Using grid power for cranking

[Don P]

I finally got the 6 cyl Deutz diesel engine mated up to the sawmill today. Scrounged around through my old batteries. I think they breed somewhere in dark corners, I found 4 dead ones  :D. The starter needs 24 volts so basically about $250 of batteries. Then I looked 6' away and there is the power panel. Is there an easy way to get 24 volts DC of enough amps to do the job and get off the batteries?

[firefighter ontheside]

I don't know, but maybe the answer is some kind of 120v starter motor instead of a converter.

[dgdrls]

Unsure of the electric question,  sorry, 


You'll have to post some photos of that Deutz and the mill.

best

D

[Ljohnsaw]

That would be some SERIOUS amperage to turn that starter.  I think an AC motor would be far cheaper than building a AC-DC converter to handle the load.  In any event, the $250 for a pair of batteries will probably be looking like a pretty good bargain ;)

[doc henderson]

a lot of military stuff runs on the 24 to 28 volts.  we used the MBUs in scouts but had a 120 V AC to 24V DC transformer.  not near the juice you need to turn over a diesel i would think.  an old military generator would possibly.  If you found some older batteries and had a batt charger with 24 V and a 200 amp start setting.  you would not want to crank it for long. 

[mike_belben]

I dont really think so Don.  Ive run corded 120VAC tools and lights on 100+ volts of DC made from an unregulated alternator but never put AC into a brushed motor.  Id be afraid it smokes the windings.




 Call your nearest truck places for the best price on a 3/8 threaded stud top group 31 batteries with 950CCA and get em before they go up.  Atleast you have cores.   The stud tops are a more durable, trouble free connection than stupid lead.




If any of your dead ones have about 8 volts min you can probably revive with a jumper box and distilled water.  Especially Deka's.  Ive got about a 60% success rate overall.  If its above 10vdc id say 80% success.  Deeper the discharge and longer its been dead the worse it is.


You need a "start" mode charger to boil the sulfates off the plates... not some little trickle toy.

[tacks Y]

Well if you need 600 amps at 24v you need 120 amps at 120v or 60 at 240v. Seems like one could make it work, or does it need a lot more amps? My electrical is way to rusty, need to trans form down and get some big diodes to make dc. Most welders are not big enough diodes to handle the amps. Sounds like a good utube search.

[Southside]

Maybe replace the starter with a 12V gear starter? Then you could use a jump charger to crank it over?

After having tried such experiments in the past with "what if I?". My personal solution now would be to just get the batteries. 

[Gere Flewelling]

Our local NAPA store sells a 12/24 volt jump pack that has a built in charger.  That might work to power your device and recharge on 115v.  Not sure how long the battery charger would work.  Likely would have to plug it in at night and leave it unplugged when using the pack.  They are about double the cost of a plain 12v jump pack.  I have used the 12v packs to power engines and small systems with good success.
I suspect any NAPA store would have access to the same device.

[moodnacreek]

I must have spent almost a grand this year on batteries .  My genset,24V needed them, that was half the expense and other machines got jealous.  One of those big ones still holds a charge but you need 2 and are far away. A couple of weak 12V's with a charger hooked up might work. Many like to keep a small charger hooked up all the time but that always caused fast corossion for me.  

[btulloh]

Interesting question, Don P.  

It SEEMS like 120/240v starters would be something that's available although a quick search didn't turn up any.

It SEEMS like a big ol' stick welder might have enough juice to do the job.

It SEEMS like you could make a 120v starter by using the shaft, bendix, and mounting plate off a starter, coupling to a gear reduction box, coupled to a 1hp 120v motor.  (Some machining required.)

It SEEMS like a line-powered pony motor could be rigged up.

"SEEMS like" is a fuzzy phrase that's a long way from practical reality.  But sometimes things can work out.

Maybe a couple car batteries in series and a 24V jump box that Gere Flewelling mentioned could work.

It sure takes a lot of big expensive batteries to keep life moving forward.  SEEMS like I'm always buying batteries for something and gets expensive.  (I had 16 batteries on the same life cycle I had to replace in a three month period a couple years ago.  Whew!)

[mike_belben]

Or just get batteries and take care of them.  Ive tried every which way to rub 2 nickels and really dead batteries just arent it.  Theyll waste more of your future time and by then, cost more of your future money.  I dread buying new batteries until i do then regret the time wasted fiddling due to my reluctance to just buy them. 

[Dave Shepard]

I think Mike's got the right idea. I get group 31 batteries at the local-ish Navistar dealer. Any other approach is going to be much more than the batteries and probably not as good a solution.

[farmfromkansas]

3 of my tractors have 2 batteries, I just replace the expensive JD batteries with the same size from the bulk battery dealer.  My newest JD 7130 tractor had a special battery you had to buy from the dealer, I just took it to the battery guys, and they sold me a big battery that fits a diesel truck. Price was right and has had a good life.  The early 4020 JD tractors had 24 volt starters and used 2-12 volt batteries, just have to hook them up right.  

[farmfromkansas]

Think the best use of the grid power would be to keep a battery tender on your batteries, I get years out of lawn mower batteries when I keep a tender going on them.

[mike_belben]

The economy of scale in semi batteries has driven the price down into the honda civic price range.  Maybe 6 months ago i was still able to get them for $99 + core.  950cca group31 generics.. Cheapest cca/$ out there.  


Before buying a random pail of cable crimps at the scrap yard, i used to make them out of a scrap of hard or soft copper to fit the wire gauge.  Smash a flat then drill a hole,  slobber some flux onto old arc stinger cables and smash the crimp on with 2 hammers if i have to do it in place and theres nothing to dolly it over.  Then solder with a bottle torch.  



I usually shine up the commutator on old starter and check the brushed too. 
You wont believe how fast stuff cranks with a new truck battery, fat new wires, good soldered copper lugs and clean starter.  I mean fast.  


Dont forget to sand up the mounting flanges and ground wires.  Add them if needed.  Steel is a poor circuit.  

[Andries]

. . . . Is there an easy way to get 24 volts DC of enough amps to do the job and get off the batteries?

Mike and company have great advice re battery care and maintenance, but if you're stationary and have a power panel right there, there's a simple answer. . . . .
We have a bit of cold up here, and the service centres for highway trucks all use a wheeled battery charger/jumper carts.



Costs a bit of money, but buy once, plug it in, and kiss your ^%$#@! batteries goodbye.
These produce up to 125A at 24v. which you could leave bolt to the starter leads for your Deutz.

[mike_belben]

I considered suggesting that but can only remember trying to start something on jump mode once unsuccessfully forever ago where there was no battery at all. Have they gotten better?

Maybe alligator clamps just cant transfer enough amps?

[Andries]

What I see here in Canada, those truck stop jump carts are all plugged into electrical outlets and have power enough to start anything. Some do have batteries in them, most don't. 
They are battery chargers that can be switched over to jump starters. I figured for Don, switch it to 24v. jump start and bolt the cables to the Deutz. And leave it there.
.
In Winnipeg, organizations that have a few hundred cars parked outside usually have a battery jump cart available for "no-start" help. Where I worked, there was a sensitive soul who would partially un-plug a vehicle if she thought that she had been dissed. Talk about passive aggressive issues!
Anyhoooo, for the past two weeks we've had weather that feels like a personal insult when you step outside. The small booster packs about the size of a half shoebox work great. My son has lent me his for about a week and its saved our bacon. 12v only, and not enough grunt for a diesel.
However, for DonP, the big charger-booster carts seem to fit his request. Alligator clamps are like booster cables. You get what you pay for. ElCheapo ones will get you frostbite and dead vehicles, good ones ($) work like a charm.

[Don P]

I was looking at those carts last night wondering if they had the oomph. It SEEMS like it would work ;D.

I did get 2 good enough batteries hooked to it temporarily today. It had been a year, or maybe two since it had run, I had disconnected the fuel tank to move it all in so wasn't really optimistic but lo and behold 3 short cranks of a few seconds each, this thing has no glow plugs or air heat and it was about freezing temp, she lit right off  8).  The tire I have on the saw mandrel to reverse rotation and "gear" it down needs balancing but it sawed a smallish pine log well, woohoo! I need to change oil (almost $100 for 5 gals today  ) then hook the suction back up, get the exhaust up through the roof, put a full set of teeth in the saw and then try some healthier logs to see if it has the traction to run this way. Big diesel, turbo whine and no bog, it's no 35 hp massey but I think it'll do.

[moodnacreek]

So that's what your doing, I remember now, friction driving a Bellsaw [?].  That engine should be more than enough but I would be surprised if you transmit the power you have. And be careful not to bend the mandrel, I did that already. My Bellsaw was powered by a v8 ford that I belted to a shaft mounted parallel to the engine and connected to the mandrel through a car drive shaft. The terminal connection was keyed and taperlocked, something we made up. When the Bellsaw left here all the stuff mentioned stayed as it runs off a tractor pto now.  Too bad we are not closer , hate to see this stuff get junked.

[Don P]

That's it, yeah there's about 90 hp there now. Don't junk that stuff yet, that's pretty much what I was thinking if this slips. There is now a hub on the mandrel with a 11.5" wide x 32" tire on it. The PTO on the Deutz has a 12"wide x 12" dia flat belt pulley. It didn't seem to slip yet but I doubt I had more than 10" in the pine log at any time. I'll keep easing up and see what it can handle. I wonder what a gummy slick costs  :D.

[farmfromkansas]

Our local NAPA store is having an oil and filter sale right now, they quoted me 9$ a gallon in 5's, for NAPA 15-40 diesel oil.  Ordered a bunch of filters and oil for the farm tractors.  Said the oil is Valvoline.

[moodnacreek]

Don, what saw are you using? Mine ran a 46" style 3 w/ 32 teeth. I figured the v8 was putting 60 to 70 hp to it. I had the feed geared up some. If you can get most of you power to the saw you will have plenty. When you have plenty of power then you concentrate on the little things; the filing , the lead etc. and the mill runs better than ever. 

[Don P]

That sounds like the same blade, I'm running every other tooth because of the low hp I had, the "missing" teeth I ground the sides off of and lowered so they were out of the cut circle but sharp. That blade has an internal blister in one area and is about done. I have a 36 and a 48", that one will go in at some point probably sooner than later but I'll need to move guides and check the pit.

[moodnacreek]

Don, I left the saw running alongside the log one time to go help a customer. When I came back there was quite a racket in the mill with the saw going nuts. What happened was a dead knot fell out against the saw. It blistered up a blue spot but when that happens there are actually 3 of these spots. The saw would still run ok but I had it hammered anyhow by a new guy. He got it nice and flat but left it full of tension like they often will. A saw will run like that but it will be very touchy because if you touch any thing [with the saw body] or get your filing a little off, whatever, that saw will be waving at you. It took another saw man 2 days to get all that tension out and have a flat plate but it runs very good now. Sometimes a saw with high spot can do just fine with 5/16" teeth and a bit of extra lead.

[Rigg]

I got some group 31's from Rural King last year for $79. I'm not sure how long they last though.  My last pair of Exide's in my track loader lasted from 2011 to last fall so I doubt they'll beat that. 

Napa was doing oil special's for 8.99/gal or so about this time of year.  Also Rural King had a mail in rebate on Mobil Delvac 1300.   After the rebate it was about $25 for 5 gallons.  I stocked up a year or so ago so I'm not sure what the current price is but I'd imagine they still have the mail in rebate.

[farmfromkansas]

Rigg,  is Rural King a farm store?  Here we have TSC and Orsheln. 

[mike_belben]

Yeah.  They came in last year and set up right across from TSC and are waaay better.  I tried not to go to TSC before and have almost no reason to now.  Still get propane and saw stuff from the co-op right next door to both of them.  


Deka makes the hardest to kill batteries i have ever encountered.  Made by east penn.  That said, all lead acid batteries still need maintenance.  "Maintenance free" is a bold-faced lie. And sealed lead acid means "cannot be maintained."  Designed for throwaway at the first deep discharge.  Only buy batteries with 6 caps exposed.  They may be under the sticker. Its a lot less of a chore when there are 6 screw caps right there. 

[Joe Hillmann]

I was looking at those carts last night wondering if they had the oomph. It SEEMS like it would work ;D.

I did get 2 good enough batteries hooked to it temporarily today. It had been a year, or maybe two since it had run, I had disconnected the fuel tank to move it all in so wasn't really optimistic but lo and behold 3 short cranks of a few seconds each, this thing has no glow plugs or air heat and it was about freezing temp, she lit right off  8).  The tire I have on the saw mandrel to reverse rotation and "gear" it down needs balancing but it sawed a smallish pine log well, woohoo! I need to change oil (almost $100 for 5 gals today  ) then hook the suction back up, get the exhaust up through the roof, put a full set of teeth in the saw and then try some healthier logs to see if it has the traction to run this way. Big diesel, turbo whine and no bog, it's no 35 hp massey but I think it'll do.

Do you have any pictures of your tire transmission set up?  I ask because I recently build a 3 pint winch using a tire rubbing on a spinning shaft to reduce the speed.  When I was building it I was looking all over the internet to find pictures of similar set ups to see if it would work but couldn't find a a single picture of that method being used.

[farmfromkansas]

About TSC, local news announced this morning that TSC bought Orsheln F&R this morning.  So guess we need a new company to come in for competition.

[moodnacreek]

Back in the day there where stone crushers run off old cars. Where the spread of the crusher flywheels and the car rear end matched, you guessed it, they backed the rear tires up against the crusher.  They also made up 'wind' governors  to keep the rpm constant. No computers back then.

[Rigg]

Rigg,  is Rural King a farm store?  Here we have TSC and Orsheln.

Yes, they moved in here not long ago, like Mike said.  I've never heard of Orsheln. We lost our local NAPA a little while back so kind of put a crimp on me.

[Don P]

Yeah I was sorry to see them change hands and then close. I've been going to CarQuest in Sparta, usually good but that's where I got smoked on oil the other day. Thanks for the Rural King tip, I'll hit em up next time I'm in Wiffle.

I stomped the 8" dust pipe and got it to clear the feed pulleys and got it temporarily hooked back up. Then added some gold oil and fired up for a couple more frozen pine logs. The first small one did fine then I got into a larger one and the mill slipped like crazy. I tried belt conditioner on it but that didn't help so I dropped the tire pressure, pulled up closer hoping to get a bigger patch of rubber in contact and had let too much pressure out. I didn't have a compressor down there and was about cold so quit for the day. The tire is very old so that doesn't help but I might be barking up the wrong tree. The owner of the tire shop drag races, I'll see if he has an old sticky tire of the right size.

@Joe Hillmann here's some pics of the setup. The reason for this is I needed to reverse the engine rotation and gear down.
First pic is from the tailgunner position, as you can see I need suction hooked up  :D. Oh, and if you have a Belsaw without the moodnacreek outboard feed, thread a spare feed belt in and wire it to the frame around the mandrel when you have to change, buys you a free change later. That's it on the rail in front of the tire.


This is from the offside, you can see the pines in the background, not large to be causing trouble already. You can see the chains and come-alongs I'm using to pull it tight for now.


 



Close up, The pto end of the engine with its 12x12 flat belt pulley snugged up to the tire. @apm was running the mill with the engine turned around and at the end of the mill with a long flat belt. That has plenty of traction but the engine would be in the way for my layout which is why I was trying this way.


 

I remember somebody posting a link in the past year or so to a PTO that has a reverse (normal tractor) rotation and 1100 and 540 rpm outputs, anyone remember that post? That might be another way that's cheaper than fabbing it up or driving all the way to Doug's.

[moodnacreek]

Maybe we can get Belben back on the road and have him fetch em on back :D.  I see the extra belt wired in. [must be some oldtimer]  Frozen logs in VA. ?

[Don P]

Mike, are you making any more runs up north?
Yeah, we went into the freezer the past couple of days and were icing overnight and all morning. The mill is in a cold spot which is nice in the summer. I heard a few trees come apart and we blinked power a couple of times but didn't lose it, happily. It started melting by about 2 so I wandered down and played till 5. If it warms up a little tomorrow I need to go pump out at work again and do a small pour so the masons can get back to work, it's supposed to warm back up next week. We've been in the mud season for a month  :.

[scsmith42]

Don, back to your original question, as others mentioned you should be able to start the welder by jumping the starter from a DC welder.  Their output is around 28 volts.

When we forget to turn off the kill switch on my big loader, I jump it off from a diesel welder on DC. Works fine.

[SawyerTed]

Maybe we can get Belben back on the road and have him fetch em on back :D.  I see the extra belt wired in. [must be some oldtimer]  Frozen logs in VA. ?

I'm not but an hour or so south of Don P.  I sawed frozen logs yesterday.  They were on the north side of the hill where we still had ice and snow from last week.  Not often but occasionally we get frozen logs. 

[Don P]

Oh well, so much for wanting to snowbird it down towards Winston-Salem  :D

I've looked all over my computer, and hit the search here,  I was hoping I had saved a pic or link. I think I'm remembering that pto unit post was from Farm Show magazine and had an ad or description of the 2 speed tractor type pto.

[mike_belben]

I might make a trip in a few months but its always up in the air. 

You can probably take a disc grinder to that tread to freshen it up a bit for more traction.  They do make sticky tire compounds also.  Jegs and summit have it but i think a burnout is needed. 


If the engine goes to the other side with belt drive i think youll get traction and correct rotation. No?

[Don P]

Yes, that is the way it was driven previously with the engine at the outfeed. I'm bottled at that end but could move the dust blower, extend the roof a few feet and stick it at the infeed end.

[moodnacreek]

If you had just a little creosote, that might make the tire tacky, so I'm told.             Besides the pullies, bearings, belts, shafts and couplers I have , also a no. 3 pto , drop box about 3 to 1 ratio. With one of theses you would just belt it up probably 1 to 1. It is promised to the owner of the old Bellsaw.  However I can tell you that shaft drive to the mandrel is by far the best way. I have even seen it on big mills.  With shaft drive there is no overhung load on the sawmill [belt pull] So the only real load on the mandrel is sawing in the log. And when you want to play with the lead , you are not fighting the belt pull.

[Don P]

And when you want to play with the lead , you are not fighting the belt pull.

Boom!, that's why things started getting wonky yesterday. As I was playing with tension and pressure my cuts started going off. 

I was looking at 3:1 pto gearboxes last night for tractor pto to drive hydraulic pumps. The idea looks right but I'm not sure if they are robust enough.

[Hilltop366]

Turning the engine end to end and belt to jackshaft then shaft drive to where tire is, I think that works right in my head.

One possible issue I see is the engine cooling blower and air filter would be closer to the dust maker. 

[Tom King]

Probably wouldn't be too reliable in Texas.

[moodnacreek]

Probably wouldn't be too reliable in Texas.

The set up I keep talking about is the one I had put together after trying several twisted belt hook ups. I had gone to an 8" belt at one point but it was not good. With the engine spun around the radiator is looking at you but I never picked up any trash in it. There are always different problems in different locations. When I lived in the lone star state I don't think the wind ever stopped blowing.

[Hilltop366]

Probably wouldn't be too reliable in Texas.

Me thinks he was talking about grid power.

[yellowrosefarm]

Do they make an air powered starter for that Deutz?  Be nice to have a compressor and tank near the mill anyway.
https://airstartersdirect.com/air-starters-vs-electric-starters/ 

[moodnacreek]

An air starter with a compressor right there would be great.  At one time detroit/gmc could be had with a hydraulic starter with hand pump.

[Southside]

They do have spring starters that don't need any sort of juice at all to run.  Might be an option.

Spring starter

[moodnacreek]

Well I'll be. only saw that on a lawn mower.

[Southside]

It's all relative. I have a 13' wide lawnmower that needs at least 150 HP to run it.  ;D