Helmsman Spar Urethane testing (satin)
Every time I see someone's nice wood working project with an amazing finish on it, I am usually the first to ask what finish it is, and how did they do it.
I happened to have a request from my wife for someplace to sit next to the playground while the kids are playing. I just happened to have an ugly curved walnut log. So, of course that got sawn into curved benches.
Now when it comes to lazy I can hold my own. I was looking for a good high quality finish that would last living outside and not require yearly touchups or stripping and redoing. Living in upstate NY I knew I needed something durable. I was also looking for something easy to get / locally available.
Well, where is the first place you go looking for any woodworking information? The forestry forum of course. I spent about a week searching through different threads. This one thread got my attention
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=110457.msg1739798#msg1739798.
Most of the other threads I found were from quite a few years back. Some even older than 2012.
I am hoping this thread will be helpful to many that are looking for different finishes. Here is at least one thread getting really in depth into the Helmsman Spar Urethane (clear satin finish).
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/Helmsman1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142497)
Part of the reason I decided to try the Helmsman was the availability. My wife picked it up for me at Lowes. I think it was $53 for the gallon. (Was better price point to go with the gallon).
My first observation, which didn't really make me all that happy, was the color of it. I was really hoping for a clear urethane. Unfortunately there is a pretty good tint to this. See image below.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/Helmsman2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142522)
Since I already bought the gallon, and was really interested in the product, I decided to continue the test.
Prep work consisted of a belt sander to smooth out the sawmarks and an orbital sander to smooth out the rest. I spent a lot more time prepping the top of the bench than the bottom. The images that follow are of the bottom of the bench. (Top of the bench photos will come later)
Initially I applied the finish using a cheap bristle brush that you can see in the image. I wanted to get a before picture of the boards, but as usual, I forgot. So I made sure the following images have a little of both.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/first_coat_wet_28229.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142125)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/first_coat_wet_28129.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142561)
This next image shows 1 bench completed and still wet with the other one raw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/first_coat_wet_28429.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142147)
Both benches with one coat still wet.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/first_coat_wet_28529.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142164)
Both benches with one coat after 6 hours. Ready for sanding and second coat. I also added a scrap piece for a sample that you see in the center.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/first_coat_wet_sample.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142173)
Both benches dry with single coat after hand sanding using 220 grit.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/first_coat_dry.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142177)
Second coat, wet.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/two_coats_wet.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142192)
Two coats dry
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/two_coats_dry.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142008)
Two coats dry and sanded with 220 grit by hand
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/two_coats_dry_28229.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142017)
Three coats dry with sample. The sample is the top side of the bench that had the better prep.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/three_coats_dry_with_sample.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594142066)
I chose to do three coats due to the recommendations on the can. Two coats looked nice but I went for a little more protection with the thirsty raw wood.
I will perform the same review on the other side of the bench when I get time to finish it. I am also planning 1 month, 3 month, 6 month, and 12 month photos. That is the reason I made the sample. The sample will remain indoors and covered so we can see how the finish weathers.
I hope you enjoyed my little review so far. Stay tuned, more to come.
The small sample in the center of the boards is a 3 stage piece. I have 1 coat 2 coats and 3 coats on it. same prep as the boards themselves.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/sample.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594151970)
popcorn_smiley cool..... that's what I am using for bench finish as well, but nothing outdoors like that as of yet. I am interested to see how long it will hold up.
I have been using this product for about 10 years. it is available at lowes and wal-mart, and amazon. I get the spray and gallons. for a large project i will finish from a can first until it has some build. fine sand, and the final coat from a spray can. it does not last forever, but if you catch it early, a light sanding and touch up is ok. if the grain of the wood cracks, it will take more. this is why I do not put my legs through outdoor benches, as this is where the surface finish will fail. oil does not matter. i like the satin, but you can use what ever sheen you like, as long as the final is the sheen you want. to get the rays in maple, it is recommended you use the gloss. you can give 10 coats of gloss, the a final spray coat of satin, and you get satin. It can go over danish oil, and i do this for finer pieces made of walnut. i us this on ERC and like the satin so it does not look like a gift from the I-70 truck stop. I have put it on ceiling boards and put it on with a short nap roller with a long handle. very fast.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/259CFB92-1F71-4732-9554-866A80819C9A.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1546307808)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/B850A2AD-8B46-474F-B04A-1C11C2C127E6.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1546636511)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/042.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1546898789)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/26D4E4BF-B1B4-4EC5-88F4-9FBE9BEE97D3.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1547313892)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/1B50977F-4518-4182-AB47-FCEF4D7AD1FE.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1547918929)
some examples of projects finished with this product. i may try to find some now pics, with an estimate of time outside.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25189/20200707_190755~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594163237)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25189/20200707_190755~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594163237)
I used this for a large number of red cedar projects. Inside the house is marginal. Nothing I have found will keep red cedar from fading to burnt orange if it gets sunlight.
Outside I will never, ever, ever consider using it again. In addition to discoloration the finish breaks down and peels quite readily. Save the expense and hassle of sanding and refinishing and let outside projects weather and then slop some deck waterproofing on it.
Three summers on an east facing covered porch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25189/20200707_190815.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594163082)
I use the Verathane version of this product and I am not sure how much difference is between the two, I suspect they are very similar. I have one nice bench that has been out in the weather all year, but not in direct sunlight and a nicer bar that lives outside but not in the sun or rain. I will try to get the one back that belongs to me and see how it has done. Mostly I find this holds up well. I gave a bench to a neighbor, it is maple and very light, so it has a yellowish patina as finished. That was left out in the rain/snow/sun since last summer and I saw it last week and it is not any darker than I recall.
But I do have a question: I bought a gallon around June of 2019 and did a few good sized pieces, more than a few coats each. then I used it for a few more projects through the fall and winter, but around December I noticed it getting thick and dark and I still had just under a half gallon left. I figured it was getting too much air when I opened it frequently, so I got two new 1 qt. cans and poured it into those, but when each got down to half full, they developed thick skins and darkened more. What more, they gave a poor finish. SO I resolved to only buy them in 1 qt. cans. Well today I opened that can, which is nearly done and it too it skinned over. It's only 2 months old. Now my local source has been out of stock for over a week. I am thinking about trying the min-wax version of this product. Have any of you guys had this issue with the min-wax? Any tips on getting it to hold up in the can?
I think it's important to note that I use oil based, exterior rated type, not the water based. I have not seen nor heard of good outdoor results with the water based at all. I can't tell from the can in the first post which type it is.
they make and aerosol with I think Nitrogen (inert gas) to spray in you can as you close it up. so the freash air dows not evaporate the thinner and oxidize the finish. I have added thinner, mixed and strained the stuff and it does ok. I guess you could use beer gas. the nitrogen, not the CO2
SO I am guessing you don't use it Doc? I have never heard of using nitrogen in beer, but I don't know much about beer beyond which ones I like. I always used CO2 in my kegs. Maybe nitrogen oxide would be fun? ;D I'll have to search for a source of this nitrogen you speak of. Does anybody have experience using this in their shop?
I use shielding gas from the MIG. On hand and easy to dispense. About three seconds worth and it keeps the finish fresh. The bit of CO2 doesn't seem to cause any problems.
Before that I had a pony scuba tank the dive shop gave after it couldn't be certified any longer. The also filled it with N when required, but it lasts a really long time.
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on July 07, 2020, 07:26:21 PM
I use the Verathane version of this product and I am not sure how much difference is between the two, I suspect they are very similar. I have one nice bench that has been out in the weather all year, but not in direct sunlight and a nicer bar that lives outside but not in the sun or rain. I will try to get the one back that belongs to me and see how it has done. Mostly I find this holds up well. I gave a bench to a neighbor, it is maple and very light, so it has a yellowish patina as finished. That was left out in the rain/snow/sun since last summer and I saw it last week and it is not any darker than I recall.
But I do have a question: I bought a gallon around June of 2019 and did a few good sized pieces, more than a few coats each. then I used it for a few more projects through the fall and winter, but around December I noticed it getting thick and dark and I still had just under a half gallon left. I figured it was getting too much air when I opened it frequently, so I got two new 1 qt. cans and poured it into those, but when each got down to half full, they developed thick skins and darkened more. What more, they gave a poor finish. SO I resolved to only buy them in 1 qt. cans. Well today I opened that can, which is nearly done and it too it skinned over. It's only 2 months old. Now my local source has been out of stock for over a week. I am thinking about trying the min-wax version of this product. Have any of you guys had this issue with the min-wax? Any tips on getting it to hold up in the can?
I think it's important to note that I use oil based, exterior rated type, not the water based. I have not seen nor heard of good outdoor results with the water based at all. I can't tell from the can in the first post which type it is.
Have you done the flip trick? Where you seal the can then flip it over and the contents in the can seal the lid from allowing any air to get in. I do this with all my paints and have had almost no problems with drying up or skimming over.
btulloh great idea. I never thought of doing that but the flip trick has worked great for me so I will keep doing that.
Well, less is more. If the flip is working, you can't beat it for simplicity.
Seems like the ox in the can would still cause problems, but there's no arguing with success. Guess I better try the flip.
It does to a point but the little bit I may lose is not a big deal. It is the full gallons that you lose that really stink!
Got a PM from another member with another method. He's been using a bit of propane from a torch and it works fine. Everybody's got a propane torch handy.
Propane is good idea. it is heavier than air so will displace all of the oxygen in the can.
Not so good for opening it if your a smoker or working with sparky
I second what Stavebuyer said, Ill never use it on an exterior horizontal surface again. I use a good quality varnish on my wooden boats, usually get 4-5 years before a light sanding and re coat.
Quote from: 69bronco on July 08, 2020, 08:38:03 AMI use a good quality varnish
What brand would that varnish be?
I think any "inert" gas that can displace the oxygen. I think it is a combo of evaporation of the carrier/thinner, and oxidation at the top of the pool of finish. so each time you open the can, you have a fresh volume of air to finish. As you use the finish, get a high volume of air to finish ratio. OGH what kind of beer do you drink. I have been meaning to ask. Beer makes its own gas usually. After fermentation in an open container, we add a little more sugar and bottle the beer. or put it in a keg and turn on the CO2 gas. either way it gest carbonated (CO2). It is the stouts that use nitrogen. this is why the bubbles are tiny and you get the cascade effect from like Guinness. My favorite beer back in the day, was a black and tan. so half a glass of (Bass) ale in the glass first. then a spoon at the surface and add the stout, and it foams and lays on the top. fun to drink and see the bi-layer, and when the stout is getting old, you get to the ale. the lore was the English and the Irish did not get along and did not mix. I agree that this finish is not perfect, but let me know what is better. The one table I showed in the metal frame is designed so I can pull the wood out and run it through the planer and re-finish and good as new. It is out by the pool year round! a dunk in epoxy might seal it up, but no uv protection. you can get a small aerosol can of nitrogen from woodworking suppliers like Rockler. I used for a while the stir and pour lid that goes on a gallon can. but had more trouble if it sat for 6 months. you can break up the top skim. it feels like plastic. I run the remaining finish through a strainer and add some thinner and do ok.
Well, I didn't mean to hijack the thread but I just learned a lot. I am usually pretty good about re-sealing the lids and keeping them clean. The issue seems to be related to the volume of air the can can hold. No issues when it is nearly full, but once there is only a little left, that's when it starts. I will give some of these ideas a try, sounds like they all work. I should get some thinners too, to fix/salvage what I have.
so it appears there is no perfect outdoor finish. even solid plastic will degrade over time in sunlight. I think this is a good choice from all that we have and use it on most everything. best on things that see occasional moisture and sunlight, and nothing can handle 24/7/365 over many years. I am using it to keep the wood from rotting, not for the perfect wood grain, color ect. although that is what we dream of. :)
Bloxygen is on amazon and is argon. we used to use something called trimix with Co2, argon and nitrogen gas for mig.
Well this thread got alot more responses and went in many more directions than I expected. Kind of exciting. I really hope all this information helps someone else.
I am hoping to get the other side of the benches done sometime next week. I will take more detailed pictures and try to cut the glare so the detail shows better. As was mentioned earlier, the top side of the bench was prepped quite a bit better than the bottom side.
so went out and took pics of my 24/7/365 projects.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/52C6B1A7-CB47-4BDB-BB80-930C8B9C46BD.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594224446)
done about 3 years ago, defects in the wood (split) were already present
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/04A7C610-60F3-4862-9513-29512D0001B4.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594224578)
was new about 5 years ago. the area of the house numbers, routed and painted, then covered with epoxy are where the worst peeling is. the post looks like new. the gray at the back corner is where I hit it with the grass catcher on the mower on a regular basis.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/F3068DF0-78C0-4496-A537-9620666A7ACD.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594224717)
this is honey locust in the table frame (given to us) of angle iron that sits out by the pool. 3 years since redone. could light sand or run through the planer, and recoat.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/B43F3DB7-E2BF-4AA0-833B-3C7081B10542.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594224439)
close up. it is the grain areas that degrade as they prob. hold the water. makes me wonder if more finish might hold up better it the grain was fully covered until smooth. very interesting thread.
@69bronco (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=26929) what is that varnish? I thought spar urethane was supposed to be a good outdoor option. I use the flip and seal trick in PVC cement, it helps it last longer. Still almost always have to run to town to buy some at the hardware because t h e old stuff is hard anyway...
Just used it (well this past winter) for our main pie hole fillin station. I put trice coats. Messed up, didn't thin it,so it's a tiny bit wavy, but for an old table that'll get tossed (I say tossed, I'm sure me bride will find a use for it) in a year or so, when the new digs are dug, it'll work.
Just have to look around the freshly churned butter stuff
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53840/20200705_225732.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594268630)
Quote from: Nebraska on July 08, 2020, 11:54:13 PM
@69bronco (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=26929) what is that varnish? I thought spar urethane was supposed to be a good outdoor option. I use the flip and seal trick in PVC cement, it helps it last longer. Still almost always have to run to town to buy some at the hardware because t h e old stuff is hard anyway...
Epifanes varnish is a good one, also I've had good luck with Total Boat brand. Just make sure it's spar varnish. Spar urethane is a polyurethane.
I did 3 coats of minwax spar varnish on this bird house we will see how it looks in a year from now.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60329/20200518_201007.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594329376)
Anything exposed outside now I'm using ready seal walnut with used motor oil. I think trying to seal wood outside with a hard coat is a waste of time over all. Looks terrible when it starts to peal and peal it will. Looks great for a while, will grant you that.
Here's our dock
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53840/20200706_202221.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594181398)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53840/1291.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594175396)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53840/1290.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594175397)
old thread, but many folks use nitrogen from a bottle or sieve to air up tires. the Guinness stout beer and other stouts use nitrogen to get the fine bubbles in the foam and cascading. nitrogen can be added to a gallon can of finish to keep it from going bad (oxidizing), cannot make a black and tan beer without the stout being pressurized with nitrogen so the foam floats on top and cascades. Guinness sells bottles of stout with a nitrogen pellet that opens up when you pop the cap, and gives it a fresh froth of nitrogen fine foam. most surface finishes will yellow and peel over time even if UV protect. and oil penetrating finish is great but will also need redone. pick how you want to refinish your project and then the finish. the table in the pick, the boards are laid in loose, and can come out and got through the planer sanded, and refinished. when too thin, new boards. they are locust.
Wow, I have no idea how so many responses got missed by me. I need to take pictures of my benches and the samples again like I promised. Unfortunately, as usual. Life got in the way.
I will get back to this soon I hope.
Someone showed me a trick with tung oil years ago, clean pebbles is another way to take up space in a container so there is less O2 to skin the goods.
popcorn_smiley I was hoping the picture were up... :)
yea, I fail. sorry about that. will do my best to get some tomorrow.
Wow, I am a terrible person for not doing anything on this thread till now. Sorry guys, I feel like I let you all down.
Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion this spar urethane is a poor outdoor finish at best. I think I had less than a year on these benches before the seal started bubbling and peeling. Very disappointing.
I am not sure if I could have done any better surface prep but looking at other pics and doc hendersons closeups I had the exact same failure mode.
It all seems to start at the heavy grain areas.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20220310_142020.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648581914)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20220310_142001.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648581915)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20220310_142325.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648581917)
Good report. Condolences on the finish cracking.
What you've demonstrated is the problem of using film finishes on outdoor wood. There's no way to keep a film finish from cracking because of the natural wood movement. Defects just make it happen faster. I've used spar varnish on a lot of outdoor stuff from boats (mahogany) to tables and doors made of erc. Best case, a varnish will need to be sanded and reapplied after two years. Doesn't have to be sanded down to bare wood, just remove loose stuff and feather the edges. Not as bad it sounds - except on boats. Boat maintenance never got to be something I enjoyed. But that's the whole thing with boats. :D :D Glad I don't own one anymore. 8)
Sorry to see this. It needs sanding and re-finishing now. Bummer. I note that all the finish failures are in areas when trapped air can be present and subject to the frost/thaw cycles. I wonder if that is causing it? I have a table top I need to retrieve and check but last summer when I looked at it, it was still perfect. Out in all seasons 3 years now. However with my tops, I fill all those voids with clear epoxy and sand flush before finishing. The product I use most is Verthane polyurethane exterior oil based for those tables. I have yet to see a failure like yours. In this case, I don't think it's the product, I think it is probably the captive air that is causing the failure.
What do you think?
Just a few weeks ago, I refinished the front doors on our rental/guest house. They had marine varnish on them. I used Totalboat Lust marine varnish on them just because I wanted to finish in one day.
The carved panels had the old varnish still intact, so I cleaned the door with Liquid Sandpaper, so I didn't have to do any sanding of the carved parts, and sanded the stiles and rails down to bare wood.
I put four coats on it after lunch, and we put the doors back up just before sundown.
Epipanes had been my go-to for a long time, but you're lucky to get one coat a day on of that.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35437/IMG_3858.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648596630)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35437/IMG_3864.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648596660)
On that same house, the week before, I redid the garage doors. Since there was so much surface area, I wanted to spray them, so I used another Totalboat product. This one a waterborne marine varnish, because I wanted to spray it with airless, and only spray waterborne stuff with that.
Totalboat Halcyon. This was the first time using it, but I really like it. It can also be recoated in one hour.
Totalboat is the brand name of Jamestown Distributors own line of finishing products. I've been dealing with that company for almost 50 years, and have great confidence in them.
This was a long, bad job of preparing these doors for the new finish. The old varnish was peeling, and the exposed wood was gray, and deteriorating.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35437/IMG_3837.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648597296)
Here's a video we shot of me setting the airless rig for spraying Target Coatings EM8000cv for the base coats under the Halcyon. I like the way conversion varnishes sand for being recoated. It's also a waterborne finish. This shows the usefulness of having a gauge on the airless rig.
Airless spraying EM8000cv - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR9TCTSXyrk)
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on March 29, 2022, 06:54:53 PM
Sorry to see this. It needs sanding and re-finishing now. Bummer. I note that all the finish failures are in areas when trapped air can be present and subject to the frost/thaw cycles. I wonder if that is causing it? I have a table top I need to retrieve and check but last summer when I looked at it, it was still perfect. Out in all seasons 3 years now. However with my tops, I fill all those voids with clear epoxy and sand flush before finishing. The product I use most is Verthane polyurethane exterior oil based for those tables. I have yet to see a failure like yours. In this case, I don't think it's the product, I think it is probably the captive air that is causing the failure.
What do you think?
I think I agree. overall the bench looks good. its only the areas with cracks and twisted grain that did not adhere. So you are probably spot on with you analysis.
I've assumed it is water rather than air when a film finish fails. We used to fix bubbling paint on a house by installing a vapor barrier in the crawlspace first, usually worked. That drop of water diffuses through the surrounding wood, swells fiber and shears the film. The sun turning the moisture to vapor increases the tension pressure under the film, peeling it off. More water enters and the process hastens.
Quote from: Don P on March 30, 2022, 08:34:23 AM
I've assumed it is water rather than air when a film finish fails. We used to fix bubbling paint on a house by installing a vapor barrier in the crawlspace first, usually worked. That drop of water diffuses through the surrounding wood, swells fiber and shears the film. The sun turning the moisture to vapor increases the tension pressure under the film, peeling it off. More water enters and the process hastens.
Interesting observation on the vapor barrier effect on the exterior finish.
Unfortunately, wood is a living breathing thing. and sealing it in a plastic coffin is never a good idea. I had high hopes for this product. Oh well. left a nice finish probably be ok not in the weather but I don't know.
The pictures below are the control sample that I did and has been stored in the house out of direct light.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20220330_103043.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648650533)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20220330_103032.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648650531)
Quote from: samandothers on March 30, 2022, 10:25:50 AM
Quote from: Don P on March 30, 2022, 08:34:23 AM
I've assumed it is water rather than air when a film finish fails. We used to fix bubbling paint on a house by installing a vapor barrier in the crawlspace first, usually worked. That drop of water diffuses through the surrounding wood, swells fiber and shears the film. The sun turning the moisture to vapor increases the tension pressure under the film, peeling it off. More water enters and the process hastens.
Interesting observation on the vapor barrier effect on the exterior finish.
Often can see the effects of moisture in a house without a vapor barrier by looking at the peeled paint on the siding. And often it is particularly bad at the bathroom where shower is used.
But for heated homes in the cold climates, a vapor barrier has been recommended on the heated side of the insulation for about 60 years now.
As well, a vapor barrier at the ground level (crawl space or under the concrete basement floor) has been recommended since the 50's.
Also, very difficult to prevent UV from breaking down the celluloses that hold a finish to the wood.
i used epifanes varnish on my boat inside and out. its made in holland. very good stuff. they have several types. its not a one coat and be done it takes several but its worth it
Quote from: stavebuyer on July 07, 2020, 06:50:53 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25189/20200707_190755~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594163237)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25189/20200707_190755~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594163237)
I used this for a large number of red cedar projects. Inside the house is marginal. Nothing I have found will keep red cedar from fading to burnt orange if it gets sunlight.
Outside I will never, ever, ever consider using it again. In addition to discoloration the finish breaks down and peels quite readily. Save the expense and hassle of sanding and refinishing and let outside projects weather and then slop some deck waterproofing on it.
Three summers on an east facing covered porch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25189/20200707_190815.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1594163082)
@stavebuyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=15189), you were right on the money. I ended up sanding the benches and just putting some thompsons on it that i had laying around.
The spar urethane was a decent product but I would never consider it again for outdoor use. I just sanded and 2 coated the benches with thompsons. Last night the rain hammered everything. The water beaded up nicely on both benches.