Don't know if I'm posting this in the right section or not, but this seemed a good place to go fishing for ideas. Our local pulp mill is closing down, and after beating my head on a tree for a good long while I have decided to look at this as an opportunity, instead of a disaster. Most of the jobs around here that I get are probably about 75% pulpwood, which wasn't a big problem since we had a local mill to take it. Traditionally the pulp has covered my expenses for a job, and saw logs have been my profit.
I guess what I'm looking for is any ideas what I can do with the pulp now to keep the books looking good. The better hardwood pulp I can probably cut up and sell for firewood, although I'm not crazy on the idea of having a huge amount of firewood in the yard, and the time frame of getting my money back out is just a little long. And that still leaves the remaining pulp to be dealt with.
I could just start looking for better timber, but there is always a certain amount of pulp wood. My niche here has mostly been doing stand improvement thinnings, and I have a very good reputation that I have worked very hard for, so I really don't want to go away from that.
Any ideas?
Good for you and that positive attitude.
From the map on your profile, looks like you're close to the ocean. Any markets there for the size trees you're cutting? Boat building needs, docks, the fishing industry, anything like that?
Can you and fellow loggers get enough pulp to send by rail, if rail is in your area? I read that they had that problem in New York a while back and sending out by rail was their answer. It took them some effort though to get it going.
I've been wondering why more logs aren't shipped by rail. I haven't seen logs on a train around here in many years, until just recently. A logging outfit up in the edge of Ga. has built a new yard with a rail siding. I saw 18 cars of logs going through Quincy(Fl) just a couple of weeks ago, headed east. :) Maybe the practice is making a comeback. ???
Anybody know what rail shipping costs, vs trucking? It's gotta be lots cheaper.
I do not know didifference but hsave been seeing some coming from the North of Oregon, near the Columbia River, headed to the Southernside of the state due to trucking costs and the higher price that was being paid for Douglasd fir saw logs. I know the fella shipping them and he is tighter than the papeer n the wall. If he could save or make a nickle he is the one.
Railroad cars loaded with pulp are a common sight around here. Don't recall seeing any sawlogs on rail cars though.
Devo,
Why is your local pulp mill closing? What's your next closest pulp mill?
Basic reason for the mill closing is economics. This mill has never been profitable for various reasons. The company says they are optimistic that they will reopen when the economics of the situation improve, but in the meantime they have sold off a lot of their plantations ( at least the ones on the US side of the border ), and reduced their forestry department from 19 staff to just one, and that one is also looking for other work.
The next closest mill isn't that much further away, but may as well be on ther other side of the country. For starters they only want full length wood, which is at best difficult for me doing mostly thinning work. I just can't see myself wanting to spend the extra time to trying not to damage high value saw log trees to recover a very low value length of pulp. The mill is also in Quebec which is a problem for the truckers that I use to haul for me, as they need a permit and an IFTA sticker to cross over. They also have to go through Ottawa/Hull which can be a real pain with a truck. Bottem line is none of the truckers want to do this with out a lot more money which I can't afford to pay and still stay profitable. The last problem with the next closest mill is that all the big chipper operations that used to sell to the mill that is closing are now trying to go there, driving down the price, and filling thier needs, so it is not easy to get then to even accept a load from a small guy like me. :-/
This is just my understanding from a little reading here and there, but a major problem with moving things by rail is that the rails are already overloaded. This may be a bit different from area to area, but the increased demant to move "things" of any type has put a lot of pressure on rail lines. It's really hard to expand the rail lines in this day and age, compared to simply adding a couple of more trucks to the road.
It doesn't hurt to check into though, because there are probly some areas that have a small "slack point" where something like this would fit.
I actually looked into shipping by rail a few years ago when I was lucky enough to have a couple loads of poplar peelers to sell. The biggest problem was the cost. I can't remember any numbers now, other than the logs were worth more trucked to the sawmill than they were worth shipped by rail to a peeler mill. The problem was I just wasn't big enough to be worth the rail companys time. Just getting them to talk to me was a real chore. I never got into the details with them but they did give me the impresion that it was going to be a real pain to get the logs onto the train, siding to use, actually loading them, making sure the car was loaded to thier specifications. I will call the rail co. again in the next day or so and see if thier attitude towards a small business has changed, but I won't get my hopes up!
Just thought I would clarify a few things. I know there is not going to be an easy magical solution to my problem. Any solution that is going to work is going to take some thinking outside the box, money, and more than likely a tough education for me. None of these things scare me much.
I'm looking at this as an opportunity to make better use of a forest resource, and maybe a way of doing more with the bush I work in, therefor needing to cut less of it. I have a few ideas already but didn't want to post them, until I saw what other people came up with. ;)
Firewood seems to be in demand in our area . Face cords sell for $60 U pick it up .$100 in the urban areas delivered. Thinnings seem to be ideal for firewood. Those retailers next to the big smoke(Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa) would be my target markets. Just my 2 cents CDN.
ps. When life gives you lemons, make lemonade ;D
Scragg mill may be something to consider. You can run a lot of material through one of those, but you must have a market for the sawn stock.
If you're looking at the softwood side, then you would be looking at 2x4s, etc. From the hardwood side, you would probably be looking at pallet stock, fence boards, maybe even flooring stock. You will also produce a bunch of chips.
A whole tree chipper may also be an option, if you have a strong chip market.
You could consider a tub grinder or something similar, if you can find a strong mulch or bedding market.
There are also shavers, for making animal bedding. Its great if you have a lot of poultry houses in your area or are heavy to horse farms.
What sort of logging equipment do you run?
Sounds crazy, but you could use the pulpy pulp as fuel wood to run a kiln set up, drying the firewood. Bone dry firewood sells no matter what, and sells for the highest price. With the pulp market gone, you can buy the fuelwood for next to nothing I'd assume. A small chipper to convert it to boilerfuel, and a wheel bucket loader with 1 cord baskets to fill the kilns.(forks on the bucket) One side of the basket is hinged at the top, and held closed with simple knock in place hasps. Sounds like a lot of $$ and time and effort...but firewood was just rated in the top 50 small enterprises to start in a recent forbes mag (Think it was forbes) It is a growth industry. I would think ideally, a CTL set up would let you recover the most sawtimber and allow sorting for different uses.
Can someone please explain a scragg mill to me. Unfortunatly I'm very ignorant aboout saw milling, and really don't no how they differ from a regular mill.
A scragg mill is used for creating 2 to 4 sided cants. It is usually 2 circle blades side by side and a log is "end dogged" between them. the log is passed through the blades, cutting a slab from each side. Then it is turned 90 degrees and passed through again cutting off the remaining slabs and creating a square cant. the blades are moveable, like an edging saw, to compensat for the sizes of the logs.
Scragg saws are generally found in pallet mills and are used for sort logs. There are some Scraggs that handle longer lumber stock.
There are band scraggs too.
Here's a link to Baker's Scraggs
http://www.baker-online.com/DOCUMENTS/scragg%20mill_selection_menu.htm
Thanks Tom. I think I've got it now. Basically a scragg mill is used in a situation like the one I describe, making use of low value wood by doing a large volume.
How does the set up cost of a scragg mill compare to that of a more conventional mill? I know thats a pretty general question, but I'm just trying to get a general idea.
Set up costs are probably pretty close to a conventional mill, if you're going from new. The only additional piece of equipment would be a resaw to reclaim lumber from the slabs.
The production on a twin circle is upwards of 30 Mbf/shift. That's a lot of material, both in and out. The increased production comes from having 2 saws going at one time.
Conventional mills have one saw sawing, and the turning process will eat up your production. Lower production raises sawing costs and profits.
If you're going to saw small logs, conventional mills are not the way to go.
Thanks for the info. I'm going to have to do some research on marketing the product that would be produced by a scragg mill. Being as my problem canters around low value pulp, I never even considered sawing it up for something. Funny how the brain sorta limits your thinking with out you even knowing it. A scragg mill would also be usefull to me when I'm doing cedar. I generally spend about 4-5 months of the year cutting pure cedar stand. Anytime my landing for a cedar bush is visable from the road, I probably average 7 or 8 visitors a week wanting to know if I would sell them dimentional lumber (2x4 2x6 4x4 ect). I looked into having someone in to cut it with a regular mill, but the numbers just wheren't there.
Oldtimer,
My current weapons of choice are a White 1370 4X4 tractor with a Farmi #60T winch, and a TJ350 cable skidder. The tractor set up is fairly new to me, but I'm finding myself really liking it.
I hope the firewood kiln idea isn't too crazy since I've already built a small one to test the idea. I started building it back in Nov, but havent been able test it yet as I'm way behind on another project, the outdoor stove. I hope to have that one wrapped up in the next month and start testing. I too had the idea of chipping the fuel to feed it, since that would allow me to use every part of every tree I cut. That part of the plan is on the back burner right now as I couldn't figure a way of safely feeding the chips into the stove, and I really wanted the stove to be up and running as soon as possible (going to heat the house too).
Hi Devo,
Don't know if you've heard of them but check out www.loyalistforest.com They are not too far away from you and sound like they support good logging practices.
Ian
Thanks Indy, I hadn't known about them. I checked out thier website, and found the posted prices to be a little lower than what I'm getting from my current buyer. I should have mentioned earlier that my problem is only with the pulp, I have an excelent relationship with a sawmill for my sawlogs.
This might have been covered a bit in one of the messages i skiped but you guys are all having fun and I wnathe to add a thought.
When I have the opportunity I enjoy visiting mills. I talked to a couple over the years that have addressed their added value / Profitability issues by doing more grading and finding markets for the higher grade product that gets produced. I also think you are taking a great aproach - looking for the opportunity.
Could take a little time to cultivate some higher grade markets. Shouldn't hurt to check.
Good luck with your project.
DanK
Thank you to everyone that has replied ( and encouraged ) so far. Between my own ideas, some of which a pretty dumb, and those suggested by members here, this is part of what I have so far:
- Scragg Mill
- Ship by rail to another mill
- Firewood
- Mulch/Shavings/Animal bedding
Looking at this from the point of veiw that all that pulp is a cheap source of BTUs, here are some more:
- Firewood Kiln
- Set up Kiln to do contract drying
- Have my good logs sawn up for me and dry them myself, then sell the lumber
- Vacuum kiln for drying large timbers
- Some sorta biofuel/electric generation setup
- Greenhouse for winter veggies to sell
- Greenhouse to grow tree seedling to sell (i kinda like the irony of that one)
In my mind at least each has its good and bad points. I have a cedar bush to work in till spring breakup, and after that I have to at least have a plan in place, if not in action. I'm curiuos to see what you folks think. Commence laughing!
The last two ideas are great. You can use a lot of low grade wood to heat the greenhouses.
Im really thinking of the kiln dried firewood to value add to my thinning operation.