The Forestry Forum

The purpose of this post is to point out what may be some good opportunities in Oklahoma.
Except for the eastern part of the state there is not a whole lot of logging and sawmilling going on. But I think there could be in the rest of the state.
There is a report out called "A strategy for  Control and Utilization of Invasive Juniper Species in Oklahoma"  "Final report of the "Redcedar Task Force"" chaired by Bob Drake, Oklahoma Farm Bureau, Davis, Ok. and Paul Todd, Ok. Redcedar Association, Oklahoma City, Ok. for Dennis V. Howard Secretary of Agriculture and Brian C. Griffin Secretary of Environment.

One of the paragraphs that jumped out at me when I read it was " The USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) estimates that eight million acres in Ok are currently infested with at least 50 juniper trees per acre.  The encroachment is increasing at an estimated rate of 762 acres a day or nearly 300,000 acres per year. NRCS estimates that $157 million is needed to address current conservation treatments involving juniper control.

This is a 54 page booklet packed with information on the control and possible economic uses of redcedar. I believe the booklet is available at Oklahoma Dept. of Agriculture, Food and Forestry, PO Box 528804, Oklahoma City, Ok 73152-8804

I have personally flown over the Canadian River and Cimmaron River basins northwest of Oklahoma City almost to Woodward. What Paul Todd and I saw from that small plane was amazing. There are square miles of cedar.

Research has been done on two counties Payne and Dewey using satellite data and ground checking to get a handle on actual cedar coverage. If my memory is correct in Payne Co there is over 9000 acres covered at 70 to 100 per cent, 34,000 acres covered at 30 to 70 per cent and another 40,000 acrea covered at 10 to 30 per cent. My son and I have actually driven around using the Payne Co map and this is a conservative estimate.

I have heard it said the cedar is the number one ecological problem in Ok. It is a tremendous fire hazard and health hazard with the tremendous amounts of pollen given off by female trees.
There are two basic growth forms for the cedar in Ok. The upland or range grown cedar is fast growing and is as wide as it is tall. There is very little sawlog value. The hillside cedar or canyon cedar as it is called is as good as any in the US. The trees are tall, straight and have sound hearts. There are several sawmills in Ok using some cedar, producing a good product. I visited one near Geary Ok and saw some of the finest fencing ever made. Estimates are from 1 to 4 billion (yes billion) board feet of sawlog cedar. Does this not look like opportunity.

I believe  there is tremendous opportunity to use this cedar rather than cut it down, push it up and burn it at an expense of 60 to 150 dollars per acre. To this extent, my son and I have invested in equipment to grind these down and dried trees into mulch. So I have put my money where my mouth is so to speak.  We have been well received in Ok and have received lots of assistance in making a good go of our project.

There is an Oklahoma Redcedar Association chaired by Paul Todd. The goal of this organization is to promote the use of Ok redcedar and connect landowners, loggers, sawyers, woodworking companies and anyone else that would want to be involved in any way.  The Association is more than willing to help anyone interested in Ok redcedar.

Those that know me can verify that I can talk cedar 24/7. I hope this post has stirred some entreprenuerial interest in those of you who lay awake at night thinking of a new business.

So who in OK is willing to ship me a flatbed load of logs?  Im interested in all I can get if the price is fair.  

Problem seems to be getting it out of the state may cost more than its worth.  

Hey Arkansawyer, OK not to far from your part of the country.  Their cedar much different than yours?  

I need some but its just not available from any loggers in my parts.

Kirk, the problem as I see it is that there are no good steady markets for large volumes of cedar in Ok. If there was an efficient mill that just made cants, mulched the slabs, they could make a go of it.  It is going to take someone in Ok to take the chance to set up the mill and organize several logging crews. Then you could call up and ask for a load of cants  to resaw for your customers. Another problem is that there are few people that have worked in the sawmill or logging industry to draw on. So everyone would have to be trained from the start.  

It sure sounds like some great opportunities are afoot out there, Cedarman. :)  I've been thinking for some time now, that we should be looking closer at rot resistant species to reduce the reliance on pressure treating. Oklahoma may be holding part of the answer to the problem, if they will only take advantage of it.

You may have answered part of your own question, in Devo's thread. What about rail transport to get some of those logs to where they are wanted/needed?

Are the cedars out there 2 different species, as they are here? We have the Juniperous Virginianna that grows tall and straight and is referred to as Juniper, but the shorter, bushy one is always called Cedar, though it is actually a Juniper. Both are getting hard to get commercially around here.

Checked out your website. Nice! :)  Where is your Alabama mill?  I looked for that little town in my atlas, but it wasn't shown. :-/

DanG,  Boligee is a little town about 50 miles SW of Tuscaloosa just south of the interstate.  It is the next town down the road from Eutaw.
We have looked at rail for transporting logs from Texas to Indiana or Alabama.  The railroads seem to be the problem. There is a big producer in Texas that said the rates were good and we had sidings near Boligee and Marengo IN.  We have looked at moving mulch from Ok, but it is tough. I saw where they were able to move pulpwood from New York to Pa, I think, by rail and it worked for them. It does bear investigation.

There are several species of cedar in Ok.  Aromatic red cedar is most prevalent, but Ashe Juniper covers a big area south of Ok City.  One of the conservation people from Davis Ok took me on a tour of the Arbuckle mountains.  We hiked up one of those hills and there laid out in all directions was 4000 acres of Ashe Juniper. It is a bushy sort of tree that you would be hard pressed to get a saw log out of.  But it was thick. Looked like 100 per cent ground cover except for some bulldozed lanes.  The wood is a tan color.  Trees were about 15 feet high.  She told me that older ranchers had told her that this was all rangeland with nothing but grass 40 to 50 years ago, but since Smoky the Bear showed up no fires were allowed to burn. Just a few years ago a big fire got out of control just south of the mountains and burned several homes.Even had wrecks on the Interstate.  This cedar is free for the taking if someone could figure out out to harvest and mulch it.

There is also some salt cedar, but I know nothing about it.

I'm always in the pink when I'm sawing cedar.

WOW!!!
Never really considered moving to OK, but...................
So who owns the property all this is on?
That booklet you mentioned, is that advailable to out of state parties

Furby,the booklet is available to anyone.  The goal of the association is to get as many as possible to help solve this infestation problem.  

The first properties that we are working on are what are called school lands overseen by the comissioners of the land (COL).
The Feds are soliciting bids for clearing about 20 acres at the Chickasaw Recreation Area.  I heard a rumor that they have budgeted about 1000 dollars per acre, but that could be high. These 20 acres are covered with a solid stand of cedar.  They must be cut off at ground level and removed from the site.
The vast amount of land is privately owned.  Believe me the people we have talked to are more than glad to have  someone remove the cedar.

I have sawed more cedar this year than the previous 10 years with my mill.  Course I didn't have any idea what to do with it or how to price so got a little guidance from couple FF members. Spent a little time googleing (is that a word?) to find uses also.  Got some I need to log in NW Arkansas so your post was quite interesting.  Haytrader has written about huge canyon trees....ripe for the picking out in Kansas.  

Did a little digging and found the book ya was talking about.  PDF file but it loads pretty fast even on dialup.

www.oda.state.ok.us/forms/forestry/rcstf.pdf

Thanks Cedarman

  I have to agree with Kirk Allen . I would like to cut some on the mill but gettin it here is cost prohibitive . I quess for the time being I'll have to keep cuttin the weed trees we have here . Like cherry  ,yellow poplar ,red oak , white oak and ash. :D

So I'm understanding you to say that most of the stuff is yours for the taking, but no pay involved for removal in most cases?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm...........................
Gonna do some thinkin............ ;)

Furby, the trees have taken over the rangeland because of lack of fire.  The landowners consider the trees a problem because where they grow, no grass grows.  They pay 50 to 150 dollars per acre to have the trees cut , piled and burned.  Last December, I counted 6 big plumes of smoke in the Payne Co area.  Now most of these cedars are big bushy type things with lots of long limbs sticking out.  But there are others especially growing on the sandstone ground that are nice loggable trees.

So if it is costing the landowner money to remove and someone wants to do it for free.  Well, what would you do?

It takes a big investment in equipment and a lot of phone work to line up sales.  If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.  The easy part is getting the rights to cut the cedar.

I see what you are saying.
I'm thinking there would also be a bit of costs involved to have a staging or storage area someplace. I'd guess you could work right from the area you are clearing for the most part, but sooner or later ya going to need to stage some stuff a little longer, right?

Furby,we will either run the mulch directly over the top of the trucks or run it into gooseneck trailers with dump beds.  We have a big portable conveyor capable of handling mulch quickly. Goal is to load a truck from the grinder in one hour or to load from a pile in less than a half an hour.

We can stockpile mulch near the conveyor when trucks are not available.  It is a 40 foot conveyor so it can reach out.

Ok, I read the booklet!
There is a bit of info in there that I disagree with, but I'll leave that a side for now.

If ya don't mind though Cedarman, I have some questions for ya. If ya don't want to let anything loose though, that's cool.
I reread this thread a couple of times and I see that you are chipping stuff that is already cut and dried, right?
Why?
What are ya doing with the stuff you are chipping?
The booklet was dated 2002, what if anything has the state started to move forward with this issue since then?
What kind of "help" is the state offering to get things going that you know of?

Ya really do have me thinking on this, and your statement "if it was easy, everybody would be doing it", has me thinking even more.

I remember driving through that part of the country a couple years a go and really enjoyed the landscape. Never once though that it may not be all it seemed. ::)

Now ya got me to thinking. Hurts to this time of night.

Sounds like there may be opportunity there, enough of us get our heads togather could come up with a good plan of attack, sounds like plenty to go around. Still a lot angles to look at.

Cedarman, sure sounds like you done your homework.

We make a good bit of mulch at our mill in Indiana and my son's mill in Alabama, so we know what the mulch companies want.  If you grind fresh cut trees with green needles you get a mess.  If the trees are dried out, you get a nice dry mulch.  We worked with a grinder company to get the process right.
We have everything sold as it hits the trucks, so we do not have to worry about marketing what we are making so far. I made sure we had contracts before we got too deep.  We had two different mulch companies send reps to check the first load and they were very pleased with the product and ordered immediately.
I do not know is the state will help. I did talk to the Sec. of Ag to see if he could get the state to back the banks to make loans.  The banks would not loan us money.  We had to get creative.
There may be some grants available.  What is needed in a big way is a mill capable of buying anything that people wanted to cut.  I just talked with a guy near Pratt Ks that is cutting 2500 acres and he said he can sell a few loads to some local mills, but they fill up quick.  

If we could get some manufacturers to locat in Ok that would be great, but why would they do that if there are no mills. And there has to be markets for mills to locate in Ok.  Chicken and Egg thing.
We started in mulch because we know there is a huge resource, we figured out how to make it efficiently, and we contracted markets.

Furby, I am very curious as to the points you do not find favor with in the booklet. It is a fascinating booklet though, very thought provoking.

Well I do have to agree that it has a lot of info.
It's not that I disagree with the booklet, just that I look at things a little differently.

There is an overwhelming push for use of fire as THE control method. I understand that, and agree that there is a time and place for it's use. I also understand why they are pushing, due to the misconceptions that are out there. I think they do indeed need to try and change those misconceptions. I think fire is a great way to HELP control things, but I feel the booklet had too much emphisis on the use of fire and the fact that it was THE solution. You yourself are a prime example that there are other ways that do work. This overrun of the cedars didn't come up overnight, and you can't just come into this and try to fix things overnight like some folks belive fire will.

Another thing was the push for removal of cedars near neighborhoods and houses. I understand the need to reduce the fire hazards with combustibles near houses, but by implementing a program as such, you start giving ground to the insurance industry as well as townships and neighboorhood associations, to ban all instances of the plants and others like them. That I belive is another freedom one should have in property ownership, the right to choose what if any plants are allowed to grow on their property and not have to pay fees and fines in order to do so. These cedars are native plants to the area. Banning them isn't right, but I can see that happening all to easily.

The other issue I have is with the direction that they feel they need to start removal of the cedars in areas of new and or young growth. While there may be advantages by doing so, it makes a lot more sense to start with older, heavier growth areas. Not only would the plants removed be more useable, but it will more quickly reduce the amount invasive mass, and reduce the amount of pollen and seeds spread. The younger less overcrowded areas most likely have not reached the age where they have seeds to spreed. By the time the older growth is reduced, the younger growth have obtained a much more useable size and are more worthwhile to remove.
It's really hard to put a fire out by just spraying water at it's edges. Sooner or later ya have to attack the heart.
I know that goes against what people who are slowly having their fields and pastures over taken belive, but it really is a much more efective approach to the situation.

I also would like some assurance that the plan would not eventually lead to complete and total eradication of the cedars from the state.



Now, the mulch you are selling is being used as mulch, correct?
I really do have several ideas to get things moving. I currently don't have enough capital to start something. I also see that the booklet says there IS state money available, but I assume it's not easy to get. That needs to change if they reallly want this to work.
The booklet lists mulch way up on the list. The problem I see is letting them dry. I'm guessing someone is going in and cutting, then they are allowed to lay as is until dry enough, then you move in. Would that be right?

Personally I really like the bio mass idea in this situation. But I do see the roadblocks that are there. ::)

Furby, thanks for the response.  Let me address some of your issues as I see them.  In the good old days, fire swept the praries confining the cedar to the canyons, washes and other areas that fire did not get into.  So cedar was always there, it just wasn't up on the flatlands.

Most of this land is used as pasture for cattle and horse operations and with the cedar moving in, it can no longer be productive land for that.

The magnitude of the invasion is the problem as I see.  Over 700 acres per day encroachment.  We will be using 10 acres at the most.

The cedars must dry for 2 months or so during the summer and much longer if cut during winter.  The mulch is usuable just as it is.

Also I believe it could be used as boiler fuel, if close enough to an end user.

I agree with you that people should be allowed to plant and grow what they want.  I believe the emphasis is on thinning the cedars near subdivisions rather than total removal.  

I totally agree that fire is needed, just not pushed so hard as the main solution.

My issue with allowing the trees to dry before you mulch them is the increased fire hazard they pose. In your small operation it's not that big of concern, but the booklet did have the mulch operations high on the list and if lots of small operations were to start doing that, that could become a big issue.
I understand you are doing it the way you need to and I'm not trying to go against that.

The thinning is were it starts..............once insurance companies start in the mix...........it could go anyplace. Oklahoma may not have as high of population as some other states, but I'm sure there are more then a few neighborhood groups that would be miseducated and ban them from the neighborhood as well.

The 700 acres a day thing is exactly why there is a need to start in the heaviest areas of older growth. If it takes 10 years for a red cedar to reach sexual maturity, it just don't pay to start cutting the younger trees when you can be reducing the 700 acres a day and then some buy cutting trees that are already spreading seed.

I wonder why it would not be feasible to saw the saw logs into lumber right there and market it in the fast population growth states of Arizona, Colorado and New Mexico?  Even process it into some kinds of finish goods – like closet lining.

I've had a few sales of cedar that wasn't local and it went to Colorado and Arizona.  

I was thinking along those lines, just bit more involved. Just don't really want to let the cat out of the bag until I'm sure it won't work! ;D

Bibbyman, there are several very good small sawmills in Ok making some very nice lumber.  Also there are several people making some very nice finished cedar products.  They would love to expand to handle those markets.  I may be wrong but I think they have not hit on the correct way to market their products. Cedar closet lining  or T&G paneling is not that difficult to make and sure is a good way to do value added. You can use short lengths also. One of the goals of the Redcedar Assoc is to help in this area.

Also I think it is tough to step out in an area where there is not a lot of local support. If you have trouble , you just can't run down to the next mill and get some help figuring out the problem, because there is no other mill close by.

Another problem is capital. Try going into a bank and borrowing money for a logging operation or sawing operation. There is no one that has a clue what you are talking about. We found that out first hand.

 I would think that if you went into a bank in Mi. or Mo. with a proprosal, there would be someone that could analyse it and help you through any area you might have overlooked. They would know if you were on the right track or not.IMHO

Another business could be cedar shavings. It is not too expensive to set up a shaving mill and market. Still, it takes someone who knows how to make shavings and how to market them.  You would definetly have a leg up on transportation toward the west. Look how many bags go through Wal-Mart alone.

Furby, I think they have promoted fire because it is not too expensive, does the job and they just have not got other alternatives.  One way of burning is to burn the entire fields just like old times.  The other way is to cut the cedars, let them dry, push them in piles and burn when the time is right. In flying over and driving through the cedar areas, the magnitude of the cedar coverage is overwhelming. In Payne Co 20 years ago, it was estimated that only about 100 acres had 70 to 100 percent foliar coverage. Now the acreage is over 9000.

The problem with cedars, fire and houses is that some people are just not very smart in where they build and how they manage the surrounding vegetation.

There are large tracts of cedar cut each year. The cedars are left laying in the field until such time as they are pushed up and burned. We are going around to these fields and gathering them with a skid steer and moving them to the grinder. There is a fire danger, but it is not that high.  Most of these tracts of cedar are 40 to 640 acres and they are rather rural with very few buildings around.

Haytrader, what do you think from your perspective?

One of the things I'm trying to do is stir up thought on this subject.

I don't think I can argue with any of that! ;)

What ya said about the banks, any idea what a bank in MI would be able to swing, by way of talking to or promting a bank in OK? I'm thinking that even though the banks in OK have trouble wrapping their brains around sawmills and such, that the state "should" be able to help streighten them out and maybe do a little teaching. Know what I'm trying to say?

We went to three banks with a full blown business plan and two letters of guaranteed sales and were turned down.  We had two bank officials from one bank at the grinding site, watching a full load of mulch being made and talked with one of our customers.  Those two went to bat for us, but could not convince the man with the ink pen to sign.  We went to my son's bank in Al and they gave us a substantial loan based on our past history and our plan.  They understood. But that is one hurdle that has to be crossed to get started in Ok. I did mention to the Secretary of Agriculture that is one thing that is needed in Ok to help get things going. He just happened to be at a meeting in Stillwater where they unveiled the two new maps of cedar infestation in Payne and Dewey Co.

Around home we have a lot of ERC.  It is a very invasive species, and will take over a pasture in short notice.  Every summer, we spend a couple weeks clearing pasture of the bigger cedars, and especially any female ones-the ones with the blue berries on them.  When I get home, I know that there are several people that want their pastures cleaned out.  They are used to paying a dozer around 200 and hour to remove the large cedars.  There are some people out there that do nothing but remove the cedars from the pasture, and get about 80 an acre for it.  Just wish that they wernt so brushy, the lumber that I have cut from them is very nice, but getting a sawlog from them is harder work than getting one from a nice oak.

Charles

Have saw...will travel Charles.  Your not that far away when you get home and if them cedars get to far out of control...got a friend with one of those shear machines.

Thanks Larry.

Our neighbor has a shear for his skidloaders, which we borrow a lot, since we share a lot of equipment.  The problem that we get into is that most of what we are clearing is 3-4" dia small stuff, that the shear is overkill for.  Then there is the patch that i have to clear around sabetha, which has been left for over 50 years.  Lots of smaller oak and hickory, around 12" dbh, and lots of cedars that are around 16"dbh.  I dont want to shear those off, since our shear usually tears up the bottom foot or so of the log.  I just know that I will have a lot of work cut out for me when I do get home.

Charles

Furby are the gears still grinding ???

Oh Yeah!
Got an idea to toss out, give me a bit longer. ;)

There is a guy advertising on Woodplanet for mega truckloads of ERC that are doweled down to 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 inches.  He has a good business in Miami making borders using pine peeler posts, but they mold on him so he is looking for something else.

There are places in the cedar belt that has many acres of what I call pole cedar. Cedar that grows thick and tall but does not have great diameter.

There are doweling machines out there that can make these poles quickly and some are portable.
There is an outfit in Montana that has a nice one, but its about 100,000.00

The shavings could be marketed or reground and sold as mulch.

Just another opportunity to think about.

Quote from: Cedarman on January 23, 2005, 05:05:01 AM
If you grind fresh cut trees with green needles you get a mess.

Cedarman,
Could you give me a little more info on this statement?
I'm not talking about making mulch, just grinding.
I'm guessing it has to do with the oils?

Cedarman, sent you a email we need to talk Oklahoma CEDARS!

Theres a company up by me that makes post and rail fencing, they ship it out by the truck loads.  Not that much equipment needed, debarker, line borer and tenon  cutter, they have there own truck and trailers but that probably isn't necessary .

At one tract of cedar we looked west of Cherokee, Ok there were acres and acres of pole cedar from 2 to 6 inches, straight, thick  and tall.  There is a tremendous resource in these alone. Perfect candidates for the operation you describe. Just waiting for an entrepreneur to tackle it.  Just look how many post and rail fences there are.

They have there whole operation in one pole building about 40'X80' , could be set up (building included ) for a fraction of the cost of a tub grinder.
I wonder what Furby thinks about this one ??? ;)

 Cedarman I wish I was alot closer to  Oklahoma . I would seriously give a try at  eradicating those cedars and making them into a marketable product .

I was thinking much less overhead, with even more markets covered.
But alas, I give up and plan to keep my mouth shut from here on out. ;)

I hardly ever look at Forestry and Logging. Not that is not interesting, but not enough time to look at everything. At Jeff's suggestion, I have been looking at "posts since my last visit" and happened upon this thread.

Yes, Larry, there are some 'bigguns' down in those canyons, both in Kansas and Oklahoma. I live in Kansas but am just 14 miles from the Oklahoma state line, It is not far to lots of cedar.

Cedarman,

I was at the annual meeting of the Oklhoma Red Cedar Assn. in Taloga, Ok. and  talked to/heard Paul Todd speak. There were also professors from Oklhoma State present stateing some of the possibilities for business. Tom Lucas (a friend of mine) spoke and is in the grant business. Another speaker was David Hungerford, who works for The Dept. of Agriculture and lives in Stillwater (Payne County)(used to live in Buffalo....also a friend). Hungerford showed infrared photos of cedar infestation which is just starting to be utilized. In fact, he didn't leave the maps up on the board long as they weren't offically supposed to be available yet.

The person from Pratt, Ks. you mentioned is Don Queal. He is really as involved in eradication, shearing, sawing, marketing, and value added to cedar as anyone I know in this part of the counrty. He made his own tree shear and has a Lucas saw, a log siding moulder, and who knows what else.

I have tried to get guys interested in logging and can't seem to get much interest. The whole industry is not up to speed as most of you guys are used to. The trees are here, just no one knows what to do. When I needed logs, I just had to go get them myself.

Most of the ranchers will let you on thier property to cut cedars. They hire guys with shears or saws to cut them to clear grazing land. Only thing is, they want the ones cleared out on the flat where cattle can graze and the big trees worth cutting for saw logs are in the canyons and ravines where cows aren't as likely to go. We use cables to pull them up outa there.

One thing I know for sure, there are enough ERC trees that if everyone on this forum brought thier saws and equipment  to these parts, no one would run out of work. Marketing would be the issue.
When I first started sawing, I had big ideas. I exchanged Email with a gentleman from South Korea who wanted what I would call huge cedar dowels. He wanted them 4" in diameter and 12' to 16' long for fencing. He would take a container a week. Another guy, a furniture maker/exporter wanted drawer blanks in California. We Emailed a few times and then he called me. He wanted to know how far I was from where Yellow Freight ran. I told him about 30 miles. He said that was close enough. He wanted a semi load a week. Didn't take me long to realize that I was not ready for that volume, especially when I couldn't get anyone to do the logging.

To summarize, I agree with Cedarman. There is potential here. A lot of potential.

Haytrader, stop by Dave's office in Stillwater and you can look at the map if it is not released yet. You probably met my son Aaron at the meeting also. The map of Payne and Dewey counties are impressive with the information they contain.

To put in a mill and support equipment  needed to get the volume out necessary to deal with the demand would take 3 to 5 million dollars.  But the cedar is there. 

Next time I'm out that way let's get together.

Cedarman,

Did you guys buy the grinder (or one like it) that they demoed at Taloga?
That thing would flat chew up those dried cedar trees. If your son  was there I probably met him alright. Did he mention Tom Lucas, the grant man? He was just finishing a grant for a guy from Mooreland, Ok. to put in a building with a chipper, I beleive. He is a guy you need to know.

There was a guy there from Arkansas that did some speaking and said he was sending 45 semi loads of cedar chips a month to a plant that made wafer board. I wanna say he was or represented Green Lumber Co.. Maybe someone over that was knows who I am talking about. He said they pruned cedar on thier place to grow veneer logs. The visiting professor (she was from a foriegn country) from Oklahoma State gave a talk on essential oils from cedar and had some in a jar.

One of the reasons I was there was to see which one of the shears or saws was the best one to own. My conclusion was the one from  one of our sponsors (Timberline) is the best one out there. Oklahoma counties have government $$ available for the removal of cedars and will cost share with individual land owners. Trouble is, most of the committees that oversee the $$ have other things they think are more important to spend the bucks on.

Whenever you got out this way, let me know. I would like to meet with you and bounce some things at ya. I know people all over the area you mentioned in an earlier post. From Medicine Lodge, Kansas to Cherokee, Ok. to Fairview and Woodward. One guy offered the use of his cat to pull some of the 'big uns' up out of the canyons.  Now would be a good time to get somthing started as cattle prices are at an all time high. These guys are making a lot of $$ and when that happens they are more apt to spend it. May be able to get paid to clear some land for them to graze more cattle and get some nice cedar at the same time.

Haytrader, yes that was our grinder at Taloga.  The big guy runninig it was Aaron.  Green Forest Products was the company from Ark.  They use a lot of cedar mulch.  We have 7 or 8 mulch companies wanting mulch.  We are getting into the peak season right now.  The weather has not cooperated this winter at all.  Way too much rain.

The grinder will grind a full semi in one hour or dried cedar.  It likes dried a whole lot better than the green ones.  We are concentrating on the field cedars as those are free.

We have a tree terminator 20" shears and also a big saw for the wheeled skid steer.  Be happy to demo both for you when I come down. Probably sometime in April or May.

Cedarman,

When you say come down, just where will you be grinding? I may be able to point you to some areas where they have sheared/cut cedar and it is dry.
I imagine you have a list of guys in the clearing business, but I may know one or two more.

A year or more ago a member (FF) from Iowa contacted me for some names of land owners where he might be able to cut some cedar lumber. I supplied a few names and I do know he contacted them and was granted permission to saw on thier property. One great advantage of sawing where the trees are is you can leave the limbs and slabs. I have not heard back from that person so I do not know if he followed through. As was mentioned when this thread was started, there is a lot of potential in a large area. As I see it, there is room for a lot of guys and gals to expand in a large area. There is no "logging" industry as most FF members know it. Persons wanting a new area to work in should consider the possibilities in Oklahoma and Kansas.

One of the problems Aaron is having is saying no to the many people that want us to come to their land and grind the cedar.  We have several 1000 acres lined up.  On one tract that we are on there is somewhere near 100,000 feet of sawlogs in the woods part of the 1/2 section.  We will not be touching that.  So if someone made a deal to log the woods and saw it on site, then when we went to grinding the field cedars we could grind the slabs and edging strips also.  So much cedar, so little time.

We are grinding in Payne Co, which is Stillwater area.

Quote from: Cedarman on March 20, 2005, 08:54:52 PM
Haytrader, yes that was our grinder at Taloga.  The big guy runninig it was Aaron.  Green Forest Products was the company from Ark.  They use a lot of cedar mulch.  We have 7 or 8 mulch companies wanting mulch.  We are getting into the peak season right now.  The weather has not cooperated this winter at all.  Way too much rain.

The grinder will grind a full semi in one hour or dried cedar.  It likes dried a whole lot better than the green ones.  We are concentrating on the field cedars as those are free.

We have a tree terminator 20" shears and also a big saw for the wheeled skid steer.  Be happy to demo both for you when I come down. Probably sometime in April or May.

Hi CedarMan

What does a big Saw for a wheeled skid steer look like? 

Andrew

L-plate,  It's about a 30" saw with carbide teeth that sets on a big snout that sticks out in front of the skid steer.  You run it at ground level so as not to leave stumps.  If I can get Aaron to send a photo will see if we get it on the FF.  You just run around the field whacking cedars. 

I hope to get a series of photos for the whole operation the next time I visit Ok.

Cedarman,

Does your son now live in Stillwater?

Haytrader,  Aaron does indeed live near Stillwater, just about 5 miles SW.  He moved there in Dec.

I live in the center of Okla, and I have to say the cedar is a major problem and its gettingout of control.  I have cut about 40 or so in less than a one acre area that was getting ready to be dozed, and still have some to go.  I had some 22" across at the base. 

Up north of me the population of these trees is much more, fields are just solid thick with them.  The only problem I have cutting them is they have so many limbs to clean out of the way. 

I just discovered this thread, I guess I should pay attention more often. Regarding a few things I have seen posted: Don Quayle from Pratt, Ks was mentioned.  About 2 years ago, I got 2 semi loads of cedar logs from Don. The quality coming from down there is awesome. Very little ingrown bark, all the knots were tightand small, and the logs were as straight as can be. If there was a downside, they tend to be a little on the smaller side. If anyone ever wanted to use logs to build a house, these would have been perfect. Since then, I have had a local farmer hauling in out of a pasture he has been clearing. He has pretty well buried me in cedar. I keep meaning to cut him off, but every time I think about it, he ups the quality on me. I suspect hes getting down deeper in the draws now. Larry, if you want cedar, Dan was back to clearing last fall, you might contact him. Also, I might just arrange it if you want to pick up some from the farmer. This cedar is coming out of the flint hills north of manhattan. Ive been paying him 60 dollars a ton delivered in here. Cedar is terribly underutilized around here, and I know theres a lot of it out there that could be logged.
Steve, Kansas Hardwoods Inc

Thanks for the thought Steve.  For right now I have a little patch of cedar to log and saw.  Been matching the input, to what I sell so everything is working quite well.  I would like to see some of that high quality stuff...a lot of the logs I saw are sorta doty.

Got a letter today from the Kansas Forest Products Assoc. announcing some kind of workshop for May 6 in Osawatomie.  If memory serves me right Steve "Kansas" might be involved with this outfit...something like the President.  If it goes anything like the past two meetings there will be a big big showing of both landowners (some overrun with cedar) and sawyers.  Just do something about the rain this time ;D.   

Sold a couple thousand board feet to a local mill, but at 45 cents a foot I am not doing it for the money, I am doing it for wildlife and I. Offered my large piles of smaller trees to Cedarman, but he already has to many so I burned a large pile a couple of weeks ago.

Bought my winch from Idaho and cedar is almost 90 cents a board foot there.

If I had a market for chips I might buy a chipper.

We use a Tajfun logging winch on my Kubota to get the trees out of the canyons, 200' of cable and pulls over 3 tons.

The newspaper in Sulphur, Ok did a little article on our cutting at the Chickasaw National Recreation Area.  They have a couple of nice pics.
The site is www.sulphurtimes.com  and the subject is taking back the park.

We used a 30" tree saw on one skid steer and a 20" shear on another. A third skid steer had a grapple bucket to windrow the trees.  They were so thick that after the saw made a pass, we had to move the trees to be able to keep cutting.  I measured out one 21' x 21' square and counted 20 trees inside. That is 2000 trees per acre. We figured we cut somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 trees in 6 days on 20 acres. The temp was in the high 90's. The worst time was when a rubber track came off the skidsteer at one in the afternoon.  Took about 2 hours to get it back on.  We had not done that job before.  Next day same thing happened opposite track. Still took 2 hours because of a bad bolt. 

Had about a dozen trees too big for the machines and had to use a chainsaw.  Would have taken us a year to cut all those with a chainsaw.
One of the biggest measured 36" x 30" at ground level. We had to cut all trees within 2" of the ground.

One of the great enjoyments was working with my 2 sons. We worked well together. Put in long days, ate dinner, and stayed in motel.  The goal was to get done and back to Stillwater. 

During the job we had a good number of park personnel come by and talk with us.  Found that some thought it would be impossible for us to cut it the way we did.  Trees too big and way too thick.  We didn't know we couldn't do it.  This was our first cutting job on this type cedar thicket.  The shears was able to work among some hardwoods that they wanted to remain and carry the trees in a vertical position after shearing and then lay them down in an open area.

Will be back in the middle of Sept to grind up all the dried trees. 

Isn't there a lumber market for the bigger trees?

If someone wanted to work with us on the saw logs, we would be happy.  When we grind, it is flat out grind, grind grind.  As we bring up the big trees, they could be set aside.  If someone would guarantee to be on site to get them when we could load them, we could work something out.  There are probably 8000 to 20,000 feet of logs 8 inches and bigger.  The limbs on these things usually start near ground level.

The feds have a nice stack of big logs for someone to saw.  They need picnic table lumber.  They have over 800 tables and are constantly replacing them do to carving, damage etc.

Great opportunity for someone with a portable mill, near Sulphur Ok.

10 years ago, I wholesaled all the red cedar I wanted at $1.50 to an exotic lumber shop that retailed it for 3 to 5 dollars a board foot.  He was always out and so was I.   I quit when I realized that I didn't have any for my own use. :D

It seems that the economics of sawing that stuff up would overshadow the grinding.  why don't you open a side business and just grind the leftovers from the milling?  Even if you had to partner with someone, it would be worth it.  Slab it up and haul it back East with you where the money is and the wood ain't. ;D   

Wholesale price for cedar cants is about 56 to 58 cents per board foot.  Trucking to those markets would be about 8 cents per foot.  There is room for someone to take these logs saw them into cants and head them east.  At the same time develop some specialty markets local.  We have yet to find someone in Ok to want to do the sawing on site.  We could easily take the slabs and make mulch. 
We can grind a load of mulch in 1 1/2 hours.  It would take a week to make a load of cants.
Some fields we go into have very few logs, some have a good number.
Opportunity awaits.

Hello Cedarman,

Sounds like you are having truckloads of fun.
I sent you and email to your "netpointe" addy on 8/12 (well before this thread started up again) and never received a reply so I suppose you did not get it.
I would like to resend it to you if you give me a working addy.
Thanks, Kevin.

   I'm confused. Boy that atin't unusual,but haven't these ranchers ever heard of tractors and bushogs? Now I know that is oversimplification,but if bushes,cedar was invading my pasture,I'de at least have a go at'em with one.
   Cedarman,
   Has anyone tried a crawler excavator typ machine with a sawhead on it,seems it would be more stable than a skidsteer

Quote
  I'm confused. Boy that atin't unusual,but haven't these ranchers ever heard of tractors and bushogs?



Can't get anything but my tractor and logging winch in the canyon and its way to late to brush hog a cedar 2'-3' across!

wow, I'd love to have a few trailerloads of cedar sawlogs!  I'd settle for 14" or bigger, let alone 3'

all we need is one of us to win the lottery, and still be stupid enough to continue this madness ;)

Skidsteers are fast and with rubberized track are light on the land. 

If the cedars started growing all at once, you would see the need to bushhog.  But a few cedars here and a few there, no big deal.  When those few get to 6 feet, there are so few that its still no big deal.  A bunch more small ones, well they ain't hurting anything. And besides, gives the critters something to hide in.  A few more years, time flies, cedars get bigger and then in just a few years the ground is covered.

A lot of the cedars we have cut are only 10 to 25 years old.

But, the biggest reason, IMHO is that bushhogging wont work very well because you have to get even the lowest green limbs or the tree keeps living and spreading out.

Best option is a grass fire every 4 to 6 years.  And that takes expertise and good management to get the right fuel load at the right time of the year.

I would rather cut cedar inthe 7 to 10 inch range to get the highest quality wood.  Big cedars have ingrown bark, doughty wood, big knots and seams of weakness.  Big logs can have gorgeous wood, but you have to saw 5 logs to get one great one.

Quote from: L-plate on March 21, 2005, 08:55:47 AM

What does a big Saw for a wheeled skid steer look like? 

Check out this site http://www.cedarsaw.com/default.htm

That puppy with flat out cut trees.  That zzzzt sound is a 4 to 6 incher being zipped off at ground level.

Have chainsaws and portable mill.
Will travel.
Tell me when and where, and I'll work out the details.
Dave

Hey Cedarman,
just curious if the situation has changed in regards to the Cedar problem.

after reading this thread and looking at all (or rather lack of ) job prospects in Michigan thinking this might be an opportunity in the making.

If you have any information of the availability of low interest loans or grants to get in and work in this area that would be great.
It is so much better to find a use for trees than just to burn them up in my opinion.

thanks for such an interesting thread and topic

Jake
LS

A little over a year ago, I sat in a meeting at OSU at which secretary Peach was present. He asked what Oklahoma could do to help businesses get established using cedar.  I told him that helping banks make loads would be a great help.  It is getting some talk but we haven't been able to take advantage.  All of the grants we looked at are for non profit businesses.  All the banks looked at us cockeyed when we asked for money.  Making mulch or biofuel out of cedar is a brand new operation and banks hate the word new when it comes to establishing a new business venture.  Equipment companies will load money rather cheaply on new equipment and cash flow can start rather quickly. 

There is a bunch of small oak trees in the eastern half of Oklahoma that would be great for making biofuel.

Everything is capital intensive and requires fairly large scale equipment to move trees and product efficiently.

I have talked with treecycler and there is an opportunity there.

There is a smallwood conference at Wagoner Ok on May 3, 4 and 5 that has some really meaty sessions.

Cedarman,
thanks for information about the conference.  Sadly i will be in the midst of my finals and final papers.
I will try to find a way to get hard copies of what is covered

just curious if there has been any increase in efforts of clearing the cedar and if they are making a dent in the market.

Jake
LS

 Lawyer-Sawyer,  Cedar is still growing and covering over 700 acres per day in Ok.  There is a market in Denver for 1000 semi loads of mulch per year.

I have followed this thread from the beginning and beleive there is a gold mine there somewhere, with room for more than one individual. Twenty-five years ago I would already be there. I don't do 16 hours, 7 days a week near as well as I used to :-[

Anyone wanna put up some cash ??? ;D ::)

After talking with Cedarman, one of the nicest gents I have spoken with in a VERY long time, all I can say is that I am in wholesale.
Since he and I spoke, I have worked on developing markets for the products, and the people that I have in my distribution network are highly receptive to it, as they know how adamant I am about what I will and won't mill.
As for putting up cash, I started my reserve funding for this operation with my tax return, which should be sufficient for me to operate for 2 or 3 weeks, including travel expenses, even with diesel at $3 a gallon.

The only thing left to know is....
:)

This is an interesting thread. Our cedar grows VERY big in swampy areas at higher elevation and much of it  is cut for shakes and paneling. The heart is generally very punky though.
A friend of my dad's built a boiler setup to extract the oil from the brush the farmers brought in. The remaining hog fuel was used to fire the boiler or sold as mulch. Karl was big on ideas but short on marketing expertise so the venture folded. Like the rest of you, his biggest problem was getting volume  to market economically. Would a byproduct operation like that help make yours economically viable?

sawguy21, we had a call from a guy in Minnesota looking for cedar mulch.  Said he was buying it out of western Canada and the price was sky high.  He was looking at alternatives.  We use the whole tree after cutting and letting it turn brown.  If you had enough volume and could get equipment and trucks, why couldn't you use the limbs, tops, junk wood to make mulch? I know they are sending it by railcar to the US.

Thankyou Treecyclers for the compliment.

Furby, there are people out there that will loan money.  Banks won't unless you don't need the money or can put 50% down.  We borrowed almost all the money for our Oklahoma operation. I even borrowed some from friends.  They are still friends and must be paid no matter what else happens.  I value my friends.   If a person truly believes in themselves and has that entreprenuerial spirit and does their research, it can be done. 

There is opportunity for more.

Yes, but you all ready have several sucessful businesses running between you and your son.
You have a history to draw from.

I have nothing, no capital, no business history to use as an example, heck I haven't had any available credit for ages.
I also can't/couldn't support myself while starting something, so I don't/didn't have time to jump through all the hoops.
That's why things stalled out a year ago, no way to get started.

It's easy to say you borrowed everything, and I belive you, but your history had a lot to do with you getting those $ did it not?

Furby, in a nutshell, we drew on our past experience.  But I think the key to getting the whole thing going was doing lots of research and then making a detailed business plan that showed everything in detail. We had to prove we had a viable business.  We spent a good deal of time researching and maybe a couple thousand dollars traveling.

If you have an idea that you think will work, find a few other people to go in with you.  It will not be an easy task.  If it was everyone else would already have done it.

Furby, you are not without assets to offer.  You have a CDL and some trucking experience, right?  As I understand it, one of the hurdles involved in the Oklahoma cedar business is transportation costs.  Could it be that you could get your start in that end of the business?  Just food for thought. ;)

Ok, gang, here's some food for thought.
I have been checking with my distribution chain for ARC (Aromatic Red Cedar) pricing, learning what they're buying it for, and what it's going for retail.

Now, here, north of Prescott, AZ, I can dry Ponderosa Pine from "don't know it's dead yet" green to 8% or less in 3 months, air drying it in my carport, where the warm western winds blow through every day, even in the winter.

How can we collaborate, employing our strengths and offsetting our challenges, to harvest, dry, and bring these products to market?
Cedarman, my impression is that you're the man with the plan on getting these logs harvested in a cost effective manner.
I can contribute the milling end of things, which I am working out the logistics of as I write this post.
Furby, if you have a CDL, and can help move the product from the mill to market, I think we may have a viable chain in the works.

Going through the transport brokers for trucking, flatbeds in AZ are running $2.00 a mile or close to that. While I respect that diesel is right at $3.00 a gallon, I think that $2 per mile is a little high, and I know that the brokers are tagging on their 10-20% too.
Furby, what do you think it would cost per mile to haul from the mill, in OK, to Phoenix?

Cedarman, where exactly will we be working?

I spoke briefly with Paul Todd to generate as many leads as I can for supply of saw logs, and he has yet to get back to me with that information. I'll probably call him later today to see how he's progressed with that information.

Knowing these things, is it possible for us to put this all together, and all of us do it profitably enough to make it worth our while to do so?

smiley_beertoast

Having a CDL is one thing, having the truck, trailer, licenses, permits, insurance, DOT inspections and other "stuff", and so on is a whole different ball game!!!
It adds up quick! :o :o

As you said DanG, one of the hurdles is transportation COST, I don't have an answer for that one.

I would probly say the cheapest way to ship that stuff right now would be to post the load on one of the trucking boards.
Would have to have a TT load ready to go with equipment to load rather fast and post for a flatbed and have them bid.
You should be able to stay away from some of the brokers that way.

We do have members with rigs. ;)
One not too far from where ya gonna be milling that might be willing to work with ya.

Furby-
What's the chance that you have a few of those load boards bookmarked that you might be able to email me or somehow get me the links?
I'll be more than happy to do the legwork on this one, to figure out what's feasible, and what's not.
Thanks in advance!!
Dave

Dave.
Have a cousin that owns a couple of trucks  (just runs southeast coast) .One of the sites he uses is http://getloaded.com/ .
Onion

Is this topic still alive?  I am in Oklahoma and have been interested in this subject some.

I wonder if there is a way to integrate and market cedar for higher-end uses, rather than lowly mulch.  Love to get high margins!

I was at the Pawnee OK steam tractor show a couple of years ago and they were cutting some very large red cedar logs.  They were very impressive, and supposedly cut just a few miles from there.  They were just running them through a steam shingle cutter, seemed a bit sad to me.

Western Oklahoma banks will not be very interested in sawmill/forestry projects, however there is much logging in the eastern parts of the state, there is a good mix of pines and hardwoods, and some of those eastern OK banks will be more agreeable.

Bank financing is kind of grim, would be great to have enough equity to dispense with banks.

Anyway, I am new to this forum and think it is great.

The challenge as I see it in the cedar area of Ok is the lack of a sawmill and logging culture.  There is not a pool of people that understand logging and sawmilling.  Landowners are not familiar with timber values.

We have the chicken and egg thing.  No markets, no big sawmills. No big sawmills, no markets.

There is talk of a decent sized mill going in somewhere in central Ok.  There is money to back it.  This would be great.  I think the first thing that needs to be done is establish markets.  This can be done, but will take some time and effort. How do you market a million feet of cedar a year? 

As I see it the small mills get a few orders, then try to get some logs.  A logger needs a dependable buyer if they are going to invest in logging equipment. They can't just sit by the phone and wait for a few small mills to call once in a while.  The sawmill cant buy unlimited amount of cedar because they do not have a steady market.

With 10,000,000 acres of cedar and in this cedar is 1 to 2 billion feet of nice standing cedar sawlogs, there is ample opportunity.  Talk about a huge untapped resource. My competitors in so In are paying up to 60 cents per foot for cedar delivered to the mill.  There is no shortage of cedar in my area, just people that don't understand the cedar business. 

Since we started grinding, we have 3 competitors.  They have not hurt us at all.  We have sales lined up for our biggest year ever. 

Welcome to the forum teakboat!

If you built your own boat we would love to see some pictures. You can post them over on the General forum.  8)

Howdy Cedarman.  Great thread. My partner in crime and I have been working on this very thing in the Kansas flinthills. We are a much smaller operation with smaller ideas. You have really got me to thinking. Has any one mentioned the E.Q.I.P. money avalible to land owners in Kansas to clear cedars? We have been working with ranchers on this, we get trees leave slabs, branches and they get the E.Q.I.P. money and they are happy. Have some real forest comming up and was wondering about asking for some of the money as sheares wont touch most of the trees and no other way to clear other than chainsaw. Question, would you be interested in grinding in central Kansas(Manhattan area) and if so what voulume would it take to justify you moving your machinery to do it? The biggest killer for us is the time it takes to limb out a cedar log. Very low volume per day. Maybe you know of a better way or are you just in to the grinding not the logging? I fully agree with you in that there are many oppurtunities in this for more than one operation. Maybe if smaller mills and operators could band together to meet volume requirements would help to get this off the ground. What brand of grinder are you running? With the new housing market around here there is a very good market for mulch locally which would cut down on the trucking cost. As I see it this problem is here to stay. Too many do gooders want to ban the rancher from burning pastures. Spraying costs way too much, espically when a pasture may be from 600 to 10000 acres. Also as urban sprawl creeps out that limits what you can burn. Would like to talk with you some time, you are a man with ideas. I like that. Steve

Cedarman, what are they doing with the logs that are getting up to 60 cents per foot, if I could ask?  I suppose only the nicest logs get anywhere near that?  What diameter?

Kevjay, I wish I had a teakboat, I've got an aluminum bass boat!  www.teakboat.com is our business, related to outdoor furniture.

We use a Rotochopper horizontal grinder.
Don Queal out of Pratt Ks also has a Rotochopper grinder.  He might want to travel, but I think he is on a 25,000 acre ranch and has several cedars to grind.

We do cut the logs out of trees that will make an 9" log at least 8' long and are stockpiling these.  One tract we left about 80,000 standing feet of sawlogs that were in the hardwoods and didn't interfer with the pasture land.  We use a tree shear on trees from 8" to 24", a chain saw on the bigger ones and a tree saw on the smaller trees if they are enough to justify.  We can cut from 400 to 1000 trees per hour with the saw if they are thick and mostly poles.  The shears is about a minute or two per tree average as you have to move the tree after cutting it to get it out of the way.
When using the tree saw if they are too thick, we use another loader to windrow them.

The ranchers in Ok can get cost share on cedar eradification.

GW with his real nice homemade mill has the scoop on sawing timber near Ok City.

If a machine such as the harvester type, where it grabs the tree, cuts it off, turns it to strip limbs and bucks, were used on Red Cedar, would it effectively strip the cedar limbs. They seem more "rubbery" than Pine. They don't break cleanly like Pine ???

  I was thinking, maybe some form of stuffer-stripper of Cedar trunks, too small for sawing, might be stripped and sent through a chipper. Bigger pieces sent through a Shaver, and the largest, sawn ??

  Too much machinery involved for this process to be economical???

Thanks Cedarman for the information.

Cedar limbs are very brittle and shear off nicely with a harvester.  We use one at times in In.  The problem with the field cedar is that they have limbs to the ground. I looked at a Timber King harvester (I think that is the name) in the UP several years ago.  I asked the operator who was delimbing some nasty jack pine to start near the top where it was very limby with big limbs to see how it would contend with them.  It would grab the stem crushing the limbs and stroke to the end.  Then let go rotate 180 degrees grab the tree where it had been delimbed and proceed to the trunk.  It did a nice job, so this delimber would work on any cedar that I have ever seen.  This is the most powerful delimber I have ever seen.  6" pine limb gone with ease.

There is a huge demand for cedar shavings.  American Wood Fibres cannot keep up with demand.  So, someone could open up a shaving mill in Ok and do well making shavings.  Get contracts for the shavings first, the logs can be obtained inexpensively enough.  It would cost several hundred thousand to set up the process properly.  The big thing is that the shavings need to be dried to the right MC to store in the bag.  Dry logs don't shave as well as green logs do, but I think the right shaver could overcome this problem.  Salsco makes a portable shaver.  So if you had smaller markets established first, this could be a good deal. There are portable baggers, but they run to $50,000 and up.  You can also take all the decent slabs and shave them too.
It would take a bit of research and running around lining all the ducks up, but it can be done.  A small bandmill on the side to saw the really nice logs and sell as markets opened up would be a good companion to a shaver.  I think the shaver could run full time.  Ok, being several hundred miles west of any other cedar shaving mill would have a leg up on transportation.

It will take someone with access to capital, with time to do the legwork, and willingness to take a big risk to do this.  It won't be easy.  If it was, soneone else would already be doing it.

Ed and I looked into a Shaving Mill for Pine. Horse Bedding is a huge market. I had thought about a grain dryer, like for corn. Shouldn't be THAT expensive to operate, if it's used for $2.00 bushel corn ??  Expell chips from that into a Solar "tempering" bin, then bag it.

  I could interested in a "Joint" venture on this.

can someone explain to us with a little more detail how this E.Q.I.P.money works .where it comes from , who is intitled to it , is it based acres or trees removed ?

Has anything been happening with this subject since this thread died?

Seems like a pruning machine to improve the remaining, scattered cedars would be a nice addition after doing a major cleanout. Could generate future high quality timber.....

There is the potential for stuff happening. Biofuel and cedar oil, to name one. The usual mulch markets. And back in the day, we cut a lot of cedar. There is a bunch of it here in Kansas. There also was, but not sure now, a government program helping to pay for removal to sweeten the pot. We got busy with stuff, and in all reality, you need mill/s set up to cut only cedar. You really need a total disposal method. Take the bushy ones, and chip. Take the ones that grow up under them for logs. You will have to have the right harvester. In places, Kansas has just as good and heavy amounts of cedar as Oklahoma. The problem is to do it effectively, it would cost a small fortune for the equipment. Cedar can be difficult to log. I use to do it myself; in some  stands, it was impossible to drop a tree with a chain saw. A grinder to grind what needs to be ground is 6 figures. Trucks, walking floor trailers, sawmill, maybe two if you get a scragg mill, all the support and harvesting equipment. I don't know if you could cobble together an operation on less than 500,000 dollars. Oh, you could get a little equipment, a mill, use a chainsaw to harvest, and get started down the road. The problem is, there is no infrastructure. You can't hardly buy a harvester and do it efficiently without spending some bucks. There are almost no mills that take cedar logs here. So that requires a mill to process them, and then there is the marketing. Its doable, but to really do it right, will have a lot of up front costs.

Boy would I like to get some of that up here! Anybody have any to get rid of? Maybe in10sity is still making a trip up here.

I have a good cedar stand in central Missouri that we have been pruning and thinning now for close to 20 years. Some of it is getting to be timber size. Too bad everybody around there thinks it is junk. Perceptions are hard to change. :(

One of the problems with pruning cedar is that you can develop rot pockets if the limb is not pruned properly.  I have sawn some old trees pruned with an axe that were fine.  Others made for low grade lumber.  If the limb is dead, then pruning is fine.
There is no logging culture or sawmill culture in Oklahoma where the cedar is.  There are 2 types of cedar.  The range land cedar that grows bushy and is not good for anything except mulch or fuel.  The cedar that grows thick so that it self prunes or cedar that has been growing in the gulleys and canyons amongst hardwood can be very fine cedar.  I figure there is over a billion feet of good cedar sawlogs in Ok.  This does not include rangeland cedar.

Where does it stop after having a sawmill?  Need to grind the slabs and edging strips into mulch.  Would you want to plane the lumber?  How about a drying room to sell to commercial woodworking businesses?  How about a straigtline rip? How about a moulder to make  paneling?  How about a sander to put a fine finish onthe paneling?    How about a 2 to 4 head resaw to turn cants into lumber?
Lumber storage buildings to air dry and keep the wood out of the sun?
If you go through 30,000 feet a week, you will need  300,000 feet of logs in inventory to make sure you do not run out when it gets hot and no one would log.
Who is going to do all the logging?  To mechanize would take several hundred thousand in a harvester, forwarder and trucks.

You could start out small with a hydraulic mill and a loader.  Slabs can be put over the hill.  Tractor with winch, skid steer with forks, gooseneck with standards would be good enough to start logging.  Still talking somewhere around hundred thousand to have decent equipment.
Big plus is that cedar trees are cheap in Ok, Ks, Neb.
I send a fair amount of cedar into Tx from Indiana that passes through Ok.
Just talked to a guy in Dallas that wants multiple trailer loads of fencing, fence rails and posts.  Get a contract with a few like that and might be worth jumping in.
If the housing market heats up, privacy fencing will pick up and ERC competes well with other fencing material.

I expect to be cutting down some of my pruned trees this fall. It will be interesting to see what is inside and whether there is rot there..

Cedarman, did you attend the Springfield, MO redcedar conference, I think maybe 5 yrs ago?

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on February 09, 2013, 10:39:33 AM
I expect to be cutting down some of my pruned trees this fall. It will be interesting to see what is inside and whether there is rot there..

Cedarman, did you attend the Springfield, MO redcedar conference, I think maybe 5 yrs ago?

I am very interested in what you find out about the wood next to the pruned limbs.

I was one of the speakers  at Springfield.  That was a great conference.
The field trips to the various mills and the panel making operation were eyeopening.

Quote from: Cedarman on February 09, 2013, 12:37:15 PM

Quote from: mesquite buckeye on February 09, 2013, 10:39:33 AM
I expect to be cutting down some of my pruned trees this fall. It will be interesting to see what is inside and whether there is rot there..

Cedarman, did you attend the Springfield, MO redcedar conference, I think maybe 5 yrs ago?

I am very interested in what you find out about the wood next to the pruned limbs.

I was one of the speakers  at Springfield.  That was a great conference.
The field trips to the various mills and the panel making operation were eyeopening.

I will try to post photos and growth distribution information when it gets done. You are welcome to be there this fall if you like.

Also, is anybody talking about another conference??? Lots has changed with the economy since then...