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How to grow a Wilson Spruce from seeds

Started by Cynthia Moore, January 31, 2022, 05:49:00 PM

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Cynthia Moore

Hello,

I am new here. I hope I posted this in the right place.

My grandson and I are trying to grow a Wilson Spruce from seeds. He lives in a wooded area on 6 acres, so the tree could be planted in his yard, but the main reason is that we wanted to use it to make a time lapse video. 

We planted the seeds several weeks ago (12/11/21). It's in a large Tupperware bowl. Following the instructions with the seeds, we soaked it overnight in a glass of water, then we covered it with about 1/4" dirt and gave it a good soaking. I set up a camera and have been taking several photos every day.

We used dirt from his yard, so a lot of native ground cover has sprouted, but no spruce. I've watered it every 3-4 days to keep the dirt moist as instructed.

I uploaded several photos to my gallery in an album named Wilson Spruce. I am not sure how to "attach it" to this post or make it viewable.

Thanks for any help.

-cm

thecfarm

On posting pictures, simple, should be a blue box that reads,Click here to add Photos to post at the bottom of the post you are working on. Follow direction when you click onto that. 
Good luck with the growing!!
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Cynthia Moore

Quote from: thecfarm on January 31, 2022, 08:55:39 PM
On posting pictures, simple, should be a blue box that reads,Click here to add Photos to post at the bottom of the post you are working on. Follow direction when you click onto that.
Good luck with the growing!!
Yes, I saw that button, but it looked like I would have to upload the photos again and to a gallery.
I already have 8 photos in my gallery named Wilson Spruce. Is there a way I can make that gallery available to anyone?

thecfarm

Sorry!!! Told you wrong.
@Cynthia Moore 
 
Click onto that blue box again.
Click onto My Gallery, upper right, click whatever album you want, you may have to scroll down for your albums, this will open that album, then click onto a picture you want to post, then there should be a box that says, click here to put image in post.





I like to hit the enter key a couple times to bring the picture down away from the text, as I did. 
You can hit the preview button to see how it looks. 
This picture is rocks that I am hauling into a wet hole. That is a yellow yard stick. No more mud for me!!
Jeff, The Boss here, wants us to only use pictures that we post, He don't want us to load a bunch of pictures into the gallery and say, go to my gallery to see the pictures.
I have many albums. I find it easier to have separate ones so I can find pictures easier. 
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

SwampDonkey

@Cynthia Moore 

There should be a link on the left hand column at the bottom of sponsors links 'Gallery', click that. Then in the new tab or window there is 'My Gallery' on the top row. Then you see your images. Click on any of them and near the bottom is a BBCode you can copy then paste into your open tab with the post you began.


[img]https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/69342/DSCN0576.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1643668643[/img]

shows your photo once you preview or post

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

SwampDonkey

Your soil should be loamy and dark like out in the woods under the leaves and moss in those top few inches of undisturbed soil with humous mixed in with mineral soil. Were your seeds cold stratified by the seed company? They would have been properly stored after harvesting I'm sure. Any indication of when they were harvested? Seed viability declines with age and storage environment. Something harvested within 2 years of planting should be fine, if they were stored well. Try an inexpensive grow light, although window lighting should be just fine for germination, they will end up reaching for light and be week once they emerge. It may take 2-3 weeks to see any sign of life.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Cynthia Moore

Quote from: thecfarm on February 01, 2022, 05:45:28 AM
Sorry!!! Told you wrong.
@Cynthia Moore

Click onto that blue box again.
Click onto My Gallery, upper right, click whatever album you want, you may have to scroll down for your albums, this will open that album, then click onto a picture you want to post, then there should be a box that says, click here to put image in post.
Ok, here goes....
This one is right after it was planted (12/11/21)


 
This one is after 10 days (12/22/21)


 
This one is after 20 days (1/01/22)


 
This one is after 30 days (1/11/22)


 
This one is after 40 days (1/22/22)


 
And this one is from 49 days (1/29/22)


 
So far no sign of the spruce tree. 😥
Quote from: thecfarm on February 01, 2022, 05:45:28 AMJeff, The Boss here, wants us to only use pictures that we post, He don't want us to load a bunch of pictures into the gallery and say, go to my gallery to see the pictures.
Yeah, I found his tutorial where it says that. Seems odd to me.

Cynthia Moore

Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 01, 2022, 06:14:51 AM
Your soil should be loamy and dark like out in the woods under the leaves and moss in those top few inches of undisturbed soil with humous mixed in with mineral soil.
We used some soil from his yard out under a bunch of pine trees. I didn't add anything. As you can see, it's pretty dark.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 01, 2022, 06:14:51 AMWere your seeds cold stratified by the seed company? They would have been properly stored after harvesting I'm sure.
I have no idea. I got them as a present from my alma mater, an agricultural college, after I made a donation.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 01, 2022, 06:14:51 AMAny indication of when they were harvested? Seed viability declines with age and storage environment. Something harvested within 2 years of planting should be fine, if they were stored well.
No idea. I tossed the package they were sent in. I guess I should have kept it. 🤔 The actual seeds were inside something the shape of a little pine tree. It was made of a soft, sponge-like material that the package said would be good for the seeds. It said to plant the whole thing, which I did.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 01, 2022, 06:14:51 AMTry an inexpensive grow light, although window lighting should be just fine for germination, they will end up reaching for light and be week once they emerge.
They get a lot of light from that southern exposure window. The ground cover tracks the sun across the sky.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 01, 2022, 06:14:51 AMIt may take 2-3 weeks to see any sign of life.
It's been over 6 weeks (1/11/21 to 1/31/22). The package said it could take about 6 weeks. That's also what several websites say it takes a Wilson Spruce to "germinate". Does germinate mean break through the soil or just start to come out of the seed shell?
I think I'll wait another week or two and then dig up the seeds to see what's going on. If I do and the seeds are actually starting to grow, can I return them to the soil?
Thanks

SwampDonkey

Sponge probably kept them moist a little. You can disturb them if they are not damaged. One other thing is depth in the soil, they don't need to be more than 1/2" down.

Wild white spruce here, similar looking to your Chinese Wilson's spruce from what I gather, take 2-3 weeks to germinate. They need cool stratification, like in the fridge compartment, not freezer. For 4 weeks or germination is less successful or spotty.

Your soil looks quite course and stony. Those should go to the bottom of the pot like they are in natural soil. The good loam and humous is on the top layer of soil.

You don't want to leave the seeds in any packaging when planting, some stuff roots can't get though.

Seed stratification and soil prep info for Wilson's spruce, picea wilsonii
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Cynthia Moore

Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 01, 2022, 10:56:56 AM
Sponge probably kept them moist a little. You can disturb them if they are not damaged. One other thing is depth in the soil, they don't need to be more than 1/2" down.
The package I received said 1/4", which is what we did.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 01, 2022, 10:56:56 AMWild white spruce here, similar looking to your Chinese Wilson's spruce from what I gather, take 2-3 weeks to germinate. They need cool stratification, like in the fridge compartment, not freezer. For 4 weeks or germination is less successful or spotty.
I did not do any cool stratification as that was not mentioned in the instructions that came with the seeds.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 01, 2022, 10:56:56 AMYour soil looks quite course and stony. Those should go to the bottom of the pot like they are in natural soil. The good loam and humous is on the top layer of soil.

You don't want to leave the seeds in any packaging when planting, some stuff roots can't get though.

Seed stratification and soil prep info for Wilson's spruce, picea wilsonii
The soil is very rocky. I actually removed a lot of rocks before planting. But it's that way all over their yard and they have huge pine trees everywhere, so I figured it was OK.
That link says to soak them for 24 hours, which is what my instructions said. I got busy with other things and soaked them a little longer, maybe 48 hours. I guess that could be the problem. It said to drain off all the water so they don't get waterlogged. Mine didn't say that, so I just planted the dripping wet sponge packing.
Thanks for that link. We are going to visit the grandkids this week. If nothing emerges by then, he and I will dig it up carefully and check it. If it's growing, we'll carefully put it back. If not, we'll order more seeds from this link and follow their directions.
It says to keep the seedlings free of competing weeds. Do you think those grasses are a problem? Should I remove them?
Thanks

SwampDonkey

The weeds will rob water and food when they start growing. The weeds roots are going to take over the dish before long. Good starter soil from the store will eliminate the weed problem if you should have to start anew.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Cynthia Moore

OK, will do.

I used native soil, rather than starter soil, and left the weeds go because I figured that this is what these seeds have to deal with in the wild, so they ought to be able to handle -- might even prefer it.

Roxie

Welcome to the forum Cynthia!  

Please keep us posted on your little seeds progress. We're all pulling for the lil guys. 
Say when

Cynthia Moore

Quote from: Roxie on February 01, 2022, 02:13:34 PM
Welcome to the forum Cynthia!  

Please keep us posted on your little seeds progress. We're all pulling for the lil guys.
Will do, thanks

thecfarm

There!!! You done good.
He don't want someone, members, just to load a bunch of pictures into their gallery. He has to pay for storage. 
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Cynthia Moore

Quote from: thecfarm on February 01, 2022, 05:57:36 PM
There!!! You done good.
He don't want someone, members, just to load a bunch of pictures into their gallery. He has to pay for storage.
Sure, I understand. But I don't see how this policy saves storage. It might even increase storage. When I attach a photo from my gallery, is that another copy or just a pointer to the one in the gallery?
I follow a lot of forums. Most of them allow images to be attached to posts. Some limit the size and number in each post. Some delete them after a period of time.
Others require them to be on the web and only post links. This website is really good at that.

https://postimages.org/

I can upload my image there and post just a link here, like this:

https://i.postimg.cc/4xTDZ4G6/Natural-Selection-for-Brain-cells.jpg

or this:

https://i.postimg.cc/d0VStLxy/Friends-of-Irony-Hell-Frozen-Over.jpg

It looks like links are not active on this board, at least not in Preview mode. Correction, they are active once the post is posted. In the boards that use this, I think they actually retrieve the photos so they show up when reading the thread. But they take up very little storage. 😃

Another solution would be to limit the amount of storage each member can have. That limit could increase as the member is more active. Or members can buy "Pro" memberships that allow for more photos to be uploaded.

SwampDonkey

Cynthia, the photos must be stored here because we have been online for a long time and many off site storage sites have gone by-by over the years. This leaves a lot of posts at risk of loosing a big part of their narrative because the photo is gone and just a big grey space remains. Have you not seen 'this content is unavailable right now' on Facebook in posts? Someone or entity removed the image and the text is explaining something not seen anymore. Other than these reasons, the owner here has given you privileges to share your experiences and photos with us but like any guest in the house, there are rules for all to follow and remain welcome. On site photos just happens to be one of the rules. It is simple as is, no need to increase complexity for the guy behind the forum. :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ianab

I get the idea of trying to use local soil, but I wonder what the germination rate is for seeds naturally dropped on it? 

If it's one out of 100, that's fine because the tree dropped 100,000 seeds. 
And if only 1 in 100 of the seedlings survive, that's fine too, because that's 10 saplings, every year. Soon you have a small forest.  

But if you are planting seeds, getting 1 in 10,000 success rate would be pretty discouraging. 

This page talks about Spruce in general, and goes over the stratification. That simulates the seeds being frozen over winter, then absorbing moisture and germinating once the weather warms up. Once you have persuaded them to sprout, then you can pot them out to grow. You want to give them Better than the natural conditions, so you get a higher success rate, and the seedlings grow faster. 

http://forestry.alaska.gov/Assets/pdfs/community/publications/spruceseed.pdf
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Cynthia Moore

Quote from: Ianab on February 01, 2022, 07:50:28 PM
I get the idea of trying to use local soil, but I wonder what the germination rate is for seeds naturally dropped on it?

If it's one out of 100, that's fine because the tree dropped 100,000 seeds.
And if only 1 in 100 of the seedlings survive, that's fine too, because that's 10 saplings, every year. Soon you have a small forest.  

But if you are planting seeds, getting 1 in 10,000 success rate would be pretty discouraging.

This page talks about Spruce in general, and goes over the stratification. That simulates the seeds being frozen over winter, then absorbing moisture and germinating once the weather warms up. Once you have persuaded them to sprout, then you can pot them out to grow. You want to give them Better than the natural conditions, so you get a higher success rate, and the seedlings grow faster.

http://forestry.alaska.gov/Assets/pdfs/community/publications/spruceseed.pdf
This is extremely helpful and makes a lot of sense. In fact, it makes so much sense that I am kicking myself for not thinking about it. 😣😥 Of course the natural habitat is a difficult place for seeds. And of course the tree expects most (almost all) of the seeds to fail.

My plan now, when I am with my grandson later this week, is to carefully dig up the seeds we planted to see if there is any life. If not, I'll order some new seeds and some potting soil and do it right.

On the bright side, this is a great learning experience for him. We can talk about nature and odds and probability and how the world works. And I can still make a time lapse movie of the weeds growing. 😅😉

Thank you for putting my head back on straight.

Cynthia Moore

We just put the grandkids to bed. We had a fun evening. I talked to him about the help I received here on growing seeds. We decided to remove the grasses and then carefully check the seed. The grasses came up easily and had very small roots, so I doubt that they affected the spruce seed at all.

Then we carefully cut away the dirt over the seed. The cover it came in that I was to plant it in was pretty much decomposed, but no sign of any seed germination. I think my mistake was that I soaked it too long before planting. The instructions said 24 hours, but I got distracted and it soaked for about 48 hours. That and the veryt adverse odds of a single seed germinating.

We decided that I would order more seeds and follow the instructions above for planting with potting soil. And we'll plant more than 1!

And I'll look into ideal trees for his growing zone (9a). The ideal zone for the Wilson Spruce is 4b, which is a little higher and a little colder.

On the fun side, I found that the iPhone, and his iPad, has a time lapse app built in. And it's pretty cool. It starts off taking 2 shots/second. If the time exceeds 10 minutes, it cuts the frame rate in half (to 1/second) and deletes every other frame of those previous shot. If it goes another 10 minutes, it halves and deletes again. 

I found a 30-minute YouTube real time video of clouds. I set up my phone to shoot it using the time lapse app. The result was great. Now he is interested in time lapse photography, so I'll get new seeds and a trail camera or a different app for his iPad and go at it again.

Again, thanks for all the help.


SwampDonkey

Yes, typically spruce do not like hot climate, this is why they grow well in the PNW in the cool wet belt and across Canada, since we are the frozen north. :D

Have a look at the USDA website(s) and see which species do well in your area. We have some exceptional tree species right here, no need to plant non natives. ;)

This link will show the range of the species and some info about their habitat. ;)

Silvics Manual Volume 1-Conifers and Volume 2-Hardwoods
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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