New Whole Shop Outside Cycle Dust Collector Install

[Mossy Chariot]

Great looking system Robert (@yellowhammer).  Having designed and installed industrial air pollution control systems for over 40 years, I know the hardest part is layout, sizing, and balancing the ductwork.  Yours looks great!!  Did the ductwork come from Oneida?  Looks like it was prefab sections.  Assuming you ordered it that way, you did a great job of laying out the length of each piece.  I know there is a lot of flexibility when connecting to equipment with flex hose but it still has to be pretty close.

[YellowHammer]

Thanks for the compliments.  No, we didn't' use the Oneida ductwork, I used a different company, Duct Incorporated, in Clemmons, NC, that had better quality pipe for about the same money.  They had a very experienced person for me to talk to, which is rare these days, a guy named Patrick Russell, Sales Manager, and they do a very quick turnaround.  It's an excellent company to deal with.  

We got lucky in that Patrick and I were able to work the lengths pretty close to full length, but they have a really cool telescoping adapter called a "Slip Joint" where I could cut a piece of standard pipe about the right length, several inches long or short, then slide the slip joint section on it, adjust it to the correct right length and snap the clamp on it.  The clamp has a big O ring that fits over the edge of the joint, so it forms an air tight seal and can be moved and adjusted any time later.  It's a great system, and actually easier there cutting and sealing conventional duct.  It means things can be easily adjusted later if a new machine is added, or changed position.

[farmfromkansas]

I tried to deal with Oneida, and couldn't even get through their phone system.  Got lucky and found a 3hp Dust Cop at a community college that they were selling, and found it had never been hooked up. Still had to replace the motor, as it turned out to be 3 phase.  But makes me a great system, with 6" pipe all over the shop, what is really great is I can plane a whole pile of lumber with no dust on the floor, and the shop stays mostly clean. I have added a over the table saw dust hood, and increased the connection size from 4" to 6" on as many machines as possible, except the planer, as it does a good job with 4".  My little system doesn't even come close to comparing to YH's but I am happy with it. One thing, put my vent up on the outside of the shop, about doubled my suction compared to running through the filter back into the shop, and cleaner air as well.

[SwampDonkey]

I've been looking at the Festool dust collectors myself. Something compact, because I only worry about the stuff floating in the air. Planer chips I just sweep up. It's a bit premature at this stage, since I haven't got the shop up yet. With a wood stove for heat, you really have to get the dust out of the air, and for me that is mainly from sanding. That aerosolized fine dust can explode like cooking gas.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/dust-extractors/111500-festool-ct-48-ac-hepa-dust-extractor-with-autoclean?item=ZT576761

and this add-on.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/parts-and-accessories/77011-festool-ct-cyclone-pre-separator?item=ZT204083

[farmfromkansas]

Swampdonkey, you might look at outside wood furnaces, have a neighbor who bought one for his shop, nice unit, has a blower on the combustion air, thing really burns well.  Keep the fire outside your shop.

[YellowHammer]

I'm big proponent of exhausting air outside, no matter how much cold or hot air comes in to replace it.  I've had some internal systems and hated taking a sawdust bath whenever I had to change bags or bins.  Some of the places I work with have inside dust collection systems, and even though they are supposedly HEPA systems, there is always caked fine dust around them, on the rafters or floor, indicting they are not stopping all the dust

Of course, sawdust is a fire hazard, and the finer it is, the worse it is.  

It's also a health hazard, and I've seen lots of professional woodworkers with the old "sawdust cough" as they tell me they don't need a dust collection system.

Having a good system also makes for a much cleaner work environment, as every bucket of sawdust that goes outside into a dumpster is one less buck of sawdust I have to sweep up inside.    

[Old Greenhorn]

I've been looking at the Festool dust collectors myself. Something compact, because I only worry about the stuff floating in the air. Planer chips I just sweep up. It's a bit premature at this stage, since I haven't got the shop up yet. With a wood stove for heat, you really have to get the dust out of the air, and for me that is mainly from sanding. That aerosolized fine dust can explode like cooking gas.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/dust-extractors/111500-festool-ct-48-ac-hepa-dust-extractor-with-autoclean?item=ZT576761

and this add-on.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/parts-and-accessories/77011-festool-ct-cyclone-pre-separator?item=ZT204083

Man, those Festool's are pricey for their capacity. As I am now well into the entry level I am learning a lot as I go. Putting dedicated hoods on the machines help a lot, but it is hard to get it all. General collection for things like a sanding bench requires a lot ore thought and is less effective unless you get really fancy. Yesterday I put a dust hood behind the small stuff I was sanding and it worked 'just ok' and for larger things like table tops it is really hard to suck dust out of the air. What DOES work well is attaching a vacuum directly to the dust port on the individual tool, then combining that with a general hood for anything that escapes. You still won't get it all by it greatly reduces any flying dust.  


 
In the photo above you can see the white bench on the loft, that is my sanding bench and the chimney passes close by with the stove nearly directly below. The chimney gets covered in dust (well, up to recently when I added improvements) and I just blow it off if I notice it, it is not a problem. The stove gets some too and if it is left too long, the dust turns brown, then black. I blow that off when I notice it too. I thought about dust when I put in the stove, but I have 17' ceilings and am just one guy working, so it really hasn't worked out to be an issue. Now with the system coming together my 'general dust conditions' have improved tremendously and I am not even 'there' yet.
 BTW, When I bought the planer the seller threw in a old 110v 1/2 small roll around dust collector which I didn't really need. Man that thing is the cat's pajamas for my shop because the planer and joiner are down on the floor, so I just use the small one. I have found it saves me a LOT of cleanup time, plus the planer head doesn't clog or re-cut chip, better boards. It only take a minute to roll it in, hook it on, and then another minute to put it away. Much easier than sweeping bending and picking up. For the summer months I may make a cover for outside the window and put it outside blowing into a garden trailer to save unload time. That is, if I have a decent planeing job.
 You may have noticed the pre-collector in the photos on my thread and I ma really pleased with how that is working out and it is easy the shove a hand truck under it and roll it right out the door to the compost pile.
 Whatever you do, I'd suggest taking your time thinking it through. Dust collectors are a much more important and expensive consideration than I ever thought. This is the one rare project where I am building it with just a general idea as I go to see how it responds and functions, then adjusting my plan. That is my biggest take-away from this experience. (Oh yeah, and get a remote switch!) 

[SwampDonkey]

Guys, my operation is small potatoes, if I were in your shoes I'd do the same as you're doing. I'm not trying to suggest you do otherwise. But I don't kick up huge volumes of dust that this Festool system can't do an ample job on. Your scale of operations is different than mine. Definitely going to have my stove indoors, firewood to. Have for 30 years in my old shop. Shop is 20' x 24' x 8' ceiling. Quick and easy to heat with a little stove. Maybe 2 cord wood. My old shop used 1 cord of wood, narrower shop.

[alan gage]

I've been looking at the Festool dust collectors myself. Something compact, because I only worry about the stuff floating in the air. Planer chips I just sweep up. It's a bit premature at this stage, since I haven't got the shop up yet. With a wood stove for heat, you really have to get the dust out of the air, and for me that is mainly from sanding. That aerosolized fine dust can explode like cooking gas.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/dust-extractors/111500-festool-ct-48-ac-hepa-dust-extractor-with-autoclean?item=ZT576761

and this add-on.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/dust-collection/parts-and-accessories/77011-festool-ct-cyclone-pre-separator?item=ZT204083

About a year ago I added an Oneida Dust Deputy and was very surprised at how well it works for something that looks so cheesy. I use it in conjunction with my shop vac (with bag installed) for all my sanding and track saw usage.
I added a lower profile Dust Stopper under my miter saw bench with a dedicated small shop vac and that works nice as well. I don't think it's as good as the Dust Deputy but good enough.
I've been using my shop vac in conjunction with my ROS for years and would never go back. Adding the little cyclone inline makes it more of a hassle to move around but keeps the shop vac bag from filling up, especially in conjunction with the track saw.
Enough fine dust will still get through to eventually plug your shop vac filter, which is why I like having the bag in the shop vac.
Alan

[alan gage]

About a year ago I added an Oneida Dust Deputy and was very surprised at how well it works for something that looks so cheesy. I use it in conjunction with my shop vac (with bag installed) for all my sanding and track saw usage.
I added a lower profile Dust Stopper under my miter saw bench with a dedicated small shop vac and that works nice as well. I don't think it's as good as the Dust Deputy but good enough.
I've been using my shop vac in conjunction with my ROS for years and would never go back. Adding the little cyclone inline makes it more of a hassle to move around but keeps the shop vac bag from filling up, especially in conjunction with the track saw.
Enough fine dust will still get through to eventually plug your shop vac filter, which is why I like having the bag in the shop vac.
Alan

Just a comment on how well just a basic shop vac connected to a ROS can do:
I'm sensitive to cedar dust and my nose will start to run almost immediately with any hand sanding or table saw cutting. But I used to build cedar strip canoes and it wasn't uncommon for me to spend 3 hours non-stop sanding a hull with my ROS connected to shop vac. I could do that with no respirator or mask and had no issue whatsoever. When done myself and my clothes would be clean and there was not sign of dust floating in the air. Not saying it's perfect but pretty darn good.
Alan

[ron barnes]

I believe that venting to the outside would be the best but I cannot do it.  I purchased an air filter from Grizzly and it has helped a lot with the fine dust.  I turn it on when I enter the shop and turn it onto a timer for a couple of hours when I leave the shop.  There doesn't seem to be anywhere near as much fine dust now.  Also I use a dust collector hooked to individual machines.

[farmfromkansas]

I have a Bosch ROS, bought the good anti vibration model, has both a 5 and 6" pad, and the dust port is just right for my vac to plug into.  Always use the vac when sanding, and it makes a huge difference.  Also have a belt sander that works with it, but have not used it since getting a wide belt sander. Hate to think how much I have in dust collection, considerable amount when you add up everything, but better than dusty lungs.  Be nice if YH would post the cost of his setup, blow your mind compared to a little old woodshop setup.

[YellowHammer]

Be nice if YH would post the cost of his setup, blow your mind compared to a little old woodshop setup.

$20K+ got the whole mess bought, shipped, assembled, installed and operational.  That includes concrete, footing, aftermarket high rise rack, stand, cyclone, clean out hopper, airlock, blower motor, switches, electrical panels, crate after crate of stainless snap lock ductwork, and a bunch of other stuff.  
That is not counting our labor, which would have been about a couple weeks, not including the initial design phase for the dust collector and the ductwork.  
It was not a real do it yourself project, but we got through it.  

[DR Buck]

I'm not a fan (no pun intended) of blowing my dust collector outside.   Yes, it makes cleanup/emptying easier, but it also blows my conditioned shop air outside.    I have year round heat and AC in my shop and at 750 to 1200 CFM I'm not going to try and condition outside air.    

Aside form the initial cost of around $2k for my collector I've gone the low budget route and it works well for my single person operation. 

[Walnut Beast]

Be nice if YH would post the cost of his setup, blow your mind compared to a little old woodshop setup.

$20K+ got the whole mess bought, shipped, assembled, installed and operational.  That includes concrete, footing, aftermarket high rise rack, stand, cyclone, clean out hopper, airlock, blower motor, switches, electrical panels, crate after crate of stainless snap lock ductwork, and a bunch of other stuff.  
That is not counting our labor, which would have been about a couple weeks, not including the initial design phase for the dust collector and the ductwork.  
It was not a real do it yourself project, but we got through it.  

Absolutely nice system and videos on it YH. If you want to do big boy things you got to spend some big boy money and you can make some big boy money 😜. No risk no goodies 😂

[trimguy]

For a one man show , do these systems have a cut off valve at each machine or are they sized large enough to constantly pull air from all machines ?

[YellowHammer]

Both, in that we sized it to pull air from all machines in each work location simultaneously, but all machines have blast gates.  There must be a certain amount of airflow constantly flowing to have the blower centrifuge and spin out the dust most efficiently.  Generally, this system needs at least a couple ports open at all times.  Most times, if we are working inside the shop, all the gates are open, so we don't have to mess with them.

We've tried several smaller systems, tried tying multiple systems together, and all became obsolete quickly as our demands grew. All became a pain to empty, and all took up significant or valuable inside space.  We would fill up a 55 gallon drum in few minutes from the big double sided 25 inch planer, or the sawmill, sometimes which are running both at the same time.  Remember, one of our first iterations was open blowing into a dump truck.  The best way to describe the flow would be a snowblower.        

Our biggest producing machines of sawdust are in non air conditioned spaces anyway, such as our sawmill, edger and planer.  Keeping the sawdust from my face and off the ground is the goal.

The key is that we don't really do "woodworking" in the shop anymore, it has become a "wood production" shop, and can easily generates a ton of chips a day.  

[DR Buck]

For a one man show , do these systems have a cut off valve at each machine or are they sized large enough to constantly pull air from all machines ?

In my one man shop all of the ports have blast gates.   Most of the time I have 2 or 3 open all at once and my system still works well.   The exception is when I run my planer I need to close them all except at the planer due to the large size and quantity of chips coming of.

[Andries]

 
My one person shop, showing five ports to different machines.
The best tips for a collection system came from a design guy at Blastgate in Detroit.
 * ducting should be like the fastest fast lane on a highway - smooth, straight and if there's a curve, it has to be long and gradual.
* a system's power is rated in cubic feet per minute. More is usually better.
* "drops" from the main trunk should be horizontal for at least a foot before taking a slow 90° turn down to a machine. 
* flex hose creates three times the flow resistance of a steel pipe.
* a cyclone achieves maximum efficiency with a long straight pipe feeding into it. Efficiency is more than 96% ( dust removed ) with a well designed system.

[Andries]

On the collector cyclone remote switch, there's a sticker. 
 
The motor is a Baldor industrial 3 hp. and like most big electrical motors, it generates its most heat when it's starting. 
Yellowhammer has a system that's perfect for lumber production in an open air scenario. Mine is made to keep the heated air in a shop while one guy (me) is noodling away on small woodworking projects. The jointer and planer will fill the dust bag in about 5 hours of work.
Small amounts of dust come from the table sander, router table and ROS.
That's when I the give the big yellow Gorilla a break and switch to this:

[Andries]

@SwampDonkey mentioned that he was looking at the Festool line of equipment and I have to say, it took me a lot of convincing to get off my wallet for that green color.
Now that I have spent the dough, well,  best decision ever! 
The combination of the big dust collector for keeping up with the big machines and the small quiet dust sucker for the detail work is really wonderfull.

[Andries]

At the bottom of the air filter is a 'dust cup'. I've filled the main 35 gallon dust bin at least ten or twelve times since the ductwork was installed. Hoever, at the end of all that plumbing, there's maybe 200 grams of dust in the dust cup when I took a curiosity peek a few days ago. So it seems to me that my do-it-yourself piping and collector project has worked out ok.
. 
Just might be an example of the power of following good advice . . .  this time. 😆

[YellowHammer]

Very nice setup.  

[Andries]

Thanks YH.
Someday, when both Canada and the US find a ' new normal' re the virus,  and the ground borders open again, I'd like to see your collector at work.

[SwampDonkey]

Thanks Andries, glad you're liking Festool. Lee Valley sells them and they stand behind what they sell.