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Canadian Timberland?

Started by luke, June 17, 2004, 09:15:07 PM

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luke

Hello to everyone,
 
I know that some of the forum members are in Canada. I am wondering what Canadian timberland sells for, dollars per acre. In addition, approximate property taxes; and does the Canadian government support forest programs.
 
 Any insight on the Canadian timberland subject will be appreciated.
 
Thank you,
 
Luke






Checking into grade sawing, building a dry kiln and moulding machines.

Percy

Hey Luke.
Im no expert on this but will give it a go. Here in British Columbia, forestry is governed by the province(state?) and not federally. Large lumber companies have  a TFL(tree farm licence). This is located on government land(not private land). They(large companies) pay a minimal stumpage rate for logging these areas. They are heavily regulated by the M.O.F.(Ministry Of Forests) and have to build, maintain road infrasrtucture, reforest logged areas,  along with stand tending reforested areas till they are mature, provide jobs etc. For small time logggers, there is B.C. Timber sales. This is where the government trys to get the maximum buck for the taxpayers timber by bidding wars amonst loggers. They determin market value for the logs and try to estimate logging costs and make the stumpage rate(upset as they call it) the market value minus the logging costs. Its a tuff racket.  

The lumber wars our two countries are  currently having deal more with the large TFL's and not the little guys. As I said earlier, I am no expert so correct me anyone if you please.
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Ron Wenrich

Why worry about Canadian land?  I know guys that have bought land in New Jersey for cheaper than timber values.

Most realtors don't have a clue when it comes to selling woodland.  They refuse to do timber inventories and appraisals and think all woodland is created equal.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Kevin

The Ontario Government is selling entire townships to logging companies now.
It's their land now, not just the timber rights.

SwampDonkey

Realtors have the same attitude up here Ron. They tack $50/acre for clearcuts and in reality the only land for that price is poor wetlands. Good growing ground sells from $200 to $350 acre without mature trees. For land with standing timber it sells for $600 to $1500 per acre. But there are some old folks that would sell for half that or less. Just a few days ago I heard of a man with 450 acres who sold it to a lumber company for $100,000, his grandson found out and nearly had a stroke. ;) My uncle had a piece of land (100 acres) he was going to give away for $5000 10 years ago and I said what centery are you in? I convinced him to ask for $50,000, he got it. His brother had a 50 acre lot , asking $25,000 and grandfather and his brother called him crazy. He got his price too. Geesh these old timers and their archaic mind set.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Bruce_A


SwampDonkey

Its all in the mind set Bruce_A  ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Percy

QuoteThe Ontario Government is selling entire townships to logging companies now.
It's their land now, not just the timber rights.

Whoooboy, I didnt know that!! To the best of my knowledge, they arnt doing that here yet. There have been the typical 'Log it and flog it" type companies around here buying land outright but the size of the land parcel is usually very small. Is a township is 4 sections Kevin?? I forgot all that stuff
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

beenthere

In the states,  a township is 36 sections (or 6 mi x 6 mi). Not sure if that system translates the same in CANADA
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Kevin

Perc;
I don't think too many people are aware of what's going on!

The red line is 5k x 5k.
The blue line is one township.


SwampDonkey

Kevin, I know what ya mean. Government , provincial or local are usually quite secretive about such transactions. This is how alot of the New Brunswick railway lands were sold for $0.50/acre to a large forest company in this province. No one else had a chance to even bid on it for fair market prices.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Percy

Beenthere/Kevin
Thanks for the info. Meby you can help with this SwampDonkey? Is there an advantage for a large forest company to own the land they are logging as compared to a cutting licence?? If they are irresponsible and the land looks like  Armageddon, they wont be able to sell it and the taxes would be an unrecoverable cost. How does it work in the U.S.?? Anyone??........
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

SwampDonkey

Big companies here buy up land usually under priced, they don't pay top dollar for it. Just try to sell to them for top dollar and see who bites. ;)

The advantage of having their own timber land comes into play when there are 3 sources of timber. 1) Crown, 2) Freehold Industrial, and 3) small private woodlots. The cheapest source being freehold, then crown, then private. In New Brunswick about 40 % of the timber land is in small woodlots, 20% is Freehold and 40 % Crown. When the Crown lands and forest act came into being the primary source of supply was to be from private woodlots before crown. Because of the lower stumpage for the crown wood paid by Licensee mills, it was making it unfair for private producers to supply wood at a higher cost. But, when the companies were forced to take less crown they would dibble into their own freehold wood to circumvent the higher priced private wood. Back in the late sixties and early seventies marketing boards were being organized to negotiate fair market prices for privately produced wood because companies were price fixing and paying below the price of production. Mills were getting crown wood for practically nothing because there was an oversupply of overmature wood falling down (mostly softwoods, hardwood was worthless). Up untill 10 years ago there was also a bit of chaos on Crown lands because the companies never knew if the government would realocate a part of their license to another entity. There was one license that had all its holdings taken by the government , like pulling the rug out from under it. So, the companies where not as willing to do silviculture on land they had no guaranteed access to in the future. They concentrated more on their own land holdings with silviculture untill 10 years ago when government changed the rules abit and removed primary source of supply from private woodlots and also handed management of crown to mills with lincenses on Crown, who had to now produce and submit 25 year Plans updated every 5 years. Now the provincial government subsidizes silviculture costs on Crown and Small private woodlots. Lets face it the government can't loose on subsidizing the woodlands since they get way more income tax off the harvest then they pay out in subsidy and it brings more fibre into production sooner and creates seasonal jobs. You can't really call this kind of subsidy a free handout. Land taxes though on woodland are insignificant, I'm only assessed at $27.00 for 70 acres of woodland. Did you know that the people employed by the Crown licensed mills pay almost twice as much tax as the mill owners? I know one pulp mill where the unionized employees are paying about $200,000 income tax, CPP and EI deductions per week. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

luke

The prices that I heard are similar to the prices here in the U.S. I know that Fountain Forestry has 18,000 acres of timberland for sale in New York for $300.00 an acre. I have seen other big tracts of timberland sold for about $400-500 an acre. Sounds like it might be a wise idea to get advice from a lawyer that knows about international real estate and timberland laws. Here in WV there are no forest programs that I know of. I see people in Michagan using forwarders to skid pulp wood, and to help in managing their timberland. I wonder if the state of Michigan is reimbursting the people with paid forest management programs. I have never seen a forwarder in use in WV. Of course the taxes are cheap on WV timberland, I would have to think that Michigans taxes must be much higher. On 292 acres of WV timberland the taxes are about $300.00 a year.

Thanks for the insight everyone.

Luke
Checking into grade sawing, building a dry kiln and moulding machines.

SwampDonkey

Luke there is a pamphlet on my website about Woodlots under the federal income tax act.

Here is the link.  PDF file 217 Kb
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Furby

Luke, those prices you talked about for New York, that was ONLY as one big lot, right ???

Ron Wenrich

The reason you haven't seen a forwarder in WV is because the terrain is a lot different than in MI.  There aren't that many in PA, unless you get up on the plateau, and then they are limited.

The smaller the woodlot, the higher the per acre value.  There is a limited market for large woodlots.  Smaller can appeal to a larger buying audience.

Do you know if the land was cutover?  A lot of times they are gutted and resold.  I even saw some that were gutted, busted up into smaller lots and sold as vacation lots.

Bare land value = Land cost - timber value.  If you don't have the timber value, you will never be able to figure out the bare land value.  Its the only thing you can use to compare apples with apples.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

I'll second that notion.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

luke

Why can't you bulldoze logging roads and then bring the forwarders in to help manage the timberland? Skid and or winch the trees to a flat area and then pick them up with a forwarder.

We looked at a 400,000 board foot tract of timber that fountain forestry had for sale here in WV. My dad, and a good logging friend who has logged, sawmilled and bought timber for 25 years, and I drove to the property and looked at the timber very quickly, we never seen the trees that were numbered, and our logging friend said from the trees he has seen, theres no timber there, mostly small timber, would be good for a skagg mill he said. He is use to 3' and 4' dia. oak trees. Anyways they wanted $50,000.00 for 400,000 board feet on the stump timber only land not included. Him being a experienced man we took his advice and forgot about it. Thats all that it took for us to believe, was the few words he said. ;)

This is a picture of our logging friends truck. The dirt road is on our property 292 acres of timberland. He's got some big tires and a big lift kit on that duramax chevy truck. Nice picture.


www.fountainforestry.com/ - 11k

Luke
Checking into grade sawing, building a dry kiln and moulding machines.

SwampDonkey

Yup, they use forwards on big hills here, can't really call'm mountains because they are mostly under 500 meters (1600 feet) ASL. And most are rounded and smoothed by glaciers. But, they used to have those monster Koering feller forwards here, up and down them hillsides strip'n hardwood like harvesting corn. They were practically condemned by the public here and I can't find a single website showing them. There is one however at the lumberman's museum near Boistown,NB. Most forwarders here now are operated on the lowlands, or in conjuction with feller buncher,grapple or cable skidder on the hills, some even with high lead cable logging at lower down slope landings.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

oakiemac

I was looking at some Canadian land in southern Ontario. Seemed a real decent price at about $400-500/acre. The description said land was covered in mostly hardwoods, mainly Poplar. Is that tulip Poplar (yellow Poplar) or is that a different species they are referring to?
I ended up giving up on the idea because I think the hassle of bringing logs/lumber/sawmill back and forth across the border would be too great.
Mobile Demension sawmill, Bobcat 873 loader, 3 dry kilns and a long "to do" list.

SwampDonkey

oakiemac:

At that price in southern Ontario they would have to be 20 year old aspen from clearcuts, not mature tolerant hardwoods (maple, yellow birch, oak, ash, hickory). Probably 3 to 6 inch at dbh.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

Luke

When you take things to a flat, that's called a landing.  Why would you want to go to the trouble of handling logs again?  You might as well bring in a triaxle and haul them to the mill.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SwampDonkey

You might have misinterpreted Luke for a moment there Ron. Sometimes on steaper sections you use a long line from a skidder to yard up or down to a bench in the terrain, then forward the wood to the loading yard which may be quite a distance away from some of the harvesting. I know some folks have skidded for over 800 meters to yards, but that's kind of excessive and doesn't pay the motor-manual crew to good. Some companies are restricted in building roads based on the percentage of the cut block they occupy, and if there are excessive roads they have to go back and deactivate them back to productive land. I know its crazy, especially if you have to do tending, monitoring and silviculture, but that's politics.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Frickman

We run a cable skidder and then a forwarder to get logs out of the deep woods. Right now I'm over one mile back in, close to one and a half.

Ron some of us have to do this in rough terrain. Here in the western part of the state you'd tear up a truck in a week's time, if you could get it back in. It's that rough in places. I've tried to truck out and couldn't, so I went to a forwarder. Where I'm at now is almost too rough for it. It doesn't touch every piece of wood we cut, just the stuff that's way back in.

Incidentally, the further you get back in, the less low-grade wood you bring out. Just like helicopter logging, it comes down to basic economics. Currently I'm bringing out nothing less than a number 3 sawlog, and alot of those are staying in the woods. All the pulpwood and firewood is being left too. I figure that if that fiber came out of the ground, it can go back into the ground.

I know guys who have skidded oak and cherry well over a mile. The forwarder seems to work better in keeping the logs clean and not tearing up the ground.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

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