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Rough Opening Designs in Log walls

Started by kantuckid, January 10, 2022, 05:41:21 PM

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kantuckid

On my own home I used rough sawed 8/4 pine, 2x8's and slots in that frame with headspace above for log settling.
 I'm looking at an Amish commercial log builder who uses vertical 3"x3"x1/4" thick steel angles in slots cut into log ends that fasten to and hold the rough frame and said to help keep the logs aligned as well. Tightwad me is thinking a 1/8 or 3/16 angle would suffice. While I sort of like the idea, my home has been around since 1979 and no misaligned logs. They and I used stacklog construction.
Has anyone used that setup? 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Don P

All of the above, well 2x2 x1/4" angle, a skillsaw cuts 2-1/4 deep... and old bedframe angle iron on one  :D. Another was a molded T profile made from fairly heavy, maybe 4x material originally, the visible buck was around 2", the "T" was a heavy 2x2 in section.

kantuckid

China melted down most of those old bed frames and much more? :D 
I did see some too far away steel on FB Marketplace though, lots in IN not KY. Box stores seem to carry lighter gauge steel & Metal Depot's pricey in small amounts. 
I've got the wood, esp. poplar from storms-may stick with it.  
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

jake pogg

I don't know,gents,if it's worth messing about with steel in a predominantly wooden structure,where a 2"x2"-sh spline would suffice(and be only a fraction more labor,maybe).

Steel and wood are poorly compatible,condensation,rust,all sorts of issues may come up,depending on climate and humidity and all that.
Really these two should be gasketed apart by some impermeable material(like using tar paper in between steel girders and the wooden structural members adjoining...

Plus all the bother of a different tool kit,drilling,countersinking,fasteners...
Properly,the splines float in the opening,with the window or door-box fastened to the spline...Steel just introduces these extra hassles...(i think).

This last structure i splined as it was going up-i wanted the spline recesses to house some electrical runs(switches by the doors especially),and it worked fine.
But even if left until the very last,running out a mortise with a small chainsaw/cleaning up with a chisel is not That big a deal,usually takes less than a day for an entire house...  
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

kantuckid

Those Amish use a chainsaw to groove for the steel angles in openings after logs are up. 
 As for steel and compatibility with wood, it does hold lots of wood buildings together in far smaller sizes called nails?  :D
Not that I don't see the 2x2 working for a window or door OK. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Don P

This was one with 2x2x1/4" angle in a groove. The buck was troughed out for the steel as well. Nails with washers in slots hold the bucks in place. The flat between the flare in the log and the buck is the thickness of the trim.

Electrical there was drilled in the logs as we stacked, not stuck behind the buck lurking and waiting for a trim nail, BTDT  :D.



 

I understand Jake's point but can point to some mighty old steel holding wooden stuff together, the lowly lightweight metal connected truss comes to mind. High condensation area, tiny teeth, over a half century of widespread use yet no widespread failures from sweating and decay. Leaks and dirt are what kills most buildings I play with. The steel is stronger and "slipperier" here but it isn't a big deal either way IMO.

kantuckid

My metal, standing seam house roofing came in 2x4 crates, standing on edges, using those pressed on truss fasteners.
I, being the tightwad that I am, demoed the crates to reclaim the 2x4's. I can attest that they are not fun at all to remove! If the Amish had been able to haul them, no doubt they'd have done so.
A few of those little teeth remain and my stock of 2x4's is huge. Couple hundred short ones and few with lengths to 14' plus.
Odds are that I'll use wood rough frames as they are nearly free. The MT Amish log builders do cut a chainsaw bevel on the outside end/edges of all wall openings. 
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Don P

The difference in light inside the day we cut the window flares is pretty dramatic. As the walls get thicker its well worth doing. 

It's up to old farts outside temp  :D

Joe Hillmann

Quote from: Don P on January 12, 2022, 10:24:52 AM
The difference in light inside the day we cut the window flares is pretty dramatic. As the walls get thicker its well worth doing.

It's up to old farts outside temp  :D
Getting off topic, but how do you trim out the window with those flares?

Stephen1

I believe I used metal T Bars for my windows and doors.
IDRY Vacum Kiln, LT40HDWide, BMS250 sharpener/setter 742b Bobcat, TCM forklift, Sthil 026,038, 461. 1952 TEA Fergusan Tractor

kantuckid

Quote from: Joe Hillmann on January 12, 2022, 11:53:49 AM
Quote from: Don P on January 12, 2022, 10:24:52 AM
The difference in light inside the day we cut the window flares is pretty dramatic. As the walls get thicker its well worth doing.

It's up to old farts outside temp  :D
Getting off topic, but how do you trim out the window with those flares?
Trim attaches to the window casing on my home's windows, (openings not beveled) having flare means that trim's narrower-perhaps. My Pellas for my cabin are the newer alu over wood outside and all wood inside. They have plenty of outer surfaces to work with.  
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Don P

I think I put that pic in my gallery about 20 years ago, the house was 30. I'll try to find the album when I quit. Nearly 50 today  8)

kantuckid

Yea boy, this is our only window to load up for FL. I need some time with my seat heater and refresh my farmers tan. Hard enough to haul all the stuff to FL but this trip has my sliding miter saw, air compressor, nail guns, air hoses and much more headed for first stop in TN so my engineer son can play at replacing a 1930 built stairway in his home in lala land. It's amazing the plans these guys can lay out for a basic job. I think he sent me a 11 step plan of attack! :D Was gonna buy a track saw and so on. 
I told him he couldn't "have a plan" until he pulled the broken oak treads to see why they broke, etc.
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Don P

The workmanship on those old ones can be amazing, either way  :D. Safe travels. We've got 8-12" predicted this weekend.

Found a few pics of the windows on that house. I scanned, cropped and blew up the windows so its fuzzy old pics but hopefully an idea.



 

 

These do not look like finned windows, for those you might have to attach a 2x "buck" behind the fin, glued and screwed to the jamb as backup for the exterior trim. Then a gap, then the 2x buck for the logs. The exterior vertical casing would nail from window flange to the square recess formed by the buck and the log. There is a top "buck" nailed to the underside of the upper log. It is the width of the outside dimension of the window casings. The upper trim nails to that and it slides down over the lower trim. After settlement is done you can nail all that together.

I found one more of an upper window, this was ~5" thick log siding above the 8' level. The logs (siding) were spiked together and also toenailed to the studs of the second story. The log profile was the same but we didn't need to worry about settlement headpsace. The trim became a regular picture frame. And now you've met Michelle, I couldn't make her out till I blew up that part of the pic. She's cussing a blue streak and nailing in the last few T&G soffit boards in prep for the log siding on that dormer wall behind her. 


 




kantuckid

Thanks.
 The upper log siding idea on my small cabins gables will be oak board & battens instead. 
That rectangle sash did give me an idea! I was just this minute hunting for a smallish bathroom window on FB Marketplace. I have one old but unused single wood sash unit that could be turned on end & hinged to act as that sort of window and I'd make a simple screen for ventilation.  
Our home has a double, 3' short of room length, dormer with a spot (same pitches too) just like where Michelle's hands are->a kind of hard to get to spot where the bats liked it so well I had to crawl up there and foam it. Now all wrapped in steel which the wood bees cannot eat so well, and the bats gave up and left too. I never could hear them to begin with but I still got the nod to foam that spot.  :D
My headspaces are done the same as the pics. 
Here, we either get off & escape the hill or stay until snows gone.  
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Don P

I really need to make a grocery carry all for the dozer  ;D

jake pogg

Quote from: Don P on January 12, 2022, 06:35:17 PMThese do not look like finned windows, for those you might have to attach a 2x "buck" behind the fin, glued and screwed to the jamb as backup for the exterior trim. Then a gap, then the 2x buck for the logs. The exterior vertical casing would nail from window flange to the square recess formed by the buck and the log. There is a top "buck" nailed to the underside of the upper log. It is the width of the outside dimension of the window casings. The upper trim nails to that and it slides down over the lower trim. After settlement is done you can nail all that together.


Nice job,i like that generous allowance for settlement(especially above that door).

What i Don't see however are those shingled birch bark sheets that should curl over the sill/under the window buck,to drain away all the driven moisture+condensate likely to accumulate on the glass... 

:)
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

Don P

Good eye, and there was a callback on one of the windows on that side, driven rain, our sill detail sucked. What do you think? A subsill over a rubber membrane, sloped out beyond the logs, full flare width?

jake pogg

Quote from: Don P on January 13, 2022, 09:20:33 PMA subsill over a rubber membrane, sloped out beyond the logs, full flare width?


Golly...A Really good question...:(

That subsill would have to conform to the flare width+shape,and come out past(and be kerfed on the underneath to break the capillary...).
I'm scared of rubber or plastic underneath,but you're probably right.
Beads of seal for sure,some high-stretch acrylic goop sealing the entire thing,against the window,down both slopes against the flare surfaces,and underneath just in case it Does capillary...

Don,i'm sure you're a Vastly better designer/builder,i'd be happy to see what you may come up with.

I've only done about what's described above-no flare,the bottom sill integral to the window box,window trim proud of the wall-logs...

But on one building,20-some years ago,i didn't do that.Large "picture" window,+deficient overhang(my part were logs only),+exposure to prevailing winds And south.
As a result i'm loosing that section of the wall below that window,the entire 5'.
Discussing with the owners turning it into a set of French doors,but it feels awful...:(  
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

ScottCC

In log walls where the length of logs is short between openings, say 1', and the load is substantial from above the steel can help.  Sometimes the logs will bow from the load above and monkey with the window/door.  Usually in eave walls where a header for loads can not be created with further courses of logs from above.  Lots of times from several openings side by side.  The steel if sized right can prevent the bow.  Hard to get a 2X not to bow over time in this case.  In general though just use wood bucks properly and all is well.
Necessity is the mother of invention.  Poverty is its big brother.  WM mp100, WM eg100, WM sp4000 chip extractor,  WM 260 molder on order ,WM electric  lt15 wide with extra track, 71 Oliver allterrain forklift, 26' flat bed trailer, road legal log arch, homemade kiln, AutoCAD lt15

jake pogg

Quote from: ScottCC on January 19, 2022, 06:48:19 AMIn log walls where the length of logs is short between openings, say 1', and the load is substantial from above the steel can help.  Sometimes the logs will bow from the load above and monkey with the window/door.  Usually in eave walls where a header for loads can not be created with further courses of logs from above.  Lots of times from several openings side by side.  The steel if sized right can prevent the bow.  Hard to get a 2X not to bow over time in this case.  In general though just use wood bucks properly and all is well.


I had to read this a couple-three times to try to wrap my pea-brain around it...

I must say that the situations described,Such short lengths of log between windows/absence of header are SO inadequate,in SO many ways,that attempting to use splines in openings as load-bearing members seems entirely weird...:(

The splines in openings of a log-wall are NOT for transferring the roof-load,it just ain't what them's For,boss,sorry...  
"You can teach a pig anything,it just takes time;but what's time to a pig?"
Mark Twain

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