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Author Topic: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit  (Read 1515 times)

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Offline Jim1934

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Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« on: July 07, 2021, 10:03:07 AM »
A Utuber described gluing the ball bearing for the motor output shaft
into its housing to cure a sloppy fit.

 I am inspecting a similar unit for use on circle sawmill carriage drive.
The unit is from a Cub Cadet 1650, new to me, and I dont know its history.
I can wiggle the now free end of the output shaft and I either have a destroyed
inner race or a sloppy fit of outer race in its cavity. Haven't got that far to choose.

Purpose of post is too see if either is common.
Seems there is a very small chance this was never a press fit for alignment
purposes but that is a stretch.

Thanks, Jim

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2021, 10:05:15 AM »
Let me go out and look at one.
Isaiah 48:10

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2021, 03:01:14 PM »
Im sorry for the delay jim.  


The sundstrand 15 i have sitting here apart is off a deere 140 so it may be completely different.  But the output shaft and bearing are a nice tappy tappy tight fit.
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2021, 09:11:48 PM »
Thanks- appreciate it. Hope $132 bearing is not shot. Perform autopsy tomorrow.

Offline Southside

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2021, 09:57:05 PM »
To answer your question about the glue.  Yes it is done with some high speed, press to fit, applications.  My moulder calls for use of Loctite bearing adhesive - I think 620 is the number but would have to check, and yes it works.  
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2021, 11:03:09 PM »
Mine has cylindrical roller bearings oriented axially around the shaft axis. Non tapered.


Is there a chance yours is tapered and shimmed to set the clearance space in a register or something like that? Sorta Timken style?
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2021, 03:38:07 PM »
Mine has cylindrical roller bearings oriented axially around the shaft axis. Non tapered.


Is there a chance yours is tapered and shimmed to set the clearance space in a register or something like that? Sorta Timken style?
Mine are rollers and the bearing is tight in its housing.
Don't know if tapered but going to leave it as is.
Knocked out all the seals. Trying to find hyd repair kit. Get
lots of 'out of stock' or 'obsolete' returns.
Thanks for the lead on bearing. I thought it was ball. Still have the wiggle in the free end of shaft.


Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2021, 07:59:50 PM »
Mike- Please help again.

My gas engine runs in a direction opposite to the rotation direction required
 by the Sundstrand U hydro unit on a 1650 Cub Cadet.

Can gear pump be "reversed', so to speak ?
How will that affect auxiliary hydraulic ports used for power lifting, etc.
Not exited about driving input shaft from its other end. Very short shaft extension.

Thanks, Jim.


Offline Jim1934

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Running Sundstrand U hydro gear pump in reverse
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2021, 09:15:11 PM »
Using tranny from Cub Cadet 1650 to power sawmill carriage.
Kohler gas engine to be used to turn Sundstrand U hydro gear pump
rotates in opposite direction to what is required.

What are issues created by running pump "backwards" ?
Can gear pump be turned upside down?
Will axle forward now be reverse?
Will aux. hyd. ports used for options be affected?
Not excited to drive opposite end of pump input shaft.

Thanks very much. Jim.


Offline mike_belben

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Re: Running Sundstrand U hydro gear pump in reverse
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2021, 09:59:24 PM »
I dont think theyre birotational inputs.  I have a feeling the charge pump will be trying to push fluid down into the sump.  


Drive it from the back where the fan stub is if you have no choice.  The axle shafts wont care which direction, just move the lever.  Theyre infinitely variable forward and reverse output.  Some garden tractors limited the reverse speed but its in the linkages for safety and can be removed.  The pump itself can output equal speed in both directions.  Bolens was limited reverse and ford fairway mowers also. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2021, 10:02:14 PM »
I replied to your other thread.  In the future please try to keep them all in one place.  People will follow a single build thread just fine.  If you need to get a specific persons attention just use the bat signal.  Put an @ sign in front of their screen name and the editor will pop up with the names in blue. theyll get paged to the thread when you get it right. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2021, 07:19:19 AM »
Jim a mod deleted your duplicate thread and moved my post here.  Lets keep it all in one spot from here out.  Lemme know if you run into any issues.
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2021, 06:20:38 PM »
Thanks Mike,
Have had the two halves of hyd. unit apart and back together twice. Did so to replace oil seals
and check overall condition.
Both times input shaft very hard to turn even with fastening bolts backed off 3/16 inches.
Guess I have assembled it incorrectly. Locating pins for the 3/16 round plates with all the slots
mate as they should. Roller bearing on input shaft free, as are needle bearings. Tried removing
gear pump cover and that didn't help.
Before I took it apart input shaft turned easily as one would expect. Tired of working on it,
will let it sit for a while. Will use input shaft stub if I get that far.


Offline DennisK

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2021, 08:53:28 PM »
You might need to make 2 precision ground shafts to align the pump together, usually go through opposing bolt holes.

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2021, 01:22:35 PM »
Put it together, ran gear pump input at 1000 rpm CCW facing pump shaft
Output pinion of motor does not turn.
Have oil at filter.
Disconnected the jumper from aux. in/out and no sign of oil. Replaced.
Tightened nuts on drain tube , gear pump, and those holding hydro halves together.
7qts oil. Type U hydro.
Cub Cadet 1650.
Guessing speed too slow or air lock.
Help please.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2021, 06:18:51 PM »




Does your pump look like this?
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2021, 08:03:46 PM »
yes

Offline DennisK

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2021, 08:15:34 PM »
Those 2 buttons look like they are depressed in the tow position. They might not get unstuck.

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2021, 09:16:59 PM »
Mine does not have the buttons. just tiny holes. Thanks

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2021, 09:52:02 PM »
Good eye. 

Thats my pump and its just for parts, i busted the output and bull gear.   Those tow valves will bypass fluid if theyre in the open position.  Next to them i have a square plug and a hex plug, there is a spring and ball in one of them to regulate charge pump PSI but i dont recall which.  I think the other port is for gauge tee to troubleshoot but its been a long time and my brain is foggy on all that. 


CCW looking at the shaft face is the correct rotation.  1000 rpm would be sufficient to creep the tractor along.  


Do you have hose fittings on the top front like mine?  I am assuming you still have the hystat in the rear axle housing for a fluid sump?  


You stroked the lever in the left to tilt the swash plate right?

Im not sure how different the exterior of a deere vs cub unit are.  
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2021, 09:45:11 AM »
 I have the complete banjo and axle assy.
I stroked the swash plate actuator.
I have the two hose fittings tied together with a hose. Is this a mistake?
  If lift cyl. and its valve were installed path would be blocked when cyl. at end of travel -correct?

One of the check valves has its ball bearing at the bottom
and I can move the ball against its spring via a rod thur the small hole in the bottom.

The other valve has the ball stuck at the top dead headed and cannot be moved.

There is oil on the valves. My valves do not have push buttons on the top.

Thanks, Jim

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2021, 03:06:01 PM »
I dont know what the banjo is.


The hose loop is fine, no you dont need a valve in there.  

My cartridge valves are different than yours so i dont really understand what youve got there.  I own a cub with same pump but its 990 miles away or id go llook for you.  Anything that seems stuck in there nedds to be freed up.

My first guess and hope, is the charge pump guts are too dry to lift fluid from the sump at that low rpm. Like those cheap hand crank barrel pumps.  They never lift oil out of a drum until you wet the pump gets, then theyre fine. 


 So wet your pump guts. Pull that loop hose and fill it with oil then try again.  If it still wont work, pull one end of the hose and get a pan to catch oil.  Run it and see if you are getting any flow.  I believe the passenger side (US based) fitting is the output.  It comes from the charge pump.  If its not flowing oil your charge pump cant supply your drive pump.  

Test that first.
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Old Greenhorn

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2021, 03:49:40 PM »
I dont know what the banjo is.

I always keep up by reading the 'most recent post' and scrolling through comments like this bring me up short every time and take me down the wrong road until I read a little further in.
 Mike, this is what a banjo looks like:


 
 As played by one of the best (Bill Keith).
 But perhaps that doesn't make sense to you because it is fully assembled and functional. So to put it in terms you might be more accustomed to, this is also a banjo:


 
 Sorry, I could not resist. You may now return to your serious technical discussion and I will shut up. :D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 450, 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I am the woodcutter now.
I can work with wood, but I am NOT a Woodworker, yet.

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2021, 04:37:19 PM »
When I was a child, 80 years ago, we called the banjo the nearly spherical cast
housing that connects all its internal gears to the inner ends of the two rear axles.
It looks like the round part of a banjo. Today I read case, carrier, rear end, differential.
Thanks for the humor. Jim

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2021, 05:43:14 PM »
Gotcha.  Newer slang for that is diff, chunk and pig. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2021, 09:29:27 AM »
Tried all Mike's suggestions with no cigar.
Removed charge pump casting, with shaft vertical, 
and it was wet but no oil filled the gap between adjacent gear teeth.
Outer gear 'stuck' to plate below, as one would hope.
Tried rotating casting 180 deg. but did not help.
Small gear is keyed to shaft as it should be.

So now I will change filter, double RPM, and make a sacrifice to the Cub gods.
Thinking about 'warming' stuck valve. Penetrants have not worked. May drill
1/16 hole thru existing hole in top hex nut for punch access.

Doubt if oil viscosity is the culprit.
Thanks to all. Jim.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2021, 09:41:29 AM »
Those big hex cartridges come out for replacement dont they?

If a tow valve is open i think its gonna allow the charge pump flow to bypass the high pressure section.  


Were there any valves or check balls inside when you took it apart?  Hydrostatic transmissions have replenishing devices and one way checks to swap out fluid and make it do the right stuff.  Any chance you lost or installed any of that wrong?
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2021, 05:53:06 PM »
Trying to upload pix of valves. Spent many hours.
Have had a gallery with pix for a long time.
Trying to add pix to gallery now not working like I think it should.
Service manual states the two are identical. Not mine
On one the ball is held up towards top via a spring.
On other the ball is held down by, apparently, a spring above it.
Tomorrow I will swap locations.
No guarantee these are the correct valves.
I have not modified them. Removed o ring from one in anticipation of heat.
 

 

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2021, 08:57:11 PM »
I really dont know the answer.  


I think i would run the input with a drill and no valve cartridges in place to see if oil is coming up to them.  Thatd atleast tell us if the charge pump is picking up or not.  Maybe spin it both directions. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2021, 09:19:41 PM »
Trying to upload pix of valves. Spent many hours.
Have had a gallery with pix for a long time.
Trying to add pix to gallery now not working like I think it should.
Service manual states the two are identical. Not mine
On one the ball is held up towards top via a spring.
On other the ball is held down by, apparently, a spring above it.
Tomorrow I will swap locations.
No guarantee these are the correct valves.
I have not modified them. Removed o ring from one in anticipation of heat.
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Took valve apart.
There is only one ball.
I am now calling the hex end in pix "down" or "bottom".
R.H. valve is defective. Spring loaded actuating rod in bottom of valve was corroded ,
stuck down, and could never push the ball upward away from its seat. Ball in R.H. pix is 
sitting on its seat which is below it.
Short weak spring above ball opposes the other spring.
Will repair and see if that is the solution. Have not tried your, Mike's, last suggestion-yet.
Regards. Jim

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2021, 12:02:31 PM »
Replaced one valve which was stuck corroded..
Now unit will run but in only one direction. Progress.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2021, 12:57:54 PM »
Swap valve cartridge positions and see if you get a corresponding swapped direction. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2021, 05:12:22 PM »
Would like to but after sitting 4 hours it won't run in either direction.
Thanks for responding.

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2021, 12:32:54 PM »
I dont know what the banjo is.


The hose loop is fine, no you dont need a valve in there.  

My cartridge valves are different than yours so i dont really understand what youve got there.  I own a cub with same pump but its 990 miles away or id go llook for you.  Anything that seems stuck in there nedds to be freed up.

My first guess and hope, is the charge pump guts are too dry to lift fluid from the sump at that low rpm. Like those cheap hand crank barrel pumps.  They never lift oil out of a drum until you wet the pump gets, then theyre fine.


 So wet your pump guts. Pull that loop hose and fill it with oil then try again.  If it still wont work, pull one end of the hose and get a pan to catch oil.  Run it and see if you are getting any flow.  I believe the passenger side (US based) fitting is the output.  It comes from the charge pump.  If its not flowing oil your charge pump cant supply your drive pump.  

Test that first.

Aug 11 Noon.
Did the above a few days ago.
Removed both valves, ran charge pump and oil came out the top of one. Reversed dir of charge pump and oil came out of the other. Wary of the loop to aux. ports. Jim

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2021, 04:56:54 PM »
Quote
Aug 11 Noon.
Did the above a few days ago.
Removed both valves, ran charge pump and oil came out the top of one. Reversed dir of charge pump and oil came out of the other. Wary of the loop to aux. ports. Jim
Well thats good news with respect to your charge pump charging and your swash plate swashing. 

If this fluid flow from the charge pump to the drive pump can now be directed to a load (the drive motor)  and maintain pressure (by not having any relief cartridge problems that allow leakage back to tank) then you should be in business.  

In between the valve positions are some pipe ports facing the sky.  One is the charge pump regulating valve.  Just a little BB or pellet with a spring. Have you been in there?  If one of those is stuck open or pitted real bad the charge flow will have a path to tank and wont pressurize the drive pump.  

I believe for the circuit to work you are going to have to take that flow out of the passenger side jic fitting and loop it back into the driver side fitting.  You wont need a hydraulic valve in it. 
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2021, 08:54:44 PM »
Have not been in those cavities plugged with hex socket heads. Will do so.
Loop (open) always installed. Did try closing it with C clamp but no difference.
To repeat- won't run in either direction regardless of swash plate movement or gear
pump rotation dir.

If that fails I will probably open the two main valves for inspection.
May destroy them buy that is ok. I tried repairing one by soft soldering
bottom can on with a Certainium alloy, 5x strength of normal solder and a
melting point of 420F. I was not careful with alignment but joint was ok.
I am aware of repair services. Thanks, Jim

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2021, 08:39:43 PM »
Google this up. 

sm2093 (Jul-73).pdf

Its a manual for the JD140 that i have.  My phone is too low on memory to go finding the section but its a big file and should have a good theory of operations abd troubleshooting section on the sunstrand 15 pump
Isaiah 48:10

Offline Jim1934

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2021, 08:15:20 PM »
Google this up.

sm2093 (Jul-73).pdf

Its a manual for the JD140 that i have.  My phone is too low on memory to go finding the section but its a big file and should have a good theory of operations abd troubleshooting section on the sunstrand 15 pump
Thanks. Will do so.
Internet been down for four days.
Removed 1/8 pipe plugs and nothing in cavities but oil.
Removed plug with 5/8 hex, also between main valves ,and  it contains a spring and short rod but no ball.
However  it looks obvious that the conical shaped end of the rod rod is pushed into a mating shaped hole by the spring
to accomplish the same thing.
Unit will only run in one direction and then only by one combination of the two main valves.
So far it will only run in one direction of gear pump. CCW looking into pump from normal drive side.
Conclude at least one valve is defective. It will only run when an original valve is nearest the flow
control handle. Used one I purchased is in the other spot. The letter "P" is stamped by valve nearest
flow control lever.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Sloppy fit of output bearing Sundstrand Hyd. unit
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2021, 08:34:47 PM »
Without having known good cartridge relief valves, its hard to say whether they are the issue or something inside didnt go back together right.  Ive never been in one and cant be of any help there.  But i hope that manual has something inside thatll help. 

The spring and little plug valve should be doing the same thing.. I cant honestly remember if mine was a BB or something else.  I know i had to try many springs in mine to add on the aux high pressure pump fed by the charge pump.  I kept blowing out the front seal on the addon pump, until i got that circuit down to about 10psi with a pen spring.  Nothing to do with your setup.  You want 500-700 i that circuit if i remember right. 

The empty ports are for pressure gauges.  A good next step for you in my opinion. 
Isaiah 48:10


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Started by Patrick NC on General Board

4 Replies
181 Views
Last post February 07, 2021, 07:28:59 PM
by hopm
xx
Fixing sloppy joinery

Started by TFwannabe on Timber Framing/Log construction

6 Replies
947 Views
Last post September 20, 2018, 01:01:27 PM
by Jim_Rogers
xx
Sloppy yoke or runny eggs?

Started by sandersen on Forestry and Logging

15 Replies
1396 Views
Last post March 24, 2017, 06:53:15 PM
by sandersen
 


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