How about Japanese larch?
I have seen only scattered larch stands in my area of Pennsylvania. However, they were using them in strip mine reclamation. I'm not sure if that is still the case.
Ron,
We have some samples of a hybrid larch from Plum Creek Timber Co.in Maine. I think it is a cross between Japanese and European larch. It grows fast but, they don't have it the quantities that we need for commercial extraction at this time. Thanks for your reply.
Some Tamarack is harvested in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Prices run from a low of $4.80/cord -to a high of $30.00/cord with an average of $23.28/cord. Contact the Michigan DNR Forest Management Division; Ottawa & Hiawatha National Forests; and Timber Producers in Upper Peninsula Counties.
I know there are some plantings of european larch in the eastern U.P. The Eastern U.P. has large areas of tamarack.
Tamarack definitely grows abundantly in Maine. I would be interested in hearing more about some of those non-timber uses you mention- dietary supplements and whatever else.
Tim
According to my silvics manual Tamarack (larix larincina) grows from Newfoundland to the Yukon and extends south in the McKenzie River drainage to northeastern British Columbia and central Alberta;then east to southern Manitoba, southern Minnesota, southern Wisconsin, northeastern Illinois, northern Indiana, northern Ohio and northern Pennsylvania, northwestern New Jersey, northern Connecticut, and Maine and locally in western Maryland, West Virginia, and Long Island. It also occurs in parts of Alaska.(Source Silvics of Forest Trees of the United States 1975 reprinting)
There are 10 species of larch, but this one seems to be the most wide spread one, in my neck of the world (N. Ont) there is not much demand for the this tree, though some is sawn at the local mills for lumber and it has been used for railway ties, and fence posts.
Hope this helps a bit
Hey Larch Man, you kinda left us hanging here! some of us "non-forester" types are interested in the "compound" in larch and more details on the products that are derived from it.
Is it the same compound that makes tamarack such a durable wood when it comes to outdoor exposure?
Jeff,
I didn't mean to leave anyone in Limbo. The compound in larch that we extract is called Arabinogalactan. We call it AG. You can find out a great deal about it's benefits and uses by checking out our website.
It's www.larex.com
Let me know if you need any further info after viewing our site and I'll do my best to get it to you.
Jeff,
I didn't mean to leave anyone in Limbo. The compound in larch that we extract is called Arabinogalactan. We call it AG. You can find out a great deal about it's benefits and uses by checking out our website.
It's www.larex.com
Let me know if you need any further info after viewing our site and I'll do my best to get it to you.
So okay, in my persona as resinwoman (you will remember me going on and on about balsam poplar), I have FINALLY taken the bait on this tamarack thread. I had looked very briefly at the www.larex.com site about 2 weeks ago..but just checked it again tonight, and became interested enough to look in the Merck Index, and then on alta vista. Nothing in the Merck, but Alta vista turned up- as about the 3rd reference- a page from The Good Scents Company, on resinoids.. And arabinogalactam is listed there- as a componenet of the European larch, but clearly you are saying the same thing is obtainable from the tamarack. It mentions it as a pleasant fixative (always an interest of mine as I work in perfumery and blending)- and the larex site has this stuff with lo! many applications- emollient as well as nutritive, dietary fiber, and immune stimulant. I am a definite proponent of NTFP knowledge base- and now I'm wondering how best to extract this stuff. TGSC mentions it as a turpentine or a gum- and my experience with white pine and pinyon pine is simply to go to an old tree wound and pry off the resin 'tears'. Is that what one would do with the tamarack, or would it be more useful to do steam distillation of wood, dry distillation of wood, or steam distillation of the deciduous green parts? I will look at further references, but would appreciate any hints in this direction.
Louise W.
Louise,
I'm so glad that you've "taken the bait" on the health and other benefits of arabinogalactan from tamarack and larch. I have good news and bad news for you. The bad news is that our extraction process is proprietary and patented so if I told you how to extract it, I'd have to terminate you and I don't want that on my conscience. The good news is that you can purchase the extract from us!!!
The AG is found in the heartwood and in tamarack it is most concentrated in the upper portions of the tree. Just the opposite in western larch. AG is found in many plant species, however, not in sufficient quantities for commercial extraction. It is the active ingredient in echinacea. AG from western larch is 2 to 3 times more effective in boosting immune function than echinacea per a U. of Minnesota study.
Western larch has higher concentrations than tamarack, but tamarack is wider ranging and less expensive to obtain. Siberian and Mongolian larch show similarities to western larch. Let me know if I can provide anything further
Tim
Tim and others:
I visited the LAREX site also and found it quite interesting. In fact I requested (via email) a sample bottle of AG to use in my forest products display. Maybe you could help me out here too.
Is AG (dietary supplement) avaibable in your local Walgreen's or Rite-Aid yet?
I am also wondering if your conmpany has any information on the use of Taxol (from pacific yew)?
And one more item. How close are you to going to market with all this stuff? Do you have any competitors yet? What is the stock symbol for LAREX?
:)
Management receives 25% on dividends earned on all successful stock deals made from information acquired on this board.;D
Forester Frank,
Sorry to keep you waiting. I've been out of town since last Sat. I can get you a sample if they fail to do so from the website. Did you receive a response from them? E-mail me or call me with your address. I doubt that we have info on Taxol as that is not a product that we manufacture.
We don't sell our products to Walgreen's or other retailers yet. We only sell to the retail market via phone or website. That is probably going to change soon. We market our products to companies that use it in their products. You may find a supplement containing AG made by a different company at one of these stores. The ingredient list will mention larch extract or something similar. We have already gone to market with our products ("stuff" as you referred to it). No stock symbol (currently privately held). No dividend royalties for management of this forum.
Sorry Jeff,forgot my passie,I have a great memory its just short. Michelle asks if we can build with larch logs and market as a cold remedy?
The cordwood builders are gearing up to start the debarking phase of their season. A question that was asked is how to remove dried on tamarack bark most easily. Does anyone know of a dip or other method of doing this easily on a home scale?
Don,
Could you educate me as to what cordwood builders do and why they take the bark off the tamarack? How much tamarack is used in this way and what are the costs to obtain it? What portions of the state does this take place in? What size of tamarack is used?
Any information would be very helpful.
Cordwood is an "alternative" building technique (I love the way we label things...it's been used for around 1200 years).
Firewood sized logs are cut, debarked and seasoned for several years. Then stacked and mortared with a 4" stripe of mortar at each end of the wood,end grain is exposed giving a stone wall appearance. Low movement woods are preferred.
It's a good use of small low value wood. Very labor intensive but low cost method of construction. Materials are gathered on site so there is no trade in materials.
I've seen that done with 4 by 6 end trims from a pallot mill. They used to buy the wrong lengths and have a lot of 16 to 20 inch oak end trims (WHAT A WASTE!) (they went out of business). Anyhoo, One of the old hands that worked there built a hell of a nice syrup shack with them.
Sorry I have been out of the loop for a while. I'll get better. Promise. :-[
So this is like wooden 'bricks' and mortar? Is there any problems with the fact that these 'bricks' are round, or do they sit ok in the mortar? If you were going to debark them anyway, would it make sense to cut off slabs and square them up? Then they'd be more like brix. LW
It's also known as stackwall construction.
In a stackwall construction short lengths of logs typically 16"-24" but sometimes shorter are embedded in mortar so that you are looking at the end of the logs when you look at the walls.
I have these are pretty energy efficient buildings especially given the thickness of the walls, but I'm not sure what type of wood they used or how they prevent it from rotting in the long term.
There are probably lots links available for information about this type of construction.
Bill
R-values I've seen are 24-48 depending on who's doctoring the math.
They try to use softwoods that are durable and have low shrinkage values. Rot intrigues me...anyone ever seen EMC numbers on mortar? They do try to build 24" or more above grade and put a big hat on it. Improper seasoning and loosening of the logs appear to be the biggest problems.
The main appeal is the low input cost so slabbing is probably too much cost for most but I might try a wall like Jeff described, I usually turn branches into 4x4x4', cut em in half and go. Another appeal to me is the fact that they are using directly what is often cull, no chipping, glueing,etc just build with whats in the yard.
Was toying with idea of guest cabin with this to window level then piece-en-piece log walls from sills up.
This material sounds like just the type we are looking for and the reason that I started this particular discussion board on tamarack. Does anybody know how much of this is available, where it's available, and at what price? When you say they just build with what's in the "yard"; are you referring to a log yard like at a sawmill or do you actually mean someones back yard? Does it occur statewide or in a particular area of the state? My company is interested in buying tamarack and lots of it (60,000 cords/year). Any particulars would be appreciated.
Sorry Larch Man, these are small property owners harvesting a few cords. I was hoping in your processing you or someone here knew of a good way of bark removal.I have heard rumors in the past of spray ons that loosened tight bark.
However while I have you here another off topic that interests me is the movement of extractives in a piece of wood....Is it possible to move the stuff of heartwood and redistribute evenly throughout the wood? Sort of like steaming walnut, no sapwood. But maybe with rot resistant species move those compounds evenly throughout the wood. Any thoughts?
Don,
The only way I know of to remove the bark, short of an industrial debarker, is with a drawknife. It will peel it right down to the wood and is not difficult. I'm not familiar with spray ons.
As far as the question of evenly distributing the extractives throughout the wood, I can't help you there. I'm a forester. I think you need someone with a backround in wood technology or wood science.
Good luck.
My wood science book explains that conversion from sapwood to heartwood may be due to a lack of oxygen. This is a gradual process, so duplicating it would be both expensive and time consuming.
I obviously don't have a degree in wood science or anything- but a living tree is very functionally divided, in terms of materials' flow. To spread material from heartwood to other areas, even in deadwood, would probably require such disruption of these previously functional channels that one might well lose structural integrity as well. lw
No, heartwood is actually stronger than the sapwood. This is due to the chemical changes in the wood structure.
yes, I believe that- but I think the question was; whether there was a way to spread substances found in the heartwood throughout the rest of the wood. I think this would have to be by active process, passive process, or via natural channels. Are there natural channels going from heartwood out to the xylem/phloem portions of the tree (I don't think so)
Would you spread the stuff by diffusion? (pretty slow work considering the impermeable characteristics of either wood en bulk or individual cells- cell walls, cellulose, and all.)
Would you drive it by some type of electrophoresis? (yeah, clamp those electrodes on there- spike one into the heartwood, put another set girdling the outer perimeter, and smoke that baby!- hmm- Frankensteins' tamarack!)
I just couldn't see spreading it without disrupting the natural characteristics that make wood- well- wood- durable, waterproof, yata yata.
Oh, or you could soak it in oil, or stick it in water like so much of a celery stalk and hope the stuff would spread that way. (The soaking in oil-soluble materials has worked to a limited extent in terms of creosote or other material soaking into the OUTER layers.
Enlighten me.. lw
Well, there is an avenue from the heartwood to the sapwood. It is called the rays. They are quite evident in the oaks. I believe all woods have them.
The chemicals that are found in heartwood are formed from the lack of oxygen. Therefore, they won't translocate through osmosis. They aren't soluable.
Chemical treatments such as creosote are put in under pressure. This kind of squeezes the chemicals into the sapwood. But, not much gets into the heartwood. That is due to the permeability of the heartwood. There isn't much.
I don't know of any way of making the heartwood chemicals leach into the sapwood. It is a natural process and can't be reproduced by mechanical methods. Even if it could, it would be too expensive for little benefit.
What about steaming it, like walnut. Layer heartwood sawdust over the sapwood inside a steam vat. I know it will work on walnut, mayby not tamarak.
Cool, I always wondered exactly how that was done,kind of muddies the bold coloring but sure evens out the sapwood.
Have you ever seen a steamed board that was exposed to the elements?
I don't know if we've been noticing what is becoming of the durable species Cedars, Redwood... Chestnut.
Treatment chemicals are one by one being pulled. There is probably some future in growing durable woods.
What stimulates the production of heartwood? Can one make more, faster, with higher amounts of whatever extractive makes that species desirable?
Lots of tamarack in the central U.P. We built a bridge over a creek with tamarack stretchers over 20 years ago, you can still drive a dozer over it. Some loggers might sell it to you if it's worth their time, but most goes on the pulp pile. You can get a list of loggers through the Michigan DNR site. Check guys in Delta, Marquette and Schoolcraft counties. I'm sure someone would set aside a stack for you.
Thanks for that information. Tamarack and other species of the genus Larix are very durable so it doesn't surprise me that the bridge you built using it is still capable of supporting heavy loads.
The material that we would purchase is the same that would be used by the pulp mills and, in fact, could still be used by them after we are finished with it. The price we pay would have to be greater than or equal to the pulp price in order to capture the material from the logger or landowner. I assume that by "worth their time" you mean separating the tamarack from other species in the deck? I am fully aware that there is a cost for sorting, but I'm not familiar with what that is in your part of the world as I work and live in Montana. Any ideas on those costs and the cost to purchase the logs?
I would need more than a stack, as you say. I want to purchase 60,000 cords a year. The harvest numbers that I've seen for Michigan do not support that volume, but I don't know if that is because of lack of demand for tamarack or because the timber is not available.
Larch Man, I can point you to a guy named Terry Kanerva who operates out of Rock. Tell him "Zap" told you about him. I don't know where he sells his stuff, but he's a pretty big operation, much bigger than I am, and he cuts it all and has the heavy equipment to do it. I guess it would have to cover his shipping and over pulp prices, but you may be able to work something out. He's a real nice fellow, but he also cuts cedar, and that and veneer logs is the money wood where we cut. I wouldn't count on 60,000 cords, but you never know. The pulp prices have been pretty low lately. I hesitate to put his phone or email on a public forum, but I could shoot an email off to him and have him get back to you if he's interested. Let me know at zap@netwurx.net. It may take awhile, he's jobbing out in the waist-deep snow now, he's got a couple of huge harvesters and processors, so he works all winter.
Zap,
Thanks for the help. I see that Rock is located in the center of the U.P. which is about the best location as far as timber and pulp mill locations that could utilize our extracted chips. I've sent off an e-mail reply to you including my address, phone number, and e-mail address. If Terry responds, I'll give him a call and ask him some questions.