Using grid power for cranking

[Don P]

I finally got the 6 cyl Deutz diesel engine mated up to the sawmill today. Scrounged around through my old batteries. I think they breed somewhere in dark corners, I found 4 dead ones  :D. The starter needs 24 volts so basically about $250 of batteries. Then I looked 6' away and there is the power panel. Is there an easy way to get 24 volts DC of enough amps to do the job and get off the batteries?

[firefighter ontheside]

I don't know, but maybe the answer is some kind of 120v starter motor instead of a converter.

[dgdrls]

Unsure of the electric question,  sorry, 


You'll have to post some photos of that Deutz and the mill.

best

D

[Ljohnsaw]

That would be some SERIOUS amperage to turn that starter.  I think an AC motor would be far cheaper than building a AC-DC converter to handle the load.  In any event, the $250 for a pair of batteries will probably be looking like a pretty good bargain ;)

[doc henderson]

a lot of military stuff runs on the 24 to 28 volts.  we used the MBUs in scouts but had a 120 V AC to 24V DC transformer.  not near the juice you need to turn over a diesel i would think.  an old military generator would possibly.  If you found some older batteries and had a batt charger with 24 V and a 200 amp start setting.  you would not want to crank it for long. 

[mike_belben]

I dont really think so Don.  Ive run corded 120VAC tools and lights on 100+ volts of DC made from an unregulated alternator but never put AC into a brushed motor.  Id be afraid it smokes the windings.




 Call your nearest truck places for the best price on a 3/8 threaded stud top group 31 batteries with 950CCA and get em before they go up.  Atleast you have cores.   The stud tops are a more durable, trouble free connection than stupid lead.




If any of your dead ones have about 8 volts min you can probably revive with a jumper box and distilled water.  Especially Deka's.  Ive got about a 60% success rate overall.  If its above 10vdc id say 80% success.  Deeper the discharge and longer its been dead the worse it is.


You need a "start" mode charger to boil the sulfates off the plates... not some little trickle toy.

[tacks Y]

Well if you need 600 amps at 24v you need 120 amps at 120v or 60 at 240v. Seems like one could make it work, or does it need a lot more amps? My electrical is way to rusty, need to trans form down and get some big diodes to make dc. Most welders are not big enough diodes to handle the amps. Sounds like a good utube search.

[Southside]

Maybe replace the starter with a 12V gear starter? Then you could use a jump charger to crank it over?

After having tried such experiments in the past with "what if I?". My personal solution now would be to just get the batteries. 

[Gere Flewelling]

Our local NAPA store sells a 12/24 volt jump pack that has a built in charger.  That might work to power your device and recharge on 115v.  Not sure how long the battery charger would work.  Likely would have to plug it in at night and leave it unplugged when using the pack.  They are about double the cost of a plain 12v jump pack.  I have used the 12v packs to power engines and small systems with good success.
I suspect any NAPA store would have access to the same device.

[moodnacreek]

I must have spent almost a grand this year on batteries .  My genset,24V needed them, that was half the expense and other machines got jealous.  One of those big ones still holds a charge but you need 2 and are far away. A couple of weak 12V's with a charger hooked up might work. Many like to keep a small charger hooked up all the time but that always caused fast corossion for me.  

[btulloh]

Interesting question, Don P.  

It SEEMS like 120/240v starters would be something that's available although a quick search didn't turn up any.

It SEEMS like a big ol' stick welder might have enough juice to do the job.

It SEEMS like you could make a 120v starter by using the shaft, bendix, and mounting plate off a starter, coupling to a gear reduction box, coupled to a 1hp 120v motor.  (Some machining required.)

It SEEMS like a line-powered pony motor could be rigged up.

"SEEMS like" is a fuzzy phrase that's a long way from practical reality.  But sometimes things can work out.

Maybe a couple car batteries in series and a 24V jump box that Gere Flewelling mentioned could work.

It sure takes a lot of big expensive batteries to keep life moving forward.  SEEMS like I'm always buying batteries for something and gets expensive.  (I had 16 batteries on the same life cycle I had to replace in a three month period a couple years ago.  Whew!)

[mike_belben]

Or just get batteries and take care of them.  Ive tried every which way to rub 2 nickels and really dead batteries just arent it.  Theyll waste more of your future time and by then, cost more of your future money.  I dread buying new batteries until i do then regret the time wasted fiddling due to my reluctance to just buy them. 

[Dave Shepard]

I think Mike's got the right idea. I get group 31 batteries at the local-ish Navistar dealer. Any other approach is going to be much more than the batteries and probably not as good a solution.

[farmfromkansas]

3 of my tractors have 2 batteries, I just replace the expensive JD batteries with the same size from the bulk battery dealer.  My newest JD 7130 tractor had a special battery you had to buy from the dealer, I just took it to the battery guys, and they sold me a big battery that fits a diesel truck. Price was right and has had a good life.  The early 4020 JD tractors had 24 volt starters and used 2-12 volt batteries, just have to hook them up right.  

[farmfromkansas]

Think the best use of the grid power would be to keep a battery tender on your batteries, I get years out of lawn mower batteries when I keep a tender going on them.

[mike_belben]

The economy of scale in semi batteries has driven the price down into the honda civic price range.  Maybe 6 months ago i was still able to get them for $99 + core.  950cca group31 generics.. Cheapest cca/$ out there.  


Before buying a random pail of cable crimps at the scrap yard, i used to make them out of a scrap of hard or soft copper to fit the wire gauge.  Smash a flat then drill a hole,  slobber some flux onto old arc stinger cables and smash the crimp on with 2 hammers if i have to do it in place and theres nothing to dolly it over.  Then solder with a bottle torch.  



I usually shine up the commutator on old starter and check the brushed too. 
You wont believe how fast stuff cranks with a new truck battery, fat new wires, good soldered copper lugs and clean starter.  I mean fast.  


Dont forget to sand up the mounting flanges and ground wires.  Add them if needed.  Steel is a poor circuit.  

[Andries]

. . . . Is there an easy way to get 24 volts DC of enough amps to do the job and get off the batteries?

Mike and company have great advice re battery care and maintenance, but if you're stationary and have a power panel right there, there's a simple answer. . . . .
We have a bit of cold up here, and the service centres for highway trucks all use a wheeled battery charger/jumper carts.



Costs a bit of money, but buy once, plug it in, and kiss your ^%$#@! batteries goodbye.
These produce up to 125A at 24v. which you could leave bolt to the starter leads for your Deutz.

[mike_belben]

I considered suggesting that but can only remember trying to start something on jump mode once unsuccessfully forever ago where there was no battery at all. Have they gotten better?

Maybe alligator clamps just cant transfer enough amps?

[Andries]

What I see here in Canada, those truck stop jump carts are all plugged into electrical outlets and have power enough to start anything. Some do have batteries in them, most don't. 
They are battery chargers that can be switched over to jump starters. I figured for Don, switch it to 24v. jump start and bolt the cables to the Deutz. And leave it there.
.
In Winnipeg, organizations that have a few hundred cars parked outside usually have a battery jump cart available for "no-start" help. Where I worked, there was a sensitive soul who would partially un-plug a vehicle if she thought that she had been dissed. Talk about passive aggressive issues!
Anyhoooo, for the past two weeks we've had weather that feels like a personal insult when you step outside. The small booster packs about the size of a half shoebox work great. My son has lent me his for about a week and its saved our bacon. 12v only, and not enough grunt for a diesel.
However, for DonP, the big charger-booster carts seem to fit his request. Alligator clamps are like booster cables. You get what you pay for. ElCheapo ones will get you frostbite and dead vehicles, good ones ($) work like a charm.

[Don P]

I was looking at those carts last night wondering if they had the oomph. It SEEMS like it would work ;D.

I did get 2 good enough batteries hooked to it temporarily today. It had been a year, or maybe two since it had run, I had disconnected the fuel tank to move it all in so wasn't really optimistic but lo and behold 3 short cranks of a few seconds each, this thing has no glow plugs or air heat and it was about freezing temp, she lit right off  8).  The tire I have on the saw mandrel to reverse rotation and "gear" it down needs balancing but it sawed a smallish pine log well, woohoo! I need to change oil (almost $100 for 5 gals today  ) then hook the suction back up, get the exhaust up through the roof, put a full set of teeth in the saw and then try some healthier logs to see if it has the traction to run this way. Big diesel, turbo whine and no bog, it's no 35 hp massey but I think it'll do.

[moodnacreek]

So that's what your doing, I remember now, friction driving a Bellsaw [?].  That engine should be more than enough but I would be surprised if you transmit the power you have. And be careful not to bend the mandrel, I did that already. My Bellsaw was powered by a v8 ford that I belted to a shaft mounted parallel to the engine and connected to the mandrel through a car drive shaft. The terminal connection was keyed and taperlocked, something we made up. When the Bellsaw left here all the stuff mentioned stayed as it runs off a tractor pto now.  Too bad we are not closer , hate to see this stuff get junked.

[Don P]

That's it, yeah there's about 90 hp there now. Don't junk that stuff yet, that's pretty much what I was thinking if this slips. There is now a hub on the mandrel with a 11.5" wide x 32" tire on it. The PTO on the Deutz has a 12"wide x 12" dia flat belt pulley. It didn't seem to slip yet but I doubt I had more than 10" in the pine log at any time. I'll keep easing up and see what it can handle. I wonder what a gummy slick costs  :D.

[farmfromkansas]

Our local NAPA store is having an oil and filter sale right now, they quoted me 9$ a gallon in 5's, for NAPA 15-40 diesel oil.  Ordered a bunch of filters and oil for the farm tractors.  Said the oil is Valvoline.

[moodnacreek]

Don, what saw are you using? Mine ran a 46" style 3 w/ 32 teeth. I figured the v8 was putting 60 to 70 hp to it. I had the feed geared up some. If you can get most of you power to the saw you will have plenty. When you have plenty of power then you concentrate on the little things; the filing , the lead etc. and the mill runs better than ever. 

[Don P]

That sounds like the same blade, I'm running every other tooth because of the low hp I had, the "missing" teeth I ground the sides off of and lowered so they were out of the cut circle but sharp. That blade has an internal blister in one area and is about done. I have a 36 and a 48", that one will go in at some point probably sooner than later but I'll need to move guides and check the pit.