We are in a rural area which could explain the desire to drive. They don't understand why anybody would want a autonomous vehicle although it might be popular with the ones with DUI's.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 08:54:59 PM
You don't see Tesla's anywhere people actually have to drive and the great Tesla jobs are "created" by government extortion of the auto and oil producing states subsidizing them.

Your right that Tesla's are coming; but I am going to make my own little prediction to go with it. The people whose way of life that gets destroyed in the process will probably be looking for Tesla owners.
There are 22 EV chargers that I can see on a basic map in KY.  That prob on counts half. 3 are high speed superchargers, several more are planned for KY.  A single mom in our school drives one.  At least 3 others there.  I see them every time I am on I81.  Literally every time.  I can't drive to Winchester without seeing one.  Seems every Sheetz has a supercharger.  There are over 300k driven in the USA.  22.5 BILLION miles driven.  No subsidies that are not available to anyone else making a car.  GM gets them for the the Volt, Ford for the e-mustang.  etc etc.  They just are not great...ok the e-mustang is not bad...just 10 years late.  Subsidies given to Solar firms pale compared to the subsidies given to Oil and gas and detroit over the last 50 years.   
I do want to address the anger in your post...it struck me as unchristian, that you almost are hoping for and expecting violence.  I pray that you find some peace and can enjoy the changes.  We are building a remarkable manufacturing firm with the best of the best going into engineering instead of law.  How cool, wonderful.  Kids are inspired.  The Austin TX facility will be the most advanced manufacturing facility in the world when it launches, capable of building things that were only dreams a few years ago.  Right down the road is SpaceX, single handedly and against the Defense dept lobby, got us back to space.  SpaceX, a private firm is launching as many satellites as China or Russia.  They are cool, they are the future.  There is so much joy and goodness that is coming at us.  Well it is a shame to not enjoy it. 
 
When computers replaced typewriters nobody talked about finding computer users.  GM is going to go petrol free...are they going to chase GM owners?  You are in my prayers tonight. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 01, 2021, 09:13:13 PM
Back off !! I saw no anger in Stavebuyers post and you weigh yourself. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 01, 2021, 09:36:30 PM
Completely agree.  I was going to explain to you how the whole thing in eastern Oregon has transpired and it's not because of ranchers deciding they get more money from solar, but at this point it's not worth the time.  

You can have your opinion, I suggest you refresh yourself with the rules here while you sit snowed in waiting for you diesel powered equipment to be able to return to work.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 09:50:24 PM
Fair enough.  Just seems..angry but maybe I'm mistaken.  No offense intended..just concerned.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 09:54:44 PM
Once we got into that ancient energy the genie was out of the bottle and population exploded. That's the larger part of the problem IMO, there's just too dang many of us. Nobody wants to address that problem but it is at the root of many of the others y'all have been talking about.
Trouble is our leaders don't lead by example, they want it to be other people in far away lands to do all the dying.
It's easy to dream and scheme and we've all done it we see it here in the sawmilling section where guys that are thinking about getting a mill have the best numbers and finest logs,no check or knots all vertical grain and a great market for all the slabs and sawdust. The best logging is done around a table with a couple of beers the laws of physics are suspended and equipment works at 110 percent.
I have a customer that is building a perpetual motion machine and is renting my excavator to dig the pond that this machine will pump from 24 hours a day after the initial spin. I said "Andy think it through" and he said the trick is to get the flywheel balanced just right it's going to be great! Told him to take lots of pictures  :)
I wonder if some of the EV enthusiasts might be well served by building a simple machine such as a electric lawn tractor charged with a home sized solar or wind setup and get a feel for this technology? I did that with woodgas and built a truck that has run down the highway over 2000 miles at up to 60 mph and a nice little 12HP charcoal tractor too. The difference between my expectations and reality was a learning curve but you get a "feel" for the system and it's quirks and can better learn the difference between snake oil salesmen and honest reputable claims.
If I had a remote cabin and wanted power a cross between solar and woodgas would be my choice. A friend near Pemberton was off grid and had solar to run the small resort he managed but there were 2 months where he relied on gasoline. We talked about a generator run on woodgas to charge the batteries a couple times a week and run larger items such as washing machines and shop tools while charging.

Henry Ford said There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years.
Reading that several years ago was kind of inspiring and plans were purchased and 3" copper pipe and fittings were purchased and one day we intend to assemble the still. A friend in Sweden built a woodgasifier for a David Brown tractor and converted the 3 cyl perkins diesel to a  and farmed a large field of spuds with his grandfather's equipment and filled the roothouse.

Like Don said there is more than one way to skin a cat,let the free market lead as it always has. I don't think Wilbur and Orville were government subsidized
Re tinkering:  This is literally how Tesla got started btw.  Hobbyist and others were tapping and soldering common LI battery cells together to make cheap battery packs because they wanted energy dense batteries.  It grew, got past hobbyist stage.  Elon and a team approached a design group that was involved but didnt want to do the startup thing but had put some neat demo machines together, another group did the same.  They joined and created Tesla.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 09:58:23 PM
Quote
Lots of young people don't care about cars anymore



It could be a regional thing as all five of my kids and all of their friends were counting down the years, months and days to get their drivers license although we have a young neighbour that has no interest in driving. We are in a rural area which could explain the desire to drive. They don't understand why anybody would want a autonomous vehicle although it might be popular with the ones with DUI's.
Personally I like to look at trees, not good when driving.  For many computer savvy young people there is just a drift away from wanting/needing cars.  When I was young I could not wait to get in a car.  My friends kids use Uber, etc.  I think that those with DUIs that are otherwise good and productive people will greatly benefit.  Those with poor eyesight and elderly will benefit.  Could really be a blessing for Elderly rural people that can't drive at night or at all and don't have kids around to take care of them and want to be independent.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 01, 2021, 10:06:00 PM
Fair enough.  Just seems..angry but maybe I'm mistaken.  No offense intended..just concerned.
I'm going to go right ahead and call BS on that.

Let's get back to the pros and cons of alternate energies.


Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 10:26:00 PM
Just some thoughts as I have caught up on this...Why do we fear global warming so much? There are  vast portions  of the world's land mass to cold to produce food or fix carbon in any great amount. As parts warm land use will change we have thumbs and will adapt.  Plants love CO2.
I fear a self aware machine more. Laugh if you will.

Where will our road building and maintenance funds come from when there are no fuel tax dollars? Oh yeah we just print more by the trillions.

As I don't wish to make this political, I will just say I'd  like to evaluate my future equipment choices to my needs and not have them forced upon me by others.
The basic models on global warming are predicting melting and flooding of coastal regions if we go above 2.5 C in overall warmth.  If this happens much of the wealthy coastal regions of the earth flood, or are in danger of flooding.  Think Hong Kong, NYC, Tokyo, half of Netherlands, Houston, much of Florida, etc etc etc.  The increases in tax's to pay for hardening coastal wealth will destroy the economies of the world.  Poverty explodes.  Saudi Arabia and Iran Pakistan and northern India become uninhabitable with temps of 140.  The models basic structure is probably right but the magnitude and direction and timing of that change is very uncertain.  Do we need to make sacrifices or not?  Who knows, I just don't like pollution so I am happy to see some options coming.  I can't afford them yet but I can see them coming and will get to try them out and enjoy them before I'm dead.  I'm a forester, I plant trees I will never harvest.  So I'm always thinking 60 years out and I don't plan on being here.  Anyhow, that's the basic gist  of the argument for prevention vs cure.   If the models are right and we screw this up it could be just horrible for our kids.  However the earth is grand and mysterious so who knows.  
Fearing a self aware machine is not a silly thing at all.  Elon Musk fears the self aware machine and he's building it.  Have you seen neuralink?  Home - Neuralink (https://neuralink.com/).  Scary to me too.  He says needed to communicate with self aware AIs.  
Road funds will collapse as fuel tax revenues decrease and they'll tax EVs, annual registration or something.  IL already does this and good on them.  EVs should not be free riders.  CA loves a tax and I'm sure they will do the same soon.  This is an important point.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 01, 2021, 10:33:53 PM
Just some thoughts as I have caught up on this...Why do we fear global warming so much? There are  vast portions  of the world's land mass to cold to produce food or fix carbon in any great amount. As parts warm land use will change we have thumbs and will adapt.  Plants love CO2. I fear a self aware machine more. Laugh if you will.


It"s not so much simply the warmer temperatures, it's the possible rapid change. There is that huge amount of ice currently tied up in Antarctica. This isn't sea ice, it's glacier, and most of it is above sea level. The Arctic sea ice can melt, and it doesn't change the average sea level. Antarctic ice starts to melt, and suddenly the high tide goes up 30+ feet. Kiss Holland goodbye, most of Florida, New York , London etc are all in a power of trouble. Some parts of the work will become uninhabitable, so maybe folks can move to Greenland and Siberia and grow bananas there? If those things changed over 100,000 years, life would adjust to it. 

But if that change happens over a few hundred years, the disruption to economies / agriculture / wildlife will be immense. Sea currents and weather patterns change in unpredictable ways etc. 

Earth's climate has changed before, but it's generally been a slow process (excluding the meteorite that wiped out most of the dinosaurs). So we know that "things" can change the Earth's climate, and those can be biological things like plants colonising land back in the REALLY old days, It changed the whole chemistry of the atmosphere. That tends to make me think that digging up and burning a zillion tons of old carbon "might" have an effect? 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 01, 2021, 10:39:56 PM
So there is a production electric skidsteer out there.  


Electric Skid Steer with Remote Control | 100% Independent, 100% Electric - YouTube (https://youtu.be/tATfs1DjTr8)

These two are too clean clothed british for me to not be annoyed so i jumped around.. The run time vs charge time specs are gonna make adoption very difficult because it seems like itll be about 50/50 or worse.  Where you can fuel a diesel in about 5 minutes and run it from sunup to sundown.  So what if you need to fill again.. 10 minutes a day of fueling and the rest working. If youre working a machine it should be generating revenue to buy the fuel.  If youre charging half the day you arent making money.  


At a glance it is a pretty machine, i cant fault the chassis and it does seem to have a sufficient sized electric system for its torque demand.. I just cant see a contractor with a diesel option choosing this for the same money in a free market.  But this isnt built for a free market.. Its built for a "carbon neutral" market where companies with an ideological purpose will dictate only such machinery will be used on their projects.  So yes, someone paving google parking lots will make a killing with one because of satisfying that idealogical demand.  In that special contract circumstance there is surely a fortune to be made for few.  

The question is what is the outcome for anyone else who jumps in?   Dont know.




Of interest to me was also this converted 2014 bobcat 530 [pretty big machine] with electric over hydraulic where he didnt spec or show the electrical system.

Electric bobcat - YouTube (https://youtu.be/IY6sv7kPIYo)



if i were to repower mine it would be done the same way.  Batteries to mono-directional motor, on-off switch, to dc forklift motor i have, coupled to the existing pump the engine used to run.  


His lugs down to a near stall in pivot turns with no load which tells me the system just didnt have the torque for the load that the high pressure pump is calling for but it was a big motor.. What 70hp? 90?


   Im sure the video was fully charged since no one is gonna demo the thing dead.. And it was only about a minute of use.  Im certain his budget is bigger than mine considering the base machine value.



Any battery available to me cheap at present probably isnt gonna be able to maintain the 35hp torque curve im used to which was wimpy to begin with.  And before i spent the money on batteries that are up to snuff id put in a diesel that the chassis was built around,  for less.  



I know enough about the present situation with offgrid battery bank life and maintenance and sulfation issues that i dont see them having the 20 plus year service life of a diesel yet. Maybe some day.  If i build a 36vdc electric bobcat then i need to build a gas powered 36vdc charger to go out in the woods and rescue it every time i dont make it back to the house and thats just not gonna fly.  Where is the win on that program?  



I will probably reserve those electric parts for the 5 wheeler john deere gators someone gave me.  Be handy to fetch the mail and water my daisies.
Neat.  So I like the visibility, much better than my Kubota which sort of sucks in terms of rear visibility.  I can see nothing in the rear.  On that one I could put in a rear view mirror or camera and see.  Sounded good.  8 hours of usage would be fine.  I saw this guys prototype 3 years ago on youtube, he's a Slovak I think or a Czech.   Glad to see he's succeeded in getting off the ground. I have 3 more years on my skid steer note.  Seems like in 3 years a lot of things are going to be possible.  Better save more nickels.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 01, 2021, 11:21:09 PM
This is an interesting alternative to other batteries


Pumped hydro is possibly the most practical storage option. Basically a hydro plant you can run in reverse. Power company here is proposing a fairly large one, have the potential site etc. A small lake in the middle of nowhere, but it's ~1,000 ft above a large river maybe 5 miles away. Not currently used for hydro as the natural slow from it is fairly small. Because it's on the banks of a large river, they don't need a lower storage lake. So if they pumped water from the river UP into the lake when there was excess Wind / Water / Sun that was not being used, then it can be used later for the dry / dark / calm times. 

It's not 100% efficient, but on a large scale you can get ~80% of the power back, and increases the storage capacity of the hydro system. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 02, 2021, 05:10:38 AM
Was just looking at the numbers on power gen here, and we do 20% hydro, 40% nuclear, 10% wind and biomass and 30% fossil fuel. So fossil fuel is still significant. Most of the hydro power is from the Saint John River drainage. The main river has 3 stations, the Tobique has 1 and the Aroostook has one. This also means we gave up a vibrant salmon angling resource that created employment. So hydro sounds free, because it's just water, but it's not. You wipe out the fish, farmland an disrupt livelihoods. And compensation is a pittance as history shows. ;)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 02, 2021, 05:21:26 AM
The power company has put up a few charging stations in the province. I have not really looked for them or noticed them. I've never read a sign anywhere that says "we have power". :D The only electric I have seen around here are very compact cars with very little ground clearance. I guess they don't go out in winter much. You get a road with a cross wind in winter piling snow up and them things ain't going anywhere. ;D I see used Tesla's for twice the money of a new Camray on gas. Tesla is not even sold in this region, nothing east of Quebec city. You do know that in Canada, 'Eastern Canada' does not include the Atlantic provinces? Get your head around that. We're just the tail end of the jet stream or something. We breath everyone else's pollution. ;D :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Roxie on February 02, 2021, 06:02:11 AM
Currently in our area, instead of signs that say “we have power,” are signs that say “water for horses.”

I must live in Kentucky. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Andries on February 02, 2021, 06:48:50 AM
. . .  You do know that in Canada, 'Eastern Canada' does not include the Atlantic provinces? Get your head around that. . . 
C'mon SwampDonkey,  don't buy into that Toronto Montreal language.
Those goofs call themselves Central Canada when the center of our country is 50 klicks East of Winnipeg!
 Folks in the Big Smoke seem to feel that all of Canada revolves around the CN Tower.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 02, 2021, 08:09:58 AM
They were talking that way even on the west coast when I worked out there. Saint John to them was in Newfoundland. :D

By the way, it's Saint Johns, Newfoundland and Saint John, New Brunswick the first incorporated city in the country in 1785. When Winston Churchill was here during WWII for a meeting he saw no sense of making ships several miles inland, when the deepest and easily defended port in world was in Saint John. The rest of us don't know either. :D "That's Canada for ya!" :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 02, 2021, 09:53:58 AM
Was just looking at the numbers on power gen here, and we do 20% hydro, 40% nuclear, 10% wind and biomass and 30% fossil fuel.
I like that SD, it's diverse and maybe more resilient than relying on one or two systems and it makes sense that if the grid is throughout the land that regional contributions are more easily allowed to add to it whether biomass,hydro or solar/wind etc.

Maybe home built nuclear? I'm going to check to see if I get one through Alibaba :)


Small Modular Reactors Explained - Nuclear Power's Future? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbrT3m89Y3M&feature=emb_title)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 02, 2021, 10:01:39 AM
This is an interesting alternative to other batteries


Pumped hydro is possibly the most practical storage option. Basically a hydro plant you can run in reverse. Power company here is proposing a fairly large one, have the potential site etc. A small lake in the middle of nowhere, but it's ~1,000 ft above a large river maybe 5 miles away. Not currently used for hydro as the natural slow from it is fairly small. Because it's on the banks of a large river, they don't need a lower storage lake. So if they pumped water from the river UP into the lake when there was excess Wind / Water / Sun that was not being used, then it can be used later for the dry / dark / calm times.

It's not 100% efficient, but on a large scale you can get ~80% of the power back, and increases the storage capacity of the hydro system.
Pumped hydro is very efficient.  Challenging in some areas but there is a firm here on east coast buying up old quarries to build pumped hydro stations.  Nearly instant power, etc.  It is actually not climate change related, just a good business.  Duke Power has a pumped hydro station or two in NC built over 15 years ago, maybe more.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on February 02, 2021, 10:04:45 AM
My sisters two kids (in their twenties) have never got their drivers license, they moved to the city for collage and stayed there for work, travel by foot or city bus and do fine. I have no desire to live in a city but the real impressive thing is their bank accounts.

Think about how much we all spend on vehicles, upkeep, insurance, fuel......Kind of crazy when you add it all up.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 02, 2021, 10:14:27 AM
Backyard nuclear sounds like a belben joke in the making.

;D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on February 02, 2021, 10:19:25 AM

Backyard nuclear sounds like a belben joke in the making.

;D
Just add picture of outhouse and the joke is complete.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 02, 2021, 10:58:45 AM
and we are also paying for their "free public transportation".  that works better than everyone having a car in population centers.  try growing crops or raising cattle there!  :)  @Hilltop366 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=8975) 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on February 02, 2021, 11:26:46 AM
Looking it up shows it is $82.50 per monthly pass (this is in Halifax 200 miles from me) but fares do not cover all the cost, the short fall is covered by additional property taxes in the serviced areas but it is probably more complicated than that when you factor in the additional cost to roads and infrastructure that would be required if there was no bus service. 

I suspect it would be difficult to figure out the true cost when factoring in all the effects of having or not having public transport in a populated area, infrastructure, roads, traffic congestion, parking, environment......

Rural vs City vs Suburbs it will never be a one size fits all solution
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 02, 2021, 02:22:34 PM
This push toward electric power for everything reminds me of an old joke.

Guy was dragging a log chain down the street. A second guy asks "why are you dragging that log chain?" First guy says "you ever tried pushing one of these things?"   :)

History tells us this "push" is not going to go in the desired direction.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 02, 2021, 02:37:40 PM
Toyota reports improved solid state battery technology. Possibly new EV in a couple years. 500 miles range, 15 minute charge. Who knows, we'll see.

Toyota Plans Revolutionary Solid State Battery for 2021 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G01xv1RyRVw&t=322s)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: sharp edge on February 02, 2021, 03:19:13 PM
Was thinking about that restaurant they built on the moon. The food was good, but the atmosphere was bad. The atmosphere was bad here back in the dino-days too. Things like worm eating brains...you can't kill, covid-19, emerald ash bores. we keep bring that e-go system up here. My
.02  :-\

SE

P.S. Happy Groundhogs day (winter is half over)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: brianJ on February 02, 2021, 03:50:10 PM
There is a substantial pumped hydro system over in Barge's neighborhood that uses 5 billion gallons of water.    Makes a round trip daily and is important for New York City's electric supply.  

I think it would be great to use Lake Erie & Lake Ontario as a pumped hydro battery.   A mere 6 or 8 inches of water would be an incredible amount of power.    If my math is correct 6 inches in Lake Erie is 1 trillion gallons.     Someone, please check my math?

Im sure politics would never let this happen not even just a half inch.   But this is the kind of scale to solve all kinds of problems for half of Canada and all the NE USA

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 02, 2021, 04:24:23 PM
There is a substantial pumped hydro system over in Barge's neighborhood that uses 5 billion gallons of water.    Makes a round trip daily and is important for New York City's electric supply.  

I think it would be great to use Lake Erie & Lake Ontario as a pumped hydro battery.   A mere 6 or 8 inches of water would be an incredible amount of power.    If my math is correct 6 inches in Lake Erie is 1 trillion gallons.     Someone, please check my math?

Im sure politics would never let this happen not even just a half inch.   But this is the kind of scale to solve all kinds of problems for half of Canada and all the NE USA
Wikipedia says surface area of 9,990 square miles on Erie, came out to 1,041,681,795,480 gallons of water at 6" for me too!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: sharp edge on February 02, 2021, 05:25:06 PM
The moon and wind would play around with 6" of water.


SE
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on February 02, 2021, 05:26:40 PM
I just looked up Bad Creek pumped storage in SC, looks like they are expanding it;
Duke Energy to expand South Carolina pumped hydro facility by 200MW | Energy Storage News (energy-storage.news) (https://www.energy-storage.news/news/duke-energy-to-expand-south-carolina-pumped-hydro-facility-by-200mw)

Back in the 70's they tried to put one in the county here on the New. We have 3 small hydros on the river with small dams that produce run of the river. The big pumped storage would have flooded a good bit of the western part of the county and had a large pool rise and fall as they flushed the toilet and refilled. That didn't fly but the run of the river hydros although small have been good neighbors, they were the first power here. I think about all the old gristmill sites, small but there are many of them.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 02, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
There is a substantial pumped hydro system over in Barge's neighborhood that uses 5 billion gallons of water.    Makes a round trip daily and is important for New York City's electric supply.  

I think it would be great to use Lake Erie & Lake Ontario as a pumped hydro battery.   A mere 6 or 8 inches of water would be an incredible amount of power.    If my math is correct 6 inches in Lake Erie is 1 trillion gallons.     Someone, please check my math?

Im sure politics would never let this happen not even just a half inch.   But this is the kind of scale to solve all kinds of problems for half of Canada and all the NE USA
Well they figured out how to do Niagra Falls?  Who knows.  Sounds interesting.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: brianJ on February 02, 2021, 05:41:23 PM
The moon and wind would play around with 6" of water.


SE
Moon and wind would not play around with those 6 inches of water any different than it does with the rest of the lake ::) ::) ???
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 02, 2021, 07:32:34 PM
Toyota reports improved solid state battery technology. Possibly new EV in a couple years. 500 miles range, 15 minute charge. Who knows, we'll see


Toyota have never said NO to electric, they just don't think they are ready for the mainstream market (where they sell most of their cars) just yet. They build PHEV vehicles, that can run a short distance on electric alone, so they are keeping up with the technology and could build fully electric cars in the very near future. 

The battery technology is probably the sticking point. You don't expect a scrap a Toyota after 10 years because the battery is stuffed. Solve that issue with new battery tech and they could roll out electric Corollas and Camrys next year. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: AK Newbie on February 03, 2021, 02:22:40 AM
Sandy Munro just interviewed Elon Musk on his YouTube channel today.  Incredibly candid discussion between two incredible engineers on EV's and a few other topics.  Cannot believe anyone with YouTube can be a party to this discussion.  A must see...

Elon Musk Interview: 1-on-1 with Sandy Munro - YouTube (https://youtu.be/YAtLTLiqNwg)  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Trackerbuddy on February 03, 2021, 10:03:19 AM
I think a good comparison is the Ford Model “T” and the Tesla Model 3.  EV technology today is where we were with internal combustion in 1908.  Keep in mind Henry Ford sold 15 million Model T’s in the 20 years it was in production 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 03, 2021, 10:24:08 AM
its a backhoe and a shovel.  or a harvester and a chainsaw.  


getting a backhoe doesn't mean you suddenly toss your shovel.  getting a cutter doesn't mean you toss all your chains and screnches and gas cans.  some day the backhoe is gonna let you down and the shovel will still be there waiting to save your butt. is it good to have a backhoe or a cutter?  absolutely.  you can still succeed or still fail with any of these things. its just whatever.  a different whatever for everyone. put your money wherever you want and don't worry about the other guy.  if you're model can't succeed without finding someone who will force everyone else to change against their will and adopt what you want them to adopt by some notion in your head, well you're just a selfish a-hole.  fences make good neighbors, so keep your eyes inside your own. 


thats just a happy life strategy, not an attack on anyone specific. I've been the a-hole plenty of times, we are all susceptible. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 03, 2021, 10:56:49 AM
Yes mike that is the key.  The market should be left to decide and if someone doesn’t like the changes they don’t have to buy on board.  Lots of people dont have computers and are just fine.  Some still don’t have cell phones.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 03, 2021, 10:58:39 AM
I think a good comparison is the Ford Model “T” and the Tesla Model 3.  EV technology today is where we were with internal combustion in 1908.  Keep in mind Henry Ford sold 15 million Model T’s in the 20 years it was in production
Great comparison.  And amazing since there were what, 100 million people in the USA ?  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 03, 2021, 11:06:36 AM
Sandy Munro just interviewed Elon Musk on his YouTube channel today.  Incredibly candid discussion between two incredible engineers on EV's and a few other topics.  Cannot believe anyone with YouTube can be a party to this discussion.  A must see...

Elon Musk Interview: 1-on-1 with Sandy Munro - YouTube (https://youtu.be/YAtLTLiqNwg)  
I strongly agree.  Simply amazing to see Elon and sandy having very frank discussion on issues and challenges and the future.    Like Evs or dislike Evs or undecided this is simply a fascinating talk .  
Sandy had been a critic of the first model 3 from a manufacturing point of view, he thought it could have been done much better.  He loved the Y and his tear downs on the Y are spiking huge  interest in engineering.  Best advertising for the engineering profession in years and years
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 03, 2021, 11:19:47 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47446/D6C22B05-B40A-479B-8B7B-F473667458DF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1612412370)
 The future
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 04, 2021, 06:36:02 AM
An article about computer chip shortage forcing auto plant shutdowns. The tidbit that caught my eye was that the computer chips accounted for 40% of the manufacturing cost of a vehicle.

A critical shortage of computer chips could cost automakers billions this year - now a group of Senators wants the White House to step in (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/a-critical-shortage-of-computer-chips-could-cost-automakers-billions-this-year-now-a-group-of-senators-wants-the-white-house-to-step-in/ar-BB1d96qf?ocid=msedgdhp)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 04, 2021, 07:12:37 AM
That reminds me that Tesla has a big problem with some of their control systems where the chips are wearing out from being flashed over too many times. It was in the news last year. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 04, 2021, 09:10:26 AM
They solved that by bringing chip design in house, the chips they use are completely different than that from everyone else.  

In fact the lean design guys think Tesla is far more than 5 years ahead.  

Model Y E39: Spoiler Alert! Sandy Talks About Electronics, Body Controllers & Steering Rack - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOjvYOEaja4)

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 04, 2021, 09:15:06 AM
I wonder the source for the chips? Robert Noyce in the late 70's stepped down from the head of Intel to be head of the Semi-conductor Industry Association and Semitech to help save the semiconductor industry in the USA.

This Leslie Berlin video says a bit at the last 3rd, but the whole video is worth watching.

"Robert Noyce: The Man Behind the Microchip" - Leslie... - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp4-5nYqBL8&t=1280s)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 04, 2021, 09:18:42 AM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47446/D6C22B05-B40A-479B-8B7B-F473667458DF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1612412370)
 The future
dont I wish my wife would push the wheel barrow.  Lucky man there  :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 04, 2021, 09:23:36 AM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47446/D6C22B05-B40A-479B-8B7B-F473667458DF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1612412370)
 The future
dont I wish my wife would push the wheel barrow.  Lucky man there  :D
The sad part is I can see the reality of something like this coming true but we won’t have a gas generator then what?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: PoginyHill on February 04, 2021, 10:04:26 AM
The electric lawn mower pic is akin to Vermont's (and other states/municipalities) ban of plastic grocery bags. We had used those for trash can liners. Now I have to buy plastic bags to replace what I had "recycled" for free.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Nebraska on February 04, 2021, 10:08:34 AM
You will have two mules toting a wagon with large active solar arrays and a converter system to get your 1.5 kw to run a little mower. Then  have a  large cord short enough as to not allow for voltage drop to keep the system efficient enough to work.  A back pack sized unit won't collect enough sunshine to make Gene Gene's mowing machine go.   ;)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 04, 2021, 10:13:29 AM
Here is a company making electric tractors, I don't like all the computers but specs sound OK as far as compact utility tractor stuff goes:https://www.monarchtractor.com/
Peak Power
70 Horse Power

Operation time
10+Hours

Starting at
$50k USD

3 Point Hitch
Catagory I/II

540 RPM PTO

2200 lb Lift Capacity

Driverless Modes Included

360º camera views
Full Situational Awareness

12 Gal Per min Hydraulics

4–5 hrs Charge time at 220 V


4 Wheel Drive Optional


10 Year Battery Warranty
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 04, 2021, 10:18:40 AM
Fendt e100 looks much better than whatever that Monarch thing is. 80% charge in 40min and much heavier duty Fendt e100 Vario | Fendt FutureFarm - Fendt (https://www.fendt.com/us/e100-vario)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 04, 2021, 10:25:52 AM
Mules will be permitted, but Oxen subject to a bovine flattuence tax.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 04, 2021, 11:55:54 AM
Chinese new year, of the Ox!   8)   :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Crusarius on February 04, 2021, 11:57:38 AM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47446/D6C22B05-B40A-479B-8B7B-F473667458DF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1612412370)
 The future
dont I wish my wife would push the wheel barrow.  Lucky man there  :D
The sad part is I can see the reality of something like this coming true but we won’t have a gas generator then what?
500' extension cord :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 04, 2021, 11:59:22 AM
Wow what will those crackpot tweed smokers at John Deere come up with next?

Deere Joint Tests First Electric-Powered Backhoe with National Grid (https://www.deere.com/en/our-company/news-and-announcements/news-releases/2021/construction/2021jan06-electric-powered-backhoe/)

Quote
• John Deere is working with National Grid, an electricity, natural gas, and clean energy delivery company, to joint test its electric backhoe concept.
• The John Deere-developed backhoe will be used on National Grid jobsites, proving out the concept to help further enhance and improve the electric vehicle design.
Moline, IL (Jan. 6, 2021) — John Deere, a leading manufacturer of construction equipment, and
National Grid (https://www.nationalgridus.com/NY-Home/Default.aspx), an electricity, natural gas, and clean energy delivery company serving more than 20 million people throughout the Northeast, will joint test an electric backhoe concept. The John Deere developed, battery-powered, electric vehicle design – referred to as E-Power – will target the ease of operation and performance level of the diesel-powered, 100 HP 310L Backhoe (https://www.deere.com/en/loaders/backhoes/). The design is intended to provide substantially lower daily operating costs, lower jobsite noise, enhanced machine reliability, and zero tailpipe emissions.
“We are excited to work with National Grid, a leader in promoting clean energy solutions, to test the John Deere electric backhoe design in real-world conditions,” said Jason Daly, global director, production systems, technology and marketing, John Deere. “John Deere is committed to developing innovative, robustly tested, and reliable equipment for our customers, unlocking measurable value through the incorporation of smart technology solutions in our machines. This project is another stepping stone in our backhoe innovation journey, intended to lead to subsequent electrification testing and design refinement.”
The testing period will enable National Grid to expand its use of electric equipment on jobsites, reaffirming its commitment to leading the industry in the use of clean and resilient energy solutions.
“National Grid is one of only two energy companies in the US to add electric backhoes to their fleets,” said Badar Khan, President, National Grid, US. “We are excited to work with John Deere to take an important step in electrifying our company vehicles, which could be revolutionary for our industry. Decarbonizing transportation remains a challenge in the journey to net zero and we’re hopeful that bringing on more electrified heavy-duty vehicles and equipment will help us make significant progress.”
John Deere is in early Phase I development of its electric backhoe. To learn more about the John Deere backhoe lineup, visit
www.JohnDeere.com (https://www.deere.com/en/index.html).


Vehicle Electrification | John Deere US (https://www.deere.com/en/engines-and-drivetrain/vehicle-electrification/)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 04, 2021, 12:00:49 PM
you will need a plug in the middle of the yard, and let you electric self propelled mower go, and it will mow in circle to the middle as the cord wraps around the pole in the middle with the plug.  Keep the kids inside.   :)

Lawn Mower on Rope / Lawn Mowing Hack - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmCQkosIa2k)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 04, 2021, 12:36:30 PM
I wonder the source for the chips? Robert Noyce in the late 70's stepped down from the head of Intel to be head of the Semi-conductor Industry Association and Semitech to help save the semiconductor industry in the USA.

This Leslie Berlin video says a bit at the last 3rd, but the whole video is worth watching.

"Robert Noyce: The Man Behind the Microchip" - Leslie... - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp4-5nYqBL8&t=1280s)
Hey Noyce job robert keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 04, 2021, 12:57:41 PM
You guys are proving over and over again that government does not have a clue of the problems that real people face in this world and absolutely do NOT have the answers or solutions to the problems. The marketplace is the only source of solutions and government edicts can only be a guide but not a rule in finding solutions. Those government idiots like John Kerry even think they are exempt from following their own rules when they go flying around the world in their private jets.

If we actually did go to all electric power, where would the power come from? The power grid is already operating at capacity, we are shutting down nuclear power plants all over the country and both solar and wind power are intermittent by nature. Just imagine what will happen if we get a bunch of cloudy days with little wind. Do we put our lives on hold while we wait for the power to come back on? 

U.S. energy facts explained  (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/)

(https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/)In 2019 eighty percent of our energy came from underground in fossil fuels. The actual breakdown is petroleum at 37%, natural gas at 32%, and coal at 11%. Renewables at 11% and nuclear at 8% round out the total. 

What's even more telling is currently 91% of the energy for transportation comes from petroleum and less than 1% comes from electricity. It would take about twice as much electric power plant capacity to replace petroleum with electricity for transportation plus a doubling of power grid capacity. Can anyone even imagine shutting down refineries and building more power plants for electric transportation vehicles? And exactly what are the power plants going to use for energy? 

Insanity is the word best used to describe the electric vehicle goals for the near future.    
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 04, 2021, 01:19:06 PM
You guys are proving over and over again that government does not have a clue of the problems that real people face in this world and absolutely do NOT have the answers or solutions to the problems. The marketplace is the only source of solutions and government edicts can only be a guide but not a rule in finding solutions. Those government idiots like John Kerry even think they are exempt from following their own rules when they go flying around the world in their private jets.

If we actually did go to all electric power, where would the power come from? The power grid is already operating at capacity, we are shutting down nuclear power plants all over the country and both solar and wind power are intermittent by nature. Just imagine what will happen if we get a bunch of cloudy days with little wind. Do we put our lives on hold while we wait for the power to come back on?

U.S. energy facts explained  (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/)

(https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/)In 2019 eighty percent of our energy came from underground in fossil fuels. The actual breakdown is petroleum at 37%, natural gas at 32%, and coal at 11%. Renewables at 11% and nuclear at 8% round out the total.

What's even more telling is currently 91% of the energy for transportation comes from petroleum and less than 1% comes from electricity. It would take about twice as much electric power plant capacity to replace petroleum with electricity for transportation plus a doubling of power grid capacity. Can anyone even imagine shutting down refineries and building more power plants for electric transportation vehicles? And exactly what are the power plants going to use for energy?

Insanity is the word best used to describe the electric vehicle goals for the near future.    
Hi Gary,


The market is trying to find and offer solutions but people mostly seem to want to not take them seriously.


That John Deere press release is about them working with National Grid, who own over 15,000 miles of electric distribution lines in the US and UK as well as "Over 2.4 GW of wind and solar energy projects that are operational or currently under construction" per their website. Obviously they (a private company) feel that there is something to this whole idea or they wouldn't be partnering with John Deere (another private company) to use and promote EVs. They also seem to be doing a lot of EV promotion in general.
As far as where the electricity comes from? I don't claim to have all the answers or even some of them, but it would sure help if people would take some personal responsibility and start producing some of their own power by way of roof top or pole mount solar installations on their own buildings.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 04, 2021, 03:10:56 PM

Hi Gary,

The market is trying to find and offer solutions but people mostly seem to want to not take them seriously.

 I don't claim to have all the answers or even some of them, but it would sure help if people would take some personal responsibility and start producing some of their own power by way of roof top or pole mount solar installations on their own buildings.
As far as not taking them seriously, it's very hard to force people to accept changes they do not demand. In other words, the customer is always right, not the other way around.

As far as personal responsibility, solar alone is far from the answer. The sun does not shine for even half of the day and other factors reduce the utility of that even further. Either we find far more storage ability or we have to have available over twice the energy production capacity of the solar supply. Solar today is only 9% of the 11% supplied by renewables. It's small potatoes in the overall picture.

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 04, 2021, 05:41:07 PM
Kinda of curious about that MN utility that plans to go all renewables and shut down the coal mine.  Whats the scoop there?  Do they have wind assets or?  Is it a play for rate increase?  Curious
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: sharp edge on February 04, 2021, 07:02:03 PM
In 1970's I used 1700 kilowatts a mouth, the bill was $70.00

In 2020 I used 200 kilowatts a mouth, the bill is $70.00 ::) ::)


SE
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 04, 2021, 08:41:13 PM
Electric Powered Riding Lawn Mowers | Cub Cadet US (https://www.cubcadet.com/en_US/riding-lawn-mowers/electric-riding-mowers)

Cub cadet coming out with EV mowers, will join a bunch of others.  The one that looks good to me is the robot mowers. 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Husqvarna-Automower-430XH-18-Volt-9-45-in-Robotic-Lawn-Mower-with-GPS-Assisted-Navigation-1-2-Acre-to-1-Acre/5001521165?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-sol-_-google-_-pla-_--_-soselecmowers-_-5001521165-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrZu_m87R7gIVwRt9Ch0iVA6EEAQYAiABEgLXuvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I think in 3 or 5 years the robots will e accomplished enough to mow our 2 acres and make it back home.  Just need it to  help the sheep.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 04, 2021, 09:05:14 PM
Just be careful the mowbot doesnt shear em for ya too  ;D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 04, 2021, 09:06:06 PM
Just be careful the mowbot doesnt shear em for ya too  ;D
Hey multi purpose tools...
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: barbender on February 04, 2021, 09:13:17 PM
NW, I live near the coal fired plant that is supposed to be shut down. I don't now what their plan is, or if they have a real one for that matter.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 05, 2021, 04:03:16 AM
Kinda of curious about that MN utility that plans to go all renewables and shut down the coal mine.  Whats the scoop there?  Do they have wind assets or?  Is it a play for rate increase?  Curious

I'm not sure which MN utility you are referring to but our MN governor has planned to have carbon free energy in the state by 2050. No one knows if that is possible yet but changes are coming.

As far as the coal plants, they are on their way out already in part because of how cheap and plentiful natural gas is because of all the fracking. However natural gas is cleaner as far as sulfur and CO2 but not carbon free so it is not in the long term plans. The demise of the coal industry started under the Obama administration in spite of his promises to the clean coal people and continued under the Trump administration probably because of the economics of natural gas.

There is a lot of talk about the future of nuclear power plants as they are considered carbon free but we have yet to solve the problem of disposal of nuclear waste. The US is down slightly in numbers of nuclear plants at 96 from a high of 112 in 1990 and only 2 under construction. China currently has 48 with 11 under construction and 31 more planned. However China still only gets 5% of their power from nuclear while the US gets about 20% from nuclear. The other problem in the US with nuclear is the construction time for new plants is over 20 years vs. 5 years in China.

So now the question is how the h are we going to double our electric energy production in 10-15 years all the while eliminating energy from coal, natural gas, oil and no increase from nuclear? Plus many electric utilities are planning to be out of their nuclear energy plants by 2040. 

I say again, it's insanity. Not to get political but there is not a single person in the Biden cabinet that has any industry experience. His transportation secretary was previously a mayor of a city. But they are all diverse.  ::)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 05, 2021, 07:11:44 AM
Oh coal had a lots of ups and downs over the decades.  It had a brief bump  in the 2000s due to exports but frankly Aussie open pit coal seams are much cheaper and indonesia has whole mountains of it.  Both were closer to China and India.  Anyhow, I agree that fracking killed coal and I'm a huge fan or fracking for the USA.  Lots and lots of advantages to ng generation if you can get a pipeline somewhere.  Gave us independece from opec and russia on oil and should have been a godsend for our state dept.  Neither Bush Jr, nor Obama, nor Trump took advantage of it.  Oh well.

I would be really interested in seeing more Fusion work in terms of energy but our traditional nuke fleet really has never delivered, the extra costs were never accounted for and the risk of human error or even basic misunderstanding of the local nature/weather (fukishima was planned to withstand a tidal wave, just not a big enough one).  One firm that did great proactive work was Dominion, they did a risk study that showed some history of minor faults in VA and with one tiny fault zone near a nuke they decided to super harden everything.  In 2011 we had a right decent earthquake with the epicenter only a few miles from the largest nuke in VA.  Not a scratch.  Washington monument had lots of damage, it shocked me at the time, I've been in CA in earthquakes and this was every bit as bad.  Dishes crashing, drywall cracked, etc.  Anyhow..if anyone had anything to do with that and is reading, huge shout out to you.  

Electric cars don't actually require doubling energy, net net an mostly electric fleet would be a huge reduction as the energy going to EVs is a lot less than that used by petrol based fleets.   Little petrol powered vehicles are  just not efficient with very little energy actually going to work, it would be more efficient to just burn the oil in boilers and deliver the stored sunlight to cars to hold in batteries.   There are several utilities in CA, some bankrupt, some profitable, some public.  It's going to be interesting to see how they react in the next few years as the amount of electricity demand grows.  We'll have case studies in what to do and what not to do.  

Texas is another state with a quandary.  Already electricity is basically free at night due to wind.  That has driven a bunch of NG peaker plants into bankruptcy, even brand new plants.  Solar is starting to blow up in TX, it's a state that could be 100% renewable faster than anyone due to some interesting factors like sun/wind combo and an isolated grid that stops exports/imports.  Anyway, solar could exceed wind in TX in a 10 years.  Tesla moved to Austin for newest and largest facility, I'd kind of count on TX EV ownership soaring and renewable energy soaring. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skip on February 05, 2021, 08:25:02 AM
Does any one REALY think Russia and China (CCP) and for that matter India are gonna go all electric ? ::)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Tacotodd on February 05, 2021, 08:30:06 AM
I’d be willing to bet that they would wait until AFTER it’s already to late. That way they can just “clone” from “people”, meaning us, that have already had the growing pains from R&D.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: snowstorm on February 05, 2021, 08:32:02 AM
you dont get it wolf. half the country is hated by the elites. they know better than the rest of us. so we will pay for it. someone mentioned the new head of the dot. this will be a wild ride. expect more trucking rules. a new under ride bumper for the rear and sides of trailers. new emission regs that cant be met with out lots of new research and cash. maybe changing the hsr again. when the price of everything you buy goes up.. thank the big guy
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 05, 2021, 08:33:27 AM
Does any one REALY think Russia and China (CCP) and for that matter India are gonna go all electric ? ::)
CHina yes, of course.  The wind and solar potential in China is huge and they are building cheap nukes like no one's business.  They have no oil or gas to speak of.  They have coal but it is expensive.  
India has the largest growth in solar in the world.   Just massive multi gigawatt plants getting built or have just come on.  They too have very little gas and oil.  They are a basket case of regs so it will take longer than China.
Russia .  NO
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 05, 2021, 09:15:02 AM
you dont get it wolf. half the country is hated by the elites. they know better than the rest of us. so we will pay for it. someone mentioned the new head of the dot. this will be a wild ride. expect more trucking rules. a new under ride bumper for the rear and sides of trailers. new emission regs that cant be met with out lots of new research and cash. maybe changing the hsr again. when the price of everything you buy goes up.. thank the big guy
They don't hate us Snowstorm.  They just don't think we matter :D.

Funny story, I live in a pretty conservative county on the edge of a lot of growth.  65% trump support or something.  So we want to mill fence boards on our property with logs we cut from land we manage....not so fast according to my neighbors with trump signs.  Spent a whole week on this mess, all day yesterday to boot.  BLAH BLAH BLAH We'll disturb their evening grilling, or fill pools with sawdust, on and on.  Special hearing got continued to next month.   Basically it doesn't matter who's in power, they don't care about people who work.  


I found out what neighbors are hypocrites though.  For that alone it is useful, I had wanted to get some pigs but was worried the noise would disturb some neighbors.  Now I don't have that worry.   :D  The two neighbors that were stridently or sneakily opposed are the two I had worried about, no more worries.  
We'll get the mill going because the county zoning board is on thin ice but still, we lost a month and it is expensive.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 05, 2021, 09:25:59 AM
No - they do hate us, think they are better than us, and think we are disposable.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 05, 2021, 09:30:55 AM
@Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) 
A good way to describe how they think of us is Surfs.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: snowstorm on February 05, 2021, 09:44:43 AM
thats funny wolf thinks he is on our side. i dont think so. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 05, 2021, 09:58:34 AM
thats funny wolf thinks he is on our side. i dont think so.
A lot more than half the country is hated by the elites on both sides of the fence, they are just all really good at getting us to fight amongst ourselves like this ^^^^^ rather than banding together.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 05, 2021, 10:44:02 AM
Let's NOT start an our side / their side internally within the Forum. We can agree to disagree and then pursue the path we each support for ourselves. No shooting in the tent. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 05, 2021, 01:08:46 PM
Case 580EV : CASE 580 EV - The Industry's First Fully Electric Backhoe Loader | CASE Construction Equipment (https://www.casece.com/northamerica/en-us/products/backhoe-loaders/580ev-project-zeus)

Looks nice, and I'm partial to Case 580 over the JD backhoes that I've run in the past ;D


Also cute little 2ton JCB mini excavator: https://www.jcb.com/en-us/products/compact-excavators/19c-1e
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 05, 2021, 06:45:56 PM
What size solar setup would you need to charge that little kubota and is it something the average small farm could afford at this point?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 05, 2021, 07:00:25 PM
What size solar setup would you need to charge that little kubota and is it something the average small farm could afford at this point?
most of the smaller EVs and this type of equipment are charging on a 110 but could charge faster on a 220. 

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 05, 2021, 07:26:40 PM
you dont get it wolf. half the country is hated by the elites. they know better than the rest of us. so we will pay for it. someone mentioned the new head of the dot. this will be a wild ride. expect more trucking rules. a new under ride bumper for the rear and sides of trailers. new emission regs that cant be met with out lots of new research and cash. maybe changing the hsr again. when the price of everything you buy goes up.. thank the big guy
They don't hate us Snowstorm.  They just don't think we matter :D.

Funny story, I live in a pretty conservative county on the edge of a lot of growth.  65% trump support or something.  So we want to mill fence boards on our property with logs we cut from land we manage....not so fast according to my neighbors with trump signs.  Spent a whole week on this mess, all day yesterday to boot.  BLAH BLAH BLAH We'll disturb their evening grilling, or fill pools with sawdust, on and on.  Special hearing got continued to next month.   Basically it doesn't matter who's in power, they don't care about people who work.  


I found out what neighbors are hypocrites though.  For that alone it is useful, I had wanted to get some pigs but was worried the noise would disturb some neighbors.  Now I don't have that worry.   :D  The two neighbors that were stridently or sneakily opposed are the two I had worried about, no more worries.  
We'll get the mill going because the county zoning board is on thin ice but still, we lost a month and it is expensive.
Air and water quality. One spec of dust leaves your property line you are responsible for mitigation. If you have a connected neighbor or a zealous water quality inspector you might as well sign the title of your farm over now. NPDES storm water permit violations can land you a 6 figure fine and serious jail time for non-compliance back to the day you unloaded your first log if they later determine you needed a permit.  Don't forget to keep records of the double calibration of your PH meter, chain of custody for your water samples or documentation of training to be qualified to sample the storm water. Been there done that on a log yard in a county that has no zoning and a site with no stream to sample. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 05, 2021, 07:26:46 PM


Quote
most of the smaller EVs and this type of equipment are charging on a 110 but could charge faster on a 220.



How many panels would that be for an overnight 8/12 hour charge?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 05, 2021, 07:41:50 PM
you dont get it wolf. half the country is hated by the elites. they know better than the rest of us. so we will pay for it. someone mentioned the new head of the dot. this will be a wild ride. expect more trucking rules. a new under ride bumper for the rear and sides of trailers. new emission regs that cant be met with out lots of new research and cash. maybe changing the hsr again. when the price of everything you buy goes up.. thank the big guy
They don't hate us Snowstorm.  They just don't think we matter :D.

Funny story, I live in a pretty conservative county on the edge of a lot of growth.  65% trump support or something.  So we want to mill fence boards on our property with logs we cut from land we manage....not so fast according to my neighbors with trump signs.  Spent a whole week on this mess, all day yesterday to boot.  BLAH BLAH BLAH We'll disturb their evening grilling, or fill pools with sawdust, on and on.  Special hearing got continued to next month.   Basically it doesn't matter who's in power, they don't care about people who work.  


I found out what neighbors are hypocrites though.  For that alone it is useful, I had wanted to get some pigs but was worried the noise would disturb some neighbors.  Now I don't have that worry.   :D  The two neighbors that were stridently or sneakily opposed are the two I had worried about, no more worries.  
We'll get the mill going because the county zoning board is on thin ice but still, we lost a month and it is expensive.
Air and water quality. One spec of dust leaves your property line you are responsible for mitigation. If you have a connected neighbor or a zealous water quality inspector you might as well sign the title of your farm over now. NPDES storm water permit violations can land you a 6 figure fine and serious jail time for non-compliance back to the day you unloaded your first log if they later determine you needed a permit.  Don't forget to keep records of the double calibration of your PH meter, chain of custody for your water samples or documentation of training to be qualified to sample the storm water. Been there done that on a log yard in a county that has no zoning and a site with no stream to sample.
Going to be spending $300 renting a professional certified sound meter, thanks @Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) !  Found a company over in MD renting and he agreed to set it up properly once we get him all the specs used by the county.   We'll go ahead and test our forwarder and skidsteer for our own purposes.
The right to farm here is pretty decent.  The problem is that it does not mention portable sawing.  I actually have a meeting with the two farmers that pushed to get the law amended a few years ago.  One wants to be a client but I've not been able to accept him til we go mechanical harvesting, just too backed up.  Personally I see not much difference in portable sawing and selling rough green lumber and running a combine.  Both are a primary processing of a product.  Both are mobile.  We'll see, that might be a long effort but some law firms do this pro bono.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 05, 2021, 07:45:23 PM


Quote
most of the smaller EVs and this type of equipment are charging on a 110 but could charge faster on a 220.



How many panels would that be for an overnight 8/12 hour charge?
Just plug into the barn.  If you want to charge off solar you'd need a separate battery to store that.  A tesla powerwall would do it but as to how many panels it would depend.  Maybe better job for a windmill.  If you are outwest the nightly winds are really good, a small windmill could easily do it.  Easiest to just plug into the barn in evening and use the solar power to power the house in the daytime and feed excess into the grid.

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 05, 2021, 08:24:13 PM


Quote
most of the smaller EVs and this type of equipment are charging on a 110 but could charge faster on a 220.



How many panels would that be for an overnight 8/12 hour charge?
Just plug into the barn.  If you want to charge off solar you'd need a separate battery to store that.  A tesla powerwall would do it but as to how many panels it would depend.  Maybe better job for a windmill.  If you are outwest the nightly winds are really good, a small windmill could easily do it.  Easiest to just plug into the barn in evening and use the solar power to power the house in the daytime and feed excess into the grid.
The problem is there’s time you leave a piece of equipment is this case a tractor in the field overnight not everything comes home every night. Have you seen the custom cutting operations that’s a great example of where charging will not work you’re in an area say a week then moving again possibly a state or two away in the PNW. Here the biggest question how do we charge this kind of equipment that doesn’t leave a remote site? 
Just a side note I’ll leave a machine in the brush especially in the winter if it doesn’t need fuel overnight to finish an area out vs walking it to the road. How do you charge something that’s in a dense stand of timber that in day light is completely shaded?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 05, 2021, 08:49:41 PM
I agree that is not a wonderful system at all and totally depends on dino or grid to function.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 06, 2021, 07:47:37 AM
Obviously someone is going to make some $ when they figure it out.  But I agree with @Skeans1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37446) that right now the use case for EV Heavy Equipment is for barnyard or equipment yards or construction sites that have the meter dropped.  That's a lot of use cases for a little mini ex type of machine.  That's why the heavy equipment guys are focusing there first (my guess).  I did not know there were any before Mike started the thread and now I see a good handful.  The Slovak company is interested in selling the skidsteer into the US.  Very responsive.  

But these are simply the same comments that have been around electric vehicles forever, especially around Tesla in 2005 when they started showing what they were doing (and that was simply a takeoff on a proof of concept by a not for profit).  Ford, GM, Toyota, VW, BMW, etc etc, big oil ad naeseum.  In fact you heard them all the way through 2017, then the technical commentary faded to be replaced by skepticism of financials- that they could not raise enough money to grow fast enough to meet that crazy 2021 target of 500k vehicles.  Everyone said it would not work, they would all catch on fire, you couldn't charge, no demand for evs, etc etc etc.  Every complaint or concern mentioned here has been mentioned before.  So, my view is that someone will solve the heavy equipment challenge as well.  As battery density increases and costs decrease the challenge shrinks.  I'm not an engineer
@Skeans1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37446) @Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199) I am just a forester that is very interested in "green" infrastructure, engineering in general, and who likes to talk about new ideas.  Not fascinated by the past, that's why it is the past and not the future.  The future I find fascinating but I've found that if you sit still it tends to whop you.  So, move.  Americans are great at moving.  What is very interesting right now is that clearly the future is going to be an electric drivetrain.   How that gets into heavy equipment will be something to watch, either the big companies get moving or someone like that slovak company will end up the Tesla of heavy equipment.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: reelman65 on February 06, 2021, 08:15:44 AM
As a 55 you old, the future has been very disappointing so far. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 06, 2021, 08:46:34 AM
   What is very interesting right now is that clearly the future is going to be an electric drivetrain.   How that gets into heavy equipment will be something to watch, either the big companies get moving or someone like that slovak company will end up the Tesla of heavy equipment.
I am an engineer by training and somewhat a "technology nut" that is always willing to accept new innovation. However I have been around long enough to know that you cannot force innovation in one direction only and right now that one direction is electric propulsion. I understand that for the present that personnel transportation will most likely move toward electric/battery propulsion systems but to focus everything on that technology exclusively and suppress other energy solutions will prevent the "beam me up" ideas that will be necessary in the future.

There is simply no clear path for electric/battery systems in such areas as heavy construction, logging, over the road transportation, ships, trains and airplanes where much of the energy is consumed today. There is such a thing called "energy density" that will rule those energy uses in the future but for now oil still wins that battle. We already have electric propulsion in trains, ships and large mining equipment but for now they are still tied to a diesel engine. 

Have you forgotten (or maybe not old enough to remember) that was it not for a $6 ball bearing and arbitrary regulations that today we might have had gas turbine engines instead of internal combustion engines for propulsion in our vehicles?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 06, 2021, 09:29:13 AM
Americans are great at moving but they are terrible at being content with what they have.  Thats why the market is big enough for hundreds of anti-depressant medications and $90k pickup trucks.  


EV will be here soon but people will still say the sky is falling, the planet is dying oh my. Then pop another xanax and youtube for the cure.   



Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 06, 2021, 10:31:43 AM
There's always been a few innovators followed behind by those that say it can't be done, until they are shown it is being done. There's also tons of scammers to. :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 06, 2021, 01:36:38 PM
as well.  As battery density increases and costs decrease the challenge shrinks.  I'm not an engineer @Skeans1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37446) @Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199) I am just a forester that is very interested in "green" infrastructure, engineering in general, and who likes to talk about new ideas.  Not fascinated by the past, that's why it is the past and not the future.  
I'm interested in the past and future because there is nothing new under the sun and those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Hitler might have learned from Napoleon but I'm glad he didn't.
When computers first came out I had family members and accountants,lawyers,banks atc that we used that relied on them as computers evolved in the free market and at the time didn't need to and wasn't forced to purchase one by government. When it was time to purchase a mill I found the forestry forum and lurked a year or two before joining and asking questions and now own several computers at our business and have another personal at home plus my phone.
Personal choice no gun to the head.
If and when solar and wind look like they will be able to unhook from the petroleum and nuclear grid and stand on their own it will be a wonderful day as we will have another choice of energy but now it is dependant on petro for the energy to mine and manufacture all the components and transport as well as disposal of waste.
So right now it reminds me of a machine I saw when I was around ten years old where a man at a fair inserted a blank piece of paper into a small machine and out came a dollar bill! I couldn't get my money out of my pocket fast enough to buy one, thankfully my dad intervened and lesson learned  :D
Maybe a better energy will come along in the meantime or solar and wind might mature and stand on it's own but right now it's like a wobbly newborn calf that needs mama's milk and protection.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10199/print-money-maker1-cute-red-old-machineopt.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612634897)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 06, 2021, 02:06:35 PM
As a 55 you old, the future has been very disappointing so far.
??? ???     "so far." 

Please tell us exactly what about the future that you can foresee that is disappointing.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on February 06, 2021, 03:07:51 PM
Seems like all or nothing is not going to work for a long while if ever,  You got the dreamers and the naysayers but like a lot of things the answer lies somewhere in the middle, one solution won't fit all situations but not trying to progress would probably be a mistake.  Model T's are neat but I'm glad to be driving something newer.

I now have a little Rav4 and a old dodge 1500 work truck, I mostly use the Rav4 for everything that does not require a truck (larger items and snowplowing) so in my situation a electric vehicle would suit my needs 95% of the time or more, mostly short trips of 1 to 10 kms, occasional 60-80km and a few 300-600 km per year (not this year). With todays technology if I had some grid tie solar panels putting in the grid during the day at peek grid usage and charging the vehicle during off peek hours I bet I could have little to no "fuel" cost in the run of a year. Even without the panels and using time of day metering the cost would be minimal and there would be no needed extra grid upgrade. The only thing holding me back is vehicle cost vs savings as I don't put enough miles on a vehicle to make it worth my while money wise. Hopefully that will change in time.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 06, 2021, 03:13:15 PM
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=15929.msg228001#msg228001

This post is in a thread here on FF on alternate energy from 2006 and is worth reading again. When I was still logging we worked alongside a company that was putting in independent hydro power projects on large creeks in our chart area. At that time there were six 30MW plants built in our area and I was involved with some road building and blasting. They had more on the slate further down Harrison Lake and other areas.
The potential for smaller hydro projects in our area and the PNW is worth looking into and many private landowners could contribute also.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 06, 2021, 04:00:03 PM
As a 55 you old, the future has been very disappointing so far.
??? ???     "so far."

Please tell us exactly what about the future that you can foresee that is disappointing.
I think bruce is talking about the future we are already looking back at.   
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 06, 2021, 04:32:23 PM
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=15929.msg228001#msg228001

This post is in a thread here on FF on alternate energy from 2006 and is worth reading again. When I was still logging we worked alongside a company that was putting in independent hydro power projects on large creeks in our chart area. At that time there were six 30MW plants built in our area and I was involved with some road building and blasting. They had more on the slate further down Harrison Lake and other areas.
The potential for smaller hydro projects in our area and the PNW is worth looking into and many private landowners could contribute also.
The problem we’ve been having in PNW is the same people pushing electric everything are the same people wanting to get rid of the hydro dams.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 06, 2021, 05:01:47 PM
Funny how that works,isn't it?  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 06, 2021, 05:55:41 PM
@Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199) 
The joke out there is the people in the city think everything can run on fairy dust or unicorn farts.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 06, 2021, 07:39:15 PM
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=15929.msg228001#msg228001

This post is in a thread here on FF on alternate energy from 2006 and is worth reading again. When I was still logging we worked alongside a company that was putting in independent hydro power projects on large creeks in our chart area. At that time there were six 30MW plants built in our area and I was involved with some road building and blasting. They had more on the slate further down Harrison Lake and other areas.
The potential for smaller hydro projects in our area and the PNW is worth looking into and many private landowners could contribute also.
The problem we’ve been having in PNW is the same people pushing electric everything are the same people wanting to get rid of the hydro dams.
If you get rid of hydro how will all the data centers run?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 06, 2021, 07:47:53 PM
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=15929.msg228001#msg228001

This post is in a thread here on FF on alternate energy from 2006 and is worth reading again. When I was still logging we worked alongside a company that was putting in independent hydro power projects on large creeks in our chart area. At that time there were six 30MW plants built in our area and I was involved with some road building and blasting. They had more on the slate further down Harrison Lake and other areas.
The potential for smaller hydro projects in our area and the PNW is worth looking into and many private landowners could contribute also.
Small scale hydro is interesting.  When I hiked across most of Norway the most interesting thing to see was not really the Fjords or even the just amazing blondes but the glaciers and turbines...EVERYWHERE.  I mean there were high powered transmission lines everywhere.  Sometime after mid summers eve I had hiked up a mountain to a glacier, nearly stepped on some snow ptarmigen so I was watching for more and then finally looked out and low and behold I was staring at high powered transmission lines like a plate a spaghetti.  It was quite a site, some big glacial streams and 3k' of drop in 1/2 mile so the head was amazing.  Almost no dams, just in line turbines.  
So much hydro in Norway that they are a huge part of the unified EU power system, forcing some nukes off the market for months.  I think after some transmission line work they actually decided to close a Swedish nuke because of all the excess power.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 06, 2021, 07:49:39 PM
Seems like all or nothing is not going to work for a long while if ever,  You got the dreamers and the naysayers but like a lot of things the answer lies somewhere in the middle, one solution won't fit all situations but not trying to progress would probably be a mistake.  Model T's are neat but I'm glad to be driving something newer.

I now have a little Rav4 and a old dodge 1500 work truck, I mostly use the Rav4 for everything that does not require a truck (larger items and snowplowing) so in my situation a electric vehicle would suit my needs 95% of the time or more, mostly short trips of 1 to 10 kms, occasional 60-80km and a few 300-600 km per year (not this year). With todays technology if I had some grid tie solar panels putting in the grid during the day at peek grid usage and charging the vehicle during off peek hours I bet I could have little to no "fuel" cost in the run of a year. Even without the panels and using time of day metering the cost would be minimal and there would be no needed extra grid upgrade. The only thing holding me back is vehicle cost vs savings as I don't put enough miles on a vehicle to make it worth my while money wise. Hopefully that will change in time.
Yep lots of people like you, I'm one.  I need the cyber truck to drop in price so I'll be delayed in accepting my truck.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 06, 2021, 07:54:56 PM
as well.  As battery density increases and costs decrease the challenge shrinks.  I'm not an engineer @Skeans1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37446) @Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199) I am just a forester that is very interested in "green" infrastructure, engineering in general, and who likes to talk about new ideas.  Not fascinated by the past, that's why it is the past and not the future.  
I'm interested in the past and future because there is nothing new under the sun and those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Hitler might have learned from Napoleon but I'm glad he didn't.
When computers first came out I had family members and accountants,lawyers,banks atc that we used that relied on them as computers evolved in the free market and at the time didn't need to and wasn't forced to purchase one by government. When it was time to purchase a mill I found the forestry forum and lurked a year or two before joining and asking questions and now own several computers at our business and have another personal at home plus my phone.
Personal choice no gun to the head.
If and when solar and wind look like they will be able to unhook from the petroleum and nuclear grid and stand on their own it will be a wonderful day as we will have another choice of energy but now it is dependant on petro for the energy to mine and manufacture all the components and transport as well as disposal of waste.
So right now it reminds me of a machine I saw when I was around ten years old where a man at a fair inserted a blank piece of paper into a small machine and out came a dollar bill! I couldn't get my money out of my pocket fast enough to buy one, thankfully my dad intervened and lesson learned  :D
Maybe a better energy will come along in the meantime or solar and wind might mature and stand on it's own but right now it's like a wobbly newborn calf that needs mama's milk and protection.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10199/print-money-maker1-cute-red-old-machineopt.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612634897)

Hmm, my take on that is that is solar pre 2018.  New solar, no subsidy, is cheaper than new NG.  At that point it is not new and wobbly.  That's why last year we did not commission a single new fossil fuel plant in the US for an entire quarter this year.  Solar is just cheap, no moving parts. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 06, 2021, 08:08:17 PM
As was pointed out a couple of times you are 100 percent addicted to dino and so is solar at this point in time. I love Norway and have many relatives in the SW and we go over there and they come here for visits. Their freedom comes from oil. When my grandparents left there in the the early 1920's it was a bleak life of goats and sheep.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: pineywoods on February 06, 2021, 08:44:05 PM
I wonder why there has been no mention of diesel electric. Would make sense for forestry equipment. Works good on railroad locomotives,earth movers, heavy duty mining equipment and submarines.  A skidder or forwarder with diesel genset and electric drive -no clutch, no torque converter,no complicated transmission,no drive shafts or U joints, no differentials, just an electric motor and planetary in the hub of each wheel. Rumor has it that cat has an electric dozer in the works. When the junkyards have enough ev parts, I can just see a home-made belvin ev skidder.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 06, 2021, 08:57:48 PM
I wonder why there has been no mention of diesel electric. Would make sense for forestry equipment. Works good on railroad locomotives,earth movers, heavy duty mining equipment and submarines.  A skidder or forwarder with diesel genset and electric drive -no clutch, no torque converter,no complicated transmission,no drive shafts or U joints, no differentials, just an electric motor and planetary in the hub of each wheel. Rumor has it that cat has an electric dozer in the works. When the junkyards have enough ev parts, I can just see a home-made belvin ev skidder.
I actually think this is exactly what will happen but there are lots of smart engineers so who knows :).  It will certainly be a good idea to try again after the ones in the 1960s from letourneu.  He was always thinking, neat guy.  He'd have loved Elon Musk, maybe challenged him.  So folks remember, this particular idea has been done.  Just pieces parts were not advanced enough to complete his vision in 1960.

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Stephen1 on February 06, 2021, 11:02:30 PM
Seems like all or nothing is not going to work for a long while if ever,  You got the dreamers and the naysayers but like a lot of things the answer lies somewhere in the middle, one solution won't fit all situations but not trying to progress would probably be a mistake.  Model T's are neat but I'm glad to be driving something newer.

I now have a little Rav4 and a old dodge 1500 work truck, I mostly use the Rav4 for everything that does not require a truck (larger items and snowplowing) so in my situation a electric vehicle would suit my needs 95% of the time or more, mostly short trips of 1 to 10 kms, occasional 60-80km and a few 300-600 km per year (not this year). With todays technology if I had some grid tie solar panels putting in the grid during the day at peek grid usage and charging the vehicle during off peek hours I bet I could have little to no "fuel" cost in the run of a year. Even without the panels and using time of day metering the cost would be minimal and there would be no needed extra grid upgrade. The only thing holding me back is vehicle cost vs savings as I don't put enough miles on a vehicle to make it worth my while money wise. Hopefully that will change in time.
Yep lots of people like you, I'm one.  I need the cyber truck to drop in price so I'll be delayed in accepting my truck.
I am waiting for an electric truck. I have an 13 year old Toyota, 250,000 miles and runs nice, doesn't look so nice. I ordered a new tailgate and rear bumper, its going into the shop for a paint job. I am hoping I get 3 more years out it and the EV pick up is mainstream by the time it dies.
 I will put up panels on my roof, 45 Degree roof that faces south west, it will hold 50 2x4 PV panels, feed the grid during the day and summer time, and charge the vheicles at night. Our NET metering plan lets us hold a credit for 11 months.
This is where a lot of electric generation will come from, homes and factory roofs. The PV solar fields are not my favourite, but acceptable to me.  The windmills are horrible blights on our landscape will die a slow death, They are ugly and never should have been built.
I just read this post and so here is my 2 cents
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 06, 2021, 11:11:14 PM
So lets look at some numbers shall we?  For arguments sake we can safely assume that a hot saw would burn 75 gallons of diesel fuel in a 10 hour day of operation.  Want to gander a guess at how many KWH of electricity that equates to? 3,056.57 KWH, so I will round it down to 3,000 KWH worth of power that same machine would need to perform the same work.  

Now a 2021 Tesla Model 3 battery holds a whopping 82 KWH worth of power, costs $6,500 and weighs 1300 lbs.  Which means that the battery to run the buncher for a day would weigh 47,560 lbs and cost $237,804.  I suppose if you can cut 100 loads a day with that machine, then you might be able to make the payment on it, still not sure how you are going to charge that thing, but hey - it's green.  

Before the argument of electric is 100% efficient and diesel isn't comes into play, there is no way you are going to direct drive a hot saw, not without a massive breaker that will trip each time you stall out the saw, so the machine will have hydraulics on it, and will require cooling to deal with those and the massive power dumps the battery would be taking, thus overall efficiency is not going to be the same. 

Ok - not a hot saw, build a skidder.  You still have a 47,000 lb battery that cost over $ 1/4 million and pulls 10 loads of wood a day in perfect conditions, and have not accounted for the rest of the machine.  Oh, by the way I rounded down on the juice needed for the day, by 56 KWH - almost a full Model 3 worth, so the skidder didn't make it back to the landing at the end of the day where the diesel powered recharging generator is sitting.   The concept is DOA.    
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 06, 2021, 11:46:13 PM
I wonder why there has been no mention of diesel electric. Would make sense for forestry equipment. Works good on railroad locomotives,earth movers, heavy duty mining equipment and submarines.  A skidder or forwarder with diesel genset and electric drive -no clutch, no torque converter,no complicated transmission,no drive shafts or U joints, no differentials, just an electric motor and planetary in the hub of each wheel. Rumor has it that cat has an electric dozer in the works. When the junkyards have enough ev parts, I can just see a home-made belvin ev skidder.
I actually think this is exactly what will happen but there are lots of smart engineers so who knows :).  It will certainly be a good idea to try again after the ones in the 1960s from letourneu.  He was always thinking, neat guy.  He'd have loved Elon Musk, maybe challenged him.  So folks remember, this particular idea has been done.  Just pieces parts were not advanced enough to complete his vision in 1960.
Have you ever been around a Letourneu stacker before? They’re slow as a snail to put it nicely we all dread when we get unloaded by them where if it’s a 988 or equal they can do two trucks in the same amount of time as a Letourneu.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: John Mc on February 07, 2021, 12:09:17 AM
In 1970's I used 1700 kilowatts a mouth, the bill was $70.00

In 2020 I used 200 kilowatts a mouth, the bill is $70.00 ::) ::)


SE
To put it in perspective, that's an average rate of increase of 4.43% per year.  Average inflation rate from 1970 to 2020 was 3.80%/year.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: barbender on February 07, 2021, 01:09:46 AM
Piney, Cat has had a production model diesel generator/electric drive dozer for several years now. I think it's one of the D6 models, I can't remember for sure.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 07, 2021, 06:33:00 AM
Seems like all or nothing is not going to work for a long while if ever,  You got the dreamers and the naysayers but like a lot of things the answer lies somewhere in the middle, one solution won't fit all situations but not trying to progress would probably be a mistake.  Model T's are neat but I'm glad to be driving something newer.

I now have a little Rav4 and a old dodge 1500 work truck, I mostly use the Rav4 for everything that does not require a truck (larger items and snowplowing) so in my situation a electric vehicle would suit my needs 95% of the time or more, mostly short trips of 1 to 10 kms, occasional 60-80km and a few 300-600 km per year (not this year). With todays technology if I had some grid tie solar panels putting in the grid during the day at peek grid usage and charging the vehicle during off peek hours I bet I could have little to no "fuel" cost in the run of a year. Even without the panels and using time of day metering the cost would be minimal and there would be no needed extra grid upgrade. The only thing holding me back is vehicle cost vs savings as I don't put enough miles on a vehicle to make it worth my while money wise. Hopefully that will change in time.
Yep lots of people like you, I'm one.  I need the cyber truck to drop in price so I'll be delayed in accepting my truck.
I am waiting for an electric truck. I have an 13 year old Toyota, 250,000 miles and runs nice, doesn't look so nice. I ordered a new tailgate and rear bumper, its going into the shop for a paint job. I am hoping I get 3 more years out it and the EV pick up is mainstream by the time it dies.
 I will put up panels on my roof, 45 Degree roof that faces south west, it will hold 50 2x4 PV panels, feed the grid during the day and summer time, and charge the vheicles at night. Our NET metering plan lets us hold a credit for 11 months.
This is where a lot of electric generation will come from, homes and factory roofs. The PV solar fields are not my favourite, but acceptable to me.  The windmills are horrible blights on our landscape will die a slow death, They are ugly and never should have been built.
I just read this post and so here is my 2 cents
Incorporating solar panels into building design makes perfect sense. I could adapt and might prefer an electric car/pickup truck. Can't see wanting an electric tractor because my tractors live off grid and don't come home at night to plug in

Lots of advances in technology that Musk and his Tesla have incorporated into production of EV'S making the vehicles a reality. Demand is going to increase exponentially on an electric grid whose means of power generation we are "executive ordering" out of existence prior to having built viable alternative infrastructure. Will the fringe folks who protest pipelines not challenge new power lines, power plants, solar fields, wind farms etc. Will the new power plants spring up on time and under budget? I guess we can count on an executive order fix it.  ::)

My electric bill already contains multiple line items and surcharges directly related from dropping coal and switching to natural gas and a miniscule amount of solar. So how much are new greener electric rates going to increase? You will be able to make the payments on your aluminum Tesla but will you be able to afford to plug it in to charge it? The road taxes paving the roads have to come from somewhere? Odometer tax to fund the bike lanes that the elite play on at your expense?

My prediction is that electric vehicle costs will come down to the point that they are practical and affordable. Free enterprise doing its thing. Our electric supply delivered by utilities who have no alternative but to implement the power generation sources the government dictates are going to become outrageously expensive. Not only will the higher rates apply to the energy used by your car but your coffee maker and AC is going to bankrupt you before you even consider plugging in your Tesla for a drive to the park.. What could possibly go wrong?

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 07, 2021, 07:23:41 AM
In agreement with @stavebuyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15189) .  I could see tough times if Utilities can't change.  The challenge is real enough.  They have huge sunk capital.  The 3 sqmi solar farm that is an eyesore to Jim is still cheaper than the NG fired plant alternative.  Customers want renewable power so they are building it, they also want low rates, they want constant supply and the Utility boards and maangement are grossly grossly overpaid for basically being countryclub representatives that lobby for price increases.  So how do they recoup that sunk capital?  They are forced to provide a grid.  Actually loading a grid with EVs is really not that onerous, the CA grid as bad as it is has had no problems with EV charging.  The fact is that most people don't use that much energy to drive and when it is an EV it is pretty small.  Maybe charging once or twice a week, at night.  It's going to be a complex problem and one that requires govt intervention due to the monopoly aspects of the utility business.  Even if generation is competitive the grid is not a competitive business.  The industry is led by people that sort of by design are not good at change.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 07, 2021, 08:07:08 AM
@southside  how many gallons does a road semi use all day?  Say 4 miles/gallon loaded?  So a 500 mile range for a semi would mean 125 gallons?  Next year you can buy that fully electric, well you can pick it up this year but you'd have had to pay for it 2 years ago.  The truck is not losing cargo capacity because it is EV.  

Battery power density is there for heavy equipment if the form factor is large enough to hold them.  That Timbco cutter of
@BargeMonkey (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24634) or others have, that is tough.  Our forwarder?  I think a piece of cake as there is a ton of space that is armored and empty.  Recharging in the field.  No solution other than a genset right now.  Genset to pure EV drive train should work just fine though.  
I wonder why there has been no mention of diesel electric. Would make sense for forestry equipment. Works good on railroad locomotives,earth movers, heavy duty mining equipment and submarines.  A skidder or forwarder with diesel genset and electric drive -no clutch, no torque converter,no complicated transmission,no drive shafts or U joints, no differentials, just an electric motor and planetary in the hub of each wheel. Rumor has it that cat has an electric dozer in the works. When the junkyards have enough ev parts, I can just see a home-made belvin ev skidder.
I actually think this is exactly what will happen but there are lots of smart engineers so who knows :).  It will certainly be a good idea to try again after the ones in the 1960s from letourneu.  He was always thinking, neat guy.  He'd have loved Elon Musk, maybe challenged him.  So folks remember, this particular idea has been done.  Just pieces parts were not advanced enough to complete his vision in 1960.
Have you ever been around a Letourneu stacker before? They’re slow as a snail to put it nicely we all dread when we get unloaded by them where if it’s a 988 or equal they can do two trucks in the same amount of time as a Letourneu.
How old is the letourneu?

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: snowstorm on February 07, 2021, 09:48:59 AM
if you only get 4 mpg running over the road you will not be in business very long. at least 6 is what most push for and 7 to 8  is not uncommon. and then there is weight. how heavy is your ev truck? its all about payload. if the ev is 2 or 3 ton more less payload then less revenue for that load. then its needs to run 600 miles a day. there is not enough truck parking as it is. so now you not only have to find a spot but it also has to have power. idle air tried that shore power at truck stops for heat and ac. they went bankrupt . for pickup and delivery in cities it may work. volvo already has ev trucks working on the west coast. in the city. will tesla be the first with a class 8 ev i would say no. volvo already beat them to it with a class 7 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 07, 2021, 10:49:03 AM
Regerative braking and 424 square feet of roof for solar panels isn't the same conditions as a piece of forestry equipment. 

Sort of like saying a Cessna can fly so it will make it to the moon. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 07, 2021, 11:25:01 AM
@southside  how many gallons does a road semi use all day?  Say 4 miles/gallon loaded?  So a 500 mile range for a semi would mean 125 gallons?  Next year you can buy that fully electric, well you can pick it up this year but you'd have had to pay for it 2 years ago.  The truck is not losing cargo capacity because it is EV.  

Battery power density is there for heavy equipment if the form factor is large enough to hold them.  That Timbco cutter of @BargeMonkey (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24634) or others have, that is tough.  Our forwarder?  I think a piece of cake as there is a ton of space that is armored and empty.  Recharging in the field.  No solution other than a genset right now.  Genset to pure EV drive train should work just fine though.  
I wonder why there has been no mention of diesel electric. Would make sense for forestry equipment. Works good on railroad locomotives,earth movers, heavy duty mining equipment and submarines.  A skidder or forwarder with diesel genset and electric drive -no clutch, no torque converter,no complicated transmission,no drive shafts or U joints, no differentials, just an electric motor and planetary in the hub of each wheel. Rumor has it that cat has an electric dozer in the works. When the junkyards have enough ev parts, I can just see a home-made belvin ev skidder.
I actually think this is exactly what will happen but there are lots of smart engineers so who knows :).  It will certainly be a good idea to try again after the ones in the 1960s from letourneu.  He was always thinking, neat guy.  He'd have loved Elon Musk, maybe challenged him.  So folks remember, this particular idea has been done.  Just pieces parts were not advanced enough to complete his vision in 1960.
Have you ever been around a Letourneu stacker before? They’re slow as a snail to put it nicely we all dread when we get unloaded by them where if it’s a 988 or equal they can do two trucks in the same amount of time as a Letourneu.
How old is the letourneu?
Been around the 50 to 60 year old ones and brand new ones they’re slow. Electric power log loaders aren’t anything new but they are slower heavier and no where as convenient as their diesel counter part.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Skeans1 on February 07, 2021, 11:28:35 AM
if you only get 4 mpg running over the road you will not be in business very long. at least 6 is what most push for and 7 to 8  is not uncommon. and then there is weight. how heavy is your ev truck? its all about payload. if the ev is 2 or 3 ton more less payload then less revenue for that load. then its needs to run 600 miles a day. there is not enough truck parking as it is. so now you not only have to find a spot but it also has to have power. idle air tried that shore power at truck stops for heat and ac. they went bankrupt . for pickup and delivery in cities it may work. volvo already has ev trucks working on the west coast. in the city. will tesla be the first with a class 8 ev i would say no. volvo already beat them to it with a class 7
How much is it going to cost for that charge too? If it’s like the cars people that have or had the electric cars are getting a surprise now that they’re having to pay for a charge.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 07, 2021, 11:47:59 AM
It is about half the cost in most places.  Basically about 80mpg or something like that vs whatever your drove before.  But most people really don't use much fuel so the cost savings are there but not making a business case.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 07, 2021, 12:08:26 PM
if you only get 4 mpg running over the road you will not be in business very long. at least 6 is what most push for and 7 to 8  is not uncommon. and then there is weight. how heavy is your ev truck? its all about payload. if the ev is 2 or 3 ton more less payload then less revenue for that load. then its needs to run 600 miles a day. there is not enough truck parking as it is. so now you not only have to find a spot but it also has to have power. idle air tried that shore power at truck stops for heat and ac. they went bankrupt . for pickup and delivery in cities it may work. volvo already has ev trucks working on the west coast. in the city. will tesla be the first with a class 8 ev i would say no. volvo already beat them to it with a class 7
Thanks for better real world numbers.  In Sweden and Germany the race to get a real class 8 EV is pretty strong, Sweden is even building electric roads (charging built into pavement) and Tesla could easily be playing catch up in Europe if they even get there.   I'm no trucking maven so admittedly may be far off on some numbers and I only use Tesla as a proxy since I know something about them.  

@Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) 
The Semi from Tesla (can't speak to Merc or Volvo) is selling for 180k and has a 500 mile range.  The battery cost is now about $80/kWh based on the pre 4680 form factor they make in house.  Assume that the Semi needs 300+kWh battery to make that range (battery pack size had been up in the air but is finalized and I don't know the size but that's roughly what it will be because it is in the financials as 4x that of a model3).  That's a + - $24k battery pack.  It weighs a couple of tons more than fuel, that is an issue for some business cases.  Lets assume it is benchmarked against the 8mpg so 500 mile range would be 40 gallons of diesel (that is being conservative I hope).  I agree that it won't be the right solution for handling loads that are weight constrained but should be good for fleet local runs like a walmart depot, etc.  The first company to buy was a moving company owner in Virginia.  Walmart, AB, JB Hunt are all early buyers, Pride bought 150 and has options for 350 and no one is putting guns to Prides head saying you must convert to EV so I assume that there is a business case.  

The point I am slowly making is if Tesla can put a class 8 on road with 500 mile range than someone can make a piece of heavy equipment that can do a full days work on 40 or more gallon of diesel equivalent.  Our forwarder fuel use is less than 30 gallons/day (course we use it lightly).  That will all change of course as the battery keeps getting better and the motors too.   The issue is, as I see it: charging in the field.  That's the only holdup I see and again, some smart person somewhere will figure that out.  I don't know what it will be I just see $ to someone that figures it out and if I can see the $ than someone else is likely already working on it.  
Now in regards to charging trucks at depots, Tesla has the hands down best charging know how out there, that is where everyone else will play catch up.  They own their factory making super chargers, they build their own inverters.  The new cells will mean greatly enhanced charging speeds, one of the reasons they went to the new cell format. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 07, 2021, 12:21:20 PM
Well, at $80 a KWH that is still a $240K battery in the buncher, compared to say $30K for the diesel option.  As far as business case for Pride I believe that's a little thing called a refundable tax credit.....
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 07, 2021, 12:39:50 PM
@southside  how many gallons does a road semi use all day?  Say 4 miles/gallon loaded?  So a 500 mile range for a semi would mean 125 gallons?  Next year you can buy that fully electric, well you can pick it up this year but you'd have had to pay for it 2 years ago.  The truck is not losing cargo capacity because it is EV.  

Battery power density is there for heavy equipment if the form factor is large enough to hold them.  That Timbco cutter of @BargeMonkey (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24634) or others have, that is tough.  Our forwarder?  I think a piece of cake as there is a ton of space that is armored and empty.  Recharging in the field.  No solution other than a genset right now.  Genset to pure EV drive train should work just fine though.  
I wonder why there has been no mention of diesel electric. Would make sense for forestry equipment. Works good on railroad locomotives,earth movers, heavy duty mining equipment and submarines.  A skidder or forwarder with diesel genset and electric drive -no clutch, no torque converter,no complicated transmission,no drive shafts or U joints, no differentials, just an electric motor and planetary in the hub of each wheel. Rumor has it that cat has an electric dozer in the works. When the junkyards have enough ev parts, I can just see a home-made belvin ev skidder.
I actually think this is exactly what will happen but there are lots of smart engineers so who knows :).  It will certainly be a good idea to try again after the ones in the 1960s from letourneu.  He was always thinking, neat guy.  He'd have loved Elon Musk, maybe challenged him.  So folks remember, this particular idea has been done.  Just pieces parts were not advanced enough to complete his vision in 1960.
Have you ever been around a Letourneu stacker before? They’re slow as a snail to put it nicely we all dread when we get unloaded by them where if it’s a 988 or equal they can do two trucks in the same amount of time as a Letourneu.
How old is the letourneu?
Been around the 50 to 60 year old ones and brand new ones they’re slow. Electric power log loaders aren’t anything new but they are slower heavier and no where as convenient as their diesel counter part.
My buddy had an older backhoe, from NYC actually.  IH?  Not sure.  Anyway, Very powerful, reliable...slow.  Slow as molasses.  He borrowed a local plumbers mini ex to dig trenches.  Some things that mini ex can't do.  For most jobs it would run rings around that backhoe. 
I suspect you'll find the same with the letorneau.  Older designed equipment with some great features but flawed.  Before Tesla an EV meant slow and range limited.  Now with unofficial track records at Nuremberg and 400 mile ranges no one is really complaining about those things.   
Porsche CEO says that in 8 years only 1 petrol version will still be sold, they are moving everything to EV.  The reason, the 0-60 in sub 2 secs  and 200 MPH top end from a Tesla sedan.  Tesla went to Nuremberg and smoked the track record Porsche had for a sedan.  Smoked.   Honestly, if we were having coffee in 2004 and someone said that in less than 20 years a mass market EV sedan would go from 0-60 in sub 2 sec, top out at 200 mph, and go over 400 miles and scare the bejabers out of Porsche...well you'd have called them crazy.  That was the year Tesla was founded.  Tesla has an order book of 100k for that car just a few weeks after making it available.  At the same time the $25k Tesla is under development already.  So in re to the heavy equipment...I think I will get to own electric forestry equipment before I pass on.  Semi drivetrain proves it is possible to power it.  Charging it, that's a $ maker for someone.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 07, 2021, 01:15:26 PM
Well, at $80 a KWH that is still a $240K battery in the buncher, compared to say $30K for the diesel option.  As far as business case for Pride I believe that's a little thing called a refundable tax credit.....

Tesla has not qualified for tax credits in last couple of years in the USA, they sold out of that by 2018.  They sell tax credits overseas in a pooled group, mostly to Fiat but that is in a complicated pooling arrangement that has nothing to do with the USA.  If there is a class 8 truck EV tax credit that could be interesting, what is it?

I think you have an extra 0 there on the math.  300kWh battery at $80/per is $24,000.  You can buy a new Tesla replacement sedan pack for $12k I think that is an 60kWh pack, fyi. The semi pack is 4-5 times the cars.  Now that's just battery.  Not charging, 4-6 motors is going to be more.  etc etc.  I think it is interesting because it is heavy equipment for $180k and tesla makes a slim profit (not much because they invest back most things).  They operate in a free market, if it was not a deal nobody would buy.  Now a skidder is not an OTR truck so obviously...a skidder would be big dollars but they already are.  Charging..that is a bugger.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 07, 2021, 01:33:48 PM
I think one time i got 4.9mpg in constant stop and go nantahala NF big mountain driving.  Low to mid 5mpg on regular appalachian interstate (constant hills) at 78k average.  Midwest or light and low i could hit 6.  Thats going 70-75 in a 550hp pete hood truck with my foot mashed and idling overnight if real cold or hot.  I might coulda got 6.5 if it was my fuel and time were cheap. 


The volvos and cascadias get into the 7s and 8s.  Strapped owner ops paying for high fuel in flatlands pulling vans have gotten as high as 11 with conventional diesels and all the aero mods crawling along, progressive shifting etc.  About the same time the industry managed to deliver mileage gains at the market's insistence, they were saddled with all the EGR and DPF mandate crap and especially bad is all the adaptive cruise and semi autonomous tech of the last 5 years that slams on the brakes over shadows or taillights and causes slinky wrecks all the time.  This all makes for unreliable engines and excessive computers. 

 The new trucks pretty much have to be owned under warranty or theyre liable to bankrupt an operator after a rash of badluck.  You could overhaul a good engine yourself with a book, some tools and a sub $10k kit. A trans you could pop and swap for 6k or less in a weekend days. ( for me these prices are double, but average for a normal guy)  The new stuff, guys are routinely claiming 30k for an engine, 30k for a trans.  


This nightmare is why the worn out iron truck is still selling at double of the late model plastic mistake. 



Truckin sucks anyways.  And never base any opinion on the decisions of a mega carrier.  They are modern day slave owners, they do anything to their employees for another buck today.  Being in upper management requires being of low moral virtue. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: barbender on February 07, 2021, 01:35:53 PM
I think some of us have an emotional attachment to our diesel engines. I do at times. Looking at a $700,000 Ponsse ScorpionKing sitting dead in a Black Spruce swamp because of a failed DEF sensor like I was the other day, the love disappears pretty quickly. Now the argument can certainly be made that the Government bureaucrats shouldn't be able to force manufacturers to release unreliable and expensive technology to comply with government mandated emission controls (which I would certainly agree with), but yet, here we are. The lack of reliability and cost of the tier 4 (5 is coming🤦🏻‍♂️) diesels will make it easier for electrics to compete with. On site charging for forestry equipment will be a huge obstacle and perhaps insurmountable, if it wasn't for that powering things with an electric motor usually makes a lot of sense. I wish my sawmill was electric.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 07, 2021, 02:10:15 PM
I think you have an extra 0 there on the math.  300kWh battery at $80/per is $24,000


One gallon of diesel is equivalent to 40.7 KWH, multiply that by 75 gallons of fuel and you have 3052.5 KWH of energy being consumed in a day - so it's a $240K battery.  The OTR truck is claiming that range with on the fly charging being part of the system, and we have yet to see one.  Well, we did see a video of one but it turns out that was some creative photography.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 07, 2021, 02:30:38 PM
I think the powers that be understand exactly what they are doing. The true goal is that they don't expect this to work and they really don't care if it doesn't. The don't want you to be independent, log, farm, mine, or anything else that "harms the planet". If electricity gets pricey enough you will be forced to reduce your carbon footprint, adjust your thermostat, and ditch your then unaffordable vehicle for public transportation.

They wrote the playbook with tobacco. They never outright made it illegal as they would of had a rebellion so they taxed and regulated it to the point people could not afford to use it. It didn't start with electricity and won't stop there either. For the common good you understand. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 07, 2021, 05:31:35 PM
I think you have an extra 0 there on the math.  300kWh battery at $80/per is $24,000


One gallon of diesel is equivalent to 40.7 KWH, multiply that by 75 gallons of fuel and you have 3052.5 KWH of energy being consumed in a day - so it's a $240K battery.  The OTR truck is claiming that range with on the fly charging being part of the system, and we have yet to see one.  Well, we did see a video of one but it turns out that was some creative photography.  
What's the efficiency of the electric motor vs the diesel? I think it's around twice as good? Also regen braking allows the truck to recover a % of that power on the downhill  / braking sections. Those things would make the numbers look somewhat better, not good enough to be practical yet, but better.
So I agree that the technology isn't there yet for the long range trucks, but for local deliveries with lots of stop / go driving it's probably practical now. Wellington city has battery electric busses now, and things like rubbish trucks that stop every 100m, but actually don't do a lot of miles can work too.  The new cross harbour ferry in Wellington is also electric, and the new harbour tug in Auckland is electric, and it's a full on 70 ton pull harbour tug. It has a couple of backup diesel generators for emergency use, but normal operation is 100% electric. 
Ports of Auckland Buys World-First Electric Tug (https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/ports-of-auckland-buys-world-first-electric-tug)
The Auckland Tug isn't a taxpayer subsidised scam, it was a commercial decision by the Port Company. The tug costs more to build, but about $12mil a year to operate. I think this is the first one built in the world (of that size anyway). 

Those are all specific use cases, short trips, return to home for recharge stuff. But you start with the stuff where it is practical. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 07, 2021, 07:15:50 PM
... The lack of reliability and cost of the tier 4 (5 is coming🤦🏻‍♂️) diesels will make it easier for electrics to compete with. ...
imo, that is it in a nutshell.  
diesel is nancy kerrigan and electric is tanya harding.  maybe some day tanya will be better than nancy.  but to win today, she needs to hire some goons over at CARB/EPA to put a hurting on nancy in order to have a chance in todays contest.  as we all know, tanya is willing to put her lobbying dollars where it counts. 
let me know when a battery can spin a set of tracked up bogies out of a bog with 8cord on its back, uphill.  i won't be holding my breath so no rush on my end. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 07, 2021, 07:32:07 PM
I guess I'd just look at the options and say can a truck do 500 miles.  I don't care if it is diesel or gasoline or electrons stored in a battery or a hydrogen powered fuel cell connected to a battery.  As long as it can do the job reliably.  We'll know in official docs exactly how big the battery is in short order.  

Does anyone want to ride in one? I could maybe swing a ride or two when the moving company gets theirs, they are based in VA.  You'd have to get up to northern VA but I could put that together with some planning time.  It might be almost a year out in any case, the first don't get delivered til late summer at best.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 07, 2021, 08:06:57 PM
i feel that a piece of equipment needs to be reliable well beyond warranty and payment period to be a productive investment of business capital.  the new trucks are very often missing that mark.  which leads me to a hypothetical question here:  


say you buy the EV harvester because the demo was great and it did the job well and reliably.  you got the genset for woods charging or whatever.. all is great and it slays wood without fueling.   for a year or 3.  just past warranty.  now that youre on yer own with it, instead of oil leaking out somewhere, smoke is.. and the dealer ain't calling back after your third voicemail because he is swamped with a few other furious customers higher up the food chain with warranty still left.

my question is... now what?  

its a late model machine.  low hours, great rubber, nice paint.. tons of balance still due but the equity got cut 70% when the smoke came out and its blocking a haul road. the machine isn't used up at all.  but the WARRANTY IS!

So again..now what?  are there 3 generation of independent EV mechanics out there to call in, like there are for diesels at present?  or are the factory trained ones all still at their factory dealer job.  a new technology takes a while to filter into the local labor pool. some proprietary technology never does.



nothing made today of a vehicular nature is going in the direction of owner serviceability.  everything is going in the direction of dealer only.  and dealerships are going in the direction of leaving us holding the bag.  the trucking industry has had all sorts of smart trucks, and the consensus on a lot of these failures is scrap it, part it out, park it or whatever but get another truck asap and get back on the road.  "ya shoulda known to trade it before warranty was up."  thats the answer that has evolved on the trucking side with all the new tech.  buy it, run it and dump it for another new one before the first major failure can wipe you out.  


well that just makes you an indentured serf to the equipment manufacturer.  or a guy driving a huge huge huge asset depreciation risk the day warranty ends. who is gonna buy a dead piece of EV equipment that needs a lowboy out of the woods for what you owe on the note?  no one.  only the dealer, as a trade toward another one.


if you like risk, jump in.  if you like a stress free, stable, comfortable life... avoid large risk. especially as you age.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 07, 2021, 08:53:19 PM
Using a Genset to charge an electric vehicle is totally pointless, it would be less efficient than simply running diesel. Which is why electric forestry machines are still a long way off. At that point, you would mount the genset on the machine, with a small battery, and run as a hybrid. (Not a completely stupid idea, but probably too expensive) 

As for the warranty, if the battery manufacturer wont give you a (for example) 10 year warranty on the battery pack, then it's a non-starter. I think Nissan warranties their Leaf battery for 8 years?  OK it could die after 10, and you are on your own, but it's longer than the warranty on the rest of the vehicle. 

That life of the battery pack, or the replacement cost, is where things have to be improved. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 07, 2021, 10:39:42 PM
No im talkin 3, 4 years in and it lets some smoke out of a control panel.  Unplanned failure, not scheduled battery death. 


Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 07, 2021, 11:05:04 PM
Back when we were bagging shavings there was one guy, one - that could service the control system on the bagging machine, he was based 6 hours away and in Canada.  Had a motor starter get too hot which melted the plastic case dripping melted plastic into the PLC module.  Nobody locally would touch the thing, US Customs needed a letter from me to allow him to come and service the unit - claimed they didn't want to take work from a US employee.  So we sat there dead in the water for a week waiting on parts, Customs, and the one guy to show up.  $14,000.50 worth of parts later (the $0.50 being the metal heat shield I constructed and put over the PLC should that happen again) we were operational.  

The scenario Mike is talking about will be real, and a real issue.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 08, 2021, 04:18:12 AM
I think you guys are getting ahead of the game with your everything electric ideas because it's not going to go that way, at least not everything. It's becoming painfully clear that Biden/Kerry are going to force the way out of oil based energy and into the green energy plan. The way that is going to go is by choking the life out of oil by restricting exploration and transportation, at least here in the US. So say goodbye to $2 per gallon gas forever. Yes, that's going to be painful for those of us that will remain dependent on the most portable and energy dense fuel now available but neither Biden nor Kerry care one iota because they have either taxpayer funded or old money funded luxury jets available for their needs. 

So now for those of us stuck with oil based energy for the majority of our needs and the near future, the only thing we can look at to ease the pain is efficiency of our beloved diesel or electric power where it's feasible. The diesel is being hamstrung in efficiency by the tier emission standards which are forcing fuel efficiency results in the wrong direction. Perhaps one direction we are going is to more electric actuators and less hydraulic. We may see larger electric generators on heavy equipment and smaller hydraulic pumps. More electric drives and less hydrostatic.

There is a lot that can change without going all in electric and a lot of problems to be faced too with dead machines. Some years ago I talked to a second shift operator on a harvester and he told about the dark and moonless night when he lost all power in his harvester far back in the woods. Since many of those deep woods jobs have no cell service he had no choice but to hoof it back to the landing but when he got out of the totally dead machine it was near impossible to tell even which way to walk back to the landing. Yes, it does pay to have a small flashlight in your pocket. Just hope the batteries aren't dead.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 08, 2021, 08:34:55 AM
what makes all old technologies stable is its serviceability by any untrained joe shmo with the motivation to just figure it out, meeting a robust supply of affordable parts, for a very long time.  My bobcat is almost 42?  Theres not an inch of it i dont understand.  If parts were still supplied it could still run as good as its first job. That is sub standard today but still sufficient for me. 




Whether it is Baldor and Dayton or Delco Remy or Briggs and Kohler.  They cant stop you from figuring out how to disect a AC, DC or gas motor, or making a better aftermarket part for their weakspot. Design patents have expired.  The oem plus the aftermarket working together can create products that are a joy to own and maintain affordably for the rest of your life.  Kohler k321 cast iron lawn engines, husky 372 saws, Eaton RTLO trannies, bosch mechanical injection pumps. Cummins 6B, 6C, big cam and n14, Navistar dt466, chevy 350, cat B/C/E, honda D, B, F, H and K series.





These things are so easy on the owners that you cant fade them without legislation that makes it difficult for you to get a new one when they truly wear out. When that legislation comes along demand spikes, prices rise and the free market function kicks into high gear, chasing the profit motive as they should.  


Free markets allow price to signal a genuine response to a genuine demand and suppliers give consumers what they want.  Market Utopia.



This big green brother crap is universally hated by those who havent adopted the questionable green idealogy.  It is a sinister buzz word in my opinion but i will leave it at that.  Big green brother has to use every possible baton to tanya harding the old technology out of the race because it is just so *DanG cheap, reliable and profitable without big green brothers intervention.



When EV Iron Corp releases their flagship machine and the blue state governments find out about it, theyll immediately legislate the feelgood buzzword requirement of only EV iron on as many jobs as possible (and some not yet possible) whether forestry or construction.



The big money contractors who utilize the christmas card kickback method to line up premium work, will buy or lease them for those jobs and itll look like a slam dunk on the showroom posters, pamphlets, tv screens, brochures and youtube ads.  The fuel savings will be legendary and a bandwagon will follow.  The smarter operations will trade them out under warranty and have a good or even great result from the new tech.



If EV Iron Corp for some reason uses open source, off the shelf components for logic control then the private repair market can adapt to this new design very quickly, Allen Bradley and ABB would dive right in to supply pop and swap programmable logic that everyone knows and loves.  But judging by every other computerized vehicle or machine trend i have experienced in the 20ish years ive been troubleshooting vehicles and equipment, it wont be open source.  Ive never seen an open source vehicle manufacturer.  Are there any?  



The jist of the first 20 years is the tech will be proprietary to the manufacturer and the design patents will have a 20 year protection window that EV iron corp enforces in order to be the only provider of replacement cards and controllers and motors for that time period if they are at all able to do so.  


After that 20 years USPTO protection ends and the curtain is opened up for the free market to support this old tech, which will then make it easier to own on the bad days.  


Everything has bad days..  Everything man ever makes always returns to dust in time and i am at peace with it.  But i dont want to see it turn your finances to dust.  Wyatt when your old ponsse is broke and you call me, you know im eager to help.  When your EV Iron Corp toy goes down, im useless, i already know its too proprietary for me.  We all better hope the millenial's kids like semi conductors and IC chips.  


Until then i would buy the best EV Iron warranty and not hold one outside of it.  Warranty will be the new homeowners insurance.  It will become financially crazy to let it lapse.



Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 08, 2021, 09:29:09 AM
^^ This is why I am a much bigger fan of conversions than new factory produced stuff. Well that and I don't have money to buy anything new regardless of what powers it :D

Here is a 100kW EV controller that is open source: http://eet.etec.wwu.edu/ahmanna/project/docs/Prodject%20description.pdf

Here is a 150kW The Perfect Open Source Controller for Powerful Electric Motors - Open Electronics - Open Electronics (https://www.open-electronics.org/the-perfect-open-source-controller-for-powerful-electric-motors/)

Another 100kW
Axiom: 100+kW Motor Controller | Hackaday.io (https://hackaday.io/project/164932-axiom-100kw-motor-controller)

Some folks working on fully open source EV (commuter cars by the looks)
OSVehicle - eLinux.org (https://elinux.org/OSVehicle)

Open source Open Architecture Software Platform for Plug-in Electric Vehicle Smart Charging https://ww2.energy.ca.gov/2020publications/CEC-500-2020-005/CEC-500-2020-005.pdf

https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you
Quote
All Our Patent Are Belong To You
Elon Musk, CEO June 12, 2014
Yesterday, there was a wall of Tesla patents in the lobby of our Palo Alto headquarters. That is no longer the case. They have been removed, in the spirit of the open source movement, for the advancement of electric vehicle technology.
Tesla Motors was created to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport. If we clear a path to the creation of compelling electric vehicles, but then lay intellectual property landmines behind us to inhibit others, we are acting in a manner contrary to that goal. Tesla will not initiate patent lawsuits against anyone who, in good faith, wants to use our technology.

Thunderstruck Motors Home (https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/) Lots of components that can be used for converting
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 08, 2021, 10:29:13 AM
Well, i appreciate the spirit of tesla's apparently genuine altruistic desire to just make good things better.  There is an open source, poor man's machine building community that i dont idealogically jive with [opensourceecology.org] but im forced to have some respect for.   Most boards of directors are notorously driven by the desire to make things better for themselves at others expense, that im forced to disdain.  


Today, when your 1967 garret treefarmer goes down, it isnt Garret inc who rushes in to help you.  Its the community of people here that offers support for a well adopted piece of old equipment.  This holds true for everything.  From semiconductors to semitrucks, from hotrods to hotdogs.   Someday woodmizer will be defunct but there will be followers banded together helping each other because the common love of the machine brings them together.   It dont matter what you own any more.  stuff + internet makes for groups and groups make for cameraderie and support.  



When that community and cameraderie has evolved for EV equipment, itll be a good time to own it.  Before then, may not be so good.  You wont have a support group of friends driven by compassion,  just a dealer who wants to be friends with your wallet.   They tell me good dealers are rare.  I dunno, my wallet is too small for any of them to court me for a relationship!   ;D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 08, 2021, 07:18:44 PM
Mike you'll be glad to know that the tweaking tesla crowd is a pretty big community allready.  A few people have dived into the leafs but the leaf battery is just not that great and degrades over 10 years.  Plenty of 10 year old tesla batteries still going strong (prob due to the very good and sophisticated BMS that keeps cells at optimal voltage.

Anyhow lots of very interesting rebuild projects where people buy 2-3 salvage/wreck cars and rebuild to get a working 1-2 cars.  Other guys have used tesla batteries to build home made powerwalls.  Others have been cracking the software to allow racing and recharge at rates that void warranty.  All kinds of funky stuff.   All kinds of shops around that modify/tweak them.  

After all the early adopters were often pretty accomplished geeks that are used to breaking code and willing to dive into something new.  Breaking into the tesla was just an extension of what they normally do.  Just like a good mechanic tweaking his new car a bit, or buying a couple of parts cars and restoring a wreck.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 09, 2021, 07:54:30 AM
Yeah tesla has a fanatical following, there will always be a flood of free answers to any tesla problem.  A skidder harvester fanclub will be much smaller and slower to grow due to their unglamorous nature.  But it will eventually pop up and be a good resource.  If there is a forkliftaction.com forum then there should also be a EV skidders.com some day. 

;D


Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: alan gage on February 09, 2021, 01:08:12 PM
I didn't read the whole thread and will just give my brief input as a light auto mechanic.

I welcome electric and think it will make simpler and more reliable vehicles. There is nothing basic about what people are driving now and emissions have made things extremely complicated (and expensive). Everyone seems to want to go back to the days before emissions when things were simple. Well, electric is the only way we're going to do that. I'm sure there will be some stumbling blocks along the way but I think it will be a positive step. As for cost I think once they go mainstream that the cost of new vehicles will drop (or at least stop going up so fast).

Lots of people would love to rip all the "emissions junk" off their vehicle. Electric will get rid of all that and then some. There will be fewer components, less wiring, and fewer computers.

Alan

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on February 09, 2021, 04:49:37 PM
When you consider the amount of moving parts and bolt on components in a vehicle piston engine compared to an electric and the fluids and filters and cooling systems they really should be considerably more reliable and easier to maintain.

A quick search says a Tesla drivetrain has 17 moving parts compared to 200 or so in a typical internal combustion engine.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 09, 2021, 04:59:32 PM
I think the biggest question is where is the non petroleum power to charge the batteries coming from with the NGD being pushed in the next 10-15 years especially in rural areas or remote logging blocks?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: alan gage on February 09, 2021, 05:49:28 PM
I think the biggest question is where is the non petroleum power to charge the batteries coming from with the NGD being pushed in the next 10-15 years especially in rural areas or remote logging blocks?
That is probably the big question. Battery technology has been improving and I assume we'll see some big jumps as real money is poured into R&D. Or maybe not and it will fizzle. If I had to bet I'd say in 25 years there will be answers to most of these problems and at that time (25 years from now) they'll seem so simple and commonplace we'll wonder why we didn't see them coming.

Right now Iowa generates over 30% of its own power by wind. And 40% of the corn crop goes to ethanol rather than food. How much energy is used (in the form of fossil fuels and electricity) to harvest that crop and process it to ethanol and transport it? How much energy could be produced if 40% of Iowa's corn acres were used for solar and wind energy rather than ethanol? I don't know the answers to either of those questions but there's a lot of wind and solar energy out there for the taking. I don't know how it is around the rest of the country but wind has been great for Iowa. It's brought in a lot of good jobs, workers, and manufacturing to rural areas that have a hard time luring new residents and keeping current ones.

There are challenges to wind and solar as well (like finding a way to store it) but since there's really nothing I can do other than watch it happen I'll choose to be optimistic. The only constant in life is that things will change and that change will be resisted.

Alan
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 09, 2021, 06:56:51 PM
It's worth reading the whole thread, there has been a lot of discussion about those very points and the problem of the cart before the horse. There are EV's around here and a high school buddy is setting up charging stations all over BC and our power comes from hydro electric.There are plans for the site C dam up north but there is a lot of opposition to it.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 09, 2021, 07:49:35 PM
It's worth reading the whole thread, there has been a lot of discussion about those very points and the problem of the cart before the horse. There are EV's around here and a high school buddy is setting up charging stations all over BC and our power comes from hydro electric.There are plans for the site C dam up north but there is a lot of opposition to it.
There will be lots of changes for sure.  @alan gage (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=36602) summarized things nicely for me, change is going to happen.   EVs are  simple, low number of moving parts, 1/3 the number of parts compared to an ICE.  

Paul I think that what happens on the supply side of things is really for the market to work out, they'll build the plants and quickly.  My early points being that everyone in the utility world sees what is happening and they are being very cautious with new NG facilities.  They are retiring coal and standing up wind and solar.  NG has grown moderately in 2020 but much slower than expected, wind and solar much higher than expected.  This in a continent just awash in energy resources.  CA has been fine with the addition of 500k EVs and most of those teslas (big batteries).  This in a state with a horrible grid situation.  

As to corn and ethanol, $5.7 billion annual subsidy.  ANNUAL.  The ethanol corn acerage of 40% of 13.5 million acres would supply almost half the countries electric needs.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 09, 2021, 08:05:29 PM
Another point in favour of wind power is that it doesn't take the land out of production. Some of the sites of course aren't producing much agriculture wise, but around NZ there are still sheep and cattle grazing around the turbines, and only about 2% of the land is actually used by the generators. Other sites I guess could be cropped under the turbines without any problem. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 09, 2021, 08:20:12 PM
Horses have even fewer moving parts, no computer, and don't need any grid infrastructure to recharge.  Up north you could just run sled dogs in the winter. Problem solved. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 09, 2021, 08:45:54 PM
Horses have even fewer moving parts, no computer, and don't need any grid infrastructure to recharge.  Up north you could just run sled dogs in the winter. Problem solved.
And it's going to be cold enough to run sled dogs with snow in 7 of 10 days.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 09, 2021, 10:37:41 PM


Paul I think that what happens on the supply side of things is really for the market to work out, 
 You are starting to see things from my point of view, let the free market drive the changes.  8)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: barbender on February 09, 2021, 11:31:03 PM
Southside, I think you are officially a stick in the mud!😂😂😂
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 10, 2021, 12:33:00 AM
Horses have even fewer moving parts


Have you ever looked inside a horse?

You need a Vet degree to work out what's wrong with them, and even then the parts aren't available. 

And don't get me started on the inbuilt AI system. :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 10, 2021, 06:52:57 AM


Paul I think that what happens on the supply side of things is really for the market to work out,
You are starting to see things from my point of view, let the free market drive the changes.  8)
It will work out, if the govt stays out of it.  For example.  People want to drive EVs, not all, but many.  Tesla sells EVs.  The carbon reduction from just this limited 24 billion miles (total drive by tesla fleet) is roughly 50% of that compared to a petrol powered fleet. So, we had a net reduction of 12 billion miles of carbon production. Thats a drip in the ocean today but EV sales are growing at 50% a year or so and this drip becomes a trickle, then a stream/flood.  In 10 years the offsets will have transportation related emissions at 50% of 2004 levels.  That's pretty huge and well in line with where modelers want the US to be.  
The thing that will really kick this into higher gear is if the electricity comes from a solar or wind or hydro facility.  Then reductions will be closer to 90%.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 10, 2021, 07:03:06 AM

As to corn and ethanol, $5.7 billion annual subsidy.  ANNUAL.  The ethanol corn acerage of 40% of 13.5 million acres would supply almost half the countries electric needs.  
Boy oh boy do old myths die hard. The last ethanol subsidy ended in 2011.  ::)

The ethanol industry is a study in what's both right and wrong with government edicts. The ethanol industry was originally started by farmer owned coops (without subsidies) because their good feed product was being priced lower than firewood so it was cheaper to burn it than feed it. The subsidies and the mandates were put in place to encourage the use of a renewable fuel because the notion at that time was we were in imminent danger of running out of oil. However the subsidies attracted large chemical companies and the resultant boom in ethanol plants brought about an oversupply in production and supply. 

A local ag finance company even got saddled with a newly constructed plant by Mankato, MN that was finished, checked out and immediately mothballed. The plant has since been sold and I believe it is now running but with $2 gas, both the ethanol and refineries have struggled this past year. The mandate still remains and the oil companies hate it just as much as the democrats hate Trump but ethanol is also used as an oxygenate to reduce carbon monoxide and soot as combustion byproducts so the mandate continues.

What most people don't realize with corn used to produce ethanol is that most of the feed value remains behind as the byproduct called DDG's (dried distillers grains) which is a very desirable high protein feed. Cows just love it and it smells good enough to eat. Smells just like graham crackers.   
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: snowstorm on February 10, 2021, 07:30:59 AM
if you want to save the planet just close all the airports. but then the elites cant fly to summer home or winter home
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 10, 2021, 08:16:30 AM

As to corn and ethanol, $5.7 billion annual subsidy.  ANNUAL.  The ethanol corn acerage of 40% of 13.5 million acres would supply almost half the countries electric needs.  
Boy oh boy do old myths die hard. The last ethanol subsidy ended in 2011.  ::)

The ethanol industry i
The Ethanol Subsidy and How Biofuel Tax Incentives Work (https://www.thoughtco.com/understanding-the-ethanol-subsidy-3321701#:~:text=The%20ethanol%20subsidy%2C%20which%20is,ethanol%20they%20blend%20with%20gasoline).

According to everything I've ever read the subsidy is alive and kicking and farm lobby wants to double it.

Obviously...I am not a fan of ethanol subsidies or requirements to force oil companies to use ethanol or for it to be forced into gas pumps.  If ethanol was so great consumers & refiners would be yelling for it and paying huge premiums for it.   They pay a big premium for EVs today.  A Tesla cost 20-30% more than an ICE but people want them so they buy them.  Nobody forcing it.  


I can't see complaining about EVs but then supporting ethanol which is simply an industry supported and created by govt farm lobbyist- the DC swamp.  Just govt forcing people to do something that is not needed.   Trump administration actually let a lot of refiners stop using ethanol so that reduced tax credit payouts somewhat.  
EV's will greatly reduce petrol consumption in the US and with that, the ethanol industry business case will collapse.  

Frackers are understandably upset at the lost market share, they could increase sales by 5% if ethanol were not forced.  Eventually the conflict will really spill out into the open, I would guess when EV's are selling 20% of the US fleet (maybe 3 years at the rate Tesla is going and others racing to catch up).   At that point refiners start getting pinched.  Because diesel is lagging they'll rush to buy diesel refineries  and then this market will also collapse heavy trucks convert, heavy trucks lagging cars by 10 years.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 10, 2021, 08:24:41 AM
if you want to save the planet just close all the airports. but then the elites cant fly to summer home or winter home
True enough, ADMIN EDITED FOR POLITICAL CONTENT in cars.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: sharp edge on February 10, 2021, 08:58:46 AM
I see a lot of people here don't like the government. I think its doing a good job,considering they are put in power by the people. If Ole Olsen ran for office he might get 40% of the vote.

SE
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: alan gage on February 10, 2021, 09:07:58 AM
Another point in favour of wind power is that it doesn't take the land out of production. Some of the sites of course aren't producing much agriculture wise, but around NZ there are still sheep and cattle grazing around the turbines, and only about 2% of the land is actually used by the generators. Other sites I guess could be cropped under the turbines without any problem.
This is how it's done in Iowa. The farmers are paid for the use of their land (a lease I assume) and turbines speckle the crop fields. I believe there are small access roads to the turbines for regular maintenance and if they need to do large repairs (bring in a big crane to take a tower down) the farmer is paid for the destroyed crops.
Alan
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 10, 2021, 04:28:40 PM

The Ethanol Subsidy and How Biofuel Tax Incentives Work (https://www.thoughtco.com/understanding-the-ethanol-subsidy-3321701#:~:text=The%20ethanol%20subsidy%2C%20which%20is,ethanol%20they%20blend%20with%20gasoline).

According to everything I've ever read the subsidy is alive and kicking and farm lobby wants to double it.

 

Perhaps you should either find a better source of information or read more carefully because that article agrees with what I said but not directly. The 5.7 billion subsidy both you and the article quoted was from 2011, the last year the subsidy was in existence. 

I guess that article proves that biased reporting works to mislead those that wish to be misled.  ::)  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 15, 2021, 12:50:45 PM
Here is information about a complete solar electric generating station in California that is more than a little controversial.

Solar Electric Generating Station (http://www.brightsourceenergy.com/the-top-five-things#.YCqg95eSnGu)

And here is some of the controversy.

If a solar plant uses natural gas, is it still green? (https://theconversation.com/if-a-solar-plant-uses-natural-gas-is-it-still-green-50046)

Why rooftop solar is disruptive to utilities – and the grid (https://theconversation.com/why-rooftop-solar-is-disruptive-to-utilities-and-the-grid-39032)

The controversy is because the plant was financed by the Treasury ($1.6 billion), is owned in part by Google, was built on federal lands in California, still burns some natural gas, is not performing up to projected levels, does not produce electricity at night and received a 30% investment credit. 

The problem at night is a significant one as another plant or source must be available to take up the lower but still significant demand. Also the article about solar being disruptive highlights a problem with solar in general because of there being two demand peaks. One is in the AM as everything prepares for daily work, then decreases during the day and then rises sharply in the early evening. It is this sharp demand rise that will require a lot of variable demand power plants to be ready and waiting. So balancing time of day demand with power plant and intermittent power sources like solar and wind is going to be a nightmare and will require redundant power plants to cover all demand. Plus the net metering for small solar rooftop panels results in less money for utilities to maintain transmission systems.   
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 15, 2021, 01:35:31 PM
We got 1/2" of ice here Saturday, power went out at 6:00 AM.  On my farm alone I have two broken distribution poles and numerous broken cross braces.  Went to help a neighbor yesterday as she could not start her generator.  She is two miles up the road and I could see the same distribution line on the ground in three places, you can't see the majority of the line from the road so there is a lot more down.  The neighbor has one of those fancy plug in cars that she could not use to jump start her generator, and it didn't have enough of a charge to make it to the closest open gas station so she could get fuel for her generator.  No heat, no water, no transportation, could not even charge her cell phone, and this was day two of what is probably going to be 10-14 days of no power over this way.  

Aircraft have multiple redundancies built into them for a reason, our grid lacks such a security net and to have everything reliant on it would be a complete folly.  

After jumping her generator we hopped into my diesel powered pickup that has a 100 gallon transfer tank in the bed and hunted down kerosene and gas for her.  Figure since the transfer tank was just about full and the truck tank the same I had about a 2,400 mile range available to go and find fuel while her busted grid plug in sat there.  

Now she and I see the world differently, and while passing by a local shop about 10 miles down the road she commented that it "was time" he took down his Trump sign, and continued to say something about "it's over".  My reply was that there is "still 2024 and it's a long walk back to your house".  It got quiet for a moment after that.  Funny - those you call when the SHTF.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Tacotodd on February 15, 2021, 02:42:29 PM
Ain’t that the truth!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 15, 2021, 08:47:47 PM
I was reading a few minutes ago that Texas has over 5 million without power, unreliables such as wind turbines frozen, and other parts of the world solar panels blanketed with snow.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Nebraska on February 16, 2021, 09:37:16 AM
It is minus 26 here our clinic is without power, blacked out, not because of down lines  or ice damage. It's because green energy failed south of us.. We as a state are sending our power  South.  So we as a country can't heat or cool our houses now, really 
glad the Tesla doesn't need charging.   Better re- figure out a reliable  grid, which we had 20 years ago. Got a little  bit full of ourselves being progressive. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 16, 2021, 11:36:05 PM
Speaking of ethanol.. Last year i was in the edelbrock performer on my old ford 351W.  It got cleaned out last summer.


Its been running wonky recently, i went through the routine and figured vacuum leak.  Pulled the carb off and took the top off to check the needles..   Bowls are full of gooey algae lookin junk. 

 Ethanol sucks.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 17, 2021, 05:48:11 AM
Our premier announced construction of smaller scale nuke plants recently. I think there are 2 companies involved. Feds have pushed the carbon tax on us, and provinces have to find ways to reduce that tax. They are going to add 38 cents a litre tax on us within 3 years if we do nothing. Rule by taxation. Didn't you guys down there do something about that back about 1776? ::)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 17, 2021, 07:25:40 AM
I was reading a few minutes ago that Texas has over 5 million without power, unreliables such as wind turbines frozen, and other parts of the world solar panels blanketed with snow.
Texas has power issues because they deliberately grid isolate.  They have different power interconnections and this makes them an island, they literally can't push power out.  As such they don't get some Fed regs and in this case it hurt them.  One example is powerplants needing to be weatherproofed, anywhere else outside of Florida they are weatherproof.   The nukes even shut down in TX due to the cold, many natural gas and coal plants are shut and yes, some 50% of the windmills stopped running (about 12 of the 24 gigawatts of theoretical capacity but only about 1/3 of that is usually working).  So Texas has some unique challenges, the grid is made for warm weather and they didn't weather proof it.  Not that big a deal as it will be back up to 50 tomorrow and everything will thaw and get back to normal.  Blaming this on windmills is however, incorrect.    The windmills are actually performing better than the fossil fuel plants in much of the state.  The real culprit is lack of foresight or willingness of TX regulators to force the weatherization and allow that additional costs to be passed to rate payers.   
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 17, 2021, 07:38:05 AM
Speaking of ethanol.. Last year i was in the edelbrock performer on my old ford 351W.  It got cleaned out last summer.


Its been running wonky recently, i went through the routine and figured vacuum leak.  Pulled the carb off and took the top off to check the needles..   Bowls are full of gooey algae lookin junk.

 Ethanol sucks.  
Yeah it sucks.  Just sucks from every possible angle.  I actually fear for the implication in our states that have become dependent on ethanol subsidies, now some corn states politicians want to raise the tax credit to a dollar a gallon.  Ughh.  All that ethanol has to go somewhere and with gas production falling the feds will try to shove it somewhere.  Honestly, we'd be better off just paying to take the land out of production.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 17, 2021, 08:36:47 AM
So windmills don't like it when it's too cold, during ice storms, if the wind isn't blowing enough, or if it's blowing too much.  Got it. 

Have to say I really enjoyed watching the video of a Jet A fueled helicopter spraying petroleum based anti-icing agent onto giant windmill blades so we can all "be green".  

About sums it up that alternative has it's place, as long as fossil does the heavy lifting, just like my neighbor.   
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on February 17, 2021, 09:16:17 AM
Turn that on its head, sip the dino fuel, it'll last longer and the air will be cleaner. In TX, 10% of their grid is alternative, 90% of their grid went down, everything failed. I have friends that don't even know when the grid goes down. For alcohol, I've never seen everclear gel or grow anything and alky doesn't have to come from corn. Gas varnishes my disused carbs but I don't stop running it. I think maybe we've forgotten this is the alternatives board. If I listened to everyone who told me stuff couldn't be done I'd be out of work :D. Yes, there are growing pains but push into problems rather than retreating, keep thinking out of the box.

Swamp Donkey, we tried to "save" you all, several times  :D.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on February 17, 2021, 09:17:41 AM
And once upon a time there was a guy on a horse snickering at a guy stuck in his fancy horseless carriage.  ;)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 17, 2021, 09:43:53 AM
...and now horses are driven down the highway at 70mph by autos-go figure eh.
Windmills and solar are called unreliables for a reason at this point anyway but hopefully they will mature and break free from their petro shackles.

Norway has been working with Blue power or Osmotic power for over a decade and there may be a real potential for this one day.

Harnessing Brackish Water to Generate Power | Technology Networks (https://www.technologynetworks.com/applied-sciences/news/harnessing-brackish-water-to-generate-power-322301)

DonP,

solar and wind are not outside the box,they've been used by man in some form or other since time memorial. You are right that we should explore and investigate alternates and wind and solar has been discussed in length here so let's hear of other new and innovative sources of energy.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 17, 2021, 10:01:46 AM
Southside your neighbor's problem was being unprepared, would have been the same for you if you did not have a bunch of diesel already. The national emergency preparedness recommendations are to have at least a half tank of fuel I believe, she should do the same with her electric car or risk the consequences like the rest of us. It has nothing to do with electric cars or electric grids it has everything to do with people expecting others to take care of them when things go wrong.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on February 17, 2021, 11:39:44 AM
MOSt renewables aren't so much renewables. The sunshine we see today isn't the sunshine we see tomorrow and there are scientists that say the big ball of fire up there WILL burn out one day.

I think solar has the most potential next to Hydro in spite of some of it's more toxic issues that I think we will resolve in the next few years. (Palladium contamination). Solar evolution has been exponential in the last 10 years and a couple R&D of projects are advancing very well. The projection/goal is to achieve 90% recovery even in low light conditions and progress is encouraging to say the least. Maximizing recovery and conversion is the most effective way to win this battle. 

Ive done a bit of design work for a power system for the cabin and will begin install this summer. It will include 2000 watts of solar, a couple of the "acorn" 4000 watt wind turbines and a small 4" hydro turbine that should give up to 7500 watts. I have 360' +/- of easy drop and can get about 100' more with a bit of elbow grease. No Dam, no damage to the surrounding landscape. 4" and 500 metres is the largest/longest I can go without a full on engineering study and report to the ministry of environment. We'll see what happens.

Whne i visited the Revelstoke Dam 10 or so years ago they had a display model set up in the visitor center that showed a total rework of the Columbia River Gorge that I thought was very insightful. It showed the how the energy output could be increased up to 3 times WITHOUT a single large dam.

I don't recall how many small dams it included but the daming was designed around wildlife habitat restoration and preservation, flood control and irrigation and energy output, in that order. I don't recall the height of each dam/weir but I don't think they were more than about 8 feet and the piping to the turbines was 2 x 8" with the generators set below each small dam along the bank at locations that gave the needed specs to turn them. The numbers were impressive and  the little generator buildings weren't much bigger than a  single car garage.

Would mean taking out all the dams from the Mica dam to the Pacific but I think it might be the best idea I've seen so far for the Gorge. and maybe a few other water sheds as well.

Been wondering if smaller high conversion wind turbines might not be a better idea then that monsters we have now as well. There are some pretty impressive units coming on the market and they are not a high injury risk to birds and insects either.

                
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 17, 2021, 11:59:13 AM
So windmills don't like it when it's too cold, during ice storms, if the wind isn't blowing enough, or if it's blowing too much.  Got it.

Have to say I really enjoyed watching the video of a Jet A fueled helicopter spraying petroleum based anti-icing agent onto giant windmill blades so we can all "be green".  

About sums it up that alternative has it's place, as long as fossil does the heavy lifting, just like my neighbor.  
Texas blackouts fuel false claims about renewable energy (https://apnews.com/article/false-claims-texas-blackout-wind-turbine-f9e24976e9723021bec21f9a68afe927)
Quote
With millions of Texas residents still without power amid frigid temperatures, conservative commentators have falsely claimed that wind turbines and solar energy were primarily to blame.
“We should never build another wind turbine in Texas,” read a Tuesday Facebook post from Texas Agriculture Commissioner Sid Miller. “The experiment failed big time.”
“This is a perfect example of the need for reliable energy sources like natural gas & coal,” tweeted U.S. Sen. Steve Daines, a Republican from Montana, on Tuesday.
In reality, failures in natural gas, coal and nuclear energy systems were responsible for nearly twice as many outages as frozen wind turbines and solar panels, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which operates the state’s power grid, said in a press conference Tuesday.
Still a variety of misleading claims spread on social media around renewable energy, with wind turbines and the Green New Deal getting much of the attention.
A viral
photo of a helicopter de-icing a wind turbine (https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-9953125062) was shared with claims it showed a “chemical” solution being applied to one of the massive wind generators in Texas. The only problem? The photo was taken in Sweden years ago, not in the U.S. in 2021. The helicopter sprayed hot water (https://windren.se/WW2015/WW2015_13_312_Gedda_Deicing_helicopter.pdf) onto the wind turbine, not chemicals.
Other social media users, including Republican U.S. Rep. Lauren Boebert of Colorado, puzzlingly labeled the Green New Deal as the culprit. Boebert tweeted on Monday that the proposal was “proven unsustainable as renewables are clearly unreliable.”

But the Green New Deal is irrelevant, as no version of it exists in Texas or nationwide, said Mark Jacobson, director of the Atmosphere/Energy Program and professor of civil and environmental engineering at Stanford University.
“It’s really natural gas and coal and nuclear that are providing the bulk of the electricity and that’s the bulk of the cause of the blackouts,” Jacobson told The Associated Press.
ERCOT said Tuesday that of the 45,000 total megawatts of power that were offline statewide, about 30,000 consisted of thermal sources — gas, coal and nuclear plants — and 16,000 came from renewable sources.
On top of that, while Texas has ramped up wind energy in recent years, the state still relies on wind power for only about
25% of its total electricity (http://www.ercot.com/gridinfo/generation), according to ERCOT data.
“It’s not like we were relying on it to ride us through this event,” Joshua Rhodes, a research associate at the Webber Energy Group at the University of Texas at Austin, told the AP. “Nor would it have been able to save us even if it were operating at 100% capacity right now. We just don’t have enough of it.”
The agency confirmed that wellhead freeze-offs and other issues curtailing supply in natural gas systems were primarily to blame for new outages on Tuesday, after severe winter weather caused failures
across multiple fuel types (http://www.ercot.com/news/releases/show/225210) in recent days.

Renewable energy is a popular scapegoat for new problems as more frequent extreme weather events strain infrastructure, according to Emily Grubert, an assistant professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering at Georgia Institute of Technology.
“It’s easy to focus on the thing that you can see changing as the source of why an outcome is changing,” Grubert told the AP. “The reality is that managing our systems is becoming more difficult. And that’s something that is easy to blame on the reaction to it, but it’s not actually the root cause.”

Everybody turn off facebook if you haven't already :D :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 17, 2021, 12:28:21 PM
So the helicopter was photoshopped?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 17, 2021, 12:51:43 PM
So the helicopter was photoshopped?
No I guess it was a real helicopter, but being used for disinfo on the web like so many other things
Photo does not show a helicopter de-icing a wind turbine in Texas (https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-9953125062)
Quote
The photo is from 2015 and shows a helicopter de-icing a frozen wind turbine in Sweden with hot water, not chemicals.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 17, 2021, 02:02:33 PM
In this case there was no hot water or available choppers in Texas so the turbines simply stopped putting out power.

Mud Farmer you are on solar right now if I remember right,do you produce electricity and heat water with your system?

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 17, 2021, 02:22:00 PM
I find some irony in this whole picture.  All these renewable alternative energy sources designed to combat global warming.. Being shut down by abnormal COLD events and not abnormally hot ones.   I dont ever remember it being too cold for texas to make electricity before.  


Im sure there is a really good PHD explanation forthcoming for this peculiarity that i simply cannot be trusted to comprehend because im not a scientist, politician or corporate leader.  So i mostly just tune it all out. 


Im stupid enough to know that the earth controls us, we will never control it. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: beav on February 17, 2021, 02:39:01 PM
The turbines in Texas were installed without the cold weather kit. Prolly to save money?
They don't really de ice with helicopters
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 17, 2021, 03:18:08 PM
We have quite a few wind turbines here, gets real cold lotsa snow that kind thing and they don't stop spinning.

Paul I am only making electricity with the sun, water is on demand LPG fired.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 17, 2021, 03:41:45 PM
All these claims of answers in a nutshell as to what caused the Texas power outage belong in the nutshell. Any power grid is a very complex system of many widely distributed parts and each of the parts including the power sources have many quirks (and quarks) and so the whole system is also quirky. While you can hope that in a grid that some quirks can cancel out other quirks but that does not always work as expected.

In the old days of power grids and before green energy most power grids were made up of less quirky base energy sources like nuclear, coal, natural gas, oil and hydro power plants that could be brought on line as economics and demand required. Most grids had a surplus of less economical plants to bring on line as the demand required. The power distribution within the grid was adequate to handle moving power within the grid to handle most any scenario with the exception of things like tidal waves and major base load failures.

So along came the more quirky green energy sources and the move to force more green energy use and a corresponding decreased dependence on traditional base energy plants. The result of that change has been a power grid that is more dependent on the quirky green energy and less able to respond to extreme events like the extreme cold weather. Plus any peak energy plant (other than batteries that must get orders of magnitude better to be players) that I know of must use the out of favor fossil fuels and there is no desire to build any new fossil fueled plants. The result is the Texas grid is running at near capacity on the extreme cold and hot days with little margin for error. Some are saying the problems in the Texas grid could have been eased by power sharing with the other two major grids but those adjoining grids were also running at high capacity and there is just not enough distribution capacity in a wide area distribution system to move power long distances.

Now as far as the green energy sources being the main culprit in the problem I can say this. On the coldest and windiest day during that cold outbreak I happened to drive by one wind farm near me (southern MN) and at temps around -20F with a strong NW wind and even though the operator has crews that normally keep every single windmill operating, only about half were turning. I can only assume the problem was icing on the blades so even in areas used to extreme cold it's not easy to keep the blades turning. Have you ever seen what happens when one of those windmills has unbalanced blades?

I also know from my little experience with solar panels that they do not work worth a crap in the cold and unless you daily sweep the snow and clean off frost and ice, you are not going to get much if any power from them.

So in a nutshell (yes, I'm going that way too) we are moving towards a power grid that is far more quirky, with very little reserve and with little backup energy or distribution capacity so there is little chance to react to extreme events. What could possibly go wrong? Just wait till we have all quirky green energy sources.  ::)     
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 17, 2021, 04:39:55 PM
From former Governor Rick Perry

Quote
“If wind and solar is where we’re headed, the last 48 hours ought to give everybody a real pause and go wait a minute. We need to have a baseload and the only way you can get a baseload in this country is [with] natural gas, coal, and nuclear.”
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: brianJ on February 17, 2021, 04:46:43 PM
From former Governor Rick Perry

Quote
“If wind and solar is where we’re headed, the last 48 hours ought to give everybody a real pause and go wait a minute. We need to have a baseload and the only way you can get a baseload in this country is [with] natural gas, coal, and nuclear.”
Then why was Texas's nuclear and natural gas electric generation greatly diminished?     
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: beav on February 17, 2021, 04:50:02 PM
Well they better weatherproof the baseload because the n/g, coal and nukular plants froze up in texas
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 17, 2021, 05:46:31 PM
From former Governor Rick Perry

Quote
“If wind and solar is where we’re headed, the last 48 hours ought to give everybody a real pause and go wait a minute. We need to have a baseload and the only way you can get a baseload in this country is [with] natural gas, coal, and nuclear.”
He's likely correct about that.
But it was the base load stations going down that mostly caused the problems (this time) . Although some wind turbines did shut down, the output of the others was slightly above the forecast. He's correct that if too much reliance is put on the intermittent sources, without something to back them up, it's going to cause issues some time in the future.

So the real issue right now is they need More Reliable (or more backup) base load capacity.
Here in NZ most of the base load is provided by hydro, with some Geothermal. That works well with wind and solar as when they are producing you can store water (energy) in the lakes for later. Over a couple of days while the country was locked down none of the Nat Gas plants were running. But Geography isn't going to allow Texas (or most other places) to do this.

But even then it's a juggling game, and is somewhat at the mercy of the weather over the longer term. In our case it's a cold dry Winter that can cause issues as the lakes get drained down. Still plenty of peak generation, but only for "x" days before the lakes are empty. Still the wind generation helps alleviate that as every unit they do make leaves a unit of water in the lake.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 17, 2021, 05:59:48 PM

Then why was Texas's nuclear and natural gas electric generation greatly diminished?    
Well they better weatherproof the baseload because the n/g, coal and nukular plants froze up in texas
I'm not so sure those claims are true. I do know some valves on natural gas lines froze and there was a limited supply of natural gas available. I do also know the power grid was never down except in rolling areas which is necessary to prevent the entire system from going down when there is not enough generation available for the high load.

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 17, 2021, 06:35:51 PM
So the helicopter was photoshopped?
Your helicopter meme was from an experiment in Sweeden several years ago from an arctic wind research center, well traveled meme too.  Somehow those sneaky sweedes and danes and germans and scots and norwegians and english manage to do just fine with wind turbines in icy conditions.  Let me contrast Texas with Iowa;  Iowa did not fall apart when it got cold this week, they are short some NATURAL GAS..being asked to conserve, etc but this is gas related.  Iowa has more windpower per person than any state in the US (I believe but it could be overtaken by Kansas soon).  Iowa is part of a multi state power sharing grid that can also send and receive power from other parts of the US.  Unlike Texas.  Unlike Texas the grid there is weathproofed.  Iowa, unlike Texas listens to the advice given by engineers.  They might not have a choice really, they are regulated, but it shows the value of listening.  
  
Texas screwed up and it is clear that for the second time in 10 years the reason for the screw up is lack of preparedness.  You are prepared @Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) and good for you.  Texas isn't and has a trend going back decades of the grid failing in really cold weather.  And yes, Texas had no renewables 10 years ago when this happened and millions were without power for 5 days.  They had no renewables in 1989 and on and on.  Nothing has changed but the mix of power moving from Coal to NG and wind.  Even the nuke plants are not prepared and had to idle.  Crazy.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 17, 2021, 07:15:09 PM

Then why was Texas's nuclear and natural gas electric generation greatly diminished?    
Well they better weatherproof the baseload because the n/g, coal and nukular plants froze up in texas
I'm not so sure those claims are true. I do know some valves on natural gas lines froze and there was a limited supply of natural gas available. I do also know the power grid was never down except in rolling areas which is necessary to prevent the entire system from going down when there is not enough generation available for the high load.
"Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which manages most of Texas’ grid, said the primary cause of the outages Tuesday appeared to be the state’s natural gas providers. Many are not designed to withstand such low temperatures on equipment or during production."  Quote from the state regulator.   

Not new either.  Same dadgum issue 10 years ago and 30 years ago.  TX just won't winter proof the infrastructure.  10 years ago it was the exact same situation and they were told what they needed to do to fix it.  Did they..nope.  Rinse repeat.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on February 17, 2021, 07:31:23 PM
Our Governor is furious about the power getting shutdown in some of the states areas. We are not a third world country he said 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 17, 2021, 07:36:43 PM

Then why was Texas's nuclear and natural gas electric generation greatly diminished?    
Well they better weatherproof the baseload because the n/g, coal and nukular plants froze up in texas
I'm not so sure those claims are true. I do know some valves on natural gas lines froze and there was a limited supply of natural gas available. I do also know the power grid was never down except in rolling areas which is necessary to prevent the entire system from going down when there is not enough generation available for the high load.
"Electric Reliability Council of Texas, which manages most of Texas’ grid, said the primary cause of the outages Tuesday appeared to be the state’s natural gas providers. Many are not designed to withstand such low temperatures on equipment or during production."  Quote from the state regulator.  

Not new either.  Same dadgum issue 10 years ago and 30 years ago.  TX just won't winter proof the infrastructure.  10 years ago it was the exact same situation and they were told what they needed to do to fix it.  Did they..nope.  Rinse repeat.
I am confused. Does using a larger font make ones post more valid than the posters that didn't?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on February 17, 2021, 07:41:02 PM
Do you wear glasses 🤓 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 17, 2021, 08:35:46 PM
The font from the cut and paste carried over into NWs post.  It happens to me all the time. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 17, 2021, 09:02:40 PM
Coal and petro smelt steel, produce plastics and fibreglass and build more coal and petro powered energy producers,and that I can understand but I can't see where solar and wind can do the same on any level and that is my biggest struggle with this type of energy so far. 
Eg.how many wind turbines would it take to produce the power to build and supply all materials(non petroleum based) to produce a single wind turbine and is it sustainable? I have seen the pics of the huge blades being buried in the ground because it isn't feasible to recycle.
I would think that a renewable energy worthwhile pursuing would be able to produce enough power to build more of it's own on it's own.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 18, 2021, 05:11:21 AM
I know of a supersize blade hauler..  The engineer can make these things massive with a few clicks on solidworks and get wall street to sell it.. But then the transport crew, with dozens of extremely expensive guys on it,  spends 3 weeks literally sleeping in the truck just parked because the 300ft blade cant follow the state permit route and the permits are yanked and started over numerous times.   


This stuff causes a lot of overbudget and behind schedule.  You cant just click a pair of buildings out the the way or take the guard rail out of a 4 lane highway for a superload convoy to make the turn.  You cant pull them into a truckstop, you can hardly find places to pull them over so the drivers can take a leak.   Its a big, big job transporting the current mega turbines.  Incredibly expensive.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 18, 2021, 07:50:27 AM
Coal and petro smelt steel, produce plastics and fibreglass and build more coal and petro powered energy producers,and that I can understand but I can't see where solar and wind can do the same on any level and that is my biggest struggle with this type of energy so far.
Eg.how many wind turbines would it take to produce the power to build and supply all materials(non petroleum based) to produce a single wind turbine and is it sustainable? I have seen the pics of the huge blades being buried in the ground because it isn't feasible to recycle.
I would think that a renewable energy worthwhile pursuing would be able to produce enough power to build more of it's own on it's own.
Of course they do and are useful.  Nobody says otherwise.  My overall point would be that, increasingly, renewables are more cost effective than non renewables for many applications and it is interesting to see things happening so quickly.  
You've seen multiple car makers announce they are ditching petrol  GM, Porsche, Jaguar, etc.  Then on top of that Tesla pushing everyone.  Meanwhile the price of solar and battery storage is plummeting, 10% decreases in cost/unit of output on an annual basis.  Well pretty soon the only question gets to be how many batteries can a purpose get.  

One thing that is clear in history is that we can replace almost any process with something more useful-long distance travel from feet to horses to trains to cars to airplanes.  

Electric arc furnaces that produce 30% of the steel don't use coal but they take lots of energy, when energy became cheap companies like NUCOR launched to produce steel just using EAF.  When we get to the point that we have enough solar to power the grid it will actually have huge overcapacity on many days, tremendous, energy will just be free for the taking.  Smelt all the aluminum and iron you want, for nothing.  It will usher in all sorts of funky energy arbitrage opportunities and could further upend some traditional businesses.  The electric arc furnace is almost perfect for creating steel with renewables.

I couldn't agree more on the last point.  I think that is the basis underlying conservation; from forestry to energy.  You have to start somewhere and it has started and it is accelerating.  Currently solar panels are net net energy saving devices, the panels produce far more energy than is used in the production of the panel.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 18, 2021, 08:37:19 AM
At the end of the day the grid is not able to handle the present load on it, there is no way it is ready to handle transportation and dreamy EV heavy equipment. These came down last Saturday. 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG0975.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613655058)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34297/KIMG0976~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613655092)
 

They are still there now without a crew within 10 miles and more ice falling as I type. 

For all those who say we can be 100% electric in a few years what do you say to folks who use heat pumps and plug in vehicles tomorrow when the temps drop into the single digits? 

Last time I checked propane boiled off at -44F. There is something very odd about the Texas NG wells all freezing in above zero temps. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 18, 2021, 09:12:53 AM
On the heat pump thing, I helped install a ground loop geothermal setup up here in the frozen north where single digits can be a warm day. The guy is toasty warm but his electric bill went through the roof (oil bill went to $0 though). So then he built a nice big barn and covered the roof with PV panels. Now he makes more electricity than he uses in a year (net metered grid tied). No heat bill and no power bill. Lots of jealous folks on his road :D


NY Power Authority has 3x huge hydro dams and there is a private company with 27 hydro stations on a smaller river plus many other small dams some owned by municipalities etc. We are doing pretty well on power generation up here. There look to be a lot of solar farm installs on the horizon (several already complete) and we have some big wind farms as well.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on February 18, 2021, 09:21:33 AM
On the heat pump thing, I helped install a ground loop geothermal setup up here in the frozen north where single digits can be a warm day. The guy is toasty warm but his electric bill went through the roof (oil bill went to $0 though). So then he built a nice big barn and covered the roof with PV panels. Now he makes more electricity than he uses in a year (net metered grid tied). No heat bill and no power bill. Lots of jealous folks on his road :D


NY Power Authority has 3x huge hydro dams and there is a private company with 27 hydro stations on a smaller river plus many other small dams some owned by municipalities etc. We are doing pretty well on power generation up here. There look to be a lot of solar farm installs on the horizon (several already complete) and we have some big wind farms as well.
What happens if there is a hail storm with golf ball size hail 😂
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 18, 2021, 09:26:02 AM
On the heat pump thing, I helped install a ground loop geothermal setup up here in the frozen north where single digits can be a warm day. The guy is toasty warm but his electric bill went through the roof (oil bill went to $0 though). So then he built a nice big barn and covered the roof with PV panels. Now he makes more electricity than he uses in a year (net metered grid tied). No heat bill and no power bill. Lots of jealous folks on his road :D


NY Power Authority has 3x huge hydro dams and there is a private company with 27 hydro stations on a smaller river plus many other small dams some owned by municipalities etc. We are doing pretty well on power generation up here. There look to be a lot of solar farm installs on the horizon (several already complete) and we have some big wind farms as well.
What happens if there is a hail storm with golf ball size hail 😂
I don't know but if it ever happens we will sure find out! :D With this guy I guarantee all his stuff is insured. None of mine is but one time dropped a big red maple and the tops hit a few panels on the way down, all good :o The impact ratings on high quality panels are pretty impressive for what they are.


2" hail @ 75mph test:
Conergy PowerPlus Solar Panel Hail Test - YouTube (https://youtu.be/aI6K3xlgYoY)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 18, 2021, 10:42:33 AM




Electric arc furnaces that produce 30% of the steel don't use coal but they take lots of energy, when energy became cheap companies like NUCOR launched to produce steel just using EAF.  When we get to the point that we have enough solar to power the grid it will actually have huge overcapacity on many days, tremendous, energy will just be free for the taking.  Smelt all the aluminum and iron you want, for nothing.  It will usher in all sorts of funky energy arbitrage opportunities and could further upend some traditional businesses.  The electric arc furnace is almost perfect for creating steel with renewables.


It's easier to write such things than to implement them :D
Hydro and Nuke have been making "free" energy for decades applying the same logic. If solar or wind are the only possibilities on the table then we are definately stuck inside the box. I was really hoping there would be more discussion of the other alternative renewable energies out there.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 18, 2021, 11:17:18 AM




Electric arc furnaces that produce 30% of the steel don't use coal but they take lots of energy, when energy became cheap companies like NUCOR launched to produce steel just using EAF.  When we get to the point that we have enough solar to power the grid it will actually have huge overcapacity on many days, tremendous, energy will just be free for the taking.  Smelt all the aluminum and iron you want, for nothing.  It will usher in all sorts of funky energy arbitrage opportunities and could further upend some traditional businesses.  The electric arc furnace is almost perfect for creating steel with renewables.


It's easier to write such things than to implement them :D
Hydro and Nuke have been making "free" energy for decades applying the same logic. If solar or wind are the only possibilities on the table then we are definately stuck inside the box. I was really hoping there would be more discussion of the other alternative renewable energies out there.
Hydro has gotten pretty low, the issue with hydro is the huge amount of claims on the same resource limiting the ability to create power.  In Norway hydro and micro hydro are very close to 0, so close to 0 that when they export hydro it can force the nukes off line and Sweeden gave up and retired one early due to the hydro and wind combination.  Not every country is blessed with Norways unique geography (which is pretty darn awesome- really should be on everyones bucket list).   Nuke is and was always a bit of a fraud.  No where accounting for waste and risk.  Fusion ...well that could be the game breaker and right now we are all living off 1 fusion generator.  


I think solar kind of is it but I am interested in hearing about anything else new.  Solar $/ unit of output is marching lower at 10% a year.  I don't know what box you're checking but that is a pretty cool box.  The battery situation will take years to resolve just on the car front, tesla has plans to deliver 20 million cars in 10 years, that is an amazing amount of battery capacity by itself.  I could see battery constraints limiting overall impacts of renewables for the next 10 years...after that I could see a flood of battery storage coming on line.  
Wind is, to me, sort of a marginal niche thing.  Offshore wind could grow like crazy but as @mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722) says the transport of the blades is an issue.  There is an interesting note from the union of concerned scientist on wind turbine blade recycling issues.  Just read it while waiting for the sleet/freezing rain to end.  if anyone is interested just google it up.  


So rumors swirling around are that Tesla has also started the production of the Tesla Semi.  First 100 are in production, 2500 should be built this year based on orders submitted to parts suppliers.  
Going to have a call with the maker of the slovakian skid steer maker.  Could be neat.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 18, 2021, 11:48:26 AM




Electric arc furnaces that produce 30% of the steel don't use coal but they take lots of energy, when energy became cheap companies like NUCOR launched to produce steel just using EAF.  When we get to the point that we have enough solar to power the grid it will actually have huge overcapacity on many days, tremendous, energy will just be free for the taking.  Smelt all the aluminum and iron you want, for nothing.  It will usher in all sorts of funky energy arbitrage opportunities and could further upend some traditional businesses.  The electric arc furnace is almost perfect for creating steel with renewables.


It's easier to write such things than to implement them :D
Hydro and Nuke have been making "free" energy for decades applying the same logic. If solar or wind are the only possibilities on the table then we are definately stuck inside the box. I was really hoping there would be more discussion of the other alternative renewable energies out there.

Going to have a call with the maker of the slovakian skid steer maker.  Could be neat.  
Very cool, keep us in the loop on the skid steer.
I think a skid steer is a great starting point and would live to find a cheap burnt/blown up one for a conversion! Seems like great platform for cheap used forklift DC motor. Not leaving it 10miles in the woods (on purpose) so no worries about charging. New even from Eastern Europe would be out of my budget :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 18, 2021, 12:06:50 PM
On the heat pump thing, I helped install a ground loop geothermal setup up here in the frozen north where single digits can be a warm day. The guy is toasty warm but his electric bill went through the roof (oil bill went to $0 though). So then he built a nice big barn and covered the roof with PV panels. Now he makes more electricity than he uses in a year (net metered grid tied). No heat bill and no power bill. Lots of jealous folks on his road :D


NY Power Authority has 3x huge hydro dams and there is a private company with 27 hydro stations on a smaller river plus many other small dams some owned by municipalities etc. We are doing pretty well on power generation up here. There look to be a lot of solar farm installs on the horizon (several already complete) and we have some big wind farms as well.
That net metering turns into a big roof of useless glass when trees fall on lines and the grid goes down.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: gasman1075 on February 18, 2021, 12:57:13 PM
The pressure drop at the well head can impact the temperature significantly. Here in NY and the NE high pressure gas ( 1300-1500 psi ) has to be warmed when it comes off the pipe.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 18, 2021, 01:06:52 PM
On the heat pump thing, I helped install a ground loop geothermal setup up here in the frozen north where single digits can be a warm day. The guy is toasty warm but his electric bill went through the roof (oil bill went to $0 though). So then he built a nice big barn and covered the roof with PV panels. Now he makes more electricity than he uses in a year (net metered grid tied). No heat bill and no power bill. Lots of jealous folks on his road :D


NY Power Authority has 3x huge hydro dams and there is a private company with 27 hydro stations on a smaller river plus many other small dams some owned by municipalities etc. We are doing pretty well on power generation up here. There look to be a lot of solar farm installs on the horizon (several already complete) and we have some big wind farms as well.
That net metering turns into a big roof of useless glass when trees fall on lines and the grid goes down.  
Well, he can still power his own stuff if the sun is shining but with no storage is out of luck otherwise until he fires up backup generator. If there was a nuke plant, coal burner, natural gas, wind farm, whatever right next door that would be useless too with the grid down ???
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on February 18, 2021, 01:13:07 PM
Nova Scotia has North Americas only tidal power plant (opened in 1984) on the Annapolis River that has a peak output of 20 megawatts, because of the tide cycles it produces power on the lowering tide for about 5 hours twice a day, there have been installs of other tidal power projects for testing in the Bay of Fundy.

From the NS government website.

"Our Bay of Fundy’s tides push over 160 billion tonnes of water twice a day. That’s more than four times the combined flow of every freshwater river in the world!

That’s also an estimated potential of up to 60,000 megawatts (MW) of energy, of which up to 2,500 MW may be extracted without significant impact on our marine environment. However, the Province is aiming for a more modest 15 to 20 MW on the path to reducing cost before the goal of 300 MW of energy can be reached."

A new tidal project under way, the assembly site is about 20 min drive from me. The generating sight is only a bit further as the crow flies but would take another 2 hours of driving and a short ferry ride to get there.
https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/projects/2021/01/fundy-tidal-power-project-nears-finish-line (https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn/news/projects/2021/01/fundy-tidal-power-project-nears-finish-line)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 18, 2021, 01:21:28 PM
I AP news reported this morning that FORD is going all electric in their passenger vehicle line by 2030 in Europe. And like GM and Tesla are looking to produce fulling autonomous vehicles. GM will be mostly electric by 2035, globally. So looks like to me that we are in an auto revolution, like it or not.

Ford to go all electric in Europe by 2030 (https://apnews.com/article/technology-europe-products-and-services-cologne-new-products-and-services-9fd2178e1b972a8cbb71a562c84ad774)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on February 18, 2021, 01:23:00 PM
Part of this is getting into how the future grid is controlled. Distributed production can bring it back up between breakers. We aren't there at this point but that is part of the discussion, it hardens the system much like small farms do not weaken the food system they help secure it. Y'all are whipping the model T with your buggy whip, it's an understandable reaction but nothing in this old world sits still as much as we want it to. Change is usually incremental based on the last incremental change rather than flashy innovations out of the blue. We resist change until it proves itself and then we say "I always knew that"  :D

There's one heck of a nuclear generator going on under our feet. I can't remember HS geology well, maybe ~40 miles thick of crust above the hot core. If I'm remembering, I think the Soviets got about 8 miles down near the Norwegian border some years ago.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 18, 2021, 02:13:04 PM
Part of this is getting into how the future grid is controlled. Distributed production can bring it back up between breakers. We aren't there at this point but that is part of the discussion, it hardens the system much like small farms do not weaken the food system they help secure it. Y'all are whipping the model T with your buggy whip, it's an understandable reaction but nothing in this old world sits still as much as we want it to. Change is usually incremental based on the last incremental change rather than flashy innovations out of the blue.
I agree with the small farms secure the system and even more so that we individually do our part with victory garden style growing and preserving.
On the horse and buggy vs the auto it was private tinkerer/inventors that developed the engines then the auto with no government mandates so it helped to cull out the bad ideas and people took notice and began to invest or purchase and so far there are very few in this discussion that have invested or purchased solar or wind so I wonder why not.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 18, 2021, 02:17:44 PM
On the heat pump thing, I helped install a ground loop geothermal setup up here in the frozen north where single digits can be a warm day. The guy is toasty warm but his electric bill went through the roof (oil bill went to $0 though). So then he built a nice big barn and covered the roof with PV panels. Now he makes more electricity than he uses in a year (net metered grid tied). No heat bill and no power bill. Lots of jealous folks on his road :D


NY Power Authority has 3x huge hydro dams and there is a private company with 27 hydro stations on a smaller river plus many other small dams some owned by municipalities etc. We are doing pretty well on power generation up here. There look to be a lot of solar farm installs on the horizon (several already complete) and we have some big wind farms as well.
That net metering turns into a big roof of useless glass when trees fall on lines and the grid goes down.  
Well, he can still power his own stuff if the sun is shining but with no storage is out of luck otherwise until he fires up backup generator. If there was a nuke plant, coal burner, natural gas, wind farm, whatever right next door that would be useless too with the grid down ???
Yep but at least with solar you can put in a transfer switch and a powerwall or other battery and in the event of a blackout you are still up.  No different than having a whole house generator.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 18, 2021, 02:36:51 PM
Part of this is getting into how the future grid is controlled. Distributed production can bring it back up between breakers. We aren't there at this point but that is part of the discussion, it hardens the system much like small farms do not weaken the food system they help secure it. Y'all are whipping the model T with your buggy whip, it's an understandable reaction but nothing in this old world sits still as much as we want it to. Change is usually incremental based on the last incremental change rather than flashy innovations out of the blue.
 so far there are very few in this discussion that have invested or purchased solar or wind so I wonder why not.
I wonder how many people have retirement funds that are partially invested in alternative energy and they don't know it? ;D
For most people it just seems so much easier and normal to tie into the grid or stay tied into the grid and not worry about making your own power. If such a thing as a power grid existed here it would have been severely tempting for us.
Then again when I talk to someone else and they say their power was out for a few days-- well sorry, we just didn't know because ours stayed on the whole time. If it does break it is on me to fix it not wonder when the poor guys on a line crew will manage to get here during an ice storm so bad there are travel bans.
One suggestion is to not cheap out, buy GOOD stuff. Several cheap inverters caused me problems early on. "Buy once cry once" like most other things. If you buy the cheapest panels, cheapest charge controller, cheapest batteries, cheapest inverter, you might really end up hating "solar power"!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 18, 2021, 02:39:00 PM
Part of this is getting into how the future grid is controlled. Distributed production can bring it back up between breakers. We aren't there at this point but that is part of the discussion, it hardens the system much like small farms do not weaken the food system they help secure it. Y'all are whipping the model T with your buggy whip, it's an understandable reaction but nothing in this old world sits still as much as we want it to. Change is usually incremental based on the last incremental change rather than flashy innovations out of the blue.
I agree with the small farms secure the system and even more so that we individually do our part with victory garden style growing and preserving.
On the horse and buggy vs the auto it was private tinkerer/inventors that developed the engines then the auto with no government mandates so it helped to cull out the bad ideas and people took notice and began to invest or purchase and so far there are very few in this discussion that have invested or purchased solar or wind so I wonder why not.
A couple of posters have solar/battery systems.  But we are way way past the tinker stage, tinker stage was in 1970s.  This is 40 years onwards and wafers are cooked in billion dollar fabs, all covered in tempered glass that can take the very worst hail.  There is just no money to be made in tinkering to create components.   

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34089/Chinas-largest-solar-plus-storage-project-1200x647.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1613676756)
 
That's a press release image of the largest solar farm/plant at the moment of completion.  2.2GW- roughly the same output as a normal nuke plant in the USA.  It includes a 200mwh battery storage.  It's huge.  Probably bumping on 10k acres.  Out in the middle of a desert.  You could put 100 of those in the SW corner of NV and have the USA powered.  
I for one don't really want to see so many of these but the utilities love them.  I'd rather have distributed power on houses and a bit of storage.  Reduces impacts on the grid and gives homeowners more control.  Might be a bit more mixed bag in dense urban areas I guess.  
Tesla solar roof was a project between 3m and Tesla to put the solar into the roof.  It's my preference as it looks good and produces energy.  There may be competitors in this field but the underlying bit and pieces are coming from billion dollar entities.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 18, 2021, 02:45:01 PM
I AP news reported this morning that FORD is going all electric in their passenger vehicle line by 2030 in Europe. And like GM and Tesla are looking to produce fulling autonomous vehicles. GM will be mostly electric by 2035, globally. So looks like to me that we are in an auto revolution, like it or not.

Ford to go all electric in Europe by 2030 (https://apnews.com/article/technology-europe-products-and-services-cologne-new-products-and-services-9fd2178e1b972a8cbb71a562c84ad774)
Yep at a certain point once EVs reach scale ICEs just can't compete, it might be another 15 years but in the auto industry that is almost tomorrow.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 18, 2021, 02:50:07 PM
The pressure drop at the well head can impact the temperature significantly. Here in NY and the NE high pressure gas ( 1300-1500 psi ) has to be warmed when it comes off the pipe.  
Ahhh is that why?  I was wondering why TX oil and gas lines were having so many troubles and they drill and pump just fine in colder locales.  Is warming simple but slightly expensive?  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 18, 2021, 02:53:13 PM
NW,
I am looking forward to the day you start a thread on your own personal solar install where we can follow your highs and lows and get real numbers not press releases. I know some people that are off grid on solar and a toaster is a real luxury and only certain times of the year so that is where I wonder how to jump from there to heating a foundry works.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on February 18, 2021, 02:58:49 PM
NW,
I am looking forward to the day you start a thread on your own personal solar install where we can follow your highs and lows and get real numbers not press releases. I know some people that are off grid on solar and a toaster is a real luxury and only certain times of the year so that is where I wonder how to jump from there to heating a foundry works.
Nativewolf has some valid points. That’s ridiculous a toaster. You can absolutely power your home successfully. Just like anything else using quality products and panels
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on February 18, 2021, 03:06:07 PM
Everybody sure seems to love cordless stuff 😜
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 18, 2021, 03:08:28 PM
The toaster stories are true Summer fall never winter. What type do you use and what is your capacity?
I would love to hear about member's solar and wind setups,brands ,do's and don'ts and lots of pics.
Supplement wood heat with solar or whatever I am interested and always have been.
I already wrote about our friends in Pemberton that were off grid solar and they are the ones that struggled to keep their guests in power during the winter
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on February 18, 2021, 03:11:52 PM
They might be but I just watched a video the other night that was unrelated about a 230 amp welder review and interestingly the guy was running it off his home solar and said it worked fine
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 18, 2021, 03:13:53 PM
California has 40 million people and Texas has 30. Neither appears to have an adequate electrical grid to sustain their current electrical usage.

We cancelled proven technology(oil&gas) and haven't built its replacement in the most litigious society in history. The Treasury Dep.t probably couldn't get a factory built to print and give away $1000 bills without somebody suing to stop it.

What could possibly go wrong? Build them, use them, perfect them. I am all for it. The issue is not technology its people who think they have all the answers when in reality they don't even know all of the questions. We never should have went to plastic bags(it will save the earth don't ya know). The consequences of microplastics might destroy us before CO2 has the chance. There will be a downside they are either hiding or haven't discovered.

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on February 18, 2021, 03:16:51 PM
Sure is funny how GM and Ford where O so quiet on electric cars until Tesla made strides and there stock went through the roof. Now there on the bandwagon and trying to make some noise 😂
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 18, 2021, 03:23:47 PM
They might be but I just watched a video the other night that was unrelated about a 230 amp welder review and interestingly the guy was running it off his home solar and said it worked fine
That would be a great setup to have power from a wood gas generator like Victory Gasworks used to sell that would charge batteries in the darker months and run high loads like welders and other larger appliances. I hope to either build an off grid system for ourselves or assist one of my children. We looked at 166 acres near here last fall that had potential with a small creek for hydro but it fell through.
We may end up with our own hybrid solar/hydro or woodgas CHP it's just finding the right time and place and we are always watching. I won't ask for or expect subsidies
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on February 18, 2021, 03:25:30 PM
California has 40 million people and Texas has 30. Neither appears to have an adequate electrical grid to sustain their current electrical usage.

We cancelled proven technology(oil&gas) and haven't built its replacement in the most litigious society in history. The Treasury Dep.t probably couldn't get a factory built to print and give away $1000 bills without somebody suing to stop it.

What could possibly go wrong? Build them, use them, perfect them. I am all for it. The issue is not technology its people who think they have all the answers when in reality they don't even know all of the questions. We never should have went to plastic bags(it will save the earth don't ya know). The consequences of microplastics might destroy us before CO2 has the chance. There will be a downside they are either hiding or haven't discovered.
Like Trump said we are so far behind other countries of are roads and structures. Are airports are like a third world countries compared to many in the rest of the world. Are we really ready for alternative on a large scale yet 😂
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 18, 2021, 03:26:19 PM
The toaster stories are true Summer fall never winter. What type do you use and what is your capacity?
I would love to hear about member's solar and wind setups,brands ,do's and don'ts and lots of pics
Those people have old, small, inefficient or some combo of the three systems sadly. Been there :-\


Preface: We are in an absolutely terrible spot for making solar power! Way up North, in the forest(trees) between two very close tall rock ridges that mean we get -at a minimum- 2hrs less sun than we would otherwise per day. Our system is also tiny compared to most.


With 6x 300W Canadian Solar panels and 9x Battle Born 100Ah LiFePo4 (designed and assembled in US, couldn't do any better than that sadly) batteries we run two chest freezers, refrigerator/freezer, lights, fans, tv/dvd player, kitchen appliances, water pump, small air compressor, charge all my battery powered tools, laptop, whatever. Bad habit of using the TV to put me to sleep at night (out like a light within 10min but then it stays on)


In the winter usually run generator a couple hours every 2-3 nights to top off batteries, would not need to do this if we were still stingy with juice like your friends that can't or won't use a toaster. Probably don't need to do it at all and may be misguided in thinking it will prolong battery life. Our batteries are rated for something like 4000-5000 full discharges which would be more than 10yrs if you completely drained it every single day which basically never happens for us. Sometimes but rarely "need"(see above) to charge more during the 2-3 week stretch of December/January when the days are shortest and it is cloudy the entire time.


This is an attempt at full disclosure since you seem genuinely interested in real world examples.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 18, 2021, 03:32:52 PM
I am and thanks.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 18, 2021, 03:34:07 PM
They might be but I just watched a video the other night that was unrelated about a 230 amp welder review and interestingly the guy was running it off his home solar and said it worked fine
That would be a great setup to have power from a wood gas generator like Victory Gasworks used to sell that would charge batteries in the darker months and run high loads like welders and other larger appliances. I hope to either build an off grid system for ourselves or assist one of my children. We looked at 166 acres near here last fall that had potential with a small creek for hydro but it fell through.
We may end up with our own hybrid solar/hydro or woodgas CHP it's just finding the right time and place and we are always watching. I won't ask for or expect subsidies
@Puffergas (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=9539) runs woodgas stuff. Always wanted to give that a go.
There are also some Methane digesters nearby that I've visited but they have some cold climate issues and generally need to be in a heated building it seems like. Very cool stuff though and one of the places was running the same on demand LPG water heater we have off of it as well as an LPG generator.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 18, 2021, 04:03:58 PM
Yes he's been playing with woodgas for 40 years and does all kinds of interesting things.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 18, 2021, 04:16:11 PM
when we prepared to go to Philmont scout ranch, there was a stove that could boil water and charge a cell phone.  of course it burned wood.

Amazon.com: BioLite CampStove 2 Wood Burning and USB Charging Camping Stove: Sports & Outdoors (https://www.amazon.com/BioLite-CampStove-Campstove-Burning-Charging/dp/B01FWRICY6/ref=dp_prsubs_2?pd_rd_i=B07NS565VS&psc=1)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 18, 2021, 04:39:07 PM
Along the same technology, this local company is heating a large part of our town with biomass and is just up the road from us a quarter mile and they build systems and send them around the province and worldwide. There is zero smell and the only time you can see anything from the stack is when it gets sub zero celsius temps you can see water vapor. The north end of the line ends across the road from us at the tire shop.

CHBC attends Fink Machine Open House 2012 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE0ezWs1klE)





Forging ahead: Update on Fink Enderby?s biomass district energy system - Canadian Biomass Magazine (https://www.canadianbiomassmagazine.ca/forging-ahead-update-on-fink-enderbys-privately-owned-district-energy-system/)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 18, 2021, 05:29:49 PM
there has also been some interesting work on biochar material and cookers that create gas to run a generator.  The issue with those is the input material is very very picky, if it is not perfect than it fouls up.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Old Greenhorn on February 18, 2021, 06:01:08 PM
when we prepared to go to Philmont scout ranch, there was a stove that could boil water and charge a cell phone.  of course it burned wood.

Amazon.com: BioLite CampStove 2 Wood Burning and USB Charging Camping Stove: Sports & Outdoors (https://www.amazon.com/BioLite-CampStove-Campstove-Burning-Charging/dp/B01FWRICY6/ref=dp_prsubs_2?pd_rd_i=B07NS565VS&psc=1)
At 2.1 pounds I bet it didn't make it into the weight budget?  ;D :D Of course, no wood fires allowed anyway, so... We used a spider leg type stove, really light and so tiny they could be hard to find in your pack.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 18, 2021, 06:40:09 PM
Quote
Supplement wood heat with solar or whatever I am interested and always have been.


Wood in early morning hours.

Quick furnace fire with minimal coals in my Napolean model 150 wood fired furnace - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiV7XpYNkps)

Solar in the afternoon.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/big-window-Jan2020.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/temp-Jan3-2020.jpg)

I have to draw the vertical blinds many days unless you want it even hotter. This is dead of winter. It's gotten over 90F in a 34' x 32' space, just afternoon solar. So most sunny days in winter I burn a early morning fire and then a 7:00 O'clock'ish fire for the night.

Down stairs it stays 77-80F in the day with sun coming in two big windows under porches. Summer sun is higher in the sky so no sun directly on them windows. Love'n it. :)

In summer I set a large room air conditioner in window up stairs, rated for about 900 square feet, any more and you need 220 volt. But that cools the whole house and the bill only adds about $30 a month. We have been having hot summers the last few years. No more 70's F summers up here it seems. $140 is the most I have ever paid for electric in any month. Mostly around $120.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 18, 2021, 06:51:37 PM
Quote
Supplement wood heat with solar or whatever I am interested and always have been.


Wood in early morning hours.

Quick furnace fire with minimal coals in my Napolean model 150 wood fired furnace - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiV7XpYNkps)

Solar in the afternoon.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/big-window-Jan2020.jpg)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/temp-Jan3-2020.jpg)

I have to draw the vertical blinds many days unless you want it even hotter. This is dead of winter. It's gotten over 90F in a 34' x 32' space, just afternoon solar. So most sunny days in winter I burn a early morning fire and then a 7:00 O'clock'ish fire for the night.

Down stairs it stays 77-80F in the day with sun coming in two big windows under porches. Summer sun is higher in the sky so no sun directly on them windows. Love'n it. :)

In summer a set a large room air conditioner in window up stairs, rated for about 900 square feet, any more and you need 220 volt. But that cools the whole house and the bill only adds about $30 a month. We have been having hot summers the last few years. No more 70's F summers up here it seems.
That makes way too much sense. Carbon is evil, even just a tad. You need to be cancelled.  ::)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 18, 2021, 06:53:28 PM
Carbon neutral don't ya know, just recycling it. ;D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 18, 2021, 06:56:23 PM
@Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199) here is a summer picture, only 4x 300w and some smaller mixed panels (separate charge controllers). Is the woodshed roof with nothing underneath, acts like a bad kiln


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37318/0B78DBC2-1BF8-4D0F-A6A3-E1669CF62C3A.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1613692314)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 18, 2021, 07:44:54 PM
Well that's pretty cool and the 2-3 weeks charging in the winter would be do-able.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 18, 2021, 08:14:05 PM
We are in an absolutely terrible spot for making solar power! Way up North, in the forest(trees) between two very close tall rock ridges that mean we get -at a minimum- 2hrs less sun than we would otherwise per day.


Even then that's not such a big deal. The first and last hour of the day are pretty low output for solar. Sunlight is filtered though more air, and hitting the panels at an angle, so way less than rated output. So you aren't missing much. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 19, 2021, 08:14:17 AM
Thanks! Yeah it works fine, just illustrating that even in a marginal spot it is feasible. By 11am any time of the year if the sun is out the batteries are fully charged, sun might not have peeked over ridge until 9am.

Smart people pole mount or roof mount but it has been a long time since someone accused me of being one of those :D It is a lot easier to get 2ft of snow off of them with roof rake being down on the woodshed like that.

Can picture in my mind a small electric firewood processor based on electric chainsaw/splitter with a PV panel canopy to keep you out of the sun. Run pole wood through it all summer long with a pina colada or something
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 19, 2021, 08:28:51 AM
We are in an absolutely terrible spot for making solar power! Way up North, in the forest(trees) between two very close tall rock ridges that mean we get -at a minimum- 2hrs less sun than we would otherwise per day.


Even then that's not such a big deal. The first and last hour of the day are pretty low output for solar. Sunlight is filtered though more air, and hitting the panels at an angle, so way less than rated output. So you aren't missing much.
@mudfarmer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=27318) have you looked at getting a powerwall?  Or a Sonnen eco or LG resu ?  Could string together some more panels on the roof, bank a bit more.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 19, 2021, 08:41:22 AM
We are in an absolutely terrible spot for making solar power! Way up North, in the forest(trees) between two very close tall rock ridges that mean we get -at a minimum- 2hrs less sun than we would otherwise per day.


Even then that's not such a big deal. The first and last hour of the day are pretty low output for solar. Sunlight is filtered though more air, and hitting the panels at an angle, so way less than rated output. So you aren't missing much.
@mudfarmer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=27318) have you looked at getting a powerwall?  Or a Sonnen eco or LG resu ?  Could string together some more panels on the roof, bank a bit more.
Got a problem where I just can't stop buying land and sawmills and tractors and chainsaws and stuff ??? It really eats into the project budget!!


Do have 2x more panels roof mounted on house now and two flat plate water heater collectors to rebuild and get up there. Got those at an auction for $20 because nobody knew what they were including auctioneer. Need to replace the insulation it is a little busted up.


The powerwall so far I haven't seen where you can just buy one and install it. Looks like the others are the same? They want you to design and order through them and then have a certified installer do the work. Am I right that they are the same as what we have now (LiFePo4 batteries and an inverter) just in a sleek modern looking package?


We can add more batteries and panels but probably will not bother until the new house is built. You see there is another 45 acres for sale out back and we are working on land baron status  ;D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 19, 2021, 11:34:57 AM
Someone asked: Do you want to sell land? The response was: Why? End of conversation. ;D :D  Forest land taxes up here are just about nothing. One load of wood would pay taxes for 50 years. :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: JJ on February 19, 2021, 07:48:36 PM
The Perseverance is nuclear powered, its a Mars rover the size of a SUV.

What would need to be done to make a N.P. sub power plant as decentralized, local source of power?

maybe mentioned already, didn't read this whole thread..

       JJ
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 19, 2021, 08:02:33 PM
So information is coming out that Texas ERCOT requested the ability to generate additional power ahead of the cold snap and was not allowed to use fossil fuel resources to do so per the Department of Energy.  Also it came out that west Texas, which is not part of ERCOT and didn't have the same restriction, suffered no similar failures, but did experience the same temperatures.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 19, 2021, 09:26:16 PM
I don't think feds  (FERC) have anything to do with ERCOT, the whole point of most of TX being an island was TX didn't want feds regulating it in 1935.  ERCOT regulated utilities do not connect, thus there is no federal oversight except of the Nukes (1 of which also shut down due to cold) and FERC doesn't regulate TX electric utilities.    El Paso (which is regulated by FERC)  is the one major town that is not part of ERCOT (as well as rural north TX up by the panhandle and east TX) did have some issues just like OK and Kansas.  


 El Paso electric made the decision after 2011 to winterize their infrastructure, not sure if that was forced on them by the 2011 FERC investigation or if they did it independently but all of TX was advised to do so.  The panhandle and east TX had some blackouts like Kansas and Ok and Iowa but they were minor by comparison.  Also windmills in Iowa (40% of generation) did not freeze even though they were much colder than TX.  

I would guess that lots of people are going to be installing whole house backup generators powered by diesel or propane tanks or solar panels with Powerwall type backup capabilities (run a heat pump for a day or two on battery).  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on February 19, 2021, 09:29:42 PM
So information is coming out that Texas ERCOT requested the ability to generate additional power ahead of the cold snap and was not allowed to use fossil fuel resources to do so per the Department of Energy.  Also it came out that west Texas, which is not part of ERCOT and didn't have the same restriction, suffered no similar failures, but did experience the same temperatures.  
Where is this information coming from?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 19, 2021, 09:32:22 PM
We are in an absolutely terrible spot for making solar power! Way up North, in the forest(trees) between two very close tall rock ridges that mean we get -at a minimum- 2hrs less sun than we would otherwise per day.


Even then that's not such a big deal. The first and last hour of the day are pretty low output for solar. Sunlight is filtered though more air, and hitting the panels at an angle, so way less than rated output. So you aren't missing much.
@mudfarmer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=27318) have you looked at getting a powerwall?  Or a Sonnen eco or LG resu ?  Could string together some more panels on the roof, bank a bit more.
Got a problem where I just can't stop buying land and sawmills and tractors and chainsaws and stuff ??? It really eats into the project budget!!


Do have 2x more panels roof mounted on house now and two flat plate water heater collectors to rebuild and get up there. Got those at an auction for $20 because nobody knew what they were including auctioneer. Need to replace the insulation it is a little busted up.


The powerwall so far I haven't seen where you can just buy one and install it. Looks like the others are the same? They want you to design and order through them and then have a certified installer do the work. Am I right that they are the same as what we have now (LiFePo4 batteries and an inverter) just in a sleek modern looking package?


We can add more batteries and panels but probably will not bother until the new house is built. You see there is another 45 acres for sale out back and we are working on land baron status  ;D
You would have to buy the powerwall off EBAY or somewhere, not new from Tesla.  I think this is to keep people from bricking them due to battery install issues.   I mostly follow the powerwall prices which have bumped up and down depending on the gigafactory capacity.  Currently every watt of battery is spoken for by a car so they raised prices by 20% on the powerwalls.  Makes sense.  Tesla is hemorrhaging money building the 4 new plants (Berlin, Austin, and a battery plant in Germany and a plant beside GF1 in feemont) and now they are planning 2 more that I know of and doubling the shanghi plant.  Lots and lots of $.  It is going to be a couple of years before powerwalls come down in price again would be my guess.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 19, 2021, 10:21:30 PM
I am on my phone since we still don't have power and can't get it to make a link but DOE Order #202-21-1 dated February 14, 2021 8:51 PM signed by David Huizenga, Acting Secretary of Energy is what you want to read. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on February 19, 2021, 10:35:48 PM
A quick read of the order looks like "do what you need to do pollutionwise to produce power but only for as long as absolutely needed"

What am I missing?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 19, 2021, 10:44:16 PM
The part that speaks to limiting emissions output to present levels. I can pull it up again tomorrow on my laptop. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on February 19, 2021, 11:09:03 PM
B. To minimize adverse environmental impacts, this Order limits operation of dispatched units to the times and within the parameters determined by ERCOT for reliability purposes. Consistent with good utility practice, ERCOT shall exhaust all reasonably and Department of Energy Order No. 202-21-1 Page 3 of 4 practically available resources, including available imports, demand response, and identified behind-the-meter generation resources selected to minimize an increase in emissions, to the extent that such resources provide support to maintain grid reliability, prior to dispatching the Specified Resources. ERCOT shall provide a daily notification to the Department reporting each generating unit that has been designated to use the allowance and operated in reliance on the allowances contained in this Order. In furtherance of the foregoing and, in each case, subject to the exhaustion of all available imports, demand response, and identified behind-the-meter generation resources selected to minimize an increase in emissions available to support grid reliability: (i) with respect to any Specified Resource that is an ERCOT Generation Resource or Settlement Only Generator whose operator notifies ERCOT that the unit is unable, or expected to be unable, to produce at its maximum output due to an emission or effluent limit in any federal environmental permit, ERCOT shall ensure that such Specified Resource is only allowed to exceed any such limit during a period for which ERCOT has declared an Energy Emergency Alert (EEA) Level 2 or Level 3.

Or as I'm seeing it, permission to hit the go button but only until you get the emergency under control.

The emergency was predictable and preventable and happens in TX every time it gets very cold. They are running with equipment that is unprotected out in the weather. That is not really an emergency, that is stupid. Unfortunately it affects the innocent. This is not an issue of "green vs conventional". This is what happens when you don't build anything well.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 20, 2021, 03:52:18 AM
A fellow I follow on Youtube, his situation in Tx. Not fully charged and gas tank almost empty in the Chevy Volt. :D Not funny, but I still got a chuckle when he said that.

Texas in Crisis - My house is ruined! - YouTube

 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc4_PnKoea4)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 20, 2021, 05:40:36 AM
I betcha demand for 1000gal propane tanks, generators, and vent free heaters will climb through the roof in Texas. The "grid" is  already controlled and/or regulated by bureaucrats. People in other states who did winterize their power infra-structure were also subjected to rolling blackouts compliments of the powers that be.  Central "planning" at its best. I prefer to make my own arrangements whenever possible. Converting from fossil fuels takes that choice away as there is no economical way to store or generate the amount of electricity required run a home for 2 days let alone two weeks in adverse conditions. A 1000 gals of propane that I can afford, can carry me 2 years. I remain a prepared skeptic who has endured 3 weeks in mid winter with no power because the utility didn't maintain the trimming of the right of way. I can't oversee those things or even possibly know all the intricacies of building and maintaining a power grid. I have however been around long enough to know that blizzards, drought, floods, tornadoes, and earthquakes are neither isolated nor unforeseen events. Throw a couple trillion dollars to winterize/modernize/computerize the "system" to insure "it" never happens again and next year it will be a 100 year earthquake or computer virus that shuts it down.

Debate all you want about plan "A" but anyone who doesn't incorporate a plan "B" is headed for disaster.

We thankfully did not lose power during the recent ice/snow events but there is no money better spent than on redundant means to provide food and shelter for ones family. In the race for progress it sometimes seems the essential life lessons are forgotten.



Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 20, 2021, 06:29:17 AM
I betcha demand for 1000gal propane tanks, generators, and vent free heaters will climb through the roof in Texas. The "grid" is  already controlled and/or regulated by bureaucrats. People in other states who did winterize their power infra-structure were also subjected to rolling blackouts compliments of the powers that be.  Central "planning" at its best. I prefer to make my own arrangements whenever possible. Converting from fossil fuels takes that choice away as there is no economical way to store or generate the amount of electricity required run a home for 2 days let alone two weeks in adverse conditions. A 1000 gals of propane that I can afford, can carry me 2 years. I remain a prepared skeptic who has endured 3 weeks in mid winter with no power because the utility didn't maintain the trimming of the right of way. I can't oversee those things or even possibly know all the intricacies of building and maintaining a power grid. I have however been around long enough to know that blizzards, drought, floods, tornadoes, and earthquakes are neither isolated nor unforeseen events. Throw a couple trillion dollars to winterize/modernize/computerize the "system" to insure "it" never happens again and next year it will be a 100 year earthquake or computer virus that shuts it down.

Debate all you want about plan "A" but anyone who doesn't incorporate a plan "B" is headed for disaster.

We thankfully did not lose power during the recent ice/snow events but there is no money better spent than on redundant means to provide food and shelter for ones family. In the race for progress it sometimes seems the essential life lessons are forgotten.
I agree, once a century maybe not but every 10 years? A good friend in Houston called, water dripping from his ceiling.  He'd cut water, opened taps to drip- general good prep but forgot to drain his instant hot water system and a pipe cracked.  Power came back and they cut on water and ..ceiling is dripping.   A similar story must be happening all over TX.  Residential claims will be huge, unless you were in El Paso or East TX.
 I bet it sales of diesel generators and propane tanks go through the roof.   Solar panel + battery installs in TX have been just fine, the one friend that has that in TX never lost power.  It's another option and one that likely pays off quick in a hot TX summer, I think the payback there is only 5 years.   
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 20, 2021, 06:51:43 AM
I am on my phone since we still don't have power and can't get it to make a link but DOE Order #202-21-1 dated February 14, 2021 8:51 PM signed by David Huizenga, Acting Secretary of Energy is what you want to read.
Yeah Dept of Energy, FERC in particular is not much worried about in TX. They don't regulate ERCOT.  What they can do is grant exemptions to EPA regulated outputs in the case of an emergency.  This order is permitting ERCOT to let power companies go wild without getting in trouble with the EPA because the Dept of energy has used emergency powers.  As @Don P (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=17) says, it is an order saying hit the green button.  ERCOT had already hit the green button though, days earlier and this sort of order is a formality requested by utilities to make sure they are legal.
ERCOT knew it was going to be a wind free week so that wind production would be low, expected to generate less than 10% of the power needed.  They had told gas generators to ramp up.  And, you know what mostly they did.  Everything was working fine til too many gas wells started to fail.  Then it all cascaded into trouble so much so that a Nuke partially shut down.  Despite that the generating capacity came back quickly as solar added a boost in the daylight hours and businesses closed.  2 days later almost everything was ok but those 2 days likely ruptured plumbing in a few hundred thousand homes.  Going to be a mess.  Wonder if the lesson sticks this time and they simply follow the guidelines and raise utility rates to cover weather proofing critical assets?   Iowa and Kansas and Ok had marginal issues despite colder weather.   Issues, sure.  Suburbs without power for 2 days in terrible cold, no.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 21, 2021, 06:10:03 PM
Coal and petro smelt steel, produce plastics and fibreglass and build more coal and petro powered energy producers,and that I can understand but I can't see where solar and wind can do the same on any level and that is my biggest struggle with this type of energy so far.
I would think that a renewable energy worthwhile pursuing would be able to produce enough power to build more of it's own on it's own.
This is the closest I've seen so far to getting there. Time will tell
Quote
Steel has become an essential material in our modern world. But the steel making industry is responsible for 7% of all global greenhouse gas emissions. That has to be reduced by at least 60% by 2050 if we are to meet our net carbon zero targets. A solution has been found though, and it replaces carbon with hydrogen. The question is, can it be scaled up quickly enough?

Fossil free steel. Another giant step towards net carbon zero? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywHJt88H5YQ)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: snowstorm on February 21, 2021, 07:02:52 PM
someone said well when the model t came out the horses faded away. not really still plenty of them going up and down the road here. the Amish have plenty of them 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Roxie on February 22, 2021, 05:41:03 AM
Yes, yes they do!  Interestingly, Cowboy Bob and his livestock rig was listed by the State Police under large animal resources as an Amish tow truck. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 22, 2021, 06:36:46 AM
that is funny! :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 22, 2021, 07:29:13 AM
@Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199)  This was an interesting article about NUCOR setting up first steel plant to be powered by wind.  Electric Arc Furnaces are ideal for wind power, when there is too much wind and the variable costs go to 0 then turn the smelter on and make steel.  You normally get a few days headsup.  Anyway, this is really focused on recycled steel (electric arc furnaces) and not new iron ore but I thought you'd find it interesting.

First US steel plants powered by wind, solar energy are coming (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/07/first-us-steel-plants-powered-by-wind-solar-energy-are-coming.html)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: brianJ on February 22, 2021, 12:34:40 PM
@Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199)  This was an interesting article about NUCOR setting up first steel plant to be powered by wind.  Electric Arc Furnaces are ideal for wind power, when there is too much wind and the variable costs go to 0 then turn the smelter on and make steel.  You normally get a few days headsup.  Anyway, this is really focused on recycled steel (electric arc furnaces) and not new iron ore but I thought you'd find it interesting.

First US steel plants powered by wind, solar energy are coming (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/07/first-us-steel-plants-powered-by-wind-solar-energy-are-coming.html)
Article claims a $250 million investment &  250 well-paid workers.   Those electric arc furnaces are going to be Mon thru Fri no matter the wind blowing or not.    I cant see how the money will work unless steel is being made all the time.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 22, 2021, 02:21:32 PM
@Paul_H (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=199)  This was an interesting article about NUCOR setting up first steel plant to be powered by wind.  Electric Arc Furnaces are ideal for wind power, when there is too much wind and the variable costs go to 0 then turn the smelter on and make steel.  You normally get a few days headsup.  Anyway, this is really focused on recycled steel (electric arc furnaces) and not new iron ore but I thought you'd find it interesting.

First US steel plants powered by wind, solar energy are coming (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/07/first-us-steel-plants-powered-by-wind-solar-energy-are-coming.html)
Article claims a $250 million investment &  250 well-paid workers.   Those electric arc furnaces are going to be Mon thru Fri no matter the wind blowing or not.    I cant see how the money will work unless steel is being made all the time.
It is all nucor does, recycled steel with arc furnaces and they are very sensitive to wholesale power rates.  They know how to make it work, my guess would be they are agreeing to some higher than normal wind rate (which can be really low) so the utility can buy wind power from somewhere else when it is not blowing in MO.  The US is blessed with an abundance of wind but it will slowly lose out to solar over time (my opinion based on trend lines).  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 22, 2021, 02:25:44 PM
I agree Brian, it's the pie in the sky part of it all. I wouldn't invest in it.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on February 22, 2021, 02:28:05 PM
Native wolf, please don't tag me in this thread I already check in and read the posts a couple of times a day
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 22, 2021, 05:00:54 PM
The cold, hard truth about ice on turbine blades (https://www.windpowerengineering.com/the-cold-hard-truth-about-ice-on-turbine-blades/)

The article is from wind farms in Canada. I strongly doubt these same measures which are costly would be used in Texas. I also strongly doubt these measures are even used in Minnesota as during the recent cold snap one wind farm near me which is normally running at 100 % of the turbines operating were down to less than half operating in the extreme cold.

From what I heard from the TX governor, the grid operator 
ERCOT (http://www.ercot.com/) assured the governor three days before the cold weather arrived they were prepared for the weather event. Now ERCOT does not operate any power sources, they only manage the grid and are a clearinghouse for payments between the plant and transmission operators. So the governor has said either we were lied to or ERCOT was lied to. I suspect the problem was mostly unforeseen as to a cascading set of circumstances.

First of all in Texas, wind and solar supply at best on a sunny, windy day in the summer about 23 % of the power on the grid. In the days before the cold weather, the renewables were providing between 13 and 16 % of the power on the grid. I know from my little experience with solar panels they do not produce much electricity in cold conditions and even less when it's snowing and icing. So when the cold weather and snow hit, the renewables started to fail and at the same time electric demands skyrocketed causing calls from ERCOT to go out for more power from natural gas plants. At the same time there was increasing demand on the natural gas pipelines from all directions and the pressure in the natural gas pipelines started to drop. When there is a pressure drop across valves in the natural gas lines the valves will tend to freeze up. So the natural gas power plants which operate with no reserve supply or storage could not pick more load. It was at this point that the frequency on the grid started dropping below 60 cycles forcing the transmission line operators to start shedding loads via rolling blackouts. At that time the remaining power sources got real nervous for fear their systems would be brought down and may have cut back more. Through all of this they did manage to prevent a complete blackout which would have been a far worse disaster.

So what do we learn from this? It's that renewables (green energy sources) require backups. Even natural gas on demand is not reliable in a crisis. Only nuclear and coal that run with at least a 3 month energy reserve are good base power sources.

To me, the best answer to this problem is now and always has been nuclear. The green energy sources will will always be intermittent and require expensive backups. We absolutely need base load energy that is safe and reliable. If we are going to rely on intermittent green energy, just who is going to pay for the back ups on standby? Would you invest in a good reliable power source that only was used in emergencies?  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: beav on February 22, 2021, 05:26:57 PM
Gary- solar panels produce more power when cold.
Not so much when clouded over or covered w/snow
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 22, 2021, 05:41:59 PM
Yes they lose efficiency with rising temps. Do not know enough about large grids to comment on the rest except that a shifty looking fellow in VT once tried to get me to sign a petition against an nuclear plant. Not sure if new or existing but he knew less than me which was not much so told him to hit the bricks 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 22, 2021, 07:27:18 PM
Nuclear never overcame Three Mile Island; but the Navy appears to have trudged on just fine. I agree we had the answer 60 years back. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: beav on February 22, 2021, 07:45:43 PM
I think its more market forces that are keeping nuclear in check
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 22, 2021, 08:42:18 PM
Nucor is no joke.  They are bigtime bigtime.  Where they put a plant, a town pops up.  Middle of a cornfield, poof.  Town. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 22, 2021, 09:28:44 PM
Nucor is no joke.  They are bigtime bigtime.  Where they put a plant, a town pops up.  Middle of a cornfield, poof.  Town.
Right, I kind of figured people would know who NUCOR is but for those that don't know:  largest steel company in the USA with 22+ billion in revenue.  If NUCOR is testing out wind powered steel mills than the largest steel maker in the USA is saying they think it makes  cents or $.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 22, 2021, 09:40:37 PM
In other steel news Nucor has announced they are building plant in TX to be fueled by a solar farm there.  Solar in TX is just exploding in growth, going to be interesting in TX in the next few years.

Also that mill in CO was threatening to close or move unless the state could assure a less expensive source of energy.  The solar farm being built is dramatically cutting the power cost.  So, it is the low cost of the power agreement that paved the way.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 22, 2021, 09:45:39 PM
how can a brand new solar farm be cheap?  must be taxpayer subsidized.  I do not know.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 22, 2021, 10:03:02 PM
Always is Doc, always is.  Might be creative at times, but follow the money. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: brianJ on February 23, 2021, 02:52:32 AM
Nucor is no joke.  They are bigtime bigtime.  Where they put a plant, a town pops up.  Middle of a cornfield, poof.  Town.
Right, I kind of figured people would know who NUCOR is but for those that don't know:  largest steel company in the USA with 22+ billion in revenue.  If NUCOR is testing out wind powered steel mills than the largest steel maker in the USA is saying they think it makes  cents or $.  
Seems obvious to me that a well-moneyed corporation has the greenbacks for a potent PR campaign that signals to the public what they want to hear.     

The urban/suburban population likes to hear greenwashing.   So that is what gets sold. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 23, 2021, 03:55:47 AM
Saulte Saint Marie, Ontario is a steel mill town. They have been adding wind and solar to the grid that is mainly hydro right now. Probably started 12 years ago. I don't know what the real numbers by source on power generation is though. I do know that from all sources they generate 830 megawatts. I know on the Michigan side (same town name) they use the Marys river for hydro, that is an old plant to, over 100 years. There is 1 plant on the Ontario side at Clergue (52 MW) on the Marys river.

Nuclear here in New Brunswick, in fact all sources of power generation here is government backed. We have a crown corporation running the show. It's always been that way, except small villages and towns back 100 years or so. A handful of those are still around. Such as Tinker on the Aroostook river that powers the villages of Perth Andover and Aroostook, New Brunswick. which is also shared with Maine Public Service. The village of Aroostook was a rail road hub, had a big turntable yard up there. Mom's uncle worked on the rail road for over 40 years, got a steady cheque right through the depression years. Died rich and never spent none of it. :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 23, 2021, 04:38:22 AM
Gary- solar panels produce more power when cold.

Yes, that's the theory and what the people trying to sell you solar panels will tell you but from my experience the reality is that those that buy that story are going to be disappointed in the cold (winter).
First problem is unless you have a very expensive sun tracking mount, the sun angle is not going to be as favorable on the cold days. Second thing is the hours of sunlight are less on the winter days and the hours of the sun being lower on the horizon take up a higher per cent of the hours of sunlight. Also unless you are diligent in cleaning the snow, ice and dust off the surface, your output will be lessened. And finally there are usually more cloudy days in the winter.
I have had two solar panels on the roof of my camper where I have for many years lived both summer and winter. Yes they are a fixed mount (flat) and yes, it's very difficult and dangerous to climb up on that slippery aluminum roof to clean the snow and ice off the panels, but I have found that even though I have been diligent in cleaning them of the snow and ice, it's not really worth it in the cold time of the year. There are very few days in the cold the panels generate enough volts to put any charge into a 12 volt battery bank. 

how can a brand new solar farm be cheap?  must be taxpayer subsidized.  I do not know.
As far as the solar subsidies, yes first there is a 26 percent investment credit if you buy a solar system. Then some states and utilities offer additional credits like sales tax exemption (7% in MN), net metering, and some utilities offer per kwh credits for production.   
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 23, 2021, 07:01:59 AM
Nucor is no joke.  They are bigtime bigtime.  Where they put a plant, a town pops up.  Middle of a cornfield, poof.  Town.
Right, I kind of figured people would know who NUCOR is but for those that don't know:  largest steel company in the USA with 22+ billion in revenue.  If NUCOR is testing out wind powered steel mills than the largest steel maker in the USA is saying they think it makes  cents or $.  
Seems obvious to me that a well-moneyed corporation has the greenbacks for a potent PR campaign that signals to the public what they want to hear.    

The urban/suburban population likes to hear greenwashing.   So that is what gets sold.
Well I had not heard of it til I went searching.  And I am listening for it.  Nucor is well heeled but they got that way by being in front of the market.  The big integrated mills ignored them and then bad mouthed them and now are nearly all bankrupt and Nucor is largest steel maker we have in the USA.  Nucor having built 2 renewable powered just seems to say that they are experimenting but getting ready to hop.  Emissions are a big issue for them and they really just want cheap power.  They only own 21 mills so 2 new ones is 10%.  That's a big deal and you can bet it is going to be reported to the CEO on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 23, 2021, 07:28:52 AM
Gary- solar panels produce more power when cold.

Yes, that's the theory and what the people trying to sell you solar panels will tell you but from my experience the reality is that those that buy that story are going to be disappointed in the cold (winter).
First problem is unless you have a very expensive sun tracking mount, the sun angle is not going to be as favorable on the cold days. Second thing is the hours of sunlight are less on the winter days and the hours of the sun being lower on the horizon take up a higher per cent of the hours of sunlight. Also unless you are diligent in cleaning the snow, ice and dust off the surface, your output will be lessened. And finally there are usually more cloudy days in the winter.

All this just means "solar panels don't work as well when they get less light" not "solar panels don't work as well in the cold". None of what you said has anything to do with temperature, except that yes it is generally cold when there is snow on your solar panels.
Quote
I have had two solar panels on the roof of my camper where I have for many years lived both summer and winter. Yes they are a fixed mount (flat) and yes, it's very difficult and dangerous to climb up on that slippery aluminum roof to clean the snow and ice off the panels, but I have found that even though I have been diligent in cleaning them of the snow and ice, it's not really worth it in the cold time of the year. There are very few days in the cold the panels generate enough volts to put any charge into a 12 volt battery bank.
This is just... I don't...It is not worth it because you have them flat mounted, not because they don't work. Please stop misleading people whether unintentionally or otherwise regarding PV panels. In the winter the sun is much lower on the horizon and hardly any of it will hit panels that are flat mounted on an RV roof. This is a problem with your installation not with PV panels. I said it before, if you buy crappy stuff or do a bad install job you will probably not be happy with solar panels, but I bet the same is true with nuclear plants too! :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on February 23, 2021, 08:26:07 AM
I was simply thinking, isn't it cold in space? Been using them up there for decades.
I do prefer it when clients use ground mounts, I'm not a big fan of having equipment and penetrations on the roof but understand that it can be convenient. On one house I check on they melt out before the roof, slope and color. On the ground they can be oriented and maintained easier, I could easily sweep them, and if the unthinkable happens firefighters aren't working around another obstacle.

I'm not anti nuke but I think we are still storing waste on site, that is a future public cost to consider.

Thanks for your posts mudfarmer.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 23, 2021, 12:15:50 PM

All this just means "solar panels don't work as well when they get less light" not "solar panels don't work as well in the cold". None of what you said has anything to do with temperature, except that yes it is generally cold when there is snow on your solar panels.
Cold and winter are seasonal expressions, not solely temperature indicators. Are you claiming that solar panels will produce as much power in the winter SEASON when it's cold as they produce in the summer?



This is just... I don't...It is not worth it because you have them flat mounted, not because they don't work. Please stop misleading people whether unintentionally or otherwise regarding PV panels.
I don't consider that relating my personal experience to be "misleading people" in any way. I did NOT conceal the fact the panels are flat mounted and in fact did emphasize that mounting and tracking are critical factors with solar panels. 

Regardless of these word issues if you are claiming that solar panels will produce as much in the winter or cold seasons as they do in the summer or warm seasons, you must be a solar panel salesman that does not like negative information about your product or service and your customers can expect to be disappointed.

There are two critical problems with solar power as I see it. First is the problem of maintaining efficiency or output. In order to work efficiently, the panels must be kept in ideal orientation to the sun and they must be maintained constantly. Fixed and roof mounted panels are not conducive to that. Even the tracking mounts require cleaning and upkeep.

Second is that solar systems are not a complete power system. They work less than half the day and do not work well on cloudy, rainy or winter days. In short solar power needs a second power source to be a good all day every day energy source.

So bottom line is who is going to have to pay for the backup power plant for the times when solar is not working? Plus net metering leaves the power grids holding the bag for transmission system costs and distributes partial control of the power grid to many individual sources.

Free energy from the sun is not always free.  

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on February 23, 2021, 01:21:41 PM
certainly batteries do not work as well in the cold.  not sure about the charge rate but less d/c rate.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 23, 2021, 01:46:20 PM
I have a customer who stopped in yesterday for her milk.  Lives off grid, so I asked her about her system.  48 watt solar, battery storage, and a diesel generator because the sun does not shine enough here in Virginia for her power.  She said they have to "be smart" about how they use power and specifically said they run the vacuum when the generator is going.  Come to thing of it I have actually worked on her generator once before when she had an issue - seems to be a trend.  Anyway, she also explained to me about the battery maintenance she has to do on a regular basis and how she had a post melt down because a connection had come loose one time, so these systems are not just plug-n-play, set it and forget it.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 23, 2021, 02:21:54 PM
Gary--

I did not mean to be harsh, sorry if it came across that way but at least myself and one other person read your post about "cold" as in temperature and just want to make sure we are all keeping the facts clear about how this stuff works, I think it is important to the discussion to do so and hopefully you do as well.


Am not a salesman and no vested interest in the PV industry except that it is cheaper for me to buy panels to use every single year and hope for my own personal sake that it keeps going that way because I like them. Have not gotten any subsidies or tax breaks for any of my stuff, it is my decision to invest in it and the burden (or not) of that decision falls on my shoulders.


I am not and do not believe that I did say that panels produce more in the winter than in the summer. Apparently I was referring to temperatures and you were referring to seasons of the year.

The rest about not producing 24/7/365 -- this is why so many people and businesses around the world are putting their noses to the grindstone on all the new and sometimes old battery tech. Storage is the key because at this point it is easy and cheap to end up producing more power than is needed with PV but everybody wants to watch TV at night not during the day and who can blame them? In my case my batteries are charged before noon, even in January if the sun is out and I have done my part of 15 minutes work after each snow storm (like shoveling the sidewalk by the house). So again, storage is my problem even though I have a fair bit compared to 10 years ago when we started down this path.

doc --

For sure! Ours are inside, and they take up space. What they don't do anymore is produce hazardous gasses while they are charging after the switch away from lead acid batteries. This ties in to what Southside is saying as well, with battery maintenance. It is a lot of screwing around to keep the old style flooded lead acid batteries in good shape when they are being heavily charged and discharged frequently. Sulfation issues, fluid top ups, specific gravity, record keeping, equalization charging, what a mess.


These new batteries, well, you just don't do any of that stuff, it's...crazy! It is a serious game changer. I still out of an abundance of caution do not care about "setting and forgetting" anything. It is good practice to periodically check for loose connections, insulation issues and other problems with any electrical system. Many DIYers would have a lot less trouble if they conformed to relevant electrical code, or consulted qualified persons before attempting things on their own.


After all this rambling, it still boils down to something nativewolf mentioned already. "We are past the tinkering stage." If you have or install a poorly performing system it is either: A: older and missing out on some of the benefits of advancement (MPPT charge controllers, higher output per panel area for instance) B: Poorly designed for the intended use or C: Poorly installed/maintained.

Nothing is free, and ESPECIALLY not good batteries. Well ok maybe that vacuum cleaner we picked up on the side of the road and run off the sun's stored energy :o
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 23, 2021, 05:45:42 PM
how can a brand new solar farm be cheap?  must be taxpayer subsidized.  I do not know.
They are financed and I bet they are counting on tax credits.  However, roi for my home project is pretty simple and positive and the tax credit doesn’t really help me.  I expect there is a reason we have more applications for solar farms than total consumption in VA.  It is going to cause issues if they build them all at once and flood markets, I have yet to see battery backup at the same quantity here in VA.  In CA the battery systems and starting to come online.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: btulloh on February 23, 2021, 05:58:25 PM
I would not want to emulate any element of CA power policy or infrastructure.  Lived there, don’t now. Good to be gone. Expensive nightmare and getting worse all the time. 

It always amazes me that failed policies just get more bandaids slapped on and become even more complex and expensive failures. Nobody ever ended a failed government policy. That’s why we have so many. Count me way way out - just can’t buy into more failure. But I’m still helping to pay for them and there’s no choice in that.  say_what 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 23, 2021, 07:22:53 PM
You'll be glad to know that this year VA is the largest tax welfare state in the USA followed closely by KY WV NM.  Californians are about neutral this year but it goes up and down.  Sometimes CA is the largest tax donor out there, when employees are making oddles of stock sales and their cap gains go crazy.  Anyhow, as Virginians we are not paying, we're on welfare.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 23, 2021, 07:43:41 PM
I would not want to emulate any element of CA power policy or infrastructure.  Lived there, don’t now. Good to be gone. Expensive nightmare and getting worse all the time.

It always amazes me that failed policies just get more bandaids slapped on and become even more complex and expensive failures. Nobody ever ended a failed government policy. That’s why we have so many. Count me way way out - just can’t buy into more failure. But I’m still helping to pay for them and there’s no choice in that.  say_what
Agree that CA is a basket case of utility policies.  To top it off they don't maintain the grid.  Madness.  However, it is creating some innovative power/grid management solutions that do bear fruit elsewhere.  Our state seems to have gone crazy with solar farms ourselves.
@Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) has been harping on it but until last week I'd not really researched the extent.  Well, he's right.  
Holy cow!  There are plans for almost 17GW of renewables already on the books, that is some level of approval.  All because of...well I'm not sure  ...I mean I can read why but I don't get it.  Some political forces allowing independents to sell power directly and some corporate pressure by folks like Walmart and Amazon to offer renewables.  Not really sure, seems like it is overbuilt already and yet I am sure we'll see more proposed this year.  I've tried doing the numbers and I don't see how most are going to make a profit so it could get interesting on the wholesale rates.  Most are being built by Dominion but an awful lot are private.  Of course, from VA  you can export up to MA or NY, the interconnect can move some volts.  I don't know...I expect we'll see some big news in battery soon.  
So...well hold onto your hat.  Could get a bit whacky in our power situation here in VA.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 23, 2021, 07:51:34 PM
You'll be glad to know that this year VA is the largest tax welfare state in the USA followed closely by KY WV NM.  Californians are about neutral this year but it goes up and down.  Sometimes CA is the largest tax donor out there, when employees are making oddles of stock sales and their cap gains go crazy.  Anyhow, as Virginians we are not paying, we're on welfare.  
State of residence doesn't much influence an individuals federal tax burden but has very much influence on ones state and local taxes.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 23, 2021, 08:24:31 PM
You can count me out of that category. State, Federal, Realestate, Excise, Unemployment (Federal and State), Wholesale Fuel, Sales, Forest Use, Egg Packing, Milk Processing are just SOME of the taxes I pay. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: btulloh on February 23, 2021, 10:47:47 PM
Roger all the above. Too many to quote or acknowledge individually. 

VA is trying to be the CA of the east. Disturbing. It all looks like a movie I’ve seen before, and I didn’t like the ending. Hard to believe the changes that have occurred in the fifteen years I’ve been back here. 

I don’t mean to keep running down CA - it’s got a lot of good things to offer, but it changed dramatically over the time I lived there. Running a business became an expensive nightmare. Single party government, which is the way it is now, is never going to produce good results. 

As far as VA being the recipient of something tax wise, I’m not sure I know what that means. Can I tear up all these tax bills I get or stop paying all the fed, state, local taxes and fees?  Is there someone I can forward my tax bills to in another state?

Yeah, solar is going nuts here right now. It’s a result of state mandates and the new commitment to refusable energy.  Dominion Powe is all in, being a quasi-government, public utility that’s hostage to the state govt’s wishes and whims. So they’re all in. No choice really. Bids are out to every solar company on the continent. I’ve been getting bombarded with proposals to lease various tracts i own. Some suburban, some rural. Turns out most of mystuff is near large power lines. These are serious offers from real companies and I’m sure I’ve gotten fifty or more in the last year. Better lease rates than growing beans but I can’t say as I’m interested. Bigger fish to fry and i dont want to wait forty years for it to add up. 

So I don’t know, but all this blue sky stuff is just a way to make a few people better and the rest of us get to pay for it.

Sorry about the rant and I apologize in advance if someone felt like I was taking a sho at them. I’m just fed up with the whole situation. YMMV. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on February 24, 2021, 01:24:04 AM
Ive never seen more solar farms anywhere than mass.  Theyre all over.  The power might be cheaper for someone but somehow theres about 15 line items on the bill beyond the kw/hr rate.  It was pretty expensive, like everything there.

Im content to give TVA my money instead
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 24, 2021, 05:09:04 AM
I did not mean to be harsh, sorry if it came across that way but at least myself and one other person read your post about "cold" as in temperature and just want to make sure we are all keeping the facts clear about how this stuff works, I think it is important to the discussion to do so and hopefully you do as well.

Agreed. I basically lived totally off grid for some years and the solar system in the camper I bought used was of no real value to me. Yes, it was a far less than idea installation but it was difficult to change because I could never predict the direction the camper was going to be parked on different jobs. But even under the best of times in the winter I could not even count on the solar panels keeping the batteries fully charged when I was away from the camper. 
Here is what happens when wind meets solar. Back in 2010 on the fourth of July when I was away from the camper a tree went down on the camper in a wind storm that devastated much of the local forest. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/DSCN2702.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1614158137)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/DSCN2704.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1614158225)
 
I was lucky as I only got a branch poked thru a solar panel and the roof of the camper. In a nearby campground a camper parked next to a tree got split in two when the tree went down. 

I have no problem with non grid tied (isolated or single purpose) solar systems as then the owner is responsible for his own backup power whether it be generator, batteries or intermittent use. But a subsidized solar installation that is grid tied transfers the responsibility (and costs) of backups to the others on the grid and invites disasters like in the Texas rolling blackouts. 

If this country continues down this path of reliance on intermittent green energy you can expect to see many more failures of the grid.   
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Jeff on February 24, 2021, 07:10:47 AM
There are a couple of you that seem to be intent on getting this tossed in as a restricted. If it happens, and the people that are enjoying this discussion that detest having anything moved because of your inability to leave out politics of any discussion want to beat the snot out of you, don't cry to me.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on February 24, 2021, 07:33:31 AM
Thinking about the every man for himself scenario. Say 25% of rural goes off grid. These are the white collar folks we are building home offices for, keeping lumber high at the moment. They moved out of offices in the city and probably aren't going back. If the grid is not subsidized it becomes unprofitable to keep the lines up. We sort of have that with cell now, they detest keeping the last 3 miles up to me. So we go back to individual city grids and rural goes dark. I can run the house on solar, not sure about the sawmill, planer, welder, that is a big jump sizewise.

The office workers don't return to the subways, restaurants, high rent offices. Public transport crashes, offices become tenements for unemployed workers that serviced white collar. Interesting times on the horizon.
I'm not sure I see the everyone for themselves solution as working either.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 24, 2021, 08:59:23 AM
I think is's like any other urban/rural shift we have seen, just faster and more folks this time, but it will swing back.  The pain will come when the inflated prices don't remain as folks decide to move on.  Saw that in Oregon when we were there.  Folks from CA had U-Haul trucks of $$ from selling at the height of the market pre '07, discovered rural eastern Oregon and suddenly their 5 AC farmette could be flipped through a 1033 exchange into 500 acres of dry ranch land without a massive tax hit.  Ranch prices went to the moon and beyond - $4K an acre for dry land that takes 20 acres per cow / calf pair, then reality hit and nobody could offload it without taking a bath.  

There was one place we really liked, had decent water and was surrounded by canals so there was additional free seepage, 600 GMP warm well that even flowed over the head, nice setting.  Had been purchased by one of the above described who soon found out that ranch life isn't like TV and had already moved back to urban CA.  Offered $1K an acre which was on the high side of what it was really worth but figured we could turn it into something.  The seller was so "offended" he would not even sign the refusal / counter offer paperwork.  A year later the asking price was $1K an acre.  

There will be a correction, just don't be standing in the path of the pendulum when it swings back.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Stephen1 on February 24, 2021, 09:35:02 PM
On the heat pump thing, I helped install a ground loop geothermal setup up here in the frozen north where single digits can be a warm day. The guy is toasty warm but his electric bill went through the roof (oil bill went to $0 though). So then he built a nice big barn and covered the roof with PV panels. Now he makes more electricity than he uses in a year (net metered grid tied). No heat bill and no power bill. Lots of jealous folks on his road :D


NY Power Authority has 3x huge hydro dams and there is a private company with 27 hydro stations on a smaller river plus many other small dams some owned by municipalities etc. We are doing pretty well on power generation up here. There look to be a lot of solar farm installs on the horizon (several already complete) and we have some big wind farms as well.
That net metering turns into a big roof of useless glass when trees fall on lines and the grid goes down.  
From wht I understsnd with net metering. The power comes off the roof/panel, into the house, what isn't used goes out the line. If that is  correct and it's daytime , you are going to have power. If not you're generac will take over.  :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 25, 2021, 12:11:19 AM
I don't believe in a net metering situation the panels and the house are directly connected.  Rather the generated juice heads out and you get a credit for that, at the same time you buy your juice the normal way.  The difference is what you send out to the grid vs what you took from it being the "net", thus the bill offset.  So if the grid is down, you get nothing from the panels  - fire up the genny!!  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 25, 2021, 12:47:31 AM
Technically they are "connected". If you are generating as much power as you are using, then the meter basically isn't turning. 

If you need more, then you buy more from the grid. 

If you are making more than you are using, then you get a credit, but it's at the "wholesale" rate, not the "retail" rate. The difference between those rates pay for the grid / transmission lines / meters etc, plus some profit for the the power company. 

But a "grid tied" system is just that. If the grid goes down, so do you.  It should be technically possible to grid tie AND have a non grid backup, but that will need some more clever electronics and a heap of batteries. So more $$. A pure grid tied system has no local battery storage. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 25, 2021, 03:25:27 AM
Here is one site explaining net metering.  What is net metering (https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/what-is-net-metering-and-how-does-it-work)

Net metering is not the same in all states. Check the article for what is offered in each state.

Net metering is technically mandated in 38 states, and Washington D.C. 29 states require full retail net metering, six offer avoided cost rate net metering, and 11 states have some sort of alternative net metering program. 

Net metering has come to be a catch-all phrase that is used to describe any method that utilities use to purchase solar power from homeowners. True net metering is what we have described through this article - where you receive the full retail rate of electricity for each kWh of power you send to the grid. 

Some states only require utilities to compensate customers at the avoided-cost rate of electricity for excess solar energy, which is substantially lower than the retail rate of electricity. Despite this, it’s still classified as net metering. 

Other states have alternative net metering programs, such as gross metering, which requires you to purchase all of your electricity from your utility and sell all of your solar production for a lower rate. 

More and more states are starting to switch to alternative net metering programs, as they claim net metering causes utilities to raise electric prices for non-solar customers.


It's important to note that fixed charges on your electric bill cannot be payed with excess electric credits.

Here is the problem that I see as a threat to the grid.

Net metering ensures you get the most out of your solar panels. When your utility offers net metering, it allows you to use the grid as a ‘virtual’ battery to store the economic value of your excess solar power.

Without net metering, you would have to install a solar battery to store and use your excess generation, which will cost you a couple thousand dollars.

So as the grid gets more dependent on both wind and solar power, just who is going to pay for these expensive "virtual" battery's? And just who is going to pay for what everyone that has relied on battery storage knows is expensive maintenance? 

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on February 25, 2021, 04:00:06 AM
Quote
So as the grid gets more dependent on both wind and solar power, just who is going to pay for these expensive "virtual" battery's? And just who is going to pay for what everyone that has relied on battery storage knows is expensive maintenance? 
Agreed. You can't expect to be paid the same for power you supply into the grid vs the power you draw down. Someone has to pay for the grid, and the backup generation reserves that are needed. 

Here in NZ we have a heap of hydro, which can be used as a big battery. If you don't have that, then you need some reliable standby power source. And currently that means natural gas turbines that can spool up on 5 mins notice. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 25, 2021, 06:07:30 AM
I don't believe in a net metering situation the panels and the house are directly connected.  Rather the generated juice heads out and you get a credit for that, at the same time you buy your juice the normal way.  The difference is what you send out to the grid vs what you took from it being the "net", thus the bill offset.
:D :D :D Unless you're Jim Irving. Sell for 8c/kwhr from the Irving owned St George Power and buy for 4c/kwhr from the provincially run power company. I can't pull up the old CBC article, but I never forget when we give out corporate welfare cheques. :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: ljohnsaw on February 25, 2021, 09:59:08 AM
Agreed. You can't expect to be paid the same for power you supply into the grid vs the power you draw down. Someone has to pay for the grid, and the backup generation reserves that are needed.
I disagree, somewhat, with the first part.  When I "over produce" my need during the day, the power company pays me $0.03/kwh and my next door neighbor, with out solar, is charged $0.42 with virtually no transmission "work".  That is a hefty profit!  There are a lot of electrical losses in transmission, hence the charge.  If I am reliving the load on the transmission network during the peak time, I should be compensated for that in some manner.  I would be happy with the standard "split the savings" often used in our grid.  That is (.42-.03)/2 or $.195 being paid to me for my investment and helping out the grid and the electric company making the same for doing NOTHING.  

On the second part, my electric company charges a flat fee (about $3/day) for the privilege to be hooked up to the grid when I have solar.  There were, and still are, lots of solar installers selling a boatload of panels promising the owners that they will make money on the excess power produced.  I put that payback period at around 100 years!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: brianJ on February 25, 2021, 10:57:05 AM
Agreed. You can't expect to be paid the same for power you supply into the grid vs the power you draw down. Someone has to pay for the grid, and the backup generation reserves that are needed.
I disagree, somewhat, with the first part.  When I "over produce" my need during the day, the power company pays me $0.03/kwh and my next door neighbor, with out solar, is charged $0.42 with virtually no transmission "work".  That is a hefty profit!  There are a lot of electrical losses in transmission, hence the charge.  If I am reliving the load on the transmission network during the peak time, I should be compensated for that in some manner.  I would be happy with the standard "split the savings" often used in our grid.  That is (.42-.03)/2 or $.195 being paid to me for my investment and helping out the grid and the electric company making the same for doing NOTHING.  

On the second part, my electric company charges a flat fee (about $3/day) for the privilege to be hooked up to the grid when I have solar.  There were, and still are, lots of solar installers selling a boatload of panels promising the owners that they will make money on the excess power produced.  I put that payback period at around 100 years!
I dont see that as a hefty profit.    Just proof that the grid has hefty costs.   
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on February 25, 2021, 12:57:00 PM

I disagree, somewhat, with the first part.  When I "over produce" my need during the day, the power company pays me $0.03/kwh and my next door neighbor, with out solar, is charged $0.42 with virtually no transmission "work".  That is a hefty profit!  There are a lot of electrical losses in transmission, hence the charge.  
It's simply not possible to allocate electricity cost based on distance so just because your neighbor also uses electricity has no bearing on overall transmission costs. Plus the cost of transmission is also based on fixed equipment costs like transformers which are used to minimize line (distance) losses. In other words, that transformer that you feed and draw your power from your local distribution system as well as a similar transformer for your neighbor is not free of losses and cost. 
As far as the discrepancy in rates, I don't know what to tell you. I looked at the California rules for net metering and see that you are forced to use TOU (time of use) metering but even that should not cause a big discrepancy in rates for the use in or out at one time of day. 
California Net Energy Metering (https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/General.aspx?id=3800)
Are you not in one of the three major utilities territories covered by the rules?
Also I see that some new solar installations are aligning their panels to generate max power at the high use time of day to gain max return. Are you considering that modification to get max return and credits?
I see from one table from 2019 that MN was close to the US average price for electricity at 10.33 cents per KWH while CA was 16.89 cents per KWH. I have heard some bad things about the electric grid in CA and sure hope the rest of the states don't follow CA's lead.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on February 25, 2021, 01:06:05 PM
When I "over produce" my need during the day, the power company pays me $0.03/kwh and my next door neighbor, with out solar, is charged $0.42 with virtually no transmission "work".  That is a hefty profit!


Considering the claims they are paying out I don't think they will see any profit for a while. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: ljohnsaw on February 25, 2021, 03:20:12 PM

I disagree, somewhat, with the first part.  When I "over produce" my need during the day, the power company pays me $0.03/kwh and my next door neighbor, with out solar, is charged $0.42 with virtually no transmission "work".  That is a hefty profit!  There are a lot of electrical losses in transmission, hence the charge.  
It's simply not possible to allocate electricity cost based on distance so just because your neighbor also uses electricity has no bearing on overall transmission costs. Plus the cost of transmission is also based on fixed equipment costs like transformers which are used to minimize line (distance) losses. In other words, that transformer that you feed and draw your power from your local distribution system as well as a similar transformer for your neighbor is not free of losses and cost.
As far as the discrepancy in rates, I don't know what to tell you. I looked at the California rules for net metering and see that you are forced to use TOU (time of use) metering but even that should not cause a big discrepancy in rates for the use in or out at one time of day.
California Net Energy Metering (https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/General.aspx?id=3800)
Are you not in one of the three major utilities territories covered by the rules?
Also I see that some new solar installations are aligning their panels to generate max power at the high use time of day to gain max return. Are you considering that modification to get max return and credits?
I see from one table from 2019 that MN was close to the US average price for electricity at 10.33 cents per KWH while CA was 16.89 cents per KWH. I have heard some bad things about the electric grid in CA and sure hope the rest of the states don't follow CA's lead.
The $0.03 rate is the avoided cost of the actual coal power out of Montana.  IF they had to buy that power, they would have had to have it transferred into California.  They would either buy it at the boarder (California grid) at some higher price to get it there OR they would have to buy more power to offset the losses to get it to the boarder.  THAT is how it works.  I was involved in purchase power settlements.  So, by me producing power to offset my neighbor's need, they are saving a lot more than the 3 cents.  But, the CPUC is in their pocket...
As far as TOU - I read a while back that PG&E (where I'm located) was going to force everyone into TOU rates.  I got an email a month or two back pretty much stating that.  But reading further, I could opt to keep my current tiered rate structure.  IF I didn't pick, they would put me on TOU and that would raise my costs significantly.
CA at 16.9 cents?  In what century? :D First tier is 22 or 24 cents.  Tier 2 is in the 30 cent range.  Tiers 3 to 5 (they condensed them down to one price) is 40-something.  They don't call them Pacific Graft & Corruption for no reason ;)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: btulloh on February 25, 2021, 03:51:18 PM
John, does CAlISO set the purchase rates and do the purhasing of wholesale power from outside sources?  The had some er, uhhhhh, unusual policies when i was living out there. 

Those are some stunning kwh rates you listed. Whoa. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on February 25, 2021, 04:42:13 PM
I just did some quick ciphering on my last elec bill. Including all the various line items and taxes the amount I write the check for divided by Kwh comes out to $.11 

Inter-County Energy Co-Op in Central KY.

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 25, 2021, 05:14:13 PM
Simple and direct. Canadian dollars. ;D Statement also shows meter readings elsewhere. That's a 33 day cycle on that bill.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/power-rate.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: ljohnsaw on February 25, 2021, 08:18:25 PM
John, does CAlISO set the purchase rates and do the purhasing of wholesale power from outside sources?  The had some er, uhhhhh, unusual policies when i was living out there.

Those are some stunning kwh rates you listed. Whoa.
CAISO is just a market.  Generators bid in.  MWs are doled out to meet demand.  I forget how you specify your load price (if we did...).  Our cities had resources that covered most of the load and imports were purchased for the rest by the day-ahead guys.  In the hour-ahead market, variances in the load forecast and the actual load would mean we could spot sell or buy in that market but that was a little more volatile.  We typically held back a little of our generation and could ramp it up in the hour-ahead market to cover our variances or ramp it down if the market price was not high enough and we were in excess.

What this market has that Texas doesn't is a capacity market.  We had resources (gas generator) that were cheap to build but relatively expensive to run.  We would bid those in the market and were held idle for emergencies (and we were paid for that investment).  They would often get called to generate during summer peak situation.  So we would get a standby payment and then actual running payment if called to run.  Makes for a reliable system.  Prior to this, we ran under the control area's rules (PG&E).  We HAD to have excess peaking MW available or pay PG&E for that service.  It was way cheaper to build our own.

When the market new, there was a little company called Enron that figured out how to play the system and that led to the 2000 energy crisis where electric rates hit $1,000/mw.  There have been many iterations of the CAISO system to fix such shortsightedness/naivety of those in charge.
Back to our regularly scheduled program...
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on February 25, 2021, 09:29:13 PM
Hey stavebuyer, I looked it up, that is pretty cool! We need more like it all over the place.

Quote
Powered by Touchstone Energy Cooperatives - Touchstone Energy® Cooperatives is a national network of electric cooperatives across 46 states that provides resources and leverages partnerships to help member cooperatives and their employees better engage and serve their members. By working together, Touchstone Energy cooperatives stand as a source of power and information to their 32 million member-owners every day.

Doing cool things with landfill methane!
Quote
Landfill Gas Plants: From Junk to Juice
In the fall of 2003, EKPC opened three power plants that produce electric power from landfill gas. Each $4 million landfill gas-to-electric plant converts methane that is produced from decaying trash into electricity. The projects have been applauded for being both environmentally responsible and cost efficient. 

Quote
East Kentucky Power Cooperative (http://www.ekpc.coop/economic-development-bringing-jobs-kentucky) is a generation and transmission cooperative based in Winchester, Kentucky.  Inter-County Energy gets its power from EKPC and we distribute it to our members.  They work with 15 more rural electric cooperatives across the state regarding economic development and job retention.

They do say they produce more renewable power than any other utility in Kentucky... Only 8% of their portfolio though ;D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: ljohnsaw on February 26, 2021, 12:11:20 AM
Doing cool things with landfill methane!
 
Soooo, interesting story about this.  One of the entities that we scheduled for was a landfill generator.  They used Caterpillar engines to run generators.  They had a few of them.  One was always being rebuilt, one ready to run when any one of the others went offline.  Turns out the methane had to be "scrubbed" to clean it.  That was done with refrigeration-that used up some of the energy produced.  Cooling the gas caused the contaminates to condense out.  One thing that was hard to get rid of was sillates (sp).  They would turn to glass inside the cylinders from the heat, coating the heads, reducing the combustion chamber until they didn't run right - hence the rebuilding.  The sillates came from women's makeup that was buried in the landfills.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Roxie on February 26, 2021, 04:59:36 AM
Well, that IS interesting.  :o
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: SwampDonkey on February 26, 2021, 06:22:46 AM
Non-Profit Eco360 in SE New Brunswick has been using garbage for methane to generate power since 2017.

Landfill hits milestone capturing methane from garbage to produce power | CBC News (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/eco360-methane-burning-generator-1.5054217)

There was a scheme in the northern end of the province that fell apart and I see no link to that news. ;D

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on February 26, 2021, 10:06:23 AM
John, does CAlISO set the purchase rates and do the purhasing of wholesale power from outside sources?  The had some er, uhhhhh, unusual policies when i was living out there.

Those are some stunning kwh rates you listed. Whoa.
CAISO is just a market.  Generators bid in.  MWs are doled out to meet demand.  I forget how you specify your load price (if we did...).  Our cities had resources that covered most of the load and imports were purchased for the rest by the day-ahead guys.  In the hour-ahead market, variances in the load forecast and the actual load would mean we could spot sell or buy in that market but that was a little more volatile.  We typically held back a little of our generation and could ramp it up in the hour-ahead market to cover our variances or ramp it down if the market price was not high enough and we were in excess.

What this market has that Texas doesn't is a capacity market.  We had resources (gas generator) that were cheap to build but relatively expensive to run.  We would bid those in the market and were held idle for emergencies (and we were paid for that investment).  They would often get called to generate during summer peak situation.  So we would get a standby payment and then actual running payment if called to run.  Makes for a reliable system.  Prior to this, we ran under the control area's rules (PG&E).  We HAD to have excess peaking MW available or pay PG&E for that service.  It was way cheaper to build our own.

When the market new, there was a little company called Enron that figured out how to play the system and that led to the 2000 energy crisis where electric rates hit $1,000/mw.  There have been many iterations of the CAISO system to fix such shortsightedness/naivety of those in charge.
Back to our regularly scheduled program...
Very interesting.  So why are CA rates so high?  All to pay for grid and legal fees?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: ljohnsaw on February 26, 2021, 11:15:13 AM
PG&E (Pacific Gas & Electric), SCE (Southern California Edison), SDGE (San Diego Gas & Electric) and I think LADWP (Los Angles Department of Water & Power) submit their spreadsheet to the CPUC showing how they need to raise rates 2 or 3 times a year (to pay the stockholders).  Just keep inching them up.  The CPUC has public meeting and the rates are approved.  All the while PG&E diverts the money for line clearances away from that work and we have some fires caused by them.  But, I digress...
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on March 04, 2021, 07:13:19 AM
apparently GM considering TN for the next battery plant (actually LG Chem-Korean company will run and build it).  I don't see where the batteries are coming from to build all the EVs.  Only Tesla seems to have plans to actually scale.  Maybe I don't get something.  

Anyway, these jobs will be good jobs, highly automated battery lines are still very labor intensive.  Tesla had to reach out past Reno (new gigafactory plant being built in Austin) because they need so many people.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on March 04, 2021, 09:32:34 AM
same with raw materials.  china has been scooping stuff up for years.  lots of copper, aluminum, steel and silver to build automated plants, not to mention the cars with electric motors and heavy wire.  I am not sure what is required for the new batteries.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on March 04, 2021, 08:43:48 PM
same with raw materials.  china has been scooping stuff up for years.  lots of copper, aluminum, steel and silver to build automated plants, not to mention the cars with electric motors and heavy wire.  I am not sure what is required for the new batteries.
Fanciest and newest LI batteries have replaced cobalt (usually from some war torn area of the congo) for Nickl or even iron.  Nickl looks to be the fastest bestest but there is potentially a big shortage and NI players are Indonesia, Australia, Brazil, Russia, and Canada are big players. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Al_Smith on March 04, 2021, 08:51:43 PM
I think most ev batteries are lithium-ion type not the normal lead acid types we are familiar with .Pricey to make and pricey to salvage or recycle . It's been debatable and often said it costs more in other forms of energy to make them than they will ever produce .I think the usable life of these batteries is about 6-7 years .Saying that in my opinion the internal combustion engine is not a dead horse quite yet .
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on March 05, 2021, 10:22:49 AM
Actually the lifecycle on newest lithium battery is a pretty amazing cycle life, enough to drive a car a million miles.  Many Tesla’s are on road with original battery at 10 years+.  Thermal management is key as is chemistry.  Lithium batteries are so good most EVs are warrantied to 8-10 years on the battery.  Many Tesla taxis and rentals have had 300-400k miles to date On original battery.  

Recycling is historically an issue for any battery and lithium is no different.  Scale matters though and lots of companies  are doing recycling.  So far not much waste yet so they can’t really scale up.  Tesla has reused almost all bad battery packs by refurbishment.  It is An expensive component so it makes it worthwhile.  

Re costs, maybe you are conflating solar and battery?  Batteries don’t make energy.  If you mean solar, then the net energy production far far exceeds production.  Old cells from 80s or even early 90s that was not the case.   Power is increasing about 7% and cost falling an equal amount, it makes solar very interesting today.  Be more interesting in 5 years.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on March 19, 2021, 01:23:52 PM
Oops

?Autonomous? Car Crashes Into Stationary Police Cruiser, Feds To Investigate - TruckersReport.com (https://www.thetruckersreport.com/autonomous-car-crashes-stationary-police-cruiser-feds-investigate/)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on March 20, 2021, 09:42:44 PM
Oops

?Autonomous? Car Crashes Into Stationary Police Cruiser, Feds To Investigate - TruckersReport.com (https://www.thetruckersreport.com/autonomous-car-crashes-stationary-police-cruiser-feds-investigate/)
Yeah and the driver did not avoid the police car, I mean it is not like they have self driving enabled.  Basically what they had was the advanced cruise control that can keep you in a lane and what not but it requires hands on the steering wheel so why didn't the person move.  However...however...
Tesla FSD Beta Expanding!! w/ Omar Qazi - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVFHDY5W3Fo)
The real thing is not so far away it looks like.  Couple of nimnuts but they had the brains to buy some tesla stock a few years ago so they are probably well into the millionaire status.  Should have bought tsla instead of an elephant  :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Trackerbuddy on March 26, 2021, 08:34:13 PM
This is what needs to happen before electric machines make it into the woods 

https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/22/h3x-rethinks-the-electric-motor-to-power-the-next-phase-of-mobility/ (https://techcrunch.com/2021/03/22/h3x-rethinks-the-electric-motor-to-power-the-next-phase-of-mobility/)

You can’t slap a motor on a skidder and expect it to save money
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on April 17, 2021, 08:39:00 AM
http://ieefa.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/US-Power-Sector-Outlook_March-2021.pdf

Ieefa projections on the US Power markets.  Not much new here, solar just keeps dropping in cost and picking up marketshare.  The analysts at the IEEFA have been so wrong in the past about solar and wind that I'd take it with a grain of salt (always underestimating solar and wind production for the next year and then assuming it plateaus which it never did, then assuming coal plateaus which it never did).  So, read with a grain of salt. 

They discuss DOE plans for stationary battery storage to be $0.05 and solar to be $0.02 by 2030.  If those numbers are hit than gas is gone by 2030.  That's actually below Nuke operating costs and the pressure would be on to shut Nukes early.  

In our equipment news I had an interesting talk the importer of the electric skid steer, if I get to NY in August I'll test drive it.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on April 17, 2021, 02:55:00 PM
I wouldnt put much stock in long range price forecasting with the atom bombs thatve been going off in the realm of currency.  Find one person from 2018 who predicted forward just 2 years what we all know in hindsight.  


Im not saying to disregard an opinion on X commodity will be cheaper than Y commodity, but the money is in great flux right now.  The USD may not even exist in 5 years. No one knows.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Trackerbuddy on April 18, 2021, 08:16:49 AM
A Consumer Reports article stated that a plug in electric car gets the equivalent of 69 mpg.  They didn’t explain how they came to that number but they do have a reputation for being unbiased 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Trackerbuddy on April 18, 2021, 08:26:57 AM
http://ieefa.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/US-Power-Sector-Outlook_March-2021.pdf

Ieefa projections on the US Power markets.  Not much new here, solar just keeps dropping in cost and picking up marketshare.  The analysts at the IEEFA have been so wrong in the past about solar and wind that I'd take it with a grain of salt (always underestimating solar and wind production for the next year and then assuming it plateaus which it never did, then assuming coal plateaus which it never did).  So, read with a grain of salt.

They discuss DOE plans for stationary battery storage to be $0.05 and solar to be $0.02 by 2030.  If those numbers are hit than gas is gone by 2030.  That's actually below Nuke operating costs and the pressure would be on to shut Nukes early.  

In our equipment news I had an interesting talk the importer of the electric skid steer, if I get to NY in August I'll test drive it.
Nukes aren’t cheap to run and only make money with multiple reactor plants.
I don’t agree with the statement about gas declining.  Gas cogeneration is very efficient.  The natural gas is used to turn a jet turbine. The exhaust heat is used to boil water for a traditional steam turbine.  It’s hard to compete with that kind of setup 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on April 19, 2021, 04:26:23 PM
Bit of buyers remorse there id suppose.

Electric Mustang Plagued by Battery Trouble | Industrial Equipment News (IEN)  (https://www.ien.com/video/video/21378275/electric-mustang-plagued-by-battery-trouble?lt.lid=6075ce71476bca0221cda1f4&lt.ack=iXQ2W7YZ1&lt.usr=67338544&utm_source=IEN%20Weekly_04192021&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=134491&utm_term=712490)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: farmfromkansas on April 21, 2021, 05:23:15 PM
I'll be the last guy to buy a battery powered vehicle or tractor.  Bought a new chainsaw, looked at the battery ones, because the Dr said to avoid jerking. The new chainsaw is the Stihl 180, because it has the spring wind start.  Doesn't jerk.  A new battery saw was about the same, but a second battery was about more than half the price of the saw, and could only saw till the 2 batteries play out. So guess I will stick with gas.  Bought my wife a used Toyota Corolla about 4 or 5 years ago, it has 78,000 miles on it now.  Thing makes about 40 mpg highway, only costs have been tires, oil changes, and front brake pads, and a transmission flush. Cost 11,800.  Expect it to last longer than she is willing to drive it.  All the other gals in the neighborhood are getting SUV's.  A similar size one and condition is about 20,000. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on April 21, 2021, 05:32:01 PM
I'll be the last guy to buy a battery powered vehicle or tractor


Sorry - there is no way you are going to beat me on being last when it comes to this.... :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: farmfromkansas on April 21, 2021, 05:43:34 PM
If you stay healthy you may beat me, beings you are about the same age as my kid.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on April 21, 2021, 07:01:55 PM
Challenge accepted. The race to be last is on!   :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on April 21, 2021, 08:52:22 PM
You'll never hear me coming  :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Trackerbuddy on April 21, 2021, 09:55:42 PM
Luddites to the rescue 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on April 26, 2021, 07:53:23 AM
In our equipment news I had an interesting talk the importer of the electric skid steer, if I get to NY in August I'll test drive it.
The chances of anyone coming to NY and being within a couple hours of me are very slim, but give a shout if you make it, you never know!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Trackerbuddy on April 28, 2021, 09:33:31 PM
Just picked up an electric riding mower. 
If I can figure out how to post pictures I will. 
I gotta say it’s different that’s for sure 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on May 06, 2021, 05:33:52 AM
For all EV cheerleaders here are few items to ponder.

ANALYSIS-Copper price boost? Peru's socialist swerve worries miners (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-US/news/world/analysis-copper-price-boost-peru-s-socialist-swerve-worries-miners/ar-BB1fQzYa)

EV's need batteries and wires. The things we need to make batteries and wires need to be mined. Just how much unallocated copper/lead/lithium/rare earths etc. are floating around? How will their pricing play out as use skyrockets? What if any environmental impacts will be incurred in the increased mining and processing required to produce these metals?

Will any new mining be permitted in the US? Can we trust socialist governments like Peru and Chile to supply us over say China?

Just asking as things too good to be true generally are. Melt a little sand into glass and collect free clean energy. What could derail such a perfect plan?




Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Walnut Beast on May 06, 2021, 06:09:29 AM
Everybody seems to love cordless tools why not cars 🤷‍♂️
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 06, 2021, 06:15:03 AM
controlling the things western society needs and wants is how theyre gonna paint us all red. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on May 06, 2021, 06:52:10 AM
Everybody seems to love cordless tools why not cars 🤷‍♂️
I have nothing against electric vehicles. I have a lot against the forced conversion without preparation and even more trepidation related to "experts" whose only experience comes from being lectured to from someone else who also has no real world experience. 
Plastic bags were going to save the trees. 
The real issue nobody wants to address is a world population of 8 billion and growing. That many people can't survive with things looking untouched. Probably will be a war with China over dwindling resources that thins out the herd long before climate change takes us out.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on May 06, 2021, 06:58:15 AM

Quote
The real issue nobody wants to address is a world population of 8 billion and growing.

Yup.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Trackerbuddy on May 08, 2021, 09:35:28 AM
controlling the things western society needs and wants is how theyre gonna paint us all red.
Who's They?
Don't forget big car manufacturers are eager to get into the electric car business.  It turns out it takes 30% less time to make an electric car versus a standard car.  Less time means lower labor costs. Lower labor costs means higher profit margins.  Bottom line GM wants to make electric cars because they can make more money.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Tacotodd on May 08, 2021, 09:44:22 AM
I only liked it because it’s true. It doesn’t mean that “I” like the fact of it being true. I like the option to carry around a (MUCH) bigger tank to increase (my) driving range. With batteries (so far) this specific reality hasn’t came about. A lot of the worlds problems are not so easy to fix...at least not with a bigger tank.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 08, 2021, 12:54:59 PM
Quote
Who's They?


The 2nd world.


Thats an answer and a riddle on purpose.  If you get it theres no need for me to explain and if not theres no amount of evidence that will change it.  And im tired of explaining.    
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Gary_C on May 10, 2021, 04:58:42 AM
According to a recent study in California, one in five people that bought electric vehicles sold them and went right back to a gas powered vehicle. Seems the most often problem cited was charging stations for the batteries. Plus what you are buying is a battery on wheels so in ten years when you can expect the battery to fail with no current disposal means, your EV will have little value.

Also Bill Gates believes it will take till 2050 for most of the conversion to EV's because he thinks we must triple the capacity of the electric generation plus the electric distribution capacity. Gates believes that is the lesson we learned from the Texas outage where we must be able to have a lot of reserve capacity and be able to move electricity long distances across the country.

But then again, what does Bill Gates know. All he ever did was sell us crappy software that did not work and then made us pay to fix it.  ::)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 10, 2021, 10:13:21 AM
I guess oregon thinks theyre ready.  

Oregon lawmaker introduces bill to ban the sale of 'petroleum' diesel at gas stations starting in 2024 (https://cdllife.com/2021/oregon-lawmaker-introduces-bill-to-ban-the-sale-of-petroleum-diesel-at-gas-stations-starting-in-2025/)


popcorn_smiley
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Crusarius on May 11, 2021, 02:29:47 PM
let the insanity continue....

It is great to have goals, but not looking at the economic ramifications its just ridiculous!!!!!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ventryjr on May 12, 2021, 06:18:36 AM
Being a die hard diesel guy my whole life. And building American muscle cars in my early years.  I’m greatly considering a EV for the wifes next ride. From what u understand Most of the complaints are about not enough charging Stations.  But every new retail location I build puts one in.  So I think that trend will shift.  And with battery expectations.   Who in their right mind expects to keep one of these over complicated sensor driven gas or diesel cars running in 10 years without dumping mountains of money into every wire connection or sensor.   I do think the tech is there for the ev cars now.  Having test driven a few Tesla’s I’m very impressed by the performance straight out of the factory.  They don’t have to limit performance to meet emissions starts like the gas/diesel vehicles.  It’s a shame that you buy a $85k+ diesel pick up. Then have to spend another $5k to make it run right and not burn it’s own farts.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on May 12, 2021, 06:39:08 AM
Who in their right mind expects to keep one of these over complicated sensor driven gas or diesel cars running in 10 years without dumping mountains of money into every wire connection or sensor.


Dunno. my Toyota is an 07, so 14 years old. Has had minor mechanical issues like a water pump and an alternator. Zero electronic issues. 

Wife's car (also an 07 Toyota) chewed out a big end bearing last month. (have done a motor swap), but again a mechanical issue.  Maybe put that down to poor maintenance in the previous 10 years in Japan?  

Meanwhile friends Chinese LDV vans are dropping like flies with random electronic mechanical issues. Cheap and high tech, not a good combo... 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ventryjr on May 12, 2021, 06:51:02 AM
Who in their right mind expects to keep one of these over complicated sensor driven gas or diesel cars running in 10 years without dumping mountains of money into every wire connection or sensor.


Dunno. my Toyota is an 07, so 14 years old. Has had minor mechanical issues like a water pump and an alternator. Zero electronic issues.

Wife's car (also an 07 Toyota) chewed out a big end bearing last month. (have done a motor swap), but again a mechanical issue.  Maybe put that down to poor maintenance in the previous 10 years in Japan?  

Meanwhile friends Chinese LDV vans are dropping like flies with random electronic mechanical issues. Cheap and high tech, not a good combo...
Maybe my problem is buying American  ::)  I haven’t been thru 3 brand new gmc 3500s since 2010.  And had to replace endless sensors on my wife’s 2015 crap-illac.  Had to do, Glow plugs, transmission wire harness, parking sensors, wheel sensors, oil sensor, ignition module, abs sensor, and  traction control on every dually at 120ishk 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stanmillnc on May 12, 2021, 07:48:39 AM
Had repeated issues with the DPF / DEF system on my RAM Cummins diesel - went into limp mode several times due to issues with this emissions system. Latest issue required replacement of the entire system - pump, sensors, etc. Was only 500 miles out of warranty and dealer wanted $4k to repair / replace! AND they told me that parts are unavailable for 11 weeks due to being under "engineering review" (implying they know there are system issues, yet won't cover under warranty). I'm thoroughly disgusted with all this expensive, sensitive emissions crap and unable to go 11 weeks without my truck, so it's all getting ripped out and re-tuned this week. So if electric is the alternative to avoid headaches like this in the future, I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on May 12, 2021, 08:04:09 AM
Colonial pipeline is having a few "electronic" issues this week.  The way I see it (range and recharging time excluded as that is not resolved yet) the propulsion source is not the issue, rather it's the complexity of the systems and I don't think these EV's will be any less complex.   
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ventryjr on May 12, 2021, 08:28:20 AM
Colonial pipeline is having a few "electronic" issues this week.  The way I see it (range and recharging time excluded as that is not resolved yet) the propulsion source is not the issue, rather it's the complexity of the systems and I don't think these EV's will be any less complex.  
Agreed! Although they will not have to hold back on actual ev engine performance like they do with gas or diesel to meet emissions standards. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on May 12, 2021, 09:37:36 AM
I would be willing to bet that if EV's became mainstream and the grid needs updating then they will throttle back performance to reduce the emissions from the system as a whole. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on May 12, 2021, 11:07:45 AM
Colonial pipeline is having a few "electronic" issues this week.  The way I see it (range and recharging time excluded as that is not resolved yet) the propulsion source is not the issue, rather it's the complexity of the systems and I don't think these EV's will be any less complex.  
Agreed! Although they will not have to hold back on actual ev engine performance like they do with gas or diesel to meet emissions standards.
well maybe.  but what about energy efficiency.  I know they can have all kinds of power, but what if everyone had an electric vehicle and not enough electrical power generation.  may have to ration power.  may have to detune the computer for very gradual increase and decrease in speed.  that is how you get economy.  if you run out of energy along the road, do you walk to a store and carry a battery back to your car.  will it be like internet speed.  they brag on it but during peak times a computer detunes your system to accommodate usage.  let the world grow into it you can solve unforeseen problems as you go.  push hard like is happening, and you will have a mess, and the rest of the world laughing and taking advantage of our self induced crisis.  if we cannot make enough electricity, do we fall back on coal, oil, NG, what % of the land will have to be covered will solar cells and or wind turbines to fulfill our needs.  I do not think we know and the proponents of EVs do not really care.  how much petroleum and heavy metals are used to build these.  do we even have enough silver and copper, and can we afford it when everyone scrambles to get it.  how will we mine it???  big truck and excavators with diesel engines and moved with locomotives electric powered by diesel.  should we stick with what we have until the world ends in 7 years anyway.  We need common sense free market and not have political parties pick winners and loosers.  no one minds if some of the cars are electric powered.  but do not shove it down everyone elses throats, ruining lives in the process.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 12, 2021, 12:31:00 PM
a hundred likes doc.  



if there was only one grocery store in town, you sure wouldnt like the prices.  and when activism runs those evil, dirty, cheap competitors of electricity out of town, youll see just how much electricity can cost.  price setters have been buying government since government began.  he with the gold makes the rules, and only a fool trusts in the benevolence of any dictator.


i will spend the rest of my life preparing my kids to avoid the coming economic slavery that a lot of other peoples kids are gonna be swiftly delivered to with a feel good promise that fails to come true.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: HemlockKing on May 12, 2021, 01:00:08 PM
I think homesteading and self reliance oughta make a come
Back mike, back to the basics, screw consumerism, modern slavery. You’re right it will get worse, late stage capitalism, money works for itself to make more money, meanwhile the working class have no time for that as they can hardly
Keep their heads above water. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 12, 2021, 01:32:42 PM
i am a capitalist, but yes.  late stage capitalism.  where the love of a dollar is greater than all others. ill have no part in that either. 

i guess ive grown into a conservationist in every sense. waste not want not.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on May 16, 2021, 11:55:07 AM
my wife just showed me a FB pic of a field of identical white cars in France, deemed to be electric cars.  it would cost more to replace the batteries than the cars cost, and no land fill will take the old ones.  several hundred cars.  poss. fake, but I could believe it.  better not get rid of petrol till we are really ready for a "transition".  transition is not making laws to outlaw the sale of diesel fuel.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Jeff on May 16, 2021, 01:31:13 PM
I was talking to one of my previously unknown neighbors last week who is an engineer working towards totally electric school buses and bus fleets. He says this will happen, and those bus fleets will all be interconnected to be an electric sump when there is an additional demand or down turn in production of green energy producing equipment. Nightime, cloudy days, calm days.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: beav on May 16, 2021, 01:43:44 PM
Jeff- Yes! Only every ev owner will be hooked in to equal a ginormous battery. And it will prolly give a huge discount on electricity rates .
The future grid!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 16, 2021, 02:04:13 PM
Theres a billion power tools on the planet.  Lets see that fleet go full solar before we throw away our cars and trucks on a solar gamble.  They cost more than houses used to and my wages sure havent rose to match the expense hike. 


All i see is a program where top down legislation will make some folks really rich and others will get boxed further into a regulated poverty they cant afford.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: btulloh on May 16, 2021, 02:40:36 PM
Jeff- Yes! Only every ev owner will be hooked in to equal a ginormous battery. And it will prolly give a huge discount on electricity rates .
The future grid!
Like in California where the rates are 10x here. Plus they seem to have trouble with permits for grid additions or improvements. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: stavebuyer on May 16, 2021, 03:35:34 PM
Central KY had a local cell phone provider that wouldn't share its towers with the big boys. They finally sold out to Verizon and the changeover is just now finalized. We have been trying to swap out a couple ATT phones/numbers that will now work where we live. We have had the numbers for over twenty years and one I used for business so we have been burdened with phones from two carriers(one works at home and the old numbers phones work everywhere else) for the past 5 years. Double bills double phones and never fail the call comes to the phone with poor connection)

So five trips to the phone store and one new phone finally works with the old number. The second can make/send calls but incoming goes to the old phone that is supposedly disconnected. When settling the bill for the new equipment yesterday their cellphone based little tablet card reader thing a ma jiggy wouldn't process credit cards(myself or my wife from different banks). Being an old fashioned curmudgeon who hasn't forgotten leaner times I had cash to settle the bill in my wallet. Sadly whatever computer issues they were experiencing also was connected to their cash drawer which they could not figure out how to open(wood fiber furniture drawer really high tech security that could have easily been defeated by a hard pull) so I had to make exact change as well.

Somethings are timeless and better left alone like a wheel, inclined plane, cash money, and my dino fuel.


Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on May 18, 2021, 08:20:26 AM
Electric cars have far fewer parts than traditional ICEs so complexity reduction is guaranteed (why unions hate EV transition -in the USA, Japan and Germany).  They are all electric so of course almost all the problems are centered there.  For instance, Tesla EVs with 400k miles have only had 1 brake job but lots of little electrical issues most of which get solved with OTA updates but not all.

@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) the recyclers smell money and are massively increasing capacity.  At the same time battery life is increasing so much that many drivers will only need the 1 pack their entire life (million+ mile battery packs).  I expect actual recycling need to fall far short of capacity (building more capacity right now in the US than we have need for at this time).  

Globally the PV manufactures delivered 2.7 GW of solar panels in March, average costs was $0.34/watt.  For perspective that 2.7 would be a good sized Nuke plant.   Not free yet but prices are falling a penny a month or more so it 2 years we might see $0.10/watt.  At that point just stick fields and fields of them out there.  The real constraint now and for the next couple of years are batteries.  When battery production catches up to demand (no waiting list for a tesla will be a good indication) than pricing will start to plummet and NG plants will start going offline as battery storage eliminates NG peaker plants with low utilization.  Then the ones with high utilization, than nukes.  NG has already shut many coal plants and that is continuing.  I think 87 major coal plants left, in 10 years economics of NG will have closed those.  

At that point solar power will basically be free on the production side of things.  Some install costs and wiring and power electronics but the production itself over the cost of the system will be just pennies.  That's the point at which neat things happen as innovative people find new uses for free power. 

Every month the cost reductions on solar exceed the previous estimates and planned capacity installs exceed expectations.  

@Ventryjr (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=47944) I expect you'll be able to enjoy a new Rivian or Cybertruck or Ford EV for less and spend less driving it.  If you can wait for 1 more year on the wifes tesla I would do it.  The new battery packs are not out yet and I think it is the most compelling shift in EV production.  A million mile battery pack not only has less degrade but they will charge faster.  Not a killer but if you can wait a year or two I would.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on May 18, 2021, 09:41:16 AM
Thanks @nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) , you may be right.  I think the time line will be longer.  the problem is the politics.  shutting off petrol before we are ready, and then prob. give a crap ton of money to the solar/wind people to help with the new crisis they created.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 18, 2021, 10:12:25 AM
"never waste a crisis"
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: jb616 on May 18, 2021, 11:12:50 AM
Thanks @nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) , you may be right.  I think the time line will be longer.  the problem is the politics.  shutting off petrol before we are ready, and then prob. give a crap ton of money to the solar/wind people to help with the new crisis they created.  
It all depends where the "powers that be" have their dollars invested....Can I say it out loud that when the Keystone project was stopped that I Googled who had the most $ invested in Canadian rails system and Mr Gates and Mr. Buffet's names came up...I think if you look at the safety and efficiency (dare I say "Science") of moving oil, pipelines outshine the rails any day of the week. But as we now see, that is not what is going to happen in my opinion because of who has their dollars invested in rails. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Tacotodd on May 19, 2021, 06:23:04 AM
"never waste a crisis"


Thanks @nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) , you may be right.  I think the time line will be longer.  the problem is the politics.  shutting off petrol before we are ready, and then prob. give a crap ton of money to the solar/wind people to help with the new crisis they created.  
It all depends where the "powers that be" have their dollars invested....Can I say it out loud that when the Keystone project was stopped that I Googled who had the most $ invested in Canadian rails system and Mr Gates and Mr. Buffet's names came up...I think if you look at the safety and efficiency (dare I say "Science") of moving oil, pipelines outshine the rails any day of the week. But as we now see, that is not what is going to happen in my opinion because of who has their dollars invested in rails.

And the winner goes on to these both by the way of: follow the money 💵 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on May 19, 2021, 08:08:41 AM
Makes you wonder where electric vehicles would really be now if it was a true free market?

Who is pulling the strings to keep stuff on dino fuel all this time?
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on May 19, 2021, 08:32:40 AM
well I doubt i will junk my 1980 JD850 and go buy a little electric tractor to put a tiller on.  Free market will always have a place for dino (stored solar) fuels.  the green new deal is politics on steroids, not free market.  Destroy society and save the world.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on May 19, 2021, 08:45:43 AM
I won't be junking my tractor either, just wondering out loud.

It would be hard for me to think that oil companies and their share holders have my and your health and best interest in mind...$$$

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 19, 2021, 09:18:27 AM
There was a saturn EV in the 1990s and a documentary called who killed the electric vehicle made it look like the oil companies bought off someone on the CARB panel iirc. however the world is not always as straight forward as it appears.  Literally hollywood movie stars had them rounded up at the end of leases i think.  They all went to a crusher it appeared.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on May 19, 2021, 09:26:05 AM
I agree hilltop, nor do I think the solar or wind folks do either.  making batteries, mining and making copper and silver, making the plastic for the wind mill blades, and all the wire for the generators.  prob. all consuming fuel and polluting the earth.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on May 19, 2021, 09:31:31 AM
Not too long ago Ibadrola was one of, if not the biggest player in renewable energy. Building solar, bio, etc all over the place. The good guys, looking out for the environment, saving the planet, giving big oil a run for their money.

A previous employer tasked me to work with them on a significant project, so being who I am I wanted to know who I was working with. Followed the money. At the end of the day the ownership was middle eastern oil interests. The same people are still getting your money, you just feel better about giving it to them.

Same scenario will play out with legal dope. Big tobacco will own the game.

There is no spoon. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on May 19, 2021, 09:36:58 AM
I agree hilltop, nor do I think the solar or wind folks do either.  making batteries, mining and making copper and silver, making the plastic for the wind mill blades, and all the wire for the generators.  prob. all consuming fuel and polluting the earth.  




True, there is so much information (and misinformation) that it is really hard to fathom the best way to go and there is no doubt that one size does not fit all.

On another note the local museum has a electric car from the early 1920's.

https://www.yarmouthcountymuseum.ca/electric-car (https://www.yarmouthcountymuseum.ca/electric-car)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 19, 2021, 10:26:01 AM
Followed the money. At the end of the day the ownership was middle eastern oil interests. The same people are still getting your money, you just feel better about giving it to them.

wealth conveyors are everywhere. new ones are always being constructed, and usually need a big political or crisis push to get the conventional flow diverted to the new belt.  

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: HemlockKing on May 19, 2021, 10:53:53 AM
I agree hilltop, nor do I think the solar or wind folks do either.  making batteries, mining and making copper and silver, making the plastic for the wind mill blades, and all the wire for the generators.  prob. all consuming fuel and polluting the earth.  
This “green” living environmentally friendly stuff is a scam. You think the big guys care about the environment? HAH! Profit all day. It’s sold as good for the environment when really it won’t make much difference if it all, especially at the rate China and India are polluting the earth and soon to be newly developed country’s in Africa on the rise. I think the battery cars are just another way to scam the people out of their money. If they really wanted to “keep the earth green” they would encourage self sustainability, putting more into the land than you take out, living within your means, enjoying life. Big SUVs, fancy houses won’t get you happiness, dangle the carrot in front of the donkey though and it will keep going. Also the population should be addressed but can’t have that because need that profit off the constant growth of people and Economy stimulation. End of the day to build these battery cars you need to still disrupt the earth by mining these special metals.
I’m not dead against electric vehicles but I definitely think they are being used to extract even more money from the people.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 19, 2021, 11:08:23 AM
youre on the scent hemlock king.

there is a deceased poster here, jim king, from before my time.  he was a forestry professional living in the amazon, debunking the 'save the rainforest' scam as a wealth conveyor.  "amazon deforestation" will find him for you.  

anyways the old conveyor was save the rainforest.  the new conveyor is save the planet from ____ and "climate change" is the crisis button that engages the track switcher. thats why save the rainforest is dead dead dead.  because it didnt need saving, it wasnt being clearcut at 3 football fields per minute and the acid rain that i was to be afraid of as a child thanks to the WWF ads and such never materialized. the conveyor conductors dont want to remind a new generation of all that so the amazon is forgotten.  today amazon means a van throwing packages at our porch.  

the new generation and others with a short memory are busy buying into this new conveyor that is built precisely like the ones before it once you scratch off the new labels and see the old ones underneath on the organizations and NGOs.  look up the names of the actual humans and youll see they move from scam to scam in wealth conveyor circles.  


i could easily be for electric vehicles so i can stop filing ignition points and starter commutators, but only if they were built from open source components i can order from digikey and have troubleshooting schematics available manufacturer direct for free. that would save MY WORLD some grief.  opening up new mining and hazwaste sites after we just killed off all that evil coal isnt saving THE world any grief.  

theres a lot of hypocrisy in the green movement parking battery sludge right next the coal slurry lakes that the green movement insisted the electric car was needed for.  


Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: jb616 on May 19, 2021, 11:58:00 AM
We started with Global Warming....That propaganda didn't quite work out when we were having "polar vortexes" so then it was changed to "Climate change" and we still don't have any buyers, so the new term will be "Climate Justice". Let that sink in. 99% if it is wealth redistribution. So the Rich America can pay for the sins of the polluters. There are 7 rivers on this earth that are the highest polluters of the ocean and none of them are in the USA, yet we will pay for it. 
      I have no problem at all with electric cars by choice. It is really smart to not have to pay road tax through gasoline and still be able to use the roads. I just don't agree with forced or legislative decisions that are made "for" us...I honestly don't think any of them give a rip about the environment because they never leave the cities to experience it. It is truly about the redistribution of wealth...my .02 :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Andries on May 20, 2021, 12:20:55 PM
. . . .   my stance is that you are looking at an individual machine vs an individual machine and not seeing how the entire support system for it plays out, how LONG it takes for the entire system to get there. . . .  
This quote from Mike stayed with me. . . . from back in January. Yeah, I'm wired that way.
Play it forward a few months, there's been all sorts of ads, up here in Middle Canada anyway, from Ford. Dealers are taking deposits for purchase, delivery by Fall.
All-Electric F-150 Prototype: Tows 1M+ Pounds | F-150 | Ford - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXFHgoon7lg) 
Looks impressive in the video, doesn't it?
.
Mike's comment asks "bigger than one truck questions", such as:
Where's the nearest charge station?
What's the loaded travel range of that truck?
Is the Ford repair network, or the indie repair network, ready for this?
Lifespan question; are they durable? 
Time will tell, deeper pockets than mine will be the early adopters.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 20, 2021, 04:25:22 PM
I read the quote and thought yeah those are good points. Who said it?  Oh ..   Hmm.  No recollection, just talkn out my bum. 

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on May 20, 2021, 05:43:50 PM
What ? ? 

Here we are hanging on your every word of wisdom and you just rambling ? ?

:D :D
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on May 20, 2021, 06:39:29 PM
Yeah pretty much.  I wouldnt put much stock in my jib jab. 

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on June 01, 2021, 12:50:40 PM
Tesla Fined for Limiting Battery Range | Industrial Equipment News (IEN)  (https://www.ien.com/video/video/21451769/tesla-fined-for-limiting-battery-range)

Tesla having some capacity issues apparently
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Al_Smith on June 02, 2021, 09:56:22 AM
I'm old enough to remember corded electric lawn mowers .Probably just fine for a postage stamp sized lawns but for some reason after some usage all the cords had a zillion patches from being mowed over . 3M sold a lot of electrical tape .Those btw were a rather lived short fad . 
Later I think it was General Electric that had a battery powered riding mower .Okay for a slightly larger lawn, maybe a quarter -third  of an acre before it needed  a charge .
For the cost of those batteries you could buy a lot of gasoline for the old tried and true Briggs and Stratton engines . Plus those old engines are still in use while the battery powered contraptions went to the scrap yard 35-40 years ago and probably ended up being a bumper on a Toyota .
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: HemlockKing on June 02, 2021, 10:04:34 AM
I'm old enough to remember corded electric lawn mowers .Probably just fine for a postage stamp sized lawns but for some reason after some usage all the cords had a zillion patches from being mowed over . 3M sold a lot of electrical tape .Those btw were a rather lived short fad .
Later I think it was General Electric that had a battery powered riding mower .Okay for a slightly larger lawn, maybe a quarter -third  of an acre before it needed  a charge .
For the cost of those batteries you could buy a lot of gasoline for the old tried and true Briggs and Stratton engines . Plus those old engines are still in use while the battery powered contraptions went to the scrap yard 35-40 years ago and probably ended up being a bumper on a Toyota .
I have one of those old sears lawns tractor from the 70s, 8hp Briggs and Stratton. The tractor is tiny but it zooms around ! 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Al_Smith on June 03, 2021, 11:37:49 AM
It's pretty hard to kill a Briggs engine .Run it out of oil I suppose .
I have a 5 HP I was having trouble with and replaced the points ignition with a solid state aftermarket unit which cured it .
Now anytime you do that some "expert " gives his or her advice which I take with a grain of salt .It was suggested  my method was not acceptable unless I changed the flywheel from  an engine that used the "magnetron"  Briggs coil .Problem being it was not the high priced self advancing Briggs unit that does not advance .Inexpensive after market coil but thank you very much pointing  out my lack of knowledge .Factory trained techs, gotta luv them . :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: barbender on June 03, 2021, 12:14:49 PM
Usually my Briggs engines die from being thrown down the driveway or buckshot or something. I hate them.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: nativewolf on June 16, 2021, 09:27:27 PM
Get Ready For A Flood Of Sugar As Brazilians Buy Electric Cars (https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/get-ready-for-a-flood-of-sugar-as-brazilians-buy-electric-cars)

The gist :  Brazil used to have no oil, lots of land so a variety of govts backed ethanol as a means to convert forest to ag.    Lots of cheap chinese EVs (no safety standards) coming so a flood of sugar cane coming on the market in the future.  Think sugar prices will fall and be more volatile.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on June 17, 2021, 01:27:51 AM
If they aren't smart about it, then yes they could have a glut of sugar. But the thing is, methanol and ethanol are worth more than gasoline on the world market. That's not just as fuel, but as a feed stock for plastics and other chemical manufacturing.  We had a processing plant here (years ago) that was converting natural gas into gasoline. It worked, but wasn't very efficient, a lot of gas and electricity was used in the process. When they actually took a look at the economics they found the intermediate stage (Methanol) could be sold for MORE than the gasoline. So the gasoline stages of the process were scrapped and a couple more Nat Gas to Methanol converters installed. 

Brazil has been using ethanol as motor fuel, because as you say they don't have much oil. But the price has been adjusted (via tax rates?) to make the ethanol attractive, so the locals use it rather than imported gas. 

If anything I'd expect to see a glut of industrial grade ethanol, as they have the sugar and the factories to process it. 

Anyway, it wont be a sudden thing. Even if everyone started buying only electric cars tomorrow, it would take ~10 years to get 50% of the vehicle fleet changed. 

Also, how's their power grid? It would be rather dumb to replace sugar powered cars with electric ones that, need an oil fired power station to charge them.... 

Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on June 17, 2021, 09:24:56 AM
The world keeps getting fuller of rather dumb things so i wont be surprised if whoever rules the brazilian masses insists on just that.  Lets ban good old sugar cars and force them to buy bumper cars and hang expensive unreliable sparky wire nets all over the country.  Itll be great.  And ITS GREEN!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: HemlockKing on June 17, 2021, 09:51:59 AM
The world keeps getting fuller of rather dumb things so i wont be surprised if whoever rules the brazilian masses insists on just that.  Lets ban good old sugar cars and force them to buy bumper cars and hang expensive unreliable sparky wire nets all over the country.  Itll be great.  And ITS GREEN!
I’m going to live under a rock. Problem solved 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on June 17, 2021, 11:20:37 AM
 :D

I came to that same conclusion.  Just tune it all out and stubbornly refuse to go along for the ride. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Hilltop366 on June 17, 2021, 11:54:06 AM
Get Ready For A Flood Of Sugar As Brazilians Buy Electric Cars (https://www.bloombergquint.com/business/get-ready-for-a-flood-of-sugar-as-brazilians-buy-electric-cars)
How many millions is that?
Sorry, had to ask.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on June 17, 2021, 02:51:55 PM
a whole bra worth times a zillion. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on June 17, 2021, 02:59:25 PM
I don't know, Brazil can grow soybeans that rival the best yields here in the US  The Chinese buy lots of soybeans.  I can see cane being plowed under and new $1,300,000 JD X-9 combines heading south.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Paul_H on June 28, 2021, 07:32:09 PM
Felling of 90 Mitsubishi 1000A Wind Turbines - Controlled Demolition, Inc. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyfms05WNoY)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on June 28, 2021, 09:49:50 PM
Soo why are we demo'ing wind towers that arent all that old yet?  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: JJ on June 28, 2021, 10:01:43 PM
my guess, drop-in replacement.

     JJ
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Tacotodd on June 28, 2021, 10:25:36 PM
So that taxpayers can spend more money on taxes. A vicious circle!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Crusarius on June 28, 2021, 11:17:13 PM
after 10 years of service they get decommissioned because the fiberglass or whatever they use in the blades has to much fatigue to operate safely. It costs to much to replace the blades and apparently they are not recyclable.

Good majority of the wind mills put up around here no longer spin since they are over 10 years old. So now they take up what could be very valuable farmland and do not produce any power.

Funny how none of this was disclosed during the voting to allow them to be put up. Really sad to see the deforestation and lost farmland for such a short term gain. Worst thing is they are not even doing anything to convert it back to usable land. They are just leaving the towers stand not spinning.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Crusarius on June 28, 2021, 11:20:11 PM
And don't get me started on all the wasted land going to solar farms. 

There was an article a very long time ago in popular mechanics talking about making the roads solar cells. That would be such a great thing. Especially mid west to west coast.

The solar shingles could be a great opportunity and have subsidies in place to help ppl pay for them. If done right they will not look out of place and will work.

ok, done with my rants :)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Ianab on June 29, 2021, 01:38:34 AM
There was an article a very long time ago in popular mechanics talking about making the roads solar cells. That would be such a great thing. Especially mid west to west coast. The solar shingles could be a great opportunity and have subsidies in place to help ppl pay for them. If done right they will not look out of place and will work.


Heck locally it's hard to even maintain a roadway, let alone one that's supposed to generate power. The idea has been tried, raised a lot of investor $$, and hasn't produced anything practical. 

The solar roof tiles on the other hand do seem more practical. Rather than mount solar panels above a regular roof, which doubles up the cost, make the panels into the roof tiles? You don't have the problems of multiple trucks thundering over them every day. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: peakbagger on June 29, 2021, 07:22:07 AM
Sad to say that to date the various solar roof attempts have failed miserably. Several companies came out with systems and they ended up abandoning the market. Tesla can make what looks to be a durable roof but at a very high cost. They are on their third major redesign and were losing money on every roof they installed. They just bumped up the cost substantially and now require a battery installation which gives them a big tax break and long term revenue stream to offset losses on the roof. To date the solar roof has been mostly a bait and switch to get folks in the door. Once in the door the potential customer gets convinced to install conventional panels.  They tried to get contractors to start installing the systems but most shy away as the contractor reportedly gets stuck with lot of risk on cost overruns. The installation generally takes 2 to 3 times longer than regular panels. There are questions on the durability and long term support for the product. The roof is not waterproof, its just a layer of shade protection over a waterproof membrane (not a bad way of going but expensive). The roof is injection molded plastic panels underneath with snap in solar tiles and lots of small wires and connectors up under the roof. This is a hard place for plastic and wiring as temps can get up to 180F. Tesla has already abandoned old tech and what happens when they abandon solar roof owners?.  At best they stop generating electricity at worse the plastic fails and the tiles start popping off in a windstorm. The only fix is an expensive strip job, a new roof and a couple of dumpsters of junk to dispose of.

Conventional panels are currently cheap and with the exception of the roof mounts which are engineered pretty well do not affect the current roof. With the panels on top of the existing roof, the life of the underlying roofing is substantially extended. On new construction its cheap to put in a few items to make it easy to be solar ready.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on June 29, 2021, 07:49:13 AM
We had one client that looked into the roofing panels, over a decade ago, luckily he didn't as that was abandoned. I don't like being on the bleeding edge of new tech but appreciate those willing to pioneer. I really prefer mast mount in the yard, rooftop sounds good and we do have several clients with them but you have 2 things going on, roofing leaks/service, more so with more penetrations and panel service/traffic up there. They are light but it is another dead load to think about and then if a firefighter needs to get up there and vent there is another problem.

I am hopeful, very much cheering those in R&D on, and we do need to change, but also be realistic. Reality kind of has a way of happening whether we have our rosy glasses on or are screaming and kicking anyway.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Crusarius on June 29, 2021, 08:18:38 AM
I love the roadway idea but I do understand how challenging the logistics and traffic are. Especially with more cars on the road every day.

I still feel solar is not where it needs to be. Especially for the way it is being pushed all over the place. Wind was pushed all over the place and now look at all the abandoned wind farms and personal windmills at residential locations.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on June 29, 2021, 09:32:26 AM
You want to solve the energy situation real fast instead of dragging it on for another lifetime of he said she said?

Cut the power off for a month and leave people in the dark with no subsidy or govt intervention.  Within weeks youll see lights start coming back on and staying on, and youll know who has figured out what works.  


Its all smoke and mirrors data and sales pitch BS when youve got a green grid overlaying a fossil grid. Like sticking a "flex-fuel" emblem on a 4wd 454 suburban.  A holier than though "green" figment of peoples imaginations.  Cut off the gas pumps and see how flexible that 454 is when theres no green juice station network that ever evolved.  Lets see how many EVs are cruising around by day 2 with no fossil grid charge.



Cut the cord on that fossil grid for a minute and youll see the green paint wash off and reveal just how fossil grid dependant the fake eco pitch is.    Oh youre real concerned about the planet miss earthy crunchy iphone and a latte?  Turn off your Air Conditioner.  

The inside of my camper hits 91 pretty often.  Lets see you sleep in that for a summer and ill respect your moral convictions a whole lot more.  Forget about cooking anything indoors.. Youll eat cereal and sandwiches the whole summer to avoid suffering that extra 8 degrees.




I have plenty of respect for true offgridders, it requires a vastly different lifestyle.  Industrially offgrid is a tremendous feat as it requires huge planning and inputs and forever chores just to make the power you arent buying anymore.  

I really only see that being possible for businesses with large stable wood or coal waste material volume to burn in their steam electric plants.  Otherwise youre buying in your combustible material to make electric and that is probably not as economical as just buying amps off the grid due to the grids enormous economy of scale.   Independant boilers and turbines arent cheap to feed, staff, maintain or replace and that all takes away from generating any actual profit from the main gig.

Im afraid under all the paint and varnish, green is just a big program to transfer and defraud us of our wealth and squeeze our industries out of profit. Gorbachev was in the global warming business full time just a few months after the "collapse" with the help of one N pelosi/ presidio partners.

'Save the rainforest' proved a sham in hindsight and it disappeared as soon as 'save the planet' went online as the one-world,  underlying perpetual crisis. Overlayed with all the other short term crises stickered on top.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: gspren on July 01, 2021, 10:51:37 AM
In about a month construction on my 46x64 pole building will start, one side will be close enough to south to maybe be good for solar so about 1500 sq ft. Building will be typical pole building with 4-12 pitch, trusses on 4' centers and metal roofing. I don't know if I want the solar or not but if I later do should I have done anything different now? There will be a 100 amp service from house to building.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Don P on July 01, 2021, 05:35:03 PM
I'd up the top chord dead load on the trusses about 10 psf.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: tmarch on July 01, 2021, 06:47:42 PM
I have my array on my pole building roof and it works well, but I woulda put it on the ground if I had known what I know now.  Snow does build up and cuts production and with a ground mount you can adjust the tilt angle for the best production.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Stephen1 on July 03, 2021, 08:06:20 AM
My neighbour has a micro fit system on his roof and is replacing his shingles this week. He 1st had to pull the panels that have been up there for 10 years. He is on the micro fit program and it has been very profitable for him. 
The shingles just did not last long enough. Even the shingles under the panels did not look that good, starting to curl. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: peakbagger on July 03, 2021, 08:55:54 AM
In about a month construction on my 46x64 pole building will start, one side will be close enough to south to maybe be good for solar so about 1500 sq ft. Building will be typical pole building with 4-12 pitch, trusses on 4' centers and metal roofing. I don't know if I want the solar or not but if I later do should I have done anything different now? There will be a 100 amp service from house to building.
Depending on the roofing type, installing a Soladeck roof transition https://rstcenterprises.com/soladeck/is about it. Rarely does a AHJ require additional roof reinforcement for modern roof. If you are running conduit run some steel conduit up to the Soladeck and you are done but you can wait on the conduit. The key is for the roofer to install the box and flash it in.

I agree with the prior poster, if you have a sunny spot for ground mount its lot easier to remove snow which means more winter production. A typical pole barn roof is going to hold snow on panels a lot longer. FYI, panels on roofs act like metal or slate roofs, when the snow lets loose it will come down in one big lump which can be dangerous to people and pets and can do damage to anything where it hits.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Old Greenhorn on July 15, 2021, 05:50:52 AM
I'm just gonna leave this right here:
Mercedes trolluje branżę elektrycznych samochodów w SNL. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1tbf8muMc)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: peakbagger on July 15, 2021, 08:03:55 AM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/54288/20210707_1304005B15D.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1626349078)
 


I just picked up one of these trailers for various uses. The company that built them, DC Solar, decided a Ponzi scheme was more profitable than building these so the Federal Government seized all the corporate and personal assets to pay off substantial creditors. Berkshire Hathaway and Progressive insurance along with a lot of other big investors lost 100s of millions. There was lot of financial wizardry on why investors bought them but the net result is these trailers were selling for less than the parts in them. They were intended to be used at large public gatherings like Nascar events and football games. Its a modular design but its an off grid or grid connected power plant on a car trailer. This one has 3200 watts of LED floods on two telescopic towers but more importantly 2300 watts of solar panels, 2 540 AMP 48 volts batteries, a 11KW Kubota water cooled "quiet" diesel, a bulk diesel tank and all the electronics to make it run. It puts out 240VAC at 50 Amps.


I think it may be a nice option for smaller portable saw mill uses. The PV panels are not big enough to run the mill but unless the saw is running all the time the batteries feed the motor topped off with solar and then the diesel kicks on at full load to recharge the batteries. That is lot more efficient than idling a diesel. The electronics are quite smart and could support additional panels. Used panels are quite cheap these days and still put out 80 to 90% rated power so its a possibility. The alternative is use the battery capacity down to the point prior to the diesel kicking on and let it recharge  for a day or two until its charged back up again. Definitely not an option for a production mill but may fit a hobbyists use.

My plan in the short term is run most of my household circuits off it but only use the diesel for maintaining the batteries. Big lead acid batteries need to be equalized by slight overcharged on occasion and the solar panels dont put out enough juice to do it. I am probably building a new home in the next 2 years and I will haul it over to the site and use it to get the place built, then when I hook the house up with permanent power I will strip the parts of off the trailer and mount them permanently.

Right now I plug in my plug in hybrid to recharge the battery.I dont have much use for the light towers but will crank them up at least once to annoy the neighbors. They cover quite an area.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Old Greenhorn on July 15, 2021, 08:24:12 AM
WOW, nice rig!
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on July 15, 2021, 10:35:06 AM
vey nice. how much does it weigh?  at first I thought someone designed it to power the lights by solar...  anyway sounds like you got a great deal otherwise could not afford it, and sorry so many other got scammed.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on July 15, 2021, 11:07:30 AM
Yeah thats about the only way the common man can afford the latest wizz bang tech.. For it to come out of someone elses pocket by usury of one sort or another. 

 Legislation that forces us to abandon functional old paid for tech and replace it with unaffordable or unreliable new tech by some certain date to meet some certain NGO summit definition standard thats sold to UN assemblies and the nations bound therein is only making the poor get poorer.  

Some guy living in his old car gets ticket after ticket for rejection stickers in the emissions states in the parking lots where hes sleeping.  Does that help society?  Suspending his license for too many tickets in one calendar year? Giving him a bench warrant for failure to appear to a court date he didnt get for lack of mail?  

Its a side of life that those who make the rules arent even aware of, and the masses are slowly getting to know more and more about.  Dont knock the guy whos down and out because the next economic crash might put you right there with him.  It happens fast. 


I worked 7 days a week when i almost lost my license and my ATF regulated job over a red sticker on the windshield and no money to do anything about it. The killer still gets a public defender for free while the decent guy struggling to keep the roof over his kids heads gets harassed.  Thats what i have seen the clean air act do in my life. Make struggling people poorer and cities get dirtier. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: HemlockKing on July 15, 2021, 11:16:47 AM
Yup now we’re being slapped with carbon taxes as individuals through gas in Canada lol . Even though the government will happily support corps that ship all our work over seas just to make an extra .5 cents on a item. Hear nothing about those ships rolling coal the whole way to Asia though no ??? Hahaha what a joke this whole system is. Oh and get this, when we throw out the trash of these products we ship it back to Asia!  :D :D :D We don’t even recycle our own stuff! 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: HemlockKing on July 15, 2021, 11:17:53 AM
Good lord just let me live under a rock. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on July 15, 2021, 11:43:11 AM
Didnt mean to rant.. Something triggered a memory!  


That trailer is a beautiful score to be proud of, the technology is an astounding scientific feat, but the back story contains the ugly side of bringing it to market against consumer demand.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: peakbagger on July 15, 2021, 04:55:17 PM
The trailer weighs 8000 pounds. The forklift batteries are close to 2000 lbs each. As someone who follows solar I run into folks frequently who want or need to go off grid. Many try to start small and learn the hard way that they wasted a lot of money on junk. Generally the recommendation is buy cheap batteries to begin with and then use them to learn how not to use them. Good batteries rarely die they are murdered by abuse and neglect. Once someone has to live a winter with dead or dying batteries they get religion and if they are still married, havent moved back to town,or burned their house to to ground due to sloppy installation practices they spend the cash for premium batteries and follow the rules for long battery life. I just got done equalizing the batteries and checking cell voltages and was pretty happy with what I saw. The batteries look in good shape. With this equipment its all top quality stuff, its good out of the box and add an additional solar array and its premium off grid system. Used lithium batteries from EVs are starting to hit the aftermarket and folks are building stationary battery packs for off grid use.My guess is when the forklift batteries die, that a lithium battery replaces it.


The bummer is I do not have a good wiring diagram of the trailer so there is some guess work. Ultimately I will probably draw one up if I dont find one. I do have manuals on the various components but how they are wired is work in progress.     
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on July 15, 2021, 05:31:16 PM
Reading all the horror stories about newbs sulfating their brand new bank or having bought spendy hardware that wouldnt work with their version 2.0 build is what made me wait on buying any of it.  In time that tech gets better and cheaper.  

I tried pretty hard to get a huge bank of VRLA standby batteries that work scrapped because it was reading below spec, knowing i could probably hot charge rehab the majority of them but it fell through.  Even with scrap connections it was REALLY hard to find salvageable VRLAs as the battery dealers always want them for cores.  Joe shmoe isnt scrapping that stuff.

I did end up buying 2 small diesel generators needing repair for $100, a big 4cyl diesel 3 phase onan for like $1200 or so with 500 hrs that fires instantly, 4 solar trough hot water concentrators, a bunch of 4x8 solar glass panels with the diffusion surface on one side, pair of 300G insulated stainless hot water storage tanks with 3 or 4 exchangers in each, many taco pumps, differential temp controllers, thermal switches etc etc etc.  All good used cheap stuff.  Maybe spent $2k total.  People collect for years then give up once they have a pile and want it all gone at once.  And theres me.  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mudfarmer on July 15, 2021, 06:20:45 PM
Good batteries rarely die they are murdered by abuse and neglect. Once someone has to live a winter with dead or dying batteries they get religion and if they are still married, havent moved back to town,or burned their house to to ground due to sloppy installation practices they spend the cash for premium batteries and follow the rules for long battery life.
:D :D :D Nailed it!
Lived it, learned it, tried to tell people about it, they repeated the cycle. Some lessons in life we are all meant to learn the hard way apparently. I got lucky and found decommissioned telco batteries to limp by on (nicely) while scrimping and saving for big boy toys.
We know someone that bought the same trailer rig at the auction, what a nice deal and awesome quality! 8) Someone else locally bought one, immediately doubled+ the price and tried to sell on CL for a long time but didn't manage to gouge anyone. Now it sits at a used car lot. Boy I sure would like one after getting a hands on look but not after it goes through a string of middle men as bad as the original ponzi.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on July 15, 2021, 08:31:50 PM
I see the exact same thing done with auction skid steers.  Sunbelt rentals sends em to ritchie bros and some guy with a semi buys all of them in the 10-15k range then puts em on FB/CL etc for $25-28k.  Irritating.  I see the same with GDOTs auction trucks.  They sell for $7k and end up on FB with a flatbed instead of service bed for 30Gs.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: brianJ on July 22, 2021, 11:30:44 AM
  (https://preview.redd.it/tghupf0yc7071.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=43f3422cb9940309852abb72bf4b72fe013c2e8d)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: brianJ on July 22, 2021, 11:37:56 AM
Once the competition starts between S&P500 companies tech will move improve and sell quickly.      That was my point with the photo and wish I knew how to edit that
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on July 22, 2021, 12:07:47 PM
Im still waiting for solar and wind fanatics to start hanging their wash out on the line. 
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Southside on July 22, 2021, 02:23:46 PM
Mike - you just won the internet.   8)
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on July 22, 2021, 10:18:16 PM
And not a minute too soon, just got the call today that my extended warranty was about to expire!  Phew..  
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Tacotodd on July 22, 2021, 10:33:46 PM
I’d like to get an extended warranty on myself, but I don’t want da’man involved in any way/shape/form! I’ve got enough problems….
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on July 22, 2021, 10:51:41 PM
I just got healthcare for the 1st time in 5 years, thanks to my sweet wife workin her tail off.    Its nice to have me under warranty again. smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: Tacotodd on July 23, 2021, 08:57:13 AM
With your time in the USMC I am surprised that you don’t have VA coverage.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on July 23, 2021, 09:05:45 AM
I think there are some income limits and you have to sign up.  better than nothing but not perfect.  I learned a lot of medicine at VA hospitals.  the brick and design are often the same from a particular era.  the one in Albany, NY, is almost the same as the one in KC, MO.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on July 23, 2021, 09:40:23 AM
With your time in the USMC I am surprised that you don’t have VA coverage.
Well, theres a long story there id rather not disclose, but me not responding would be suspect and were 30 pages in so the topics pretty well whipped i guess.

 I am eligible for VA and did use it in my 20s for a few years. They were slightly less brutal than active duty medical care, it was better than none most of the time.  I had a BCBS family plan for the decade at the plant, which was great.  Then i left in 2016 and started life on the road in my truck moving my equipment.  Maybe half finished.


Wife and kids were down south, i was mostly absent and her cousin was staying for the kids. Wife got a job immediately but could never seem to get one with family coverage option.  Lots of promises at sign on.. 90 days to be eligible.  130 days in you get tired of the runarounds, find out its life insurance not health insurance. And these users know that, they just play dumb to get a worker for 3 months.


The kids needed care so she signed them up on Tenncare. I am ideologically opposed to the taxpayer being burdened with my kids but things just never worked out, weve been hand to mouth for 5 years. The trucking jobs i had were all 1099.. No withholdings or benefits. When covid rates forced me to quit trucking she was ready for a kid break. It was maybe 6 months at another user job with the fake promised insurance and then the one shes at now that actually has it. 

full benefits does not leave much takehome pay from $13.50 a hour but we are making it. My rule is one parent home one parent at work. If we have 2 incomes we will just learn to spend all of that and then require it forever.  What if one of us gets sick?  Im not losing a paid off place.  So we are frugal like people should be.


Anyways i definitely could not take my kids medical away since we had so many bahavioral issues with the boy and wife would probably leave me if i tried.  But i also couldnt stand being a freeloading hippocrite so i "paid for" their care the only way i could.  By not burdening the system with mine.  I voluntarily did not ever use VA again.

  I know theyre different pockets on uncle sams coat but it was for me and a lesson to my kids.  When you grow up, dont take what you havent earned.  I hate socialism so much that i want no part of it. Even the free stuff they dole out in the early phases of coming to power.  Its being stolen from someone elses paycheck and is a crime.

My wife was on VA during this period.  Shes an army vet.  I got pretty lucky and was able to sweat out all but one ER incident that came out to around $3k.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: doc henderson on July 23, 2021, 03:12:15 PM
I will just say that of all the government insurance programs, a veteran has earned it more than any.  I respect your philosophy.  my dad told me when he joined the military, the recruiter told him you never have to worry about health care.  He also told me that his mom paid the pediatrician (they had 11 kids, good Catholics in the 30s and 40s) 2 dollars each month.  I have never turned a pediatric patient or their family to collections.  Thanks for sharing a private part of your life Mike.
Title: Re: Electric equipment and the future to come
Post by: mike_belben on July 23, 2021, 05:27:36 PM
Thanks doc.  My pay back then was enough, i got out able bodied and dont feel owed in any way. It definitely hits a man right in his pride to not have the family provisions worked out.  Been a humbling decade for me.