Worst tree form

[nativewolf]

I thought a thread re the worst of the worst might be interesting.  I'll do a best of the best later as well.

We've been scouring around the mid atlantic for a partner to help us work on hardwood forest genetics and nursery stock.  More on that in another thread as well.  So anyway, we are looking at an awful lot of trees and sometimes you just find a tree that you say..boy that one should get culled asap.  

The first I'll post is a WO on my own farm.  It is a cross a stream without a crossing so i need to solve that before we cut it so the firewood doesn't go to waste because it's going to break records for firewood.  My internet is just terrible so I'll hold off on the pic to tomorrow but if anyone has a good tree or two lets see the worst of the worst.  

[longtime lurker]

Rancher type I used to work for way back when used to say that (talking about cows) "90% of good genetics was what went down its throat", which is to say that environmental considerations like weather conditions, nutritional plane, age at weaning, parasites etc would have a greater impact on carcass quality then who it's father was.
Smart guy, good operator, knew his stuff.

I think trees are pretty much the same... soil nutrients, soil type, moisture profile during critical growth phases, cold snaps or droughts during formative years, the presence of competition to make the sapling chase light rather than branch early, the lack of competition for available resources, site exposure to wind, hurricanes or tornadoes or wildfires... you give the best seedstock the worst start and it's going to make an ugly tree, or vice versa.

Which is not to say I don't think genetics are important, but I don't think looking at a good tree is necessarily an indication of better genetics. For some of them just surviving could well mean it's superior.

But I got some photos for ya, when I've got time to dig them out.

[Walnut Beast]

Great thread. Looking forward to some interesting pictures 👍

[wisconsitom]

@ longtime lurker, great point.  I agree completely.  It's genotype//phenotype.

I always look at the world as a default mechanism.  It's not what could happen, or not that alone.  It's also what is allowed to happen by other factors.  More that actually.👍

[Roundhouse]

Interesting topic. I've got a picture. This is the first tree that came to mind right away as soon as I read this post. 

I'm not sure what causes this sort of mis-shape to a tree, looks like there could have been a blow-down across it years ago that has since fallen and rotted away. It arches out and over the driveway of my new camp. It would have been at the top of my cull right now list if not for a couple other factors. I was racing the calendar last fall when I moved the cabin in here. I took out a bunch of "threatening" trees and cleaned them up. As ugly as this one is it didn't threaten the building site and I would be able to take it down later. It will probably come down this summer. If I had power out here I could hang a yard light from it!

[longtime lurker]

One man's trash is another man's treasure... You see useless log with a major bend in 'im... I see natural bent bows. 

I don't know species there but here - in the right species - I'd chase that log for boat building timbers, even that tightly radiused curve which is perfect for knees.

[mjeselskis]

I think these two siblings were fighting for the sunny side.

[Roundhouse]

One man's trash is another man's treasure... You see useless log with a major bend in 'im... I see natural bent bows.

I don't know species there but here - in the right species - I'd chase that log for boat building timbers, even that tightly radiused curve which is perfect for knees.

Hmmm, good point. I just may have to see if this fits on my mill. I could see a nice set of footbridge timbers coming out of this. I believe it's birch, not all that weatherproof but if treated properly and sheltered by decking it could work.

[nativewolf]

Rancher type I used to work for way back when used to say that (talking about cows) "90% of good genetics was what went down its throat", which is to say that environmental considerations like weather conditions, nutritional plane, age at weaning, parasites etc would have a greater impact on carcass quality then who it's father was.
Smart guy, good operator, knew his stuff.

I think trees are pretty much the same... soil nutrients, soil type, moisture profile during critical growth phases, cold snaps or droughts during formative years, the presence of competition to make the sapling chase light rather than branch early, the lack of competition for available resources, site exposure to wind, hurricanes or tornadoes or wildfires... you give the best seedstock the worst start and it's going to make an ugly tree, or vice versa.

Which is not to say I don't think genetics are important, but I don't think looking at a good tree is necessarily an indication of better genetics. For some of them just surviving could well mean it's superior.

But I got some photos for ya, when I've got time to dig them out.

Some of that might be true but we've proved the opposite with pine and euc genetic improvement programs.  Take lob pine genetics and tree improvement. The improved plantations of today grow nothing like the native stands.  Management has done a lot too but @wdh and others can attest, genetics played a big role.  The branches have better stem angles, they grow faster in the early part of the season, etc etc.  I wouldn't say management is responsible for 90% of growth improvements.  Maybe Danny  will correct me.

[WDH]

It is a tough question to deal with.  Nature versus nuture. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture

A real rabbit hole for sure.  With some things, there is evidence that genetics play a huge role, like in plant breeding.  Who can dispute that crop yields are significantly improved over historical performance even 100 years ago.  I have seen it first hand in lobllloy pine in intensively managed plantations.  The genetically improved stock outperforms unimproved stock as there is much research to attest to that. 

But in people?  I have certainly met people who needed better breeding and some that did not ever need to breed at all  .  That has not been the case for trees, at least not to this point.  

[nativewolf]

 



So this is my first picture.  It's a white oak.  In this species we want a tight crown, self pruning branches, branches at 90 degrees, a small buttress.  There are some other phenotypes but that's what we want to start (like more acorns and other things but measuring that is difficult).  

This tree had it all, didn't self prune, branches up like a broomstick, and some buttress- not actually the worst buttress.  But anyway, I don't want this tree providing acorns for my clients properties.  The sad and funny thing is it is on my own.  I need to get that bridge going.  When we thing this little 20 acre woodlot it will meet a firewood pile.  

[mike_belben]

i suspect it was once a beautiful pasture tree.  

[nativewolf]

Mike I love trees.  I mean...I like them more than many people.  I have some great old field trees that have had to reach for the sun.  This isn't one of them.  I have  a 50" CO that is just a sight, I have a 60" SRO that is quite the tree.  Then there is this thing that won't shed and has a limb every foot and now is broomsticking it up.  

Even years ago the branch angle wasn't 90.  It had too many limbs.  It is ugly but I'll save the good trees for another thread.  I have a black walnut witch tree if I can get to it..spookiest tree i own.  

[nativewolf]

It pine improvement one of the big changes they have made is the branch angle, FYI.  In nature many branches would not be at 90 degrees to the trunk so the knots would be longer and deeper.  Smaller limbs with branch angles at 90 was a big improvement.  Helps pines shed and self prune faster and keeps energy going to the crown.

[mike_belben]

i found out recently fruit trees with a horizontal or downward slope (mimicking a branch heavy with fruit is the guess) do not sucker any more. i guess when the tree knows it is heavy with fruit it can stop trying to be so vegetative, content in its reproduction.   

so the ones under my care have been pruned to retain any low angle branches.  im eager to watch that unfold.  the shoots i brought home are all flowering in a bucket of water right now to see which will root for transplant. 

[47sawdust]

By and large I am much more at ease with trees than people. Thanks for starting this thread.Much more fun than the "worst person " thread which probably would end up in the wood shed of all places.

[woodroe]

Here is one of my bigger pasture pines gone wild. Probably 3' dia and 100' tall.
Got another dozen 75' pines similar and taken down probably a dozen or more over the years but have no plans for cutting the one in the picture.
Lots of firewood in one of these multi top trees.

[nativewolf]

i found out recently fruit trees with a horizontal or downward slope (mimicking a branch heavy with fruit is the guess) do not sucker any more. i guess when the tree knows it is heavy with fruit it can stop trying to be so vegetative, content in its reproduction.  

so the ones under my care have been pruned to retain any low angle branches.  im eager to watch that unfold.  the shoots i brought home are all flowering in a bucket of water right now to see which will root for transplant.

That's neat mike, I didn't know that and I'm curious if it is the same with WO?  That would explain a lot actually. 

[mike_belben]

Im not certain. 

I think it was poplar, sourwood and black gum that sprouted the most vertical suckers out of the main stem most prolifically, headed straight up as new leaders, when a young main stem is pinned or hinge cut.   Like a tomato plant.    

[wisconsitom]

One thing to know about trees-their vertically oriented parts are growing faster than their horizontally oriented.  Otherwise, they'd be groundcovers😄.

Orchardist routinely prune for horizontal orientation, for branch union strength, sunlight on ripening fruit, and relative ease of picking.  Since suckering is heaviest right after pruning, maybe after a decade or so of setting the tree up this way, the big suckering days are long ago.  I only did tree work for 40 years, so maybe I'm wrong, but never in my born days did I hear that one.  Probably just old trees that haven't needed much pruning recently is my bet.  Hence, few suckers.

[mike_belben]

:shrug: 

Dunno tom. Learned it from some old orchard tender on youtube who kept a few trees with vertical branching to show the constant suckering.  The rest of his had downsloped branches that he just didnt need to prune.  His explanation was the tree knows when its heavy with fruit by the bending limb and then stops trying to grow vegetatively and puts its energy into reproduction.  Ive seen others tying their limbs back to their trunks for the same effect. 

Didnt seem like bunk to me.  Maybe look into it.

[wisconsitom]

What we call suckers are just new branches.  Prune a young-ish tree with normal average vigor and it will respond by making new branches-suckers.

I'm looking at my 20-yr old crab out the window.  I did tiny-and I mean tiny-bits of pruning on it, about a month ago.  Yes, mostly a few suckers, coming from last year's pruning cuts locations.  There ain't anything more to it.  A crab is, of course, an apple tree, but really, maples, ash, most any broadleaf behaves similarly.  

If a tree is left alone long enough, there won't be much for suckers.

All this said, I'm not an orchardist and it's not a burning issue with me, plus sometimes folks do something that helps, but misidentify the reason why it has helped.

  Finally, I can't vouch for something going on on some video, where I have no idea of the history behind what's being presented.

[nativewolf]

:shrug:

Dunno tom. Learned it from some old orchard tender on youtube who kept a few trees with vertical branching to show the constant suckering.  The rest of his had downsloped branches that he just didnt need to prune.  His explanation was the tree knows when its heavy with fruit by the bending limb and then stops trying to grow vegetatively and puts its energy into reproduction.  Ive seen others tying their limbs back to their trunks for the same effect.

Didnt seem like bunk to me.  Maybe look into it.

Science has shown that stressed trees also respond with epicormic budding.  We also know that trees with too much sun/heat respond by the buds exploding through the bark and forming a branch.  Certainly branches that slope downward would reduce this issue and keep the trunk cooler especially in the summer.  

[beenthere]

Years and years (back to orchards established in the 40's) of pruning family orchard trees in the midwest (7-40 acre orchards) and the rule every spring before bud break was to prune everything new that grew "straight up and straight down". 
Took care of the annual sucker growth and kept the horizontal limbs in shape for easy easier picking and better fruit production. 

Sometimes hard to see that over a short period of time. 

[Hogdaddy]

 

.   Actually on one of my farms, pretty good size ash