OldJarheads Milling Thread...

[WV Sawmiller]

Eric,

   I don't understand observation #4 about the 1.5"?

[WV Sawmiller]

   I was a software implementer for our companies maintenance management software for several years. I'd sit with the customers core group and go over options and help them decide how they wanted to set it up. (Things like Priority 1,3 or 3 or High, Medium or Low). Once we did that I would go train their users.

  One of the techniques I used was to deliberately show them how to make a mistake (Enter a wrong code or send to the wrong approver, etc.) then show them how to fix it. I felt it was a confidence builder to know that there was no mistake they could make with the system that they could not fix because it was going to happen and there was no reason to hide or deny it.

   That may not be true when sawing because if we screw up a log all we can do is salvage the best we can but we learn not to do it on the next one.

[OlJarhead]

Eric,

  I don't understand observation #4 about the 1.5"?

Go to the center of the log, check the height with the mill scale, come back and drop 1.5" and go.
I was taught that here years ago.  The idea was that you spend very little time choosing the opening face vs. the guy who's measuring the pith and small end diameter and where it sits after lifting and then starting from a calculation they make from that.
I learned (from someone here but cant recall whom) to just take the ave of the log (height at centerish) and come back and drop 1.5" (or less or more depending on bark thickness etc) and start opening the log there (you can see me doing it in videos that go back years now -- like this one from 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXbZ2V4rhcU
In those days I was told the first face should be opened to leave enough of a 'face' to make a board out of it.  By doing this method you've pretty much always got that.

[barbender]

I sight my logs with the dragback and blade, with 2 points of reference it becomes similar to a gunsite. However, I'm not good to within 1" on a 20' log like Peter. I don't trust myself so I'll walk down and measure with a tape. A low tech idea I had for more accuracy was an inch scale at the end of the mill. Say your at 20" on your mill scale, sight the blade to the 20" mark at the far end and you'd know exactly where you'd be at.

[WV Sawmiller]

Eric,

   I know I'm dense at times but I guess I'm not following the rationale to find the center then go to the top of the log and come down 1.5". ??? Whey not just start 1.5" from the top of the log?

   If I want to make a certain size cant or beam I will go to the center then come up half the thickness of the planned cant/beam and saw to that point saving any usable flitches I can use then flip 180 and start so I end on the cant/beam thickness.

[OlJarhead]

Using a laser will fix all that me thinks...when you can see it.

The thing is, using the 1.5" method has worked well for me and I understand it well enough to adjust it.  It's faster than other methods I think; other than the first where you are measuring the pith, but then you are going to raise or lower the pith on one end most times so no, it's faster.

1. Center Pith
2. Run down to the middle of the log, drop the head, raise the head, come back, drop ~1.5" from the middle height you just found and go.

The mistake I made was concentrating too much on that without thinking about what MM has said...I need to add:

3.  Adjust accordingly for the desired CANT size.

Now, if it's hooks to the right and you are making studs You are setting CANT Width.  So, if the log is big enough to mill two 6" beams out of it (or cants if you will) then plan to drop to whatever is double the desired width plus the kerf (this is basically what I do starting on cut 3 not 1 but I see MM's point.

So, for 5 5/8" lumber I need to drop to what will leave me 5 5/8" + 1/8" + 5 5/8" (11 3/8") plus something close to 1" or better....so let's take an 17" log SED.  It will net around 11.33" give or take so lets call it 11 3/8.

The first cut needs to be somewhere around half the remainder (18" - 11 3/8" = 6 5/8" so you need the first cut to be around 18" - (6 5/8" / 2) = 14 5/8" roughly.

Or simply take half of the remaining amount of log diameter left after pulling the cant out of the middle (so half of what's left in 18 inches after removing the cant -- make it easier, 18 - 12 = 6 to take about 3")....

So let's examine that (can you tell I worked too long as a technician/engineer?)...

If the log is 18" SED then it's probably somewhere around 19" in the middle (give or take)....if I run down to the middle and get 19" and come back and drop to 17 1/2" I'll end up around 17" at the small end.

Now I've opened a face of at least 4 inches, maybe 6 though most of the log.  I can take a 1x or 2x here if I want.  If I take a 2x now I'll be at 15" (which is darn close to what I needed above)....

Next I roll 90* and do it again (assuming all things equal I'm making my last cut around 15").

3rd 90* roll....I'm starting at 15" at the small end, I drop the toe board if it was up (which lowers me possibly to 14"), since face one was hooks to the right so too is face 3 and I'm milling width for studs so they face bend and don't crown (that's the idea anyway), so I mill down to 11 3/8" and split the CANT.

The mistake I make here which is the reason for all this, is that I sometimes fail to account for the pith because all the math in the world doesn't matter if the pith ends up where you don't want it and you split it.  In this case if it's split it will take out two 2x6's.

To prevent this I usually measure the pith before making my final cut on the 3rd face and usually that's where I'll make a 'skim cut' to adjust and stick the pith elsewhere (boxed into one piece ideally).... I've run an entire weekend without hitting it once ;)  But then some weekends my mind is just not working...on this last job I had to write numbers on the simple set cover to remind myself what to look for and still missed now and again.



So I'd have to add one more step:  

4:  Before opening the 3rd face or 4th face, measure the pith and adjust the first cut / slab cut to allow moving the pith up or down in the cant to box it in.

Ya?

[OlJarhead]

Eric,

  I know I'm dense at times but I guess I'm not following the rationale to find the center then go to the top of the log and come down 1.5". ??? Whey not just start 1.5" from the top of the log?

  If I want to make a certain size cant or beam I will go to the center then come up half the thickness of the planned cant/beam and saw to that point saving any usable flitches I can use then flip 180 and start so I end on the cant/beam thickness.

Going down to the middle of the log (in length, down the mill) and then finding the height/top of the log at that point gives you a reference for the average height or diamter of the log.  Draw back to the start and drop 1.5" from that height.
You might be two inches from the top of the big end and 1" from the top of the small end but will have a good opening face.
What you do from there is the trick.

[OlJarhead]

So what was I doing different from MM?  Other than making mistakes  : :P

Instead of starting with the desired cant width or height in mind (though I have it in mind already) I am worried more about the opening face and what I'll get below it.

However, on face 3 I'm now trying to finish off the cant width or height (same as MM actually)....

What I have done wrong is not adjust the pith then and there.  Sometimes I do, sometimes I do it later (when I realized it's not where I want it)...sometimes I just mess up

I have on occasion (rarely) set the width in two by rolling 180 and milling to width, then 90 and 180 and working to height but that method I only use when I am darn sure I need to be perfectly set in width and the log is barely going to give it (meaning maybe a 14" SED log that I must get 10" lumber out of with no wane....I'll open the face to 10" SE, flip 180, open to 10" then rotate 90 and begin working to my height -- You won't get a 10x10 cant but you may get an 8x10 cant that way.  It's slower but I've been able to 'sneak' out 2x10's from a log that only wants to give a few doing that :D
 

[ladylake]

 
No too many on here get everything done perfect no matter how much extra time it takes.   Steve

[MattM]

I have to disagree with you about the 1.5"  method being faster.

Your already measuring both ends for the pith height so the only extra measurement you need to take is how high the small end is from the pith to the top of the log. I take this measurement when I take the pith center point measurement.

Once I have this measurement I do some math in my head for what I want to cut and determine with my laser eye  ;D how far below the top of my log I need to cut to get the width of lumber I need. For me all of this takes about 2 seconds. But that's only because I've been doing it for years. You definitely have to train your brain in order for it to just come natural.

I also have my brain trained to figure out how much the big end is going to drop of it isn't sitting exactly on a bunk when I lift my small end. This saves having to measure multiple times when I center my pith. For example if the big end is overhanging a bunk by 6 inches and I have to lift the small end 5 inchs, that might drop the big end 1inch. So I only lift the small end 4.5 to compensate. (Fyi These are all just random #s I made up)

When I Mill with the pith centered it is always within a 1/4 inch end to end with this method which makes some very strong construction lumber.

I also measure the pith on my first two opening cuts. With the trees I Mill I've found that even if the pith seems centered it's usually not and I like it to be centered in both planes. I find grain that is angled even a half inch over 8-16ft does not make stong building lumber.

There are exceptions to all this depending on the log I'm milling and the lumber I'm milling.
;D

[MattM]

No too many on here get everything done perfect no matter how much extra time it takes.   Steve

Something else to remember as well is that 99% of us on here aren't uploading videos for the world to see.... Very easy for us all to criticize others when everyone can't see what we Mill like 

[WV Sawmiller]

Eric,

   Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking diameter not length. 

    I will sometimes measure the little end and estimate the height at which I will get a useable face and saw to that height.

[Ljohnsaw]

OK, I'll chime in here.  Re: what to do with the pith.  Totally manual mill with my SkyTrak being the hydraulics and 12 ton pump jacks being my toe board lifts ;)

I'm milling big, long stuff and rolling is quite the ordeal - run a sling around the log and *gently* lift with the SkyTrak while pulling or pushing so when it goes, it doesn't smash into the uprights/backstops and tip everything over.

So, I try to do all I can with minimum flipping.  I center the pith and layout whatever big stuff I want out of that log.  Lately I try to box the pith in a minimum piece of lumber.  That does two things, the pith centered piece, being smaller, will have smaller checks and, second, I get more/bigger things that are FOH that will check very little. 

Once I determine the top of whatever will contain the pith, I set my blade there.  Sometimes I will do a scratch cut just to remind myself so I don't screw up later ;)  I'll "zero" my scale on that cut on the scale for what I'm cutting above.  Might be a 4x6, 2x or 1x.  Then I raise the head to the next increment, or 2 or 3 that gives me a good opening face.  Make those cuts and continue down to my scratch cut.  I might switch scales (re-zeroing) more than once in this process.  Removing all those slabs makes turning easier.

Then I decide if I'm going to do a 180° or just a 90°.  That will depend on how the timbers line up.  Sometimes I have to do a 90° to clear off some big slabs for timbers that don't line up with the center timber.  Then flip 180° and repeat.  Takes extra time but I get extra lumber.  Here is an example:


 I need a bunch of 8x12s from this 40" log.  So I plan on making an 8x8 from the center and want the grain "balanced" in the timbers to try and keep them straight.  The top and bottom 8x12 could have been rotated 90° so all four would be the same but that complicates the cutting even more.  I would mark the top of the centered 8x8, zero the 8" scale, go up one unit, re-zero the 4" scale, go up 1 unit and cut.  Or I might cut some 1x material above that if the log taper lets me.  Then I cut back down including cutting below the center 8x8 removing all the slabs.  Flip and remove the 4x slab, rotate and slice off the timbers.

Then put the other, big, heavy slabs back on the mill, stand them up and edge them and cut multiple smaller timbers from them, recovering a lot of 4x6 stock for braces and girts.  Or maybe make rafters or ?

If I centered the 8x12 on the pith, then I would have a pair of 8x8 that would be great but at the expense of the single 8x12 that WILL check heavily rather than a pair of 8x12 that MIGHT check lightly.

It took me a while to learn this :

And just to keep it interesting, sometimes the log just says, NO, I'm not going to let you get that out of me!  Maybe stress, or grain pulling the blade down and I have to do a skim cut to true it up and figure out what I can now salvage from the log.

[OlJarhead]

I think my problem is I just haven't made the transition from trying to produce more in less time, to slowing down, tackling each log as it comes, not making mistakes and still producing more in less time ;)

[YellowHammer]

There will always be misses, it happens.  But it's important to plan the cuts with the final cant size in mind, within reason.  Look ahead based on your experience.  I call it developing a "pattern cant" because 90% of the time, there's only so many realistic permutations or "patterns" of standard size lumber that can be taken from one.  So in my minds eye, I scan the cant like a scanner and try to visualize the patterns and the cuts before ever doing the opening face.  Like chess, I try to play 3 moves or more ahead.  There are only so many pieces of side wood that can come off before the cant is either "on pattern" or not.  That's when defects in the log can crop up but for this post I'm assuming a cylindrical log.

I also memorize the major reoccurring patterns I cut including kerf losses (just like memorizing multiplication tables) and use them as possible sawing alternatives as I visualize the log. These should also be programmed into the Accuset.  

Also use the components of the sawmill as rulers or measuring devices to keep from having to slow down and use a tape measure.  For example, how high are your backstops at full extension?  (I marked mine in inches on my old LT40, and know how high the scratch marks are on my current LT70 backstops.  What diameter are your backstop rollers?  How wide are your toeboards?  How high will the the toeboards go above the bed in inches?  I love my dragback fingers, they are basically dangling rulers and I know exactly how long they are.  I know the heights on my backstops, the max height of my log clamp above the bed, the thickness of the clamp head, the diameter of the backstop roller, etc, they all give me eyeball references so I can "measure up a log" pretty accurately and quickly as I roll the log on the mill and manipulate it before the first cut.  Traversing the dragback fingers forward and backward over the log as already mentioned tells me how parallel the upper side of the log is when adjusting my toe boards, as well as comparing the space between their ends and the upright back stops, which also will give me an idea of the far end diameter of the log, without ever leaving the console.  Of course, using the band position on Accuset will also give me an exact measurement, but that is slower.  After a few logs of the day, my eye will get better and each log of the day gets visualized easier and faster using the components of the sawmill for references.    

I use my Accuset Bed and Pattern mode a lot, and have many patterns already input into them, along with half cuts and common combinations if I need them.  It will take lots patterns, more than I've ever needed.

Two quick examples.  Say I'm sawing true 4"x4" stock, I know that I need to get to a minimum pattern cant that's 12.25" thick on one dimension with the pith 6 inches off the bed.  Those are the two measurements I need to target on that thickness, and I take off side wood to get there.  So I need to visualize 12 inches and 6 inches and to target a cant thickness where I can use Accuset Pattern Mode and make two easy drops to get three 4" thick boards with a centered pith in the middle one, including kerf loss.  The pattern that's in my head is also already programmed into Accuset, in this case, it's pattern 4A.  I can do whatever I want on the dimension on the other thickness of the cant as long as I don't get less than 12.25" on the first dimension.  Sometimes, as I'm sawing the other dimension, I remain flexible, because a straight board should have the cathedral pattern centered in the board along it's length, more so than on the ends.  

Or, say I'm sawing high dollar walnut into 8/4 live edge and 4/4 edged wood where waste is not acceptable, including splitting the pith on two $400 walnut 8/4 walnut slabs.  Ouch!  So, I have the Accuset drops on my 8/4 boards set at 2-3/8" because I know I can kiln dry them at that thickness and clean them up to a consistent 2 inches.  However, of equal importance, a 2-3/8" drop is an exact multiple of my 4/4 board drop at 1-1/8" thick plus kerf.  So one 8/4 drop drop is 2-3/8" and two 4/4 drops also equals 2-3/8" or any combinations of patterns involving them - they are all multiples of each other.  So as I'm sawing down, I can make adjustments on the fly, and never get out of pattern, or at least have plan B if I have to.  The closer I get to the pith or other defects, I can do combination of 4/4 and 8/4 drops to try to contain the defect in as few boards as possible.

I apologize is these examples are too simplistic, and certainly it gets more complicated, but after all, its just sawing wood and you are doing fine.      

[Magicman]

I always establish my target cant within the log and generally make a red mark.  I go up by board thicknesses from that mark to determine my opening face.  The target width determines my opening face height, not the log.  The log determines my second face opening, the targeted cant width determines the third, and the log determines the fourth face opening.

There are never any surprises nor oops regarding the pith because it will always be centered within the center or single cant.  I will take a log down to one center cant rather than try to squeeze a second cant out.  I am always sawing one or three cants.  It may require edging a few more boards but the pain is worth the gain. 

[OlJarhead]

CRAZY DRIVE, BIG LOGS, REMOTE LOCATIONI, What's Not To Love?? [Woodmizer LT40 Sawmill] - YouTube
I have to admit this location has been fun but. ot the road in and out!

[Magicman]

Congratulations on a good job well done Erik and thank you my friend for sharing. 

I will agree that I have never finished a job that I was unhappy to leave.  It's in the rear view mirror and the future is in the headlights.  ;D

[OlJarhead]

Thanks. I hated leaving without milling all the logs but with no help it is what it is lol

[OlJarhead]

I will add that this customer has been good to me and keeps adding logs ro the deck and calling me back.  I'm pretty certain he's selling much of the lumber as it dissappears pretty quickly after I mill it up.

[WV Sawmiller]

  I do love sawing for a good repeat customer. I will admit feeling a pucker as you made that turn kind of like sawing a final board and 3/4" dog board under my blade. smiley_curtain_peek

   On the flip side how many times have you watched that pile of logs and mentally you were done on that last log only to have the customer come drag up another log or two he had staged behind the barn or run grab his saw and even cut down another tree and saw another 3-4 logs out of it.

[MattM]

Erik I was just wondering, what are you using for a backup camera?
I've had a few the past couple of years but had to return most of them because the picture would cut out. And the one I have now worked good...for a year ... But bit the dust this fall. Yours looks like it gets goot reception even with the camper in the way. Is it a amazon one? Or one of those really expensive models?

[OlJarhead]

Ahhh yes the customer says 12 logs, you show up and there is 30, mile 29 and 3 more suddenly arrive from the tree he just fell and your day just got longer!!! lol

I'll have to look up the camera as I was happy with it...lol but um, it's not working now though it may just be a loose wire or something.   If it's something simple I'll let ya know.

[OlJarhead]

I'm going to abuse these two saws!
RYOBI 38CC CHAINSAW VS ECHO DSC5000: Which One Is The Best? - YouTube

[WV Sawmiller]

   I'm thinking the electric are going to be better saws for trimming limbs and such around the yard and along fencerows and such but I can't believe I could keep enough batteries charged to be productive on sawing a lot of big hard logs.

   I bought a new EFCO gas saw 2 day ago to replace my Stihl 440 which has been in the shop more the last 6 months than in use. It has had a lot of hard use and maybe it has done all I should have expected it to do. I ordered a 24" bar and it came the next day so that is a confidence booster.