PEG-o-lation

[Don P]

I found this description of PEG and how to apply it. We were discussing it as a check preventative in log work on another site, thought some slab makers might wanna gander too ;).
http://www.rockler.com/tech/57018.pdf
I ended up reading a neat marine salvage/restoration site that used PEG on an old warship preservation, a neat description and some good tech info on how they do it (follow the links in the conservation and restoration section).
http://www.abc.se/~m10354/publ/vasa.htm#V.%20Conservation%20and%20restoration%20process

[woodman]

   I read just about all of it, but i ask myself is it cost effective for logs. How is it applyed to logs just the end or do i put it on all the cut lumber.

[Don P]

Sorry :D, I was talking log home logs, so a value of dollars per foot, its still a big push. It is mostly for specialty stuff, I have a Q up looking for a cheaper source. It appears that it would help checking even at lower concentrations by slowing MC loss and bulking the outer shell where the early drying stresses do their worst. http://www.permachink.com/shellguard.htm  
This is one of the products we were discussing. We started on a thread about borates and this one came up, borates and PEG, so I hadta look around more.

Hey I got one to work! : :D

[CHARLIE]

Only problem I can think of with PEG, is if you want to finish the treated wood. Varnish won't dry. It just stays sticky. :-/

[Don P]

Yeah, I found the same  type reports, I saw something about a poly finish working. I think I'll probably try a batch at home, I'm curious whether it is a "finish" itself. It seems to my chemically illiterate mind that there must be some way of catalyzing the surface. I guess its another case of weighing benefits.
Maybe I'll try some IV bottles of water based finish and a girdling :D

[CHARLIE]

I don't know if it'll work, but give shellac a try. I know that if you are trying to varnish a pine board with a sappy knot, you can shellac over the knot and it seals in the sap. Might work on PEG to. : :-/

[Tom]

I recall a conversation at the Jacksonville Woodworkers Association about fininshing PEG turnings and I think they decided that oil finishes were the way to go. Been a long time though and I may be miss-remembering.

[L. Wakefield]

   I think the reason shellac works for pine sap is that they are similar chemically and so mix together but the shellac then hardens over the sap. No beading up or separation. if this is the principle, then something similar to PEG in structure (at least mildly so) and yet hardening might make the best success. I guess oil finishes might fall in that classification. With the 'won't harden' problem,  wonder if there is something about the PEG that inhibits the curing process? My chemistry really isn't good enough to answer this.   lw

[splinters]

 Seems as I remember reading once about trying plain old antifreeze in place of PEG. But I don't remember the results. It may have been some artistic woodturners working green hardwood. ;D

[Don P]

With most of the antifreeze I've seen it would end up green even after it dried :D.
I had heard the same thing about woodturners using antifreeze. You have to figure that a bunch of guys who are too tight to buy good wood but scrounge around the firewood pile for roots and burls would go try something like that :D :D
My understanding is antifreeze contains something like PEG50 instead of PEG1000 and is too thin to be really effective...but being green at this whaddoikno :D.

[CHARLIE]

Don_P, you tried to get a rise out of me and it worked! ;D Turners don't necessarily want good wood. A good turner (that excludes me) can get more money for something turned from wood that is rotting (spalted), mold stained, knotty, or grain that runs every which way. Nice clear even grained wood is.....ahhhh....blah. ???  Why would a turner pay for wood when there is so much free wood available (ie firewood, logs on the forest floor, etc) : unless they want some exotic wood.  Now, I don't soak my wood in anything that might be harmful if I breathed the dust while turning...or cutting with a saw for that matter. For those that do, I just hope they are taking precautions and wearing a respirator. I've heard of turners boiling their wood in water and detergent which breaks down the wood cell walls, allowing the water to escape more easy which reduces splitting of the wood. I haven't tried it though.    

[splinters]

Well I didn't know about the antifreeze. Now I do.  Charlie sounds like one of them artistic turners. Where we see bad firewood or woodpecker diners they see form, beauty, and a marketable product.  

[CHARLIE]

DonP, there is a new found treatment for wood in the woodturning community which seems to do what PEG does but is better and allows finishes to be used. Woodturners are excited about this and are reporting that they've been able to turn a green rough blank, treat it and finish the bowl within a week.  There is an article by Ron Kent & Phil Wall in the Spring 2002 of American Woodturner (American Association of Woodturners).  I'll paraphrase it for you.

SOAPY BOWLS
by: Ron Kent & Phil Wall

Ron Kent found that brushing on about 6 coats of a cheap dish concentrated dish detergent mixed 1 to 1 with water stabilizes the wood. The benefits are: First, there is the advantage of stabilizing the wood; there is a great deal  less  "movement" and warping both while working on the vessel and after it is taken off the lathe. A second favorable difference shows up in cutting. The shavings are a delight!  Clean, long, cohesive ribbons both for fine trimming and for the macho adversarial plunge-cuts. It feels almost as if the wood has been lubricated and allows the edge of he tool to slide smoothly through the cut. It also allows sanding green wood and wood that is soaking wet. The sandpaper still clogs but you can just slap it against the lathe bed to clear the grit and allows reuse again and again.

Diluting with isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol instead of water seems to give deeper penetration, but Ron isn't sure the added expense is justified.  

Ron's technique is to mix the detergent on a 1 to 1 ratio with water. He rough turns his green wood bowl blank, removes the work from the lathe and slathers on a thick coat of the mix, then waits a few minutes for the foam to soak in . Then he repeats the application maybe as many as a half dozen times.  After the soak, he sets the work aside for a few days to allow the detergent to permeate the wood and become surface dry.  

He has also used this method on logs that have dried out in the woodpile and find the method more pronounced than with green wood.

The detergent seems to  enhance oils used in finishing the works.

They began e-mailing others who also gave the detergent a try. Here are what some others have found.

Phil Wall - Phil makes a 6:1 solution of water to detergent and a little alcohol to retard bacterial growth (DON'T USE CLORINE BLEACH).  Phil puts this solution in a large plastic container and soaks a green rough turned item (1/2" to 5/8" thick) about 3 to 4 days. He removes them from the solution and allows them to drip dry for 3 or 4 days. The blank should be finish turned as soon as you can do it without getting a detergent shower. If by chance you don't get to it right away, just resoak the wood and start over. Phil was able to go from tree to finished product in one week or less. What Phil has found: 1) Little or no cracking/checking 2) Minimal movement out-of-round (on most pieces)  3) Smoother cross-grained cuts  4) Detergent acts as a lubricant for the tool. 5) Oil finishes are deeper and more colorful. 6) No toxicity to food related bowls. 7) Inexpensive wood stabilizer.  8 ) Sanding is improved. Paper doesn't clog. Works like stearated paper only in reverse.  One thing to remember is this process doesn't fix what is already split or checked.

Dr. Smith, a surfactant chemist at Condea-Vista Inc, felt that the surfactant is most likely doing what they think it is -- stabilizing the wood. There are 3 theories on how. 1) The polar region of the surfactant is migrating into the wood, associating with the cellulose matrix and stays in the wood after the piece is removed from the solution and dries. This means the volume of surfactant remaining in the wood prevents the degree of shrinking or controls the rate of shrinking (by providing a more efficient transfer mechanism for the water to leave the wood) so there is not the large differential between pith and outer rings shrinkage.  A second variation is that the sufactant enters the wood and pulls along with it more water. Together these stay in the wood to limit or control the shrinking.  A third variation is that the surfactant goes into the wood and just retards the natural drying.  Also, it is  quite possible that a completely different mechanism than the simple polarity of surfactant, cellulose and water is responsible for this behavior. Of course, it doesn't matter if it works does it?

There were 5 other reports from individuals in the article that tried soaking the green wood in water/detergent with excellent results.

If you have questions regarding this process or would like to comment further, please e-mail Phil Wall: woodturner@peoplepc.com or Ron Kent: ron@ronkent.com

Note to Jeff B. Jeff, since you and Stacy are working with green wood on your knew venture, you might see if you might could apply this technique.

DonP and others,  it sure wouldn't hurt to test this technique on whatever application you are using with green wood. If you have good results I'm sure Ron Kent and Phil Wall would be interested even if it didn't apply to woodturning.

Charlie