Tree farmer 1972

coxy · November 03, 2015, 05:54:22 PM

are you shur you don't want to go on a road trip to my house and get these axle housings they are complete ready to bolt in ;D

crazy4saws · November 03, 2015, 10:15:35 PM

To be honest Coxy I figured you were only joking and heck maybe you still are! I'm indeed interested in your offer. I feel it's only right to pay you for what I take though. I know I can rent a truck for a day with unlimited miles for $70, and than whatever gas is. It's more than likely a 12 hour drive one way but it would be worth it! Let me know and I'll PM u!

Frenchy7527 · November 04, 2015, 01:22:22 PM

Does any one know why the winch control on my C6 won't push down to release position unless we bleed the lines then soon as you winch the cable in it won't go down again . As long as you don't winch in it works . Got me baffled

crazy4saws · November 04, 2015, 10:25:25 PM

Here are few pics I got of the diff assembly in Michigan. I think it looks good via the pictures. They said the bearings and seals are all good. Wish I had the money, I would simply buy the entire axle. but $2200 is too much. Ill stick with $900.

bushmechanic · November 08, 2015, 11:51:22 AM

$900 is a good price for that complete 3rd member, I doubt that you would be able to buy just the crown and pinion for that price. Make sure it came out of a skidder so that you would have the non-spin in the center as opposed to a truck one with just the spyder gears. 5/39 is a common ratio as was used in a lot of Tree Farmers, Timberjacks, Garrets and more.

crazy4saws · November 25, 2015, 08:18:23 PM

Been busy cutting wood and doing side jobs that I havent had much free time for the skidder.

Moved the axle inside for repairs this winter.

Received the new 5-36 center from Michigan. Looks good, everything seems tight. the on the left is the damaged center.

Removed the planetary assembly from the right side.

The bearing races have moisture/rust pittings so Ill be replacing all of those.
Just a few pics of the axle shaft and planetary hub.

Here is planetary housing. The second picture shows a side view of where the seal rides. From previous reading I thought this axle had a wet bath seal not a typical rubber lip seal??? Anyways back to the second pic, you can see two small ridges on the higher center circle. Is this normal or is this caused by the seal rubbing on the housing due to normal wear and tear?

I contacted axle tech, the company that took over rockwell planetary division. Ive sent them various numbers Ive found all over the axle and plenty of pictures. According to them they cant figure out what axle it is or what manual I should use as a reference to rebuild this thing. Seems strange to me.

I believe the "craddle" on a skidder is in the front and allows the axle to pivot back and fort? Over the weekend I check them since the axle isnt on. They both have play so I guess thats next. Are these pins the same as the center pins?

Coxy has offered me a pair of 5-30 PR67 off one of his older skiddesr for a bargain. been kicking around the idea of putting a 67 on the back and leave a 52 in the front, like GA Jones setup. Gonna try and make it out to New York within a month to get them.

Ive spent a good amount of time tring to find a manual for this C4B, but the pickings are slim. I read that Franklin Factory closed in 2008, did their retail store in North Carolina close aswell? Places like Davco do not seem too keen on selling a manual at this point.

Hope you all enjoy a fantastic Thanksgiving with your families.
Chase

C5C Tree Farmer · November 25, 2015, 09:44:49 PM

Quote from: Frenchy7527 on November 04, 2015, 01:22:22 PM
Does any one know why the winch control on my C6 won't push down to release position unless we bleed the lines then soon as you winch the cable in it won't go down again . As long as you don't winch in it works . Got me baffled

I don't wish to derail this thread subject but thought I'd answer this question that was asked.
Frenchy...It sounds like the piston retaining ring fell out on the brake release cylinder side of the winch control. When this happens the brass piston comes part way out of the bore and the cylinder overfills. When the pressure is reapplied with the control handle the piston cocks in the bore instead sliding in. When you bled the fluid off this allowed the piston to re-enter the bore far enough to slide again. To fix it you will have to drain the control and and remove the brake side cylinder assembly. The repair procedure may be a simple as re-installing the snap ring.

ga jones · November 26, 2015, 11:11:52 AM

Did you get the new seal yet? You will see it rides in the groove. There really isn't much a manual can tell you that somebody here can't.its a fairly easy system. How about pics of the spider and bronze pins and planet gears

crazy4saws · November 26, 2015, 03:37:58 PM

I havent ordered any parts yet for the axle. Im going to call a few places and get some quotes.
Heres some pictures of the spider plate, pins, and gears.

Its good to know that the seal sits in that grove. Should only need to order a both bearings on each side and new seal.

I searched the forum for PR52 info. Most of the time its related to repairs on the pins and spider plate, not actual info on the planetary itself such as things to check or look for, to proper assembly and so forth. Thats why I figured it would help to have the manual.

Im still not sure what version of the warner T98 I have. There are 3 styles, ford trucks, IH and Jeep. There are minor differences between the 3. My guess is its the ford truck version. Golden rule, davco, and scheaffers said they couldnt help with a rebuild kit.

This is the rear PR52 oil drain plug, or whats left of it. The square head was badly mauled so I attempted to use an easy out which left me with this larger hole as it pulled itself through the plug instead of turning it out. I was able to drain the oil out thru the hole and it looks fairly clean.

this bearing assembly that supports the rear drive shaft needed its bearings replaced.

Buying the new bearing insert was around$200 so..

found this bearing assembly at work with the same ID as the old bearing but the mounting holes were to close and the height was 1/4 lower. So I made this adapted plate and milled out the sides on the bolt holes. Its primitive but should do fine.

Im going to post a few videos of the play in the cradle, the planetary ring gear(or crown gear) and the movement in the rear axle so I can get the expert advice on whether or not I should worry about it.

Anyone on here have experience with welding on hardened shafts? My plan was to weld on a few of my transfer case shafts as the new bearings simply slide on by hand or are lose fit. I was told this week by a co worker that welding on a hardened shaft will not work. I dont see why it wouldnt but want to see what you all think. Yes speedy sleeves would work but I think this will result in a longer lasting repair, pus save me some money.
As always looking for input from you guys.
Thanks

crazy4saws · November 26, 2015, 04:34:51 PM

https://youtu.be/6UAzb9dqjX4
https://youtu.be/3zOmL_ogSug
https://youtu.be/t1lPhejrmyY

North River Energy · November 26, 2015, 05:07:56 PM

It might be an illusion (second video), but it looks like the pinion bearing has way too much clearance.
As to the shaft wear, do you have anyone local that does spray welding? There may also be a 'liquid metal' on the market that you could cold cure, and then turn to size.
(Have heard of, but not used products from this company)
http://www.belzona.com/en/products/purpose/metal-repair.aspx

coxy · November 26, 2015, 06:34:17 PM

jmop I would not worry about that little play in the first video second video looks like the same play I have is it right trobly not ;D 3rd video I have no clue don't own a skidder with front end pivet

ga jones · November 26, 2015, 10:03:32 PM

The play in the first video is normal for that age. The second video is ok too. Don't forget you have many more moving parts than in a standard axle. The cradle should be rebushed.. There is a bearing just like your center section only larger. If the play gets much worse it wil bend the front driveshaft.....

ga jones · November 26, 2015, 10:09:38 PM

How much play do the sun gears have on the bronze pins? If it's minimal and they weren't leaking oil through the spider then there ok.

ga jones · November 26, 2015, 10:15:52 PM

The transmission is from an early 60s ford truck..

ga jones · November 26, 2015, 10:24:02 PM

E-bay has the rebuild kit and input shaft and cluster gear for the transmission

crazy4saws · November 27, 2015, 08:41:11 PM

Heres a link for the play in the bronze pins or sun gears. I figured it was acceptable but let me know what u guys think.
https://youtu.be/WC8dSXw1ydI

Hey Gerald, after you said the T98 was the ford version I just purchased the rebuild kit thru Novak. It's pricier but it also looks like it has all the parts included that some of the kits don't have. I appreciate the input from everyone.

NRE- that u link u posted is interesting. I'm not ruling that out yet either. I watched video demonstration on utube and it seems very easy and straight forward. Also read more into shaft repair in a machinist forum. The pros to using the belzona seem high. I like the fact that heat treatment is done once cured.

Anyone else every tried this stuff? More or less an epocixy liquid metal for lack of a better term.

Btw Gerald I see your point on repairing the cradle bushing, good thoughts.

Tomorrow I'm removing the hub and seal assembly. I'm only doing one side at a time just in case. Once this side is done I'll pull apart the other side.

Any opinions on switching out the PR52 to PR 67 on the rear? Pros might be a stronger rear end that won't breakdown due to over loading??? Cons could be parts avaiblity?

Thanks guys

road_monkey · November 28, 2015, 09:56:38 AM

I just did wheel bearings and seals all the way around my timberjack. everything was available locally from truck parts stores, but expensive. ( bearings $95 and $129, races $75 and $95) I typed the Timken numbers into ebay, found everything I needed except seals. the most I paid for anything off ebay was $65. my brgs were 48190 (hardest one to get), 52400, races:48120, 52618. seals were B370063BG ($55). good luck

bushmechanic · November 29, 2015, 06:55:59 AM

Good to see the progress is still coming. I noticed you said your new 5/36 rear end but that should be 5/39, a misprint on your part I hope. If you have a 5/36 then that's 7.2 ratio and your 5/39 is 7.8 ratio so what I'm getting at is that is two completely odd diff's. Mix those up and for sure one will be toast in no time. That pic of your hub shows where the seal rides is badly worn you will need to fill that in and re-machine it, I'm sure tantoy had a good idea on how to do it cheap with a bit of bronze and ingenuity.

theonlybull · December 14, 2015, 03:56:02 PM

as for welding on hardened shafts. do the bearings run directly on the shaft, or do they have an inner race that slides onto it? if they have a race, i like to grind the shaft down a little bit, then put a layer of brass on it (braze it). if the bearing runs right on the shaft, then i'll grind the shaft down, and put a layer of sellite on with o/a, then grind to size with a tool post grinder.

i find the o/a welding doesn't hurt the temper in the shaft as bad, and if it does, it doesn't make a brittle spot at the edge of the weld like arc welding.

crazy4saws · December 27, 2015, 01:00:27 PM

#1 Roadmonkey: I aggree with you on purchasing parts off ebay. Your seals are different from mine. The bearings with race range about $35 to $55 timken brand each and the axle seal is under $10 each both with free shipping. Im going to try a few local bearing houses but doubt they will beat the price.

#2 Bushmachanic: you are correct my center sections are 5/39 ratio, the ones I hope to pick up from Coxy are 5/30 ratio. My plan is to put a 5/39 center in one of them and install on the rear. So Ill have PR67 in the back and PR52 in the front both with 5/39 ratio. I spoke with Tantoy about the repairs to the spindle sleeve where the seal rides. While JB would work Im going to weld them up and turn them down. Got a price from Davco on the spindle seal, only $28 which isnt bad.

#theonlybull: thanks for your input, yes some of the areas that need built up do have bearings riding on them, others have a seal. I hadnt thought about removing additional material before building up. Is the sellite you mentioned like belzona NRE spoke of? for lack of a better term its epoxy applied to the shaft than machined down to proper spec, no heat treatment is needed?

Made some progress over the Christmas weekend but could use some input

These two pictures show the left and right hub on my axle. Look closely you will notice the 1st has a smaller diameter center hole than the 2nd. The hubs are not the same. I believe the 2nd is the correct hub as it has a seal pressed into center hole to ride on axle shaft. The 1st hub could be machined to the same diameter and shoulder depth to access the axle seal. Thoughts???

After cleaning both hubs I noticed that 1/4 of the splines on each hub had deep rust pitting. Maybe from water getting into the planetary system and sitting for 10 years? Should both hubs be replaced or use them as they are? No other parts in the planetary group show these signs.

Removed the cradle and pins. Having never worked on heavy equipment like this the pins look to be in usable shape. The play seems to be coming from the bushings

Front pin and bushing

Rear pin and bushing

Crack line on self aligning bushing? both bushings have this crack but its not a straight line, more jagged and offset, is this normal for the self aligning bushings or is it damaged?

Crude washers/shims used on the front and back pins. Most post on FF mention brass shims not welded up steel plates.

Removed the 3-53 yesterday so the front cradle pin could be removed. Could have removed the oil drain pan instead but since Im this far a complete tear down, painting and reassemble makes sense.

Autocar · December 27, 2015, 01:17:29 PM

Interesting read , your going the whole way and my hats off to you . A fellow sure can learn alot tearing a peace of equipment down and puting it back togather 8)