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I have a 40' x 60' pole barn. Clay subsoil, good drainage, with 4" of gravel inside. New barn, only 1 year old. I just bought a Woodland Mills HM126 with 14hp motor. After having several concrete guys come out and give me quotes for ~$9000-$10,000 for just the 40' x 40' area of the floor. I said screw it! I am buying a mill and will try to give it my best shot milling, planing, and making one awesome wood floor. 

So my thoughts are to get the biggest logs I can from craigslist Free section. I take the logs and mill them 2"-4" thick and as long and as wide as possible. Let'em dry if they are green. I have a 13" planer, so I figured anything under 13" wide I can sen through the planer. I'll worry about straightening the boards after I mill them and let'em dry.

Now...I know I need to compact the subsoil and base gravel. I wonder if I should bring in sand on top of the gravel like wood pavers, or if I can get by with the wood directly on the gravel. Maybe I should install a moisture barrier over the sand. 

I know this is totally unconventional. And I like it that way. If I can put free wood down, and keep it from rotting, why the heck not have a nice wood floor over a concrete floor? Im 32 and can do the labor. I've only had one back surgery and three hernias, so I should be good to go for awhile.... ::)

Two things come to mind. First, unless you bring in a laser grading system you are not going to get that material dead level, so your floor won't be level or even flat .

The second thought is that depending on the wood species you use, with only a couple exceptions, you will see rot happening within one to a few years. 

$9K-$10K is actually not a bad price for a concrete pad that size. 

It is unconventional, for sure.  You're not going to be happy with just laying boards down on gravel no matter what.  You could do it by putting down something for stringers sleepers and then putting the floor down like a barn floor.  It would be like having the joists sitting right on the gravel.  If you're going to do that, you might as well put in some piers and build a conventional floor system.  Doing either of those is going to raise the level of the floor, if you can live with that.  Better treat for termites and put down a moisture barrier.

A wood floor is nice but probably better do something conventional.  Or at least semi-conventional.  

It will be interesting to see who chimes in on this topic.  By tomorrow you should have lots of opinions and ideas.

Good luck.  Keep us informed as you go.

You can do it like a permanent wood foundation, sand, plastic, sleepers, floor, all wood foundation grade treated or it rots probably sooner than later. or you can learn how to place concrete, that's about $3500 worth of concrete. divide it up into minimum transit loads and have a go at it. It will be at least as flat as the rotting wood and will last a good bit longer.

I thought it was crazy until last winter.  Then...... I did this on a stone base with crossing 2"X6" pressure treated grid and pressure treated plywood on top of the grid, all screwed together.  It was great to work on, fixturing was easy, it warmed easily in the winter, legs did not tire, forklift never cracked plywood, easy to clean.  I'm sold and I pour flat work when needed.  Now I am going to do it in my saw mill shed up to concrete pad that mill sits on.  The only difference is I will place 1.5" insulation board between purlins in both direction for a little more warmth over time during the day.  It's cold in upstate NY.  But I do intend to use advantech sub-flooring.  Cool part is if I change my mind I'll unscrew it and change it around.  No material lost.

Quote from: ScottCC on October 15, 2018, 10:03:07 PM
I thought it was crazy until last winter.  Then...... I did this on a stone base with crossing 2"X6" pressure treated grid and pressure treated plywood on top of the grid, all screwed together.  It was great to work on, fixturing was easy, it warmed easily in the winter, legs did not tire, forklift never cracked plywood, easy to clean.  I'm sold and I pour flat work when needed.  Now I am going to do it in my saw mill shed up to concrete pad that mill sits on.  The only difference is I will place 1.5" insulation board between purlins in both direction for a little more warmth over time during the day.  It's cold in upstate NY.  But I do intend to use advantech sub-flooring.  Cool part is if I change my mind I'll unscrew it and change it around.  No material lost.

Thanks everyone for the input.
ScottCC, thanks for sharing your experience. I've got 4" to work with from gravel to top of floor height. After compaction I may have 5". That doesn't leave any room for any kind of floor joists unless I use treated 2x's laying on their side.
There is a 1" drop from the back door to the front door. If I run a tight string across the garage I can get it close to looking flat. Yeah a laser would be handy. 
How long will an Eastern Red Cedar post last in a fence row? Or how about black locust? I thought those two species were very rot resistant. If I can get those species to use in the floor than I would be looking at much longer service life. 
Part of this idea is that its much easier and cheaper to lift up a board and replace it, than it is to tear out concrete and replace a whole slab section. I'm not sitting tractors or anything super heavy in the garage. It'll be mostly a man-cave/woodshop/garage for the classic cars. I have a 4 post lift I'll center over some concrete piers so its not resting on the wood floor. 
I am going to play with this...so I asked for your opinions guys and I am not afraid to listen. Sure, if I put pine and other less rot resistant woods down, I get the point. It'll rot. If I can keep the moisture out by installing a moisture barrier under the wood, and around the perimeter of the building....then aren't we talking about this being a possibility? Yeah its impractical, and in the long run will be more work...and possibly the same or more cost. But I will have a 40' x 60' solid wood floor in my man cave....way nicer than concrete...I mean come on...how cool would this be?
One other thought on the moisture issue. If I take each wood slab and treat the edges and bottom face with a wax, or maybe something spray on like a plastidip coating or roll on bed liner, wouldn't that keep the moisture out of the board? Certainly it would extend the life of the board.

Have any of you ever used Woodlife Copper Coat? I just did a quick google search for wood sealers/anti rot products. 

Looks like this stuff I could soak the bottom side of the wood slabs in, then lock the slabs into a sand base like a typical wooden paver.

The original inspiration for this floor was this wood paver street being layed down in this youtube video:

Wood Paver Alley, Chicago - YouTube (https://youtu.be/9G3I8jFIrCw)

Rot and mold is all you will get from wood on compacted gravel around here in Ms. I don't care if its treated or not ,plastic barrier or not.  If you want to do it on the cheap, I have in the past gone in and blocked off a square area, called in the concrete truck and free poured it and gravity leveled by hand and rake.  Its not a machined level floor but for storing equipment, tractor, woodworking ,lumber storage and just plain Mississippi foot stomping it works and its quick.  Gravity does a good job on its own, also balance ,you can spin a log with your finger simply by rolling it up on a small section of 2x4, in other words save that back you will need it down the road.

So here is the man-cave being used for this experiment. I have a lot more stuff in it now, and the loft is further along now, but you get the idea.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/20180426_210127.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539703315)
 

Quote from: Woodpecker52 on October 16, 2018, 11:20:24 AM
Rot and mold is all you will get from wood on compacted gravel around here in Ms. I don't care if its treated or not ,plastic barrier or not.  If you want to do it on the cheap, I have in the past gone in and blocked off a square area, called in the concrete truck and free poured it and gravity leveled by hand and rake.  Its not a machined level floor but for storing equipment, tractor, woodworking ,lumber storage and just plain Mississippi foot stomping it works and its quick.  Gravity does a good job on its own, also balance ,you can spin a log with your finger simply by rolling it up on a small section of 2x4, in other words save that back you will need it down the road.

Peckerwood :-X...I mean woodpecker52...lol....thanks for your advice. I do live in KY, and I have the location of the barn up on the highest point of the surrounding area. It drains okay. I get a little moisture in the gravel, but I don't have anything blocking the water along the outside perimeter of the barn yet. I'd thing a good barrier 8"-12" deep below the toe boards would keep most of the water out. It only wicks into the barn from the outside. I also plan to add some lean-to style additions onto two of the more damp sides to protect from rain. 

Corduroy road - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corduroy_road)

Wood laid directly upon the ground can work, and has a history of thousands of years. Not far from where I live there is an old road lined with an attractive row of sycamore trees on either side. This is because the original road was a corduroy road of sycamore logs, and they sprouted. We find old Roman corduroy roads all the time, and even older ones. 

It's worth noting that wooden roads are historically laid across wetlands where other road types would not have worked. 

It does go against logic, but it does seem to work. 

ERC is soft and won't stand up to vehicle or equipment traffic at all. Locust is a lot better, but wood posts almost always fail right at the dirt / air line, which is exactly what your entire floor will be. 

One thing I have learned is to ask why things are not done a certain way, if there are valid reasons then I ask why I think I will have different results. Unless I have a very convincing explanation then I should expect to pay my share of "stupid tax" should I choose to continue with said idea. 

Quote from: Southside logger on October 16, 2018, 11:49:31 AM
ERC is soft and won't stand up to vehicle or equipment traffic at all. Locust is a lot better, but wood posts almost always fail right at the dirt / air line, which is exactly what your entire floor will be.

One thing I have learned is to ask why things are not done a certain way, if there are valid reasons then I ask why I think I will have different results. Unless I have a very convincing explanation then I should expect to pay my share of "stupid tax" should I choose to continue with said idea.

I've paid my fair share of stupid tax over the years. stupid_smileyWhich is one reason why I brought this thread to life. I figured more experienced guys might have some advice. 
Anyway, I agree to your logic. But there is always a caveat. Just because something isn't done a certain way, doesn't mean that it won't work. People come up with bright ideas all the time and they never do anything about these ideas because they believe the nay sayers. Don't get me wrong, I am not pioneering anything here, just looking for practical advice and possible solutions. 
At the end of the day, I just want to try something different. I am a different person. I was forced to conform to strict standards as a child and have been rebellious ever since I got the heck out. So, the more people who say I cannot or should not, the more motivated I am to find a solution...its nothing personal. This might end in disaster, but so did the first few SpacEx launches. And I am not doing anything that crazy, or anything that can't be fixed easily. 

Concreate will last a lifetime and then some.  Rebar is cheap. Yes you have a upfront expense but then you are done with it. If you need the comfort of wood you can add a wood floor to that section or rubber matts. Infloor heating is a great way for comfort.  But if a wooden floor is what you want just make sure its got plastic vapour barrie down first.  I live in a different climate and dont have the bugs.  Our basement had cement deteriorated due to alkaline soil.  Removed put in railroad ties treated joists and plywood then poly with a undelay of somesort on top 35 years ago dont remember.
Still solid.  But just us walking on it with some furniture. 

Quote from: RAYGYVER on October 16, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
So here is the man-cave being used for this experiment. I have a lot more stuff in it now, and the loft is further along now, but you get the idea.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/20180426_210127.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539703315)

Nice pole barn. In our area certain times of the year when temp and dew point is right we get a lot of frost on the inside of our pole barns and when the sun comes out it rains in the shed till the frost is gone. I would spend the money and pour some concrete where the lift will be and were you be working and leave the rest to rock. Pouring concrete with a couple buddy's would save a lot of money.  

Quote from: hedgerow on October 16, 2018, 12:30:31 PM

Quote from: RAYGYVER on October 16, 2018, 11:23:19 AM
So here is the man-cave being used for this experiment. I have a lot more stuff in it now, and the loft is further along now, but you get the idea.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/20180426_210127.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539703315)

Nice pole barn. In our area certain times of the year when temp and dew point is right we get a lot of frost on the inside of our pole barns and when the sun comes out it rains in the shed till the frost is gone. I would spend the money and pour some concrete where the lift will be and were you be working and leave the rest to rock. Pouring concrete with a couple buddy's would save a lot of money.  

Thanks for the reply. I already spent money on getting felt lined roof panels. The bottom side of the panels from the factory have felting that is glued to it. In the case there is humidity in the barn, and a cold air outside, the felt will absorb the moisture and wicks it up to the vented ridge where it evaporate. It works very well. I have yet to have a rain drop hit my head.

It's none of my business but it sounds a little high for approx 20 yards of concrete maybe 4 inches thick .6 inches thick would be around 30 yards and 9-10 grand still sounds high .I don't know the price  per yard  nor labor to place and finish 1600 sq feet but would guess it should be about half that price .

Quote from: Al_Smith on October 16, 2018, 12:56:16 PM
It's none of my business but it sounds a little high for approx 20 yards of concrete maybe 4 inches thick .6 inches thick would be around 30 yards and 9-10 grand still sounds high .I don't know the price  per yard  nor labor to place and finish 1600 sq feet but would guess it should be about half that price .

My thoughts exactly. I was being lazy and getting them to quote the form work, rebar and the pouring/finishing. Basically the whole job. Still, that was a lot of money just for the 40' x 40' area. I wanted a wood mill anyways, and I am stupid, so I decided to do something stupid and make a wood floor. Ha. Maybe it'll turn out not so stupid in the end? Time will tell....

Rerod wouldn't be that bad depending on where you buy it and the size .Forms are just 2 by 4's or 2 by 6 depending .

Just for general info those block floors from old time machine shops are treated placed either over concrete or hard tamped sand base .If water gets to them they swell up like a poisoned pup and literally explode out of the floor .I've seen it happen .The only reason they were ever installed was for ease of moving machinery like automotive assembley lines which used to change about every 5 years .They went the way of the passenger pigeon .After they disappeared it became mill pavers over concrete bedded  in sand . 

I think one could engineer a decent performing wood floor. It couldn't sit right on dirt though. A good vapor barrier over a base with drainage, treated sleepers, and some 1 1/2" white oak decking. A few guys have made floors for their mill sheds like this on here.

Concrete attracts moisture; I'm sure most know that.  I never paid much attention to foundations other than regular portland cement/concrete.  Growing up in Texas, that's all people did; funny thing was, there were tons of foundation repair companies out there jacking the heck out of foundations, and busting up all the cracked portions to re-pore. 

I then learned about Permanent Wood Foundations; I thought what kind of fool would do this, but it's a regular thing.  Just search Youtube; they have a video/documentary style, that demonstrated these going in a high water table area I believe in Minnesota.  They were actually building these PWF's as full basements with sump pumps.  The key as with many things is water drainage(lots of gravel), plus a vapor barrier/air barrier. 

I would think since there's gravel now, if it's smooth, fine, if not, add a little sand, then you could get away with laying a vapor barrier, then the wood. (I've been researching plywood floors for a home; go check that stuff out on Pinterest!)

Regarding the wood, and treatment, I'd definitely oil the boards all around, and perhaps check out some sort of Borax solution for bugs. 

I like the thread, there's always a million ways to do something, standards are just that, the standard; other things do work.

Just my thoughts - from a completely different environment and perspective than yours I'm sure - but if it was me and I had he need to build something that would be 'for life' and didn't like the commercial cost of purchasing a concrete delivered and set floor, I would just rent or preferably buy a reasonably sized cement mixer and do it in sections myself, as time and effort permitted.
Concrete floors need to be cut or scored in an attempt to avoid unwanted cracks that always will show up as the pour gets larger and to that end I would just do a square at a time using a wood form and pour it in whatever square footage batches in the cement quality you feel you need, in sections with plastic vapor barrier and/or mesh added to ensure the durability that you wish to attain.  
Adding expansion joint material like you see in sidewalks or just butting each successive section, you can make the final product as smooth or rough as you wish depending on your finishing talent or effort, with basically hand tools like a rake, shovel and hand trowel to end up with a floor that would or could be as professional looking as your ability or time allows.
It might seem pretty labour intensive but that can somewhat be lessened depending on the size of each poured piece and pretty much done and completed as your schedule allows. 
I personally don't consider that trying to do all of the work to make boards and get them down and attached to some sort of good base structure, would or could come to anywhere less or even a comparable amount of effort, cost, or time to end up with a better end product - unless your aim is to try and impress with the uniqueness of the wood floor.. 
If you are not in a hurry, it might be the best way cost-wise and effort-wise to end up with a cheaper and better floor than wood could ever be or more economical than a  commercially bought concrete deal..
But ultimately just having a floor poured all in one day in a commercially delivered job - being able to walk on it the next - and having it all over and done with after 3 days or less does come with it's own set of conveniences and advantages certainly - cost be damned!
Again just my own thoughts an alternative..  

My first reaction was it isn't going to work but I've held my opinion till others have chimed in. After waiting, I still think it's a bad idea and here's why. 

Any board laying on the ground is going to have a temperature gradient and a moisture gradient. Most of the time the lowest temperature and highest moisture level will be on the ground side and the highest temperature and lowest moisture level will be on the top side. It makes no difference if you use a vapor barrier or not. So that moisture and temperature gradient will be a problem that will cause warping, twisting, cupping and rot. The only question is how long will it take for the floor to be unusable.

Then there is going to be those days after a cold spell when the temperature rises and the rains (high humidity) come. On those days the floor can become a condenser with surface water everywhere. 

But don't take my opinion as gospel. Try your idea on a small area and see how it works before you go all in.

I've done a wood floor in an old house basement on a dirt floor. Worked great.

• Put layer of fine stone down to keep materials off direct contact and level sleeper grid.
• Cover entire are with heavy-gauge plastic sheeting. (Make sure water can't get on top of it at edges).
• Use PT sleepers on top of stone to attach flooring.
• Use white oak flooring, which is weather/rot resistant. Locust would work too.
• If you can afford to, place some blue foam board insulation between sleepers. It will take a BIG difference.

Lots and lots of labor, but may be worth it to you. Doubt it'll really be much of a savings, but looks and feels great.

After 10 years, mine looked great. Good luck.

p.s. On the concrete, check to see what thickness and mix of concrete they had spec'd. You may not need what they were suggesting.

Quote from: Al_Smith on October 16, 2018, 09:32:32 PM
Rerod wouldn't be that bad depending on where you buy it and the size .Forms are just 2 by 4's or 2 by 6 depending .

Just for general info those block floors from old time machine shops are treated placed either over concrete or hard tamped sand base .If water gets to them they swell up like a poisoned pup and literally explode out of the floor .I've seen it happen .The only reason they were ever installed was for ease of moving machinery like automotive assembley lines which used to change about every 5 years .They went the way of the passenger pigeon .After they disappeared it became mill pavers over concrete bedded  in sand .

I've done assembly line automation design for Caterpillar. They still use wood assembly line floors. Anytime they drop something, they pull up the damaged wood and replace it. They stack 2x4's on end. I think they are 6"+ long. So the end grain is sticking up. From what I understood, they just compacted the subsoil and installed the wood. I bet they had some sort of paver base or something...all that really heavy equipment would need more than just compacted soil. 

Quote from: realzed on October 17, 2018, 01:29:06 AM
Just my thoughts - from a completely different environment and perspective than yours I'm sure - but if it was me and I had he need to build something that would be 'for life' and didn't like the commercial cost of purchasing a concrete delivered and set floor, I would just rent or preferably buy a reasonably sized cement mixer and do it in sections myself, as time and effort permitted. - I HAVE A CEMENT MIXER!! LOL


Concrete floors need to be cut or scored in an attempt to avoid unwanted cracks that always will show up as the pour gets larger and to that end I would just do a square at a time using a wood form and pour it in whatever square footage batches in the cement quality you feel you need, in sections with plastic vapor barrier and/or mesh added to ensure the durability that you wish to attain.  
Adding expansion joint material like you see in sidewalks or just butting each successive section, you can make the final product as smooth or rough as you wish depending on your finishing talent or effort, with basically hand tools like a rake, shovel and hand trowel to end up with a floor that would or could be as professional looking as your ability or time allows.
It might seem pretty labour intensive but that can somewhat be lessened depending on the size of each poured piece and pretty much done and completed as your schedule allows.
I personally don't consider that trying to do all of the work to make boards and get them down and attached to some sort of good base structure, would or could come to anywhere less or even a comparable amount of effort, cost, or time to end up with a better end product - unless your aim is to try and impress with the uniqueness of the wood floor.. - I've got nothing to prove to anyone...just would like to have a wood floor in my man cave..

If you are not in a hurry, it might be the best way cost-wise and effort-wise to end up with a cheaper and better floor than wood could ever be or more economical than a  commercially bought concrete deal..its actually more expensive to buy bags of concrete than to have it delivered..I already did the math...and much harder on my back...

But ultimately just having a floor poured all in one day in a commercially delivered job - being able to walk on it the next - and having it all over and done with after 3 days or less does come with it's own set of conveniences and advantages certainly - cost be *danged! Thats the truth!!!

Again just my own thoughts an alternative..Thank you Sir!!  

Quote from: Gary_C on October 17, 2018, 01:38:04 AM
My first reaction was it isn't going to work but I've held my opinion till others have chimed in. After waiting, I still think it's a bad idea and here's why.

Any board laying on the ground is going to have a temperature gradient and a moisture gradient. Most of the time the lowest temperature and highest moisture level will be on the ground side and the highest temperature and lowest moisture level will be on the top side. It makes no difference if you use a vapor barrier or not. So that moisture and temperature gradient will be a problem that will cause warping, twisting, cupping and rot. The only question is how long will it take for the floor to be unusable.

Then there is going to be those days after a cold spell when the temperature rises and the rains (high humidity) come. On those days the floor can become a condenser with surface water everywhere.

But don't take my opinion as gospel. Try your idea on a small area and see how it works before you go all in.

Very good points. I wonder how one could engineer this to be a non issue? 
If the wood is colder than the moist air above it, it seems to make logical sense that it could condense, or at least absorb a large amount of water. The same principle would apply to concrete. If the concrete floor is cold and you get a moist spring day...it would do the same. How many times have any of you had issues with a damp concrete floor in a pole barn?
Anyway, the ultimate goal is to finish the interior walls as well. That is a whole other discussion. However, controlling the moisture buildup between the interior and exterior walls is the most important thing. That gap must be allowed to breath and evap any moisture that may condense on the cold steel. I know people finish out pole barns all the time, but I haven't done enough research on it to know exactly how to finish the interior walls properly. I bring this all up, because it done correctly, it may help control the environment inside the barn enough to lessen the effects of condensation forming on the floor, pointed out in the above comment from Gary. 

Quote from: PA_Walnut on October 17, 2018, 06:26:09 AM
I've done a wood floor in an old house basement on a dirt floor. Worked great.

• Put layer of fine stone down to keep materials off direct contact and level sleeper grid.
• Cover entire are with heavy-gauge plastic sheeting. (Make sure water can't get on top of it at edges).
• Use PT sleepers on top of stone to attach flooring.
• Use white oak flooring, which is weather/rot resistant. Locust would work too.
• If you can afford to, place some blue foam board insulation between sleepers. It will take a BIG difference.

Lots and lots of labor, but may be worth it to you. Doubt it'll really be much of a savings, but looks and feels great.

After 10 years, mine looked great. Good luck.

p.s. On the concrete, check to see what thickness and mix of concrete they had spec'd. You may not need what they were suggesting.

Thanks for the specs! I was actually beginning to form this exact idea in my head. Trying to control for the temperature differential with the foam board should make a huge difference in the rate of moisture change. 
I like the PT sleeper idea, also previously mentioned. Although it adds cost. 
Its a big barn, and getting the floor perfectly level will be next to impossible, but it should look close. Adding PT sleepers would help a lot I think with getting it leveled up before adding the final boards. It would be easy to run a line from one end to the other, taught, and measure from line to top of sleepers. 

I had another thought....if I lay down moisture barrier on top of the PT sleepers, then I trap moisture there. That doesn't sound like a good idea. I would think the better thing to do is put the moisture barrier under the foam and sleepers. 

so, its clay under gravel under sand under plastic barrier under sleepers and foam board.....

I've got an idea guys!! What would be the WORST wood to use in a situation like this??

If I take the worst wood, do a test area with it, and can get it to NOT rot, then I would have a method to apply to better wood and go from there.

Please remember guys, this is FOR FUN. I am not at all worried if it rots. Honestly, I think it would be FUN to play with this over years and years to see what works well. I just can't bring myself to do concrete, its so plain jane, boring, unattractive, basic and typical...blah! I'm 32 years old, I have time to mess around with this. 

Another type of wood floor is called End Grain Wood Floor maybe you could experiment with that too.

We have had good success getting rid of floor level moisture in a apartment building with a concrete floor by adding a layer of moisture barrier and foam board insulation. ( it previously had vapour barrier and carpet) We then strapped it and put down the 3/4 plywood.

The floor has a bit of spring in it and I don't think it would be a good idea to have anywhere that would have heavy equipment or vehicles on it but it did go from uncomfortably damp to no complaints. Foam board insulation in between sleepers  would be better than none but not as good as continuous to me.

Another option would be to use floor joist like standard construction, it would be much easier to get level and can be made with more clearance and no contact between ground and wood.

A layer of vapour barrier.

Pour a footing(s) as per span of floor joist or shallow post and wood beams.

Layer of tar paper and PT on any wood in contact with concrete.

Build floor. (it can still be insulated if desired)

I would still prefer a concrete floor where the lift is but that could be coloured, epoxied or even tiled to improve looks.

Quote from: RAYGYVER on October 17, 2018, 08:25:09 AM

Please remember guys, this is FOR FUN. I am not at all worried if it rots. Honestly, I think it would be FUN to play with this over years and years to see what works well. I just can't bring myself to do concrete, its so plain jane, boring, unattractive, basic and typical...blah! I'm 32 years old, I have time to mess around with this.

With your attitude on this idea I think you may be surprised how much you will like it and just how long it will last if done right. I think PA_Walnut gave you some good advice on design and wood species. Keeping that sub base free draining and dry with a vapor barrier will be a key factor. I hope you follow your idea and please document it here on the forestry forum for all of us to see. 

Quote from: red on October 17, 2018, 10:14:02 AM
Another type of wood floor is called End Grain Wood Floor maybe you could experiment with that too.

That is what is in the video I posted, and what I was talking about with the Caterpillar floor. 

Yeah, I think the right approach is to go into a project like this with a reasonable and healthy expectation that I may mess it up. 
I take delivery of my first mill tomorrow. Woodland HM126 with 14 hp upgrade. I have stainless steel sheets left over from a job that I am going to use to cover the bunks like on the HM130. I've also got a nice table saw, compound miter saw, planer and most all the typical hand tools. But I've got to get the garage floor going so I can build shelves and start organizing everything.
So once I get the mill going, I will be sawing some slabs to test out some theories! This should be a fun project to do, and hopefully fun for ya'll to laugh at when I screw it up royally..Haha
smiley_swinging_board  

you want a real good test make a couple 8'x8' pads with end grain exposed and edge grain exposed. Put them outside in the weather.

Be an accelerated life cycle test. use them as a normal floor. see how they react and last. If they last good outside they will last better inside. especially with proper water control. If I had more disposable logs I would make a couple platforms I could park cars on.

I would level the ground. put sand down then put 1 or 2" foam insulation board on the sand then set wood on top of that. make sure you tape all the seams. I bet that floor would last a very long time. plus it needs to be insulated either way. so worst case you just remove the wood and pour concrete over it later.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 17, 2018, 01:14:28 PM
you want a real good test make a couple 8'x8' pads with end grain exposed and edge grain exposed. Put them outside in the weather.

Be an accelerated life cycle test. use them as a normal floor. see how they react and last. If they last good outside they will last better inside. especially with proper water control. If I had more disposable logs I would make a couple platforms I could park cars on.

I would level the ground. put sand down then put 1 or 2" foam insulation board on the sand then set wood on top of that. make sure you tape all the seams. I bet that floor would last a very long time. plus it needs to be insulated either way. so worst case you just remove the wood and pour concrete over it later.

Won't the foam board compress and cause an uneven floor? Don't I need some support? Like the sleepers mentioned previously?

the sand is the support the foam is the vapor barrier. the tape seals the seams to complete the vapor barrier. You will never be able to get a high enough point load on the foam with a proper wood floor on top to do any damage to the foam.

That is how they do radiant concrete floors. but its usually compressed gravel leveled. then foam the your heating coils and mesh and rebar then pour over top. it does compress the foam into the low spots but the concrete levels the top. The foam will survive as long as it is not a giant hole. that is why I said use sand. much easier to level ad will not poke holes in face of foam.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 17, 2018, 01:49:13 PM
the sand is the support the foam is the vapor barrier. the tape seals the seams to complete the vapor barrier. You will never be able to get a high enough point load on the foam with a proper wood floor on top to do any damage to the foam.

That is how they do radiant concrete floors. but its usually compressed gravel leveled. then foam the your heating coils and mesh and rebar then pour over top. it does compress the foam into the low spots but the concrete levels the top. The foam will survive as long as it is not a giant hole. that is why I said use sand. much easier to level ad will not poke holes in face of foam.

Very good point. If I use large boards with a lot of surface area they will spread the load out over the foam. I like where this is going. 
This solves the vapor barrier and temperature issues.....and its way cheaper than using the sleepers!!

even if you use a 4x4 end grain once you put them all together into a floor the point load will be spread out over the full grid not just a point.

One thing about aggregate size, small aggregate can capillary moisture that is the reason for larger clean stone under a slab. Without sleepers what are the floorboards connected to to keep them down and in plane? I thought about 4x4 and 4x6 for the shop floor edge lagged together, similar to a nail lam bridge deck.

I remember a guy using pallets under his floor on gravel for aeration, then applied the floor.  A lot of folks cried that it would allow rodents a place to hide/live, but if it's sealed up, and no access points, and more importantly not a bunch of food sources, I could see this working.  If too concerned with rodents, put a little poison down inside before covering. 

I guess this is a mute point, since you are not going with the concrete anyway, but mixing the concrete yourself, will not only be a LOT of work... it won't save you very much money either after you buy the portland cement, rock, and the sand.  If you can come up with the aggreate you might come out cost wise.  I have a small mixer and mixed up enough concrete to pour the top for a small table last week; it was a lot of work for a very small amount of surface area.  Anything over a half a yard of mix, and I will call the ready mix company.  I hope you keep your progress updated on this as it is an intresting concept.  Banjo

Quote from: Banjo picker on October 18, 2018, 06:35:11 AM
I guess this is a mute point, since you are not going with the concrete anyway, but mixing the concrete yourself, will not only be a LOT of work... it won't save you very much money either after you buy the portland cement, rock, and the sand.  If you can come up with the aggreate you might come out cost wise.  I have a small mixer and mixed up enough concrete to pour the top for a small table last week; it was a lot of work for a very small amount of surface area.  Anything over a half a yard of mix, and I will call the ready mix company.  I hope you keep your progress updated on this as it is an intresting concept.  Banjo

I completely agree. I got a concrete mixer through trading. I've used it one time. I said to myself "Screw this!" All those bags, dust, mess....I'd much rather be throwing wood chips off a mill, or planer.....dontcha know?

Okay, assuming this is all compacted. The only issue I see is the rebar rusting in the subsoil, and the rebar penetrating the moisture barrier (foam board). I could coat the rebar to slow the rusting, and maybe squirt a little silicone down into each hole before pounding in the rebar? I think the foam will probably act as a fairly decent seal up against the rebar. Thoughts fellas?



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/FLOOR_LAYERS.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539862600)

the 12" rebar is just stakes in the boards to keep them from moving. It will penetrate everything all the way into the subsoil. I don't like that idea.

I was thinking using 2x4 on edge. then you will have a 4" thick floor that can be screwed or nailed together through the sides. Let the floor float.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 18, 2018, 07:44:11 AM
the 12" rebar is just stakes in the boards to keep them from moving. It will penetrate everything all the way into the subsoil. I don't like that idea.

I was thinking using 2x4 on edge. then you will have a 4" thick floor that can be screwed or nailed together through the sides. Let the floor float.

If I do that, how will I replace an individual board? I would love the look of what you suggest, and it would solve the top face remaining in plane, but makes it much harder to rip it up if need be.
hmmmmm......

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/think.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539863357)
 

Speaking from experience ( my garage floor is wood), it sucks, the biggest suck part is when you're moving an engine hanging from an engine Crane and it gets stuck between boards that have inevitably moved up or down, that and when you're trying to stab a transmission back in a vehicle and while you're trying to have finesse, the whole Jack and tranny get hung up on a board. That being said, this one is over 20 years old so they can last, and when you still fluids you don't even have to clean them up, give it a half hour and it'll all soak Into the boards lol...

sawzall and glue.

use sawzall to cut nails pull the board then glue new one back in. the glue will keep it sealed. I am thinking that you probably will not be changing boards 1 at a time. I would bet a section would fail. if you make 12" wide sections then you can replace a 12" wide section at a time.

you really want to get fancy put butterflies in them to hold the 12" plank sections together. I would avoid going through the vapor barrier and insulation once those are broken your life of the floor decreases severely.

You may also want to put tongue and groove on the 12" sections (sides and ends).

Quote from: Upstatewoodchuc on October 18, 2018, 07:52:07 AM
Speaking from experience ( my garage floor is wood), it sucks, the biggest suck part is when you're moving an engine hanging from an engine Crane and it gets stuck between boards that have inevitably moved up or down, that and when you're trying to stab a transmission back in a vehicle and while you're trying to have finesse, the whole Jack and tranny get hung up on a board. That being said, this one is over 20 years old so they can last, and when you still fluids you don't even have to clean them up, give it a half hour and it'll all soak Into the boards lol...

That is hilarious. Just let it soak....
I have a car lift and an engine crane, I bet removing engines and transmissions would be easier on wood, than gravel...wink wink...
Anyway, if I can figure a way of keeping the top faces all in plane, I'll have less of this issue. Also, I plan on slowing the pace of engine work as I get older. I have two more project to complete before I am done! I think the next one after those will be purchasing something someone else already did the hard part...

Upstate, what material is your floor? I still keep contemplating small sections of wood flooring open to the elements just to park cars on out of the mud.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 18, 2018, 07:56:11 AM
sawzall and glue.

use sawzall to cut nails pull the board then glue new one back in. the glue will keep it sealed. I am thinking that you probably will not be changing boards 1 at a time. I would bet a section would fail. if you make 12" wide sections then you can replace a 12" wide section at a time.

you really want to get fancy put butterflies in them to hold the 12" plank sections together. I would avoid going through the vapor barrier and insulation once those are broken your life of the floor decreases severely.

You may also want to put tongue and groove on the 12" sections (sides and ends).

I'll have to see what a butterfly is...."hey google!"

Butterflys look like a lot of work

maybe use a truss plate? alot less work :)

not nearly as nice looking though.

a butterfly can be created using a dovetail router bit. be better if you can get a big enough one. but its doable with a small one.

hmm quick search just turned up a 1x1x1/2" 14 degree dovetail router bit. for $28. That would work.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 18, 2018, 08:14:18 AM
hmm quick search just turned up a 1x1x1/2" 14 degree dovetail router bit. for $28. That would work.

You might be onto something there. 

There is some foam boards that have strapping groves made in them, the strapping would lie flush with the top of the foam and provide a place to fasten the floor boards to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw7lg6Okvks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw7lg6Okvks)

If you wanted something thicker than strapping another option would be to lay down a layer of foam and then add nailers with more foam in between the same thickness as the nailers.

That foam board cuts really nice on a table saw BTW.

be real easy to make up butterfly stock in 6' lengths then cut to length and install. simple table saw work.

If you really want to get fancy you make a jig to cut it then you will have a bit matched to a jig and can make them real easy whenever you need to.

You wouldn't want cross-grain in those butterflies.  

Labor is starting to add up fast on this job.

Looking forward to seeing the progress though.

GOT A NEW TOY FOR THE HOMESTEAD!!!! I think my sons where more excited than me......nah. ;D

<br
>(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/HM126BOX.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1539949660)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/HM126_UNBOXING.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1539949656)
 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/SHINY_ENGINE_HM126.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1539949660)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/HM126_TRACK.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1539949657)
 

Any thoughts on this? This still allows for easy disassembly, and solves the issues of the rebar penetrating the moisture barrier, and the top faces staying in plane. Negatives would be using a lot of wood screws.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/NEW_DESIGN_BOARD.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539952944)
 

Congrats on the new mill! 

Quote from: RAYGYVER on October 19, 2018, 08:44:05 AM
Any thoughts on this? This still allows for easy disassembly, and solves the issues of the rebar penetrating the moisture barrier, and the top faces staying in plane. Negatives would be using a lot of wood screws.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/NEW_DESIGN_BOARD.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539952944)

If you went with this method I would suggest you lay the bottom layer on a diagonal to the top layer. 

Quote from: DPatton on October 19, 2018, 08:51:05 AM

Quote from: RAYGYVER on October 19, 2018, 08:44:05 AM
Any thoughts on this? This still allows for easy disassembly, and solves the issues of the rebar penetrating the moisture barrier, and the top faces staying in plane. Negatives would be using a lot of wood screws.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/NEW_DESIGN_BOARD.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539952944)

If you went with this method I would suggest you lay the bottom layer on a diagonal to the top layer.

I am not following your thought. There is one wood layer. Under that is foam...I am not sure what you mean. Thanks for the comment.  8)

Quote from: DPatton on October 19, 2018, 08:49:10 AM
Congrats on the new mill!

Hey thanks! Looks like you've got a nice one yourself! That's a really nice one. Maybe I'll get there one day, but I'll see how we like using this one and doing the wood projects it'll bring us first.

Quote from: DPatton on October 19, 2018, 08:51:05 AM

Quote from: RAYGYVER on October 19, 2018, 08:44:05 AM
Any thoughts on this? This still allows for easy disassembly, and solves the issues of the rebar penetrating the moisture barrier, and the top faces staying in plane. Negatives would be using a lot of wood screws.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/NEW_DESIGN_BOARD.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539952944)

If you went with this method I would suggest you lay the bottom layer on a diagonal to the top layer.

Okay, I think I know what you meant, There is not two layers of wood. Its one 2" thick board with a square cut on each side. You alternate the boards to lock them together. I see you probably thought there are two layers of 1" thick boards. 

Dpatton has a good point. of you have all the layers going the same direction they will pull apart. its like plywood, they alternate the grain between layers to resist pull apart.

Diagonal or perpendicular to the floor will make a ton of sense. I would lean towards just perpendicular since it is a lot less material usage.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 19, 2018, 09:26:52 AM
Dpatton has a good point. of you have all the layers going the same direction they will pull apart. its like plywood, they alternate the grain between layers to resist pull apart.

Diagonal or perpendicular to the floor will make a ton of sense. I would lean towards just perpendicular since it is a lot less material usage.

This might clear things up. One layer, not two.
<b
r>(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/NEW_DESIGN_BOARD_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539956001)



(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/board.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1539956130)
 

what I was referring to was the substrate not the wood. 2 layers of wood is unnecessary.

The substrate is foam board. Its not going to matter what direction I run the foam. Under that is the sand/gravel compacted layer. So, I am not sure exactly what layer you are referring to that I would run diagonally or perpendicular. 

if you run the long seam of the foam board to match the long seam of the wood then you will have a spot that will pull itself apart over time. you want to make the seams perpendicular to each other so they resist pulling apart.

aka alternating grain.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 19, 2018, 10:27:16 AM
if you run the long seam of the foam board to match the long seam of the wood then you will have a spot that will pull itself apart over time. you want to make the seams perpendicular to each other so they resist pulling apart.

aka alternating grain.

Ok. I get what you are saying. It is possible the long end of a wood board might rest directly onto the long edge of foam board. So yeah, good point. I'll make sure they are perp.
Anyone know what kind of tape is used in joining foam board? Certainly regular ole duct tape isn't going to work....or would it?

XPS VS EPS rigid foam insulation article. good read...

https://www.concreteconstruction.net/how-to/site-prep/choosing-between-eps-and-xps-rigid-insulation_o

I have been working on a "super cooler" for a off grid camp and using leftover pieces of foam board to make a foam box, I taped the box together with regular duct tape and the pieces that I stretched a bit to get some tension on to hold things tight did not stay on the pieces that I did not stretch sort of stayed and the pieces that I went all around the box and returned to tape stayed.

In short the tape did not stick well to the foam but did stick well to itself so far.

The foam box will be covered with a wood box in the end so it won't matter for my application.

Your right I did think you were showing two 1" layers of wood, my bad.

  However I would suggest against the method you are proposing simply because normal seasonal movement of your floor boards will split each board at your fastening pattern. a board that wide will shrink and or swell significantly with moisture and humidity changes. That's why most wood floors are built using narrower boards. 

Quote from: Hilltop366 on October 19, 2018, 10:46:47 AM
I have been working on a "super cooler" for a off grid camp and using leftover pieces of foam board to make a foam box, I taped the box together with regular duct tape and the pieces that I stretched a bit to get some tension on to hold things tight did not stay on the pieces that I did not stretch sort of stayed and the pieces that I went all around the box and returned to tape stayed.

In short the tape did not stick well to the foam but did stick well to itself so far.

The foam box will be covered with a wood box in the end so it won't matter for my application.

Hilltop,
I built one similar to that years ago. It is 4' x 4' x 2'+ tall. I made a plywood box with a 1' x 1' angle iron frame to hold it all together. Placed a 15 mil plastic liner inside of the wood box and snug fit 3" thick blue DOW rigid foam on all sides, bottom and top. Then installed side handles, keyed locks, and a chain stop for the lid. it was built to fit the back of a full sized pickup bed and has worked great for icing down elk, antelope, or hogs for the trip home. It also serves as an nice dry storage box in the back of a pickup. 

Quote from: DPatton on October 19, 2018, 10:51:57 AM
Your right I did think you were showing two 1" layers of wood, my bad.

 However I would suggest against the method you are proposing simply because normal seasonal movement of your floor boards will split each board at your fastening pattern. a board that wide will shrink and or swell significantly with moisture and humidity changes. That's why most wood floors are built using narrower boards.

hmmmmm......I was not factoring in the shrinkage and swelling......
Maybe a narrower board should be spec'd here. The big question is can I make it narrow enough to still fasten using screws? If not, then the next question would be, can I get away with no fasteners? Just let the boards float. At that point, I should just use full 12" wide boards. I may have to vacuum out the seams a couple times a year.....hmmmmm
I should at this point remind myself that this floor isn't going to perform like concrete. So I will need to engineer the negative traits to an acceptable level. Shrinkage being the bigger issue....thats what she said.
 

They have a red construction tape i think it maybe called tuck tape used around windows plywood joints sheet foam joints. Check HD.

make is out of 2x4's screw them together in 12" pieces then set them together and let them float.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 19, 2018, 11:36:49 AM
make is out of 2x4's screw them together in 12" pieces then set them together and let them float.

That sounds like a lot more work honestly. I might go with 2" thick and 8" wide. Do a 10' x 10' test area and see how it performs.

If the boards are fastened together as one unit and not fastened to anything else would it expand and shrink as a unit and not split at the seams? It certainly would need a expansion gap along the walls.

For fastening the foam together I can remember having trouble doing a floor with the foam moving around and thinking if there was a way to stitch them together with some sort of spring loaded clip that could be spread a bit with a hand tool and then insert one leg from each side of the clip in each sheet of foam. Its pretty hard to have a original thought these days so someone must have come up with something by now.

Could you go with t+g boards, or boards that are dowelled together? That would hold the top surfaces flush, assuming they're milled/joined accurately (or better yet, you just run over the assembled floor with a sander to make it smooth). The only potential problem with this method is if the boards push out with expansion, when they shrink back down small gaps will open up. 

Wider boards will be prone to wider gaps. But that's assuming all things being equal, which they wont be. Most likely one or two joints will gap large instead of the boards coming apart evenly all around. You could of course solve this by having a wedge you can drive in at the edge of the floor to push the boards all back tight. 
 

The thing I'd worry about fastening the boards together is that the friction of the floor surface would tear them apart when they try to contract, splitting the boards where the screws are or just ripping part of the lap off of one of the boards. 

I agree that tongue and groove might be better than using fasteners.  The T&G would help keep the boards aligned.  I was also wondering if it would be possible to mill some kind of locking joint similar to Pergo-type floors?  Between the foam and wood, you might need some material to reduce friction to allow them to move easier with expansion/contraction?

All, thanks for the comments. This is exactly why I put this thread together. I knew you guys would help evolve the project.

T&G would be easy enough on a table saw to create the tongue side, and a router down the groove side. That would solve the top plane issue. It wouldn't pull apart and cause cracks. 

I might be over thinking this whole thing. Just Tongue and Groove the boards, expansion joints at the walls and be done with it. 

I can't wait to get the mill going.

Now, material.....there is a lot of Ash around here....its hard, so I would think Ash would make a good floor board. Any objections?

lots of barns around me with ash floors. hay mows, drive floors, all ash. Bugs will find it eventually though. powder post beetles are fond of it. Wash it down with borax often, that'll keep the bugs and mold at bay

you really want to get fancy make a post tension floor. Drill holes all the way through the floor and install cables to keep it tight. In concrete this strengthens the floor alot. I don't think it will strengthen a wood floor but it will hold it tight and cables with stretch with the floor.

I have been trying to find a set of router bits to make a pergo style tongue for a while. If anybody has any suggestions or ways of doing it I would be very interested. I have radiant floor heat in the concrete slab in my house. I want hardwood floors but have no way of fastening them to the concrete. A simple tongue and groove will just pull apart creating gaps.

Giving it some more thought, I doubt a Pergo-type connection would work.  Unlike Pergo which is an engineered substrate, solid wood is going to have much greater expansion and contraction.  I just can't imagine that a large floor could float/move enough to keep it from tearing the connections apart--especially if you had heavy items sitting on it.

Crusarius--I want to put in radiant floor heat when I build my retirement house.  I was also wondering if you can put a wood floor on top.  I think if you did use T&G, the boards would have to be narrow to minimize the size of the gaps.  I was thinking it would have to be either really pretty cement or tile with throw rugs on top!

I have a glued down engineered wood floor (about 3" wide) over concrete with in floor heat in my living room. It is made from three layers of wood with alternating wood grain, there has been no problems with gaps from seasonal movement but like any wood floor anywhere there has been a water spill that has sat for a bit (over watered plant, leaky Christmas tree stand) the wood has pushed apart and then dried leaving a slight gap with discoloured edges and lifting of the finish along the edges.

Heat transfer seams slower compared to the tiled sections of the house so it may be advantageous to add a second source of heat to get enough heat in a large room if you live in a area with fast temperature swings.

If I was doing it over again I would be tempted to find a different way to build other than floors directly on concrete.

If building now and wanted a slab I would be looking at using a wood boiler with large thermal storage tank and a wood framed floor over concrete with in floor heat (not in the concrete) plus either radiators or a heat pump. The big advantages with this would be more forgiving floors (softer), the ability to be able to heat up or cool down a room much quicker but still be able to have a even temperature level with comfortable floor temperature. 

Quote from: Brian_Weekley on October 20, 2018, 09:51:28 AM
Crusarius--I want to put in radiant floor heat when I build my retirement house.  I was also wondering if you can put a wood floor on top.  I think if you did use T&G, the boards would have to be narrow to minimize the size of the gaps.  I was thinking it would have to be either really pretty cement or tile with throw rugs on top!

You don't necessarily have to do it in concrete. you can do it on plywood and joists then place hardwood on top. I already have the slab so I am kinda stuck. I never realized how much I like having it till I had it. My shop will be getting it also.

Hilltop, that is the hardest thing. Trying to have floor warm enough to heat entire house but not to warm your feet are on fire. I have a wood stove for the volume and use the radiant floor for the contents.

If I was using just the radiant floor I would need to have it quite a bit warmer to keep house warm and then it would not be comfortable for my feet.

Well, I got the mill put together this afternoon. Runs well. The blade tracks good. I haven't cut anything yet. Its really windy here today and I am beat. I'll try cutting something tomorrow.

Here is a link on calculating wood shrinkage and expansion:

How to Calculate Wood Shrinkage and Expansion | Popular Woodworking Magazine (https://www.popularwoodworking.com/tricks/how-to-calculate-wood-shrinkage-and-expansion/)

and another:

Calculating for Wood Movement - FineWoodworking (https://www.finewoodworking.com/2013/08/29/calculating-for-wood-movement)

Well, I cut my first log this weekend. I had cut down about two months ago a rather tall Honey Locust. So I used it as the experimental first log. The wood was beautifully spalted. I got a nice 10' long by 2 1/4" thick slab, and a 10' long 4 x 6. The trunk wasn't super straight, but straight enough to get those pieces. I'm guessing I am making a live edge coffee table out of the first board I ever cut. 

I think I've been bit by the wood bug....its all I can think about now. 

I've got a pile of Ash logs a buddy found for me, I'll be picking those up this week. I'll probably try to make the first 10' x 10" section of this wood floor out of those.  

 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/IMG-9972.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1540228638)
 

I think if I were set on using solid wood and having the limited floor height. I would put down my foam, then lay green treated 2x4 flat 16" centers, then use your sawed lumber on that roughly 2" thick and ship lapped.  So you have total height of approximately 4 1/2".  I think you could go much thinner with boards also, depending on what your putting in there.

Quote from: Ruffgear on October 22, 2018, 04:26:56 PM
I think if I were set on using solid wood and having the limited floor height. I would put down my foam, then lay green treated 2x4 flat 16" centers, then use your sawed lumber on that roughly 2" thick and ship lapped.  So you have total height of approximately 4 1/2".  I think you could go much thinner with boards also, depending on what your putting in there.

Thank you for your input. What is the benefit of the treated 2x4s? If the foam board is my moisture barrier, do I really need treated 2x4s?
I want the wood to be in full contact with the foam. If I lay the 1"-2" thick boards on top of 2x4's then that creates an air gap between the foam and bottom of the floor boards. Full contact with the floor boards spreads the load out. I would be increasing point load on the foam if all the load was put through the wide side of the 2x4s. 16" O.C. treated 2x4 over a 40' x 40' floor increases the cost significantly also.
I like the ship lap idea, basically the same idea I had in the pictures in previous post, just the lap was on the same side in my design. 6, half dozen, or the other. My design would have the drawback of every other board looking wider than the previous. Traditional shiplap would make every board look the same width.

If your confident no moisture will get through or on your foam you may not need green treated. I guess I would treat them as joists on concrete or ground, in my area code would require green. I've seen many people try and get by without, seems to come back and bite em. Currently a project I'm on they put plastic under plates rather than use green, they've all rotted away.
I agree it would increase point load and cost, but you would save by using less lumber.  Getting your dirt perfectly flat can be a chore and this would allow you to float over some of that. Would be similar to how they do gymnasiun floor.

Ruff,
  I see what you are saying. If I can get 10 years out of the floor before needing to replace some pieces, I'd be good with that. I think I can do better than 10 years though. I don't have any code around here for barn floors. 

So, I liked the shiplap idea. This thursday I am going to go pick up a bunch of Ash logs from a friend. I'll start milling slabs and start the drying process. I don't have a kiln, so they will be air dried in the barn. Anyway, I have some really old rough sawn lumber I pulled out of a barn in Indiana. I think I'll take the time to make a test area for the barn. I'll compact the soil and gravel, bring in the sand and go get one 4'x8' foam board. I'll make up the shiplap and test out the floor design below in the 3D model. I'll sit my engine stand on it, and put the Impala's 327 on it to see how it settles, if at all. If it survives that, it should survive everything else I throw at it. That is a lot of point load on three little caster wheels.

More importantly, I'll be looking for moisture build-up under the boards. If it stays dry, even when a little moisture has wicked into the gravel below, I'll be pretty confident the foam will suffice as the moisture barrier.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/SHIPLAP_2X8_WITH_FOAM.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540293259)
 

you may want to use 2" foam instead of 1" will give you a more comfortable temperature in the floor. and take out the bounce a little better. Just in case you do have low spots in the sand.

I'd bag the sand if possible and use #9's to avoid capillary moisture through the fine aggregate. That's why we use clean washed rock under a slab. I'd be aggressive with the casters/engine around the shiplap and see if they break off. The shorter and thicker you can make them the better. I like the gym floor idea, you can use more or total sleeper area out of your ugly wood. IIRC the foam is good for ~10psi, there are 144si's in a sf. Residential loading is 40 psf, commercial 100psf, shop is whatever you need but there probably won't be a tank on it.

Quote from: Don P on October 23, 2018, 07:36:54 AM
I'd bag the sand if possible and use #9's to avoid capillary moisture through the fine aggregate. That's why we use clean washed rock under a slab. I'd be aggressive with the casters/engine around the shiplap and see if they break off. The shorter and thicker you can make them the better. I like the gym floor idea, you can use more or total sleeper area out of your ugly wood. IIRC the foam is good for ~10psi, there are 144si's in a sf. Residential loading is 40 psf, commercial 100psf, shop is whatever you need but there probably won't be a tank on it.

Bag the sand? 
I have noticed the #57's gravel the contractor put down was not washed. Is this a major problem? I have noticed when the ground is wet outside, there is a capillary action (I call it wicking effect) and the gravel will appear wet a few feet from the wall. Should I remove the gravel and wash it? That would be a lot of work with no skid steer....The other option I was trying to show in the picture, was taking foam down the toe plate of the barn, down past the gravel, creating a moisture barrier from the outside soil making contact with the gravel. That would be less work than washing the gravel.
What you see in the model is 2" boards with a 1" x 1" lap. That is a good point. Maybe keep it 1" deep, but with a 1/2" lap. 
There are 4608 si's in a 4' x 8' sheet of foam. At only 10 psi thats a butt-load of loading ability. An engine stand and a 327 ain't going to touch that!! I am only working with 4" above the gravel I already have in the barn. So going 2" foam would force me to have to go with a thinner floor board, making thinner laps....I'd like to keep the boards 2". 

I would do an 8x8 floor so you have a joint in the foam. that is something worth testing to see how the floor reacts over the joint and how the joint reacts under the floor.

If I didn't have such nice hardwoods I am cutting I would be very tempted to try this same experiment.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 23, 2018, 08:01:49 AM
I would do an 8x8 floor so you have a joint in the foam. that is something worth testing to see how the floor reacts over the joint and how the joint reacts under the floor.

If I didn't have such nice hardwoods I am cutting I would be very tempted to try this same experiment.

Good point. two sheets of foam it is. I'll be running those foam joints perp to the floor boards. I'll be staggering the joints, so the foam board joints will never have a 4-way intersection.

perfect. If it wasn't for all the stuff I already need to get done before the winter this would be a fun test to do. I still have 44 logs that need to be milled before winter. Of course mother nature has a different idea. Its been raining every time I can get the mill out.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 23, 2018, 08:19:25 AM
perfect. If it wasn't for all the stuff I already need to get done before the winter this would be a fun test to do. I still have 44 logs that need to be milled before winter. Of course mother nature has a different idea. Its been raining every time I can get the mill out.

Well that sucks. Might have to get out there and do it in the rain!! That could be dangerous. 
Yeah I can't wait to get this done! My barn is going to be the coolest man-cave I've seen around here. Wood floors, board and batten walls....The handrail in the loft will have milled rails, and I am doing rebar spindles. 
So, after the main floor....I still have the loft floor to do. That'll be a lot less complicated!

Quote from: RAYGYVER on October 23, 2018, 07:56:49 AMI have noticed when the ground is wet outside, there is a capillary action (I call it wicking effect) and the gravel will appear wet a few feet from the wall.

Probably should look into how water is being drained (or not drained) away from the perimeter of the building. I'd make sure the perimeter drained water away from the building.  Change grading or put trench/gravel/drain pipe to get water away from the building.  Gutters?

Quote from: btulloh on October 23, 2018, 08:26:21 AM

Quote from: RAYGYVER on October 23, 2018, 07:56:49 AMI have noticed when the ground is wet outside, there is a capillary action (I call it wicking effect) and the gravel will appear wet a few feet from the wall.

Probably should look into how water is being drained (or not drained) away from the perimeter of the building. I'd make sure the perimeter drained water away from the building.  Change grading or put trench/gravel/drain pipe to get water away from the building.  Gutters?

Gutters yes. 
I did install a french drain along the front of the barn where there is a slight slope towards the barn. I cannot fix that slope. I am at the highest (almost) point on the property. I did hire a guy to come regrade in the spring and that helped a lot. I screwed up and took my downspout straight down to the ground and put the connector that connects the downspout to the underground corrugated pipe at grade level. I was getting water coming out of that connector and seeping into the ground. I have since shortened the downspout and now have it tied together much better, no spillage in that corner now. Still, I think a little more work around the perimeter wouldn't hurt. At this point I am thinking because the exterior walls are so tall, I am getting rain hitting the walls, and running straight down and collecting at the toe plate. Not sure how to solve this other than installing a french drain at the base of the wall. 

I don't see what would hold shiplap down.  If boards twist and warp, there's nothing to help hold them together and in place like T&G.  Maybe consider splines if you don't want to cut T&G?

Quote from: Brian_Weekley on October 23, 2018, 10:45:09 AM
I don't see what would hold shiplap down.  If boards twist and warp, there's nothing to help hold them together and in place like T&G.  Maybe consider splines if you don't want to cut T&G?

If I air dry the slabs before final dimensioning, won't they hold their shape pretty well? T&G would be a little more work upfront, but not much more than the shiplap....
Anyway, I have to mill the Ash, and let it dry for awhile. So we have time to really work this out.

This this application you cannot expect the boards to hold their shape. They will be subject to uneven loading and moisture conditions (such as spilled liquids) that will cause them to move in unpredictable ways. 

Remember that once a split, twist, or warp has started it is impossible to stop it. However, properly tying things together will prevent this process starting, and cause the stresses to find an easier path to resolution. 

So your best bet is really to t+g the boards together. This will keep them moving unevenly by redistributing the stress across multiple boards -or throughout the floor as a whole. There is a reason why heavy duty wooden floor is always t+g'd together. This is the most efficient method there is to get the floor to function as a single unit, rather than as a bunch of boards sitting beside each other. 

Quote from: D L Bahler on October 23, 2018, 11:13:29 AM
This this application you cannot expect the boards to hold their shape. They will be subject to uneven loading and moisture conditions (such as spilled liquids) that will cause them to move in unpredictable ways.

Remember that once a split, twist, or warp has started it is impossible to stop it. However, properly tying things together will prevent this process starting, and cause the stresses to find an easier path to resolution.

So your best bet is really to t+g the boards together. This will keep them moving unevenly by redistributing the stress across multiple boards -or throughout the floor as a whole. There is a reason why heavy duty wooden floor is always t+g'd together. This is the most efficient method there is to get the floor to function as a single unit, rather than as a bunch of boards sitting beside each other.

I guess you're right. I'm pretty new to wood working, and especially new to drying milled lumber and estimating movement. This experiment shall be a learning experience. 
The T&G should be easy enough to cut on the table saw, and maybe I will build a router table for my router to cut the groove side. 
So I guess....a beveled T&G approach is appropriate?
Well....I drew it up. So if I have a beveled T&G it'll go together easier than if the T&G were square. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/TG1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540312078)
 
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/TG2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540312140)
 

you can buy router bit sets for tongue and groove. I do not think I have ever seen any tapered. I would not want tapered. that will be much more likely to push itself apart. I would rather have the face of the boards tight together than the tongue. proper tongue and groove does not actually allow the tongue to bottom out in the groove.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 23, 2018, 12:34:25 PM
you can buy router bit sets for tongue and groove. I do not think I have ever seen any tapered. I would not want tapered. that will be much more likely to push itself apart. I would rather have the face of the boards tight together than the tongue. proper tongue and groove does not actually allow the tongue to bottom out in the groove.

Good to know. I'll google those router bit sets!!!

Menards sells 2x6 x 20' T&G SYP with the beveled T&G like I had modeled up.....just throwing that out there. This does give me an idea of how fast that new saw mill will pay for itself though...hahaha 8)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/TG3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540314768)
 

This is how I did mine:

Tongue and Groove in Timber Framing/Log construction (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=62910.msg944416#msg944416)

I still think you need a cross member underneath to tie everything together (keep from cupping etc) then you can get by with shiplap, just have exposed fasteners. You could always beef up below if you have an idea of where your loads will be. Around here you go straight down with foam around perimeter at least 2', but that's for frost. I also agree with Don on the rock and 2" foam. Should be a fun project, good luck.

Quote from: Ruffgear on October 23, 2018, 02:18:47 PM
I still think you need a cross member underneath to tie everything together (keep from cupping etc) then you can get by with shiplap, just have exposed fasteners. You could always beef up below if you have an idea of where your loads will be. Around here you go straight down with foam around perimeter at least 2', but that's for frost. I also agree with Don on the rock and 2" foam. Should be a fun project, good luck.

Assuming I could compact the gravel to give me an additional 1", or removing some gravel, I'd have more room to work with. Maybe I could do some sleepers on top of a 1" foam board. Then fill in between those sleepers with 1" foam board giving me a better insulation and moisture barrier. Shiplap would be much easier to cut. Its two cuts per board edge on the table saw. But I would have more cost in foam and sleepers. I might be able to get away with using untreated sleepers that I have milled since they will be on top of a foam board. 
In terms of spills, I do plan on laying a large rubber mat down under the lift as I work on cars. I'm not so naive to think I will never spill it on the wood, but hey, it would be easy enough to replace.
The big negative to T&G is that I cannot easily replace a board in the middle of the floor. Shiplap would be easy to replace, but should probably require the sleepers.
I'd rather have the functionality and convenience the shiplap brings. It might not be as stable at T&G, but maybe it will be stable enough when screwed to a sleeper grid....hmmmm...
This is fun guys, thanks for the brainstorming....

Shiplap with 1x8 sleepers. 2 layers of 1" foam. 


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/shiplapwithsleepers.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540320972)
 

I like that better. I agree with you on ship lap, much easier to make. I've only made my own tongue and groove a couple times, a bit of a pain wtitout proper machinery. Last time I did a clg and just made groove on both sides then made a spline to fit between two boards.
Do you have any door openings you have to worry about water getting in?

Quote from: Ruffgear on October 23, 2018, 03:11:32 PM
I like that better. I agree with you on ship lap, much easier to make. I've only made my own tongue and groove a couple times, a bit of a pain wtitout proper machinery. Last time I did a clg and just made groove on both sides then made a spline to fit between two boards.
Do you have any door openings you have to worry about water getting in?

Two man doors and a large 12' wide slider. My plan on that was to do a concrete or stone paver pad about 2'-3' from the door. Just some place to step in and not get water on the wood. I want to come up with a way to seal the slider door also. I think I can with some large sweeps. Won't be totally sealed, but good enough. 

https://youtu.be/hIqOgqpNLXw (https://youtu.be/hIqOgqpNLXw)

This guy brings up some good points....

Thanks Ray. you just solved all my issues with the radiant concrete slab and hardwood floor. Why did I not think of this years ago? 

Quote from: Crusarius on October 24, 2018, 01:02:37 PM
Thanks Ray. you just solved all my issues with the radiant concrete slab and hardwood floor. Why did I not think of this years ago?

Crusarius,
   I am wondering if a groove can be cut in the bottom of my boards, just like this guy did, and use a steel u-shaped track to sit each board on. Basically mimmick this guys design exactly, on a larger scale, with cheap and easily available materials. 

I would look at different aluminum extrusions way over steel. steel will rust. The other thing you need is some type of spring load to hold the board together and still allow expansion. 

An extrusion may be available off the shelf or not but if your looking at enough lineal foot I can't imagine it would cost to much to have some custom made. can always have plastic extrusions made to that should be cheaper than aluminum. I am just hoping aluminum extrusion will be available right off the shelf.

The other thing I was wondering is if the plastic held the board above the floor or if they machine the bottom of the board to keep it flat to the floor. I can see benefits to both ways. for my application I would want it tight to the floor for the radiant heat transfer.

Quote from: Crusarius on October 24, 2018, 02:59:05 PM
The other thing I was wondering is if the plastic held the board above the floor or if they machine the bottom of the board to keep it flat to the floor. I can see benefits to both ways. for my application I would want it tight to the floor for the radiant heat transfer.

There are plenty of plastic and alum extrusions available online. The problem is how it will function with the groove. This basically goes back to the T&G concept, that allows the whole floor to move without the cupping etc. I think in my case, with much larger boards, the sleepers and shiplap may suffice. The sleepers will move too...

I've got the truck and trailer hooked up. Got all my gear. Heading to get some logs after work today. My truck has been giving me fits, so towing with the wife's tahoe...anybody know how many pounds per cubic foot of ash? The trailer is rated for I think 5-6000 lbs. 16' car trailer. I don't want to overload it or the tahoe...


edit: here is a good source for densities:

Wood Species - Moisture Content and Weight (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/weigt-wood-d_821.html)

EDIT:
This one allows you to build your own schedule based on species and custom dimensions:
Timber and Lumber Calculators at WOODWEB (http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl)


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/ASH_SCHEDULE.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540467874)
 

Looks like a cool concept, but I'm not sold just yet. What happens when you get a twisting board? Or when the plastic gets brittle?
Load her til she squats, tis what I do😁

Quote from: Ruffgear on October 25, 2018, 07:45:52 AM
Looks like a cool concept, but I'm not sold just yet. What happens when you get a twisting board? Or when the plastic gets brittle?
Load her til she squats, tis what I do😁

Ruffgear, I am with ya. Mechanically its a good concept. The only bad thing I can think of is the plastic getting brittle with age and the cost!! Holy cow its triple what a typical floor costs from reading the comments section at the bottom of the youtube page. 
Replacing a warped board would be easy with this system. 

Plastic under the floor probably hold up just fine. its typically the UV from the sun that kills it. It may get brittle over time. But, how often are you planning on pulling it up and putting it back down.

The new technology in plastics makes them an extremely suitable replacement for alot of steel components. The two best places I can think of are fuel lines and brake lines. Would be great to finally have the two most important components on your car not rot out before the car does.

Check out the tool box on the left side of the forum.  All the calculators you need.

Very true. Plastics aren't what they used to be...they have improved greatly. 

I'm still not 100% on the final design, I considered splines, but I cannot replace a board in the middle of the floor with splines. 

Well...I can do this in 10' x 10' squares. I can build a frame that the floor boards sit inside of.....options just opened up...im going straight to the CAD!!!

Quote from: btulloh on October 25, 2018, 08:39:32 AM
Check out the tool box on the left side of the forum.  All the calculators you need.

Well....I'll be danged. Guess being a newbie I just hadn't seen that yet! Thanks!

Not having a tongue and groove I suspect fine dirt will get trapped between that new flooring at the joints.  Completely sealed or not the lack of a relief groove on the bottom with that wide of a board is going to add up to a problem in a floor system.  Neat idea, but then again so was the Pinto.  

Quote from: Southside logger on October 25, 2018, 09:06:54 AM
Not having a tongue and groove I suspect fine dirt will get trapped between that new flooring at the joints.  Completely sealed or not the lack of a relief groove on the bottom with that wide of a board is going to add up to a problem in a floor system.  Neat idea, but then again so was the Pinto.  

Are you talking about my design with the sleepers, or the one featured in the video with the plastic locking channels?
I am trying to design away from T&G or Splines because I want to be able to replace boards without having to take up large sections of the floor. 
I'm thinking of a modular designed floor now. I do 10' x 10' sections. Each section has an expansion area around the perimeter. I can do T&G or spline here. Worse case scenario I am only pulling up a 10' x 10' area. 

My comments were directed at the system in the video as I don't think dirt collecting between your boards would be a problem like it would be in a home.  I would still have concerns with wide lumber and no back relief in your proposal. 

Quote from: Southside logger on October 25, 2018, 09:53:16 AM
My comments were directed at the system in the video as I don't think dirt collecting between your boards would be a problem like it would be in a home.  I would still have concerns with wide lumber and no back relief in your proposal.

What is a back relief? Is that the grooves cut on the bottom of the boards? Do those reduce expansion?

What ya'll think of this concept? I am attempting to control for the expansion and contraction. If I can break up the movement and control it in many sections, instead of over the full length/width of the floor, would it be more manageable?


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/TG4.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540476104)
 

Something I just googled....makes sense. I should plan on doing this no matter what design I go with.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/stressrelief.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540476554)
 

Now I am really getting into the details. This article I found explains grain orientation. I always thought it was the opposite of what this picture shows. I thought the wood would cup upwards if the bark side (crown) was down. What they explain is the opposite. My dad and grandfather always taught me to put the crown up......

Someone please clear this up for me....



copyright picture removed

Personally, I think now you are just complicating things and making it harder than it needs to be. Picture framing wood is generally a bad idea. Put sleepers down use dry wood and go one direction. I agree with Southside back relief would be beneficial, it helps control cupping. Yes boards shrink more on bark side, however if you've ever built decks this is definitely not always true.
Quarter sawn and smaller width. Smaller width gives you smaller cracks but more of them.

Yes, I've built several decks and have always put the crown up. I have also noticed that the are boards that seem to defy the rule. 

Maybe you are right, I am over complicating it. 

I'm going to go get a big Ash load of Ash tonight. I hope they look like Ash. I hope they smell like Ash.  :D

Quote from: RAYGYVER on October 25, 2018, 10:22:48 AM
Now I am really getting into the details. This article I found explains grain orientation. I always thought it was the opposite of what this picture shows. I thought the wood would cup upwards if the bark side (crown) was down. What they explain is the opposite. My dad and grandfather always taught me to put the crown up......

Someone please clear this up for me....


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52092/bark_side_up_or_down.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1540477358)

I think you are getting your terminology confused.  The "crown" refers to the curvature of the wood--not the grain.  The example shown is correct.  You want the bark-side facing down (the grain "smile" facing up) as shown in the upper right.  As it dries, it will create a crown on the top (as shown in the lower right).  Therefore, the crown is on top just as your grandfather said.

The cupping blurb is correct. However in a situation where one side is damp and the other face is dry, the wet face grows and becomes the convex side. As a carpenter when I walk into a house one of the first things I take note of is, are the floorboards cupped up, is it damp below. You are damp below, do everything to lessen that. Cracked foam isn't a moisture barrier, plastic under it, but not a swimming pool. Relief groove, back paint the flooring. Square edge boards on closely spaced sleepers, face screw the floorboards down and pull up a board when it gets torn up, KISS concept, its a shop, stuff happens.

 On the cupping. Tangent to the rings, wood shrinks about twice as much as it does radially, from heart to bark. Now look at the end of a log and think about slicing boards out. A flatsawn board, a quartersawn one, what happens? Which faces shrink more? Look at the end grain of a stick of dry firewood, the checks are radial, the tangential grain shrank twice as much as the radial, in a big timber or log it can't cup, those same stresses build up until it is greater than the strength of the wood in tension perpendicular to the grain and pop, a check relieves the stress. That was drying stress 101 for a new sawmiller, pay real attention to thinking about the log and the wood it will become. Growth stress is your bowing, Magicman has made good posts on that.

On the cupping .Before I had 800 square feet  of porcelain tile installed one large room had  Bruce fire side rustic planking with hob hails solid oak .Nice but moisture around certain areas like kitchen sink caused a lot of warping and cupping over the years .About a year later I had another 800 square feet of carpet replaced with hardwood .This was solid laminated hickory suggested by the flooring contractor instead of  solid planking just to eliminate the warping problem .I've had no problem with it . 

Thanks for all the advice fellas. Just a couple weeks ago I wasn't sure what the difference was in flat/quartersawn wood. I've been reading up and I totally understand it. I for sure need to quartersaw these logs to get the best performing floor boards. 

As far as the design goes, the KISS method is a rule I try to follow here at work. We design such complicated things I didn't realize I was letting the floor design get too complicated. Do you guys really think I can get away with just a simple square edge, no T&G or Splines or Shiplap, as long as I have closely spaced sleepers?

Well, I'll report on the Ash load of Ash I got last night. This guy has 8 acres full of 60'+ ash trees. 12" diameter and up to the biggest was probably 20"-23". I was eyeballing that one. He said they are all mine. All I have to do is come help him cut em down and haul em off. So, I've got plenty of material to work with, and now the logistical issue is space to dry. I was going to let everything dry in the barn....but I have a feeling I will be busting at the seams by the time I process all this Ash. I need to go read up on drying Ash in the drying forum I guess....if yall have any links to some of the better threads do share.

I think the first thing I will be making is a better platform for the mill....bring on the pea gravel and some big Ash logs...