lumber prices

[Porta mill]

I am milling some lumber for a customer and i am wondering what the going rate  ?board foot today i am supplying the logs i do not know it it matters but i am located in northeast PA

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Oh, yes indeed!  It does matter where you are.

Your local competition is going to set the basic rate "climate" so to speak.
You can deliberately choose to buck the general rates, but you will have to
provide a reason, or risk losing a lot of work.


Sawing their logs:
In my area there is one guy cutting at $175 per thousand.  I told him the
other day that he was the lowest I know of in middle Georgia - too low.
My most recent sizeable customer job was at $245/Mbd.ft., but he needed
22ft. stuff.  Since I can set up at his site and cut that long, that is not so bad.
He saved hauling cost, but it cost me to travel to that site.  Fortunately, I can
use the travel for not  only getting my two guys to the site, but also to get
me to the area to do my piano service work.  Please note that I charged extra
for the helper I brought -just passed on that hourly cost in this instance.  The
customer handled stacking the logs on the deck which entailed an hour of
work by them a few times.

I don't think I am high, but in reality I am on the high edge here.   There are
bandmillers in the $200 range in several counties near mine.

Sawing my logs for them:
I sold some air dried full cut 2X6 to a construction company who had to have
them now and had to have full size last week for about .60 per ft.  He also bought
beams at .90 per ft.  (6X10X17')

Keep in mind that, unless you are selling an unusual service or dimension,  the
lumber suppliers will be coming in at under .50 per ft. on most common dimension
framing lumber!
Phil L.

[Dave Shepard]

I don't know how someone can make a living and pay bills at such low prices, especially sawing on site. Even a high capacity circular mill has a much larger overhead to go with that capacity. I haven't heard any recent custom rates for my area, but I doubt anyone, if there is anyone still doing it, that is under $.35/ft. There  is one guy offering custom work on a WM manual @$85/hr. That would be about $.85/ft.


Dave

[customsawyer]

This goes back to that same old thing. It all depends on what you do on site. Three years ago when I was still doing the portable work I was charrging .25 /bf  and this was 3 years ago I would hate to be trying to make it at that price now with fuel $1.50 a gallon more then it was then.
Now when I went to the site I took the mill, tractor, hired help and all the beans. Now if you don't have to bring your own help and tractor than you might be able to do it cheaper.   
By the way I live in the same area as Phil.

[Ron Wenrich]

Species matter.   We're doing hemlock for around 50-60˘ and oak for 70-90˘.  I have sawn some specialty items for as high as $5.  So, it also matters what size stuff you're cutting and what the specs are.

When we saw for customers, we don't give them grade lumber unless its specified.  If they want clear wood, then the prices have to go up.  Pieces that require a bunch of handling will cause the price to go up. 

[beav39]

HERE IN MAINE IM SAWING FOR 230 PER THOU. FOR SOFT WOOD AND 255 PER THOU FOR HARDWOOD ,OTHERS AROUND HERE ARE  ABOUT THE SAME.WHEN SELLING ALL SOFT WOOD LOG RUN ,NO GRADING IS 55CT,BDFT PRICE ON HARDWOOD DEPENDS ON SPECEIS AND GRADE           SCOT

[John Bartley]

With apologies to PortaMill because we've sort of detoured your thread....

When I bought my mill I did a bit of pre-purchase costing to see what it would cost to run for a 4000 hour life. I included basic maintenance, normal repairs, an engine at 2000 hours, gas, oil, filters, and band purchase/sharpening. I did my costing based on all the information I could gather from forums like this one (I am a complete newbie at milling, but not at running a business). I know that I was a bit conservative, and my figures were skewed to the worst scenario, but I came up with a cost per hour to turn the mill key at $25.00 per hour, and that doesn't include transportation costs, vehicle repair costs or extra labour when needed.

Assuming an average portable mill can cut 200 feet per hour and you charge $0.25/ft, then before vehicle costs you're left with a net profit (very crudely calculated I know) before taxes of $25/hour. For all the work you do, the hard work, the lack of pension, the damage to your body etc.. $25/hr is NOT enough. I don't see why we, as self employed businessmen shouldn't make just as good a living as any other person who has to know all the things we know and do all the things we can do.

*** dream alert here !! ***  Wouldn't it be nice if we all tried to base our pricing on based on what we need to get to make a comfortable, secure living with a retirement fund, ... instead of what the cheapest person on the block is charging??

sorry ... I'm off the soap box now...

John

cheers eh?

[BandsawWarrior]

I can't believe some of the prices I'm reading for custom cutting.  How do people pay bills at $200/1000bf

There is one thing I have learned over the last couple years....when pricing your lumber or hourly rate DON'T BE THE CHEAPEST! 

Instead of charging what everyone else is charging charge more!  And why would someone pay you more?  Very simple because quality costs money.  When we fill an order I know every single piece is sound.  Every single timber is 4 square.  And we deliver on time.  We keep our wood clean and out of the sun.  We even run sand paper over any dirty spots or lose fibers.  We focus on quality and  our loyal customers know when they order from us exactly what they'll be getting. 
With this level of quality price is never an issue.  We charge what we need to in order to make a profit.

Just my thoughts 

As a note the cheapest guy in our area charges $65/hour to bring his mill to your logs. 
We charge $90/hour if you bring your logs to us.  This is for 2 guys our mill and tractor. 

   

 

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

I went back and added a note or two to my entry on this thread.
There were two worthwhile details regarding the recent job at $245/M:
Charged extra for the help I brought.  Also, the customer did the log
stacking with their loader.  A couple of days when we were cutting
exclusively 2X8X22', I brought two helpers and passed that cost on.
That was the agreement - that I would only use one helper most of the
time.   The customer knew what to expect and was happy with that.

PHil L.

[ARKANSAWYER]

  I custom saw for $250 mbdft and they bring their logs to me now.  I sell lumber like SYP for $500mbdft and mill run oak for $600 mbdft.  Longer lengths past 16 ft cost more for every couple feet till you get to 32 ft.  Pine I buy for $50 a ton and oak for $45 a ton.

  Yes some of us can work dirt cheap because we live in dirt poor places.  Poor people have poor ways.

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

Psst,  ARKY!
 
(Don't let anybody know that 'cause they will want us to do it even cheaper!)
 
PHil L.

[ladylake]

Thats right make a big difference where you live, lots of Amish mills around here.  Arky when you pay $40 or $50 a ton how much is that a bf?     Steve

[fencerowphil (Phil L.)]

A 20" SYP log weighs about a ton at 16' long.

If you pay $50 for that ton and get 250 bd. ft. from it,
that is about twenty cents per bd. ft.  To do that it takes
a decent log.   A really nice log will get you 30 to 50 extra
feet, bringing you down a few cents per bd. ft. on your cost.

[sunriseseamless]

I'm in a totally different business, but maybe my two cents will make some sense anyway.
Anytime a product or service gets standardized to a point of uniformity, it becomes a commodity.   1 bushel of corn is the same as any other, so a standard price per bushel makes sense.  It's the free market at work.  Those who farm more efficiently can squeeze more profit out of each bushel, and those who can't make a profit at standard prices better find a new career.
The third option is to take the standardization factor away.  Our corn farmer could start farming sweet corn, or pop corn, or exotic Indian corn - crops that aren't commodities.  Now the value of his product is more negotiable, and he can get realize a better profit margin.
Move our analogy to the small sawmill and see what happens.  2X4 SPF is a commodity.  I don't see how any of you could compete with the big guys here.  Instead, specialize in the unusual- extra wide, extra-long, extra something.  I don't know enough about sawyering yet to fill in the blanks, but find a niche, one that no body else is filling.
And don't forget quality.  As Bandsawwarrior says, do the extra little things to build quality into your product, and don't try to be the cheapest guy around.
In my business, (seamless eavestrough), I started off competing on price, but over the years kept adding quality to my product - heavy duty hangers, stainless steel screws, quality work force.  Any thing that would set me apart from the competition.  People are willing to pay for quality, but they have to know that they are still getting a good value.  
Unless you're just a start up, never be the lowest price, but be ready to explain why you aren't.
with inflation, that might just be two nickels worth

[beav39]

i have to agree with arky ,in my neck of the woods people are poor ,im one of the higher priced guys around here,so if i want to stay busy and pay the bills and feed the kids i have to stay in a range close to others.one advantage i have is that ive been sawing for quite awhile so people know my product and are willing to pay a little more to me then the other guy.niche markets are the best

[brdmkr]

I don't mill for a living, but if I cut for someone, I try to make enough to make it worth my time.  What I find most amazing is that most of the people who want me to saw for them have SYP.   In fact, with one exception, I have never sawn anything else for a customer.  I charge the same per bdft for 1x 2x etc.  What do you suppose all of these guys want me to focus on when sawing the SYP?.......... 2x4s and 2x6s!  The cheapest lumber they could possibly buy in a store.  Granted, the grade is higher, but still!  I have even TRIED to talk some customers into 1x material even though it would cut into my profits.  Still, they want framing lumber   Go figure!

[ARKANSAWYER]

  They say (US Goberment) that there is 1,000 bdft of lumber per 8 tons of logs.  So that is what the rate is based on.  That would make it so that there was 125 bdft per ton.  I get closer to 250 to 275 bdft per ton.  I figure my price of $0.20 bdft for pine and about $0.18 for oak.  I pay $350 mbdft if I scale oak on Doyle.  Got to know the numbers.

[Russ]

Anybody who has had to buy a 2X4 at the box store lumber yards knows the value of a true dimension piece of lumber. What I've seen at these lumber yards can't compare to our lumber. Its hard to find good stuff in the racks. Folks that try our lumber don't go back to the box store unless they have to. I think thats why folks are asking for 2X4's from us. I went without a sawmill for a few years and I really missed the good lumber ! The point I'm trying to make is our product is better , and its worth more if you can get it.

[Dave Shepard]

I've been sawing 2x hemlock all week. Nice stuff, don't know what it's worth, though. DanG heavy too!


Dave

[ARKANSAWYER]

 I can not compete with the store on 2x4's but can beat their price on any thing else.  But once  a customer comes in and looks they start buying they keep comming back.  I have a high repeat customer base.
  The higher fuel gets the more it cost to haul their stuff in from Canada so my prices can come up.  I was in HomeDepot the other day and they had lumber from Sweden on the shelf.  Just can nost see  how you can cut and dry a board and move it 4,000 miles  and sell it for much profit.  Did not think things were that cheap over there.  Must be the EURO is so much stronger then the dollar?

[Ron Wenrich]

Yes, the Euro is strong.  Right now it takes about $1.54 to buy a Euro.  Our gas is expensive, not theirs.  If we were on par with the Euro, our $3.75 gas would be $2.43.

They've been bringing in European wood for quite awhile.  It has to do with the tariff that has been placed on the big Canadian mills that were exporting to the US.  They can buy European wood and send it in without having any tariffs, and still make money.  I'm thinking they sell their excess to Europe. 

Shipping is not a problem.  We send ships over to Europe with goods, like veneer logs.  They don't want to bring the ships back empty.  So, they fill it up with lumber.

That's what the Chinese are doing right now.  They bring in shiploads of goods, then buy container cars of raw materials, like logs, lumber, steel, and copper.  We had a few guys come in looking for logs and were looking for 50 containers/month of raw materials.  Their prices are better than what we can get if we saw them up.   

[Bibbyman]

Our local markets are soft.  Orders smaller and longer between orders. 

Also we’ve got one customer that wants to buy,  but they just don’t want to pay.  We’re only extending them small amounts at a time until they pay for what we’ve delivered then we send them more.  Basically, they’re using our money to keep going.  We’re not playing those games.  We expect to pay for what we buy and we expect them to do the same.

We have had a couple of odd calls from companies out of state wanting hardwood blocking.  The latest call was from Ohio. The quantities and items they want are not something we can provide.  I’m just wondering if the hardwood mill(s) in their area have shut down or are having trouble getting logs. They must be desperate if they’re hunting hard enough to find us.

[Ron Wenrich]

I thought that by now, we would be seeing a downturn in business.  But, that's not the case for us.  We're still at the stage where we can call up a buyer and sell several trailerloads of wood.  Blocking prices are still good, ties are moving, and we just got an order for several trailerloads of 8x8x16 blocking.  I cut one load out of tulip poplar.  Price was so good that I didn't have to worry about leaving grade on the piece.

I sawed 2 trailerloads of F1F and better tulip poplar grade this week.  Last week I was sawing 8/4 ash, and 4/4 white oak.  Next week I'm back on red oak.  The price isn't as good on the red oak, but its starting to come back.

When the saw guy comes around, he tells me that some mills can't move wood.  I haven't found that problem.  It must be who you're dealing with.

[Cedarman]

The news media has got everyone thinking we are the edge of a depression and in reality we have not yet had the first down quarter in our economy.  My phone is ringing off the hook, so demand for our products are still strong.  Demand for mulch in Ok is fantastic.  1/3 goes into the oil industry so that helps.

There is a downturn in the sawmill industry, but it has always been cyclic.
The US dollar going down makes foreign stuff more expensive for us and it makes our logs and lumber cheaper for them.  So, lets ship overseas.

I still see logs moving down the road, but not as much as usual.
If the government will let us inovative Americans do our job, we will get things figured out.

[woodmills1]

cedarman I like your thinking.

[Ron Wenrich]

You never see logs that are in containers.  We do several loads a month.