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White Pine Board and Batten FAIL

Started by Brad_bb, August 19, 2019, 12:33:09 AM

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Brad_bb

Some of you may have seen my responses in the past regarding carpenter bees and softwoods.....well now it's worse.

Back in 2016, built a large timberframe and sided it with 12" white pine board and batten.  Looked great.  I did seek advice about using White Pine as siding here on the forum and from a few other timberframers.  The concern was really about rot, but no one ever mentioned carpenter bees.  The following spring carpenter bees bored 1/2" holes under the eaves, and in some of the trim around the ovehead doors.  They were so prolific that we decided we had two choices, have to pay to spray every spring in perpetuity, or remove all the siding and trim and re-side in hardie board.  We weren't going to do it for a few years though.  This week I took a walk around the building and found more damage this time from a woodpecker or several, apparently pecking to find carpenter bee larvae that had escaped our previous efforts.  This is what they did in a very short time.  The moral of the story is that you should not use softwood for  exterior use, unless you live far enough north that carpenter bees are not an issue.  Where I'm from in IL, there are no carpenter bees.  This building was built in Indianapolis, just 3 hours south, but in the range of carpenter bees.


 

 

   The carpenter bees must have bored holes for the eggs under the lip of the window sill trim as there was no visible holes on the outside or top.  The wood pecker tested the wood and can hear the hollowness of the bee larvae tunnel in the wood.  They then set about pecking their way to the grub.  I doubt the bees would attack hardwood, and they definitely won't be able to damage Hardie board.  Costly mistake.  
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Brad_bb

Additionally, the carpenter bees will go after softwood framing lumber.  What that means is any wood framed pole barn or shed down there using manufactured wood trusses will get bored into especially near the open ends of buildings.  Horse arenas, animal shelters, open stall barns etc, get attacked and compromised.  I don't think paint will stop them either.  Maybe there might be some coating, but I am not aware of one, at least not a permanent solution.

The bees start holes on the underside, or on a face that is protected from rain. They bore a perfect half inch up to 4 feet long.  They are smart enough that they can bore in a 1x2 without the tunnel breaking out anywhere along the way.



Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Ljohnsaw

Where I'm building my cabin, there are no carpenter bees but plenty of woodpeckers that love to build nesting holes in all the cabins.  My cabin is going to be covered in Hardi plank!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Don P

We have them fairly bad, I need to rebuild the entry porch, in locust this time. I did a wrap around porch a few years ago in EWP, painted with kilz primer and then a couple of top coats, a pretty tough finish. I could see them looking it over but haven't seen any holes yet. I do not see them boring in places other than the exterior faces and edges of buildings, I think framing is low risk.

One reason I used white pine for my shop was the powderpost damage in another barn here built of hardwood. It seems if there is food or shelter someone wants to move in.

A-z farmer

We built a 40x200 pole barn in 1957 out of hemlock and we used 2x10 for the trusses
A few years ago during the winter half of the roof collapsed but it was full of hay .
We could not believe all the holes in the trusses from the wood bees and we think that along with snow and wind caused it to fail.We used tongue and groves hemlock for siding and keep it painted and the wood bees have never touched it.
My uncle built a house out of red wood in the early 1970s because it was rot resistant .Today it looks like Swiss cheese with all the wood boring holes ,and he does not believe in any chemicals to stop them .
Zeke 

Raider Bill

Both of my friends cabins in Tenn are full of them.
Badminton rackets, .22 snake shot and PB blaster although fun hardly dent them.
I had them under my eaves until I used Sherwin Williams Super deck semi transparent stain. That seems to slow them down some but not completely.
The First 70 years of childhood is always the hardest.

ESFted

Something like this will help keep down the numbers.   Easy to make and it works for me.

Homemade Carpenter Bee Trap - YouTube

S.U.N.Y. College of Environmental Science and Forestry '65
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Brad_bb

I've built traps and hung them up.  They catch a lot of flies, some wasps, and occasionally   a few carpenter bees. I've sprayed. Still new holes appear.   Traps and chemical sprays are only temporary or partial solutions. Best to build it out of something they won't attack.  They haven't touched any of my hardwood- Ash or oak.  They also won't tough Hardi board.  
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Nebraska

 Just curious, are they susceptible to borate treatment?  I don't think they are much of a problem this far north, so I guess I will see if they bother with my Ponderosa Pine board siding I'm putting on several sheds.. Used to have a woodpecker whose favorite morning  pastime was to peck the devil out of a metal roof vent, when we had a new roof installed  I put  on ridge venting.  He went away.

Don P

Since they don't ingest the wood borate has no effect on them. Stain isn't going to do much if anything. A paint film that is tougher than their jaws will provide a physical barrier, which is why they avoid many hardwoods, I have had them in tulip poplar.

Generally they go for edges under an overhang, obviously not always. They avoid thinner siding edges like bevel or dolly varden patterns where they will raise havoc on 4/4 roughsawn edges next door. There is not enough room for a gallery in the thinner edge, the old timers did have a trick or two. They had heavy coats of oil based lead paint too :D

Nebraska

 Thank you, I went back and read life cycle data on carpenter bees, my bad I thought the larval stages may have used wood as part of a food source, It didn't occur to me mom provided the meals and built the house, so she doesn't consume the wood at all. just  remodel.  I just don't ever remember reading/hearing much about them and since I don't run into them here well  yesterday wasn't a waste I learned, which is a great reason to be here. 

D L Bahler

Don you answered my question before I got the chance to ask it. Around here there are a ton of old barns sided with spruce shiplap (maybe it's fir, I don't remember) This stuff was typically painted, but even when the paint wears off it lasts ages with no bugs. I was curious as to how this might be. But as you point out, there's not enough material there for them to build their nests, so they leave it alone.

I perk up every time this question about carpenter bees comes up, I'm always looking for solutions to the problem. 

Is white pine more susceptible to their attacks than other softwoods? Would fir or spruce, say in exposed exteriors walls of a log or solid timber building, fair even slightly better? 

MAD MARK

I've been spraying my new outside pine structures with BASF Termidor. I know its formulated for Termites, but is also a useful inspectricide. I've noticed the Bore Bees dont touch the wood after it's been sprayed. Also works well for mud dobbers and paper wasps.

It's also not noticable after dried on painted and stained surfaces. Dont be shocked by the price though it's worth it.

Termidor SC - Termidor Termite Treatment Spray - Fast, Free Shipping | DoMyOwn.com

Don P

Interesting, sounds like it is acting as a repellant. Drione dust is one of the traditional ways of killing them after nesting by dusting in the holes, a pyrethrin it is a nerve poison and not a repellant. It has fallen out of favor somewhat, it can take out any bees, your pollinators, which are in trouble so don't put it anywhere but in the hole.

Chuck White

Not sure if they're around here, but most likely they are, just haven't noticed!

I like your trap design!

ESFted, just wondering if any kind of bait or attractant would help you to get MORE bees?
~Chuck~  Cooks Cat Claw sharpener and single tooth setter.  2018 Chevy Silverado and 2021 Subaru Ascent.
With basic mechanical skills and the ability to read you can maintain a Woodmizer  LT40!

Just Right

I have a barn that you couldn't walk around in the bee season.  Thousands of bees.  Several years ago I put up several bee traps and started putting at dent in them.  This year we started spraying with Hatchet.  That made a noticeable difference.
If you are enjoying what you are doing,  is it still work?

bluthum

I've sided many structures with short leaf pine over the last 43 years and never seen a carp bee in any of it. Both b&b and lap. All the siding I've used for myself  has never been painted or had other treatment, there is some 15 feet from where I sit [it's outside of course] that was put up around 1980 that is sound as new.

What I have experienced is them nesting in eastern red cedar and western cedar , even fascia boards inches from the pine.  Go figure.

petefrom bearswamp

Have had a few in the fascia on my shop
EWP siding and trim.
No problems with the siding.
It has several coats of stain on it.
When at Jake's Last April I never saw so may carpenters without tool belts.
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57 acres of woodland

hedgerow

I am in eastern Nebraska and had never heard of carpenter bees until this summer I went on a AC service call just a few miles from my house at a cabin that had cedar siding and all the trim was ceder to. He had a bunch of those traps showed in the picture. I could believe the damage that building had. Usually around here termites are the problem we have to watch out for. 

35chevypu

a bb gun and beer at in the afternoon teaches you aim and leading your target. carpenter bees are a real nuisance but can turn into fun


samandothers

I think my bee traps have helped.  I need to finish some siding and then coat with some stain.

David M

Rumor has it they will avoid eastern hemlock. Not sure if that applies to young growth as well as old growth with the higher acid content..

PA_Walnut

I just built my entire DH kiln structure out of EWP and a little spruce. I'll have to keep an eye out for them. 

I understand that they don't like low vibrations as it interferes with their communications system. Hopefully the fans are the right harmonic for this. Also understand that they really dislike citrus oil. May have to mix up some orange oil and spray it well.

Will see soon, I suppose.

I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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michaelyares

We had the bees in our porch here in Western North Carolina. We heard that hornets nests are a deterrent. Read up and my wife made two ''nests'' out of onion bags and dryer lint and we hung them on the porch. We had no bee or paper wasp activity in the vicinity last year.... Time will tell if they get on to us or not as spring is in the air.

Sedgehammer

I read somewhere's, maybe even here's that used motor oil or even motor oil will keep them away. Supposedly, allegedly we have them here, but so far they have stayed away from our dark walnut ready stain with motor oil in it. 

I have also read that putting termidor in your stain also works for many other bugs also
Necessity is the engine of drive

mike_belben

Nothing eats motor oiled wood.  If a stack of wood is gonna touch the ground, the first piece being soaked in oil will quadruple its lifespan as long as there is good runoff and airflow.  


We have the bees pretty bad and its not just carpenters.  Many many times i see bumblebees coming out of the hole.  Which help my garden and i really hate to kill.   Theyll go after a store bought 2x severely despite being attached to a sea of roughcut oak. 


Hit the holes at night with a shot of ether or carb cleaner thru the straw. Just watch your eyes.


Praise The Lord

kantuckid

Quote from: samandothers on January 04, 2020, 08:22:47 PM
I think my bee traps have helped.  I need to finish some siding and then coat with some stain.
I still have bee traps all over our log house. This recent warm weather we haven't seen any wood bee activity and they are usually out some now on sunny days. Last summer I hired an Amish roofer to do a steel standing seam roof and also wrap the gable rafters in steel made by the roofing company mfg. I tired of sprays. doweling holes, ugly yellow bee poop, several brands of woodpeckers and holes in my house. Maybe not gone but heavily restricted now.
EWP is a VG outside wood if properly situated and maintained.
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

kantuckid

Quote from: David M on January 07, 2020, 03:49:25 PM
Rumor has it they will avoid eastern hemlock. Not sure if that applies to young growth as well as old growth with the higher acid content..
Their native tree species are said to be cedar and poplar. I serious doubt that hemlock deters them? They drill into PT wood, why not hemlock. Paint or solid stains slow them down some. Steel is best.
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

kantuckid

Quote from: michaelyares on March 18, 2021, 01:27:28 PM
We had the bees in our porch here in Western North Carolina. We heard that hornets nests are a deterrent. Read up and my wife made two ''nests'' out of onion bags and dryer lint and we hung them on the porch. We had no bee or paper wasp activity in the vicinity last year.... Time will tell if they get on to us or not as spring is in the air.
A stack of EWP beams under roof gets attacked by wood bees and the hornets obviously fight them each summer-maybe they eat the bees larvae?
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Don P

Where there is a mix of hemlock and EWP on a barn they do seem to much prefer the pine.

Trackerbuddy

This from DIY pest control dot com
You can prevent Carpenter Bees from drilling those holes in the exterior of your homes if you spray a residual insecticide on the exterior surfaces before they start nesting activity.
We suggest FenvaStar EcoCap, LamdbaStar UltraCap 9.7 CS, or Cyper WSP Insecticides. Spray on the areas that are vulnerable to Carpenter Bee holes. Usually these vulnerable areas are unpainted or unvarnished woods. Popular drilling choices for carpenter bees include under siding, under deck rails, under eaves, window frames, etc.

With an active infestation, we suggest the Carpenter Bee Kits that contain a residual insecticide to mix with water and spray. It also includes insecticide dust and duster to dust into the carpenter bee galleries.
Some of the kits include a special duster (B&G 1150 R Duster)  with a curved tip in order to get the D-Fense or Tempo insecticide dusts to the galleries.


Brad_bb

Insecticide works - for that year only.  It washes off, or becomes inert over time and they come back.  So my choices were to have the pest control guy treat the building every single year until I'm dead, or change the siding and bee done with it.   I chose the latter- to Hardie Board siding.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Jstier

Quote from: Brad_bb on August 19, 2019, 12:33:09 AM
Some of you may have seen my responses in the past regarding carpenter bees and softwoods.....well now it's worse.

Back in 2016, built a large timberframe and sided it with 12" white pine board and batten.  Looked great.  I did seek advice about using White Pine as siding here on the forum and from a few other timberframers.  The concern was really about rot, but no one ever mentioned carpenter bees.  The following spring carpenter bees bored 1/2" holes under the eaves, and in some of the trim around the ovehead doors.  They were so prolific that we decided we had two choices, have to pay to spray every spring in perpetuity, or remove all the siding and trim and re-side in hardie board.  We weren't going to do it for a few years though.  This week I took a walk around the building and found more damage this time from a woodpecker or several, apparently pecking to find carpenter bee larvae that had escaped our previous efforts.  This is what they did in a very short time.  The moral of the story is that you should not use softwood for  exterior use, unless you live far enough north that carpenter bees are not an issue.  Where I'm from in IL, there are no carpenter bees.  This building was built in Indianapolis, just 3 hours south, but in the range of carpenter bees.


 

 

   The carpenter bees must have bored holes for the eggs under the lip of the window sill trim as there was no visible holes on the outside or top.  The wood pecker tested the wood and can hear the hollowness of the bee larvae tunnel in the wood.  They then set about pecking their way to the grub.  I doubt the bees would attack hardwood, and they definitely won't be able to damage Hardie board.  Costly mistake.  
I live in Southeast Indiana and own a log home. We battle those little guys every year. We spray, plug holes, dust holes and if you miss one the wood peckers will let you know. Thankfully they only touch our eaves and trim. One of the many reasons its nice owning my mill.   

I built a Sawmill shed out of Ash B&B and they haven't touched it either. Guess they should of built my cabin out of ASH haha

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