I was using my 440b today and when I was putting it in low it would just start to grind. I still had reverse but i was moving the skidder around trying to see if it was in a bind then finally the lever wouldnt come down past the neutral position. Long story short now it just moves the shift lever on the side of the transmission but theres nothing there in any of the gears. The high side never did work since I got it. This is a 73 model 440b with the standard transmission. Is it possible to repair it in the woods by taking the top cover off. Its sitting a mile or so back in the woods and I have no way to get it out. I was hoping I could pull the floor boards out and repair it that way.
So is this the 8 speed, 4 with hi-lo? Not much you can do from the top.
I dont know skidders but i know gearboxes. This a plain ol manual tranny? Does it have a top cover and manual shifter?
If so pull floorboard and pull top cover from trans.. Not the shifter ball socket base but the whole lid with shifter pivot intact. The forks are on rails within underside of the cover and youll be lifting them out of the sliding clutch grooves. You need to figure out which forks are which, so prop the shifter up and see which movement you need and what fork goes where, then manually get the sliding clutch engaged to the gear you need.
ALL OTHER CLUTCHES MUST STAY IN NEUTRAL.. You can only engage ONE at a time. Reverse can be the biggest pain as you have to slide an idler gear of some sort. Anyway check your forks for bent broken or really deep worn fingers where they ride in the sliding clutch. Maybe it can be bent back or built up with weld etc. You might have really ground up teeth on the gear ID and sliding clutch end which requires full teardown and some new innards.
This is a road ranger but its all pretty similar in any unsynchronized gearbox
The right hand gear is locked to the shaft by the sliding clutch. Centering it gives neutral. These are new.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/20160817_164942.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541357557)
These are pretty tired. If theyre mushroomed over you cant engage anymore for lack of clearance.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/20160107_131237.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541357586)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/20160115_144109.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541357505)
Quote from: tacks Y on November 21, 2018, 08:05:14 PM
So is this the 8 speed, 4 with hi-lo? Not much you can do from the top.
Yes sir. Its 4 speeds with low all the way up then idk because high has never worked. Reverse is the all way back or down. Two separate shifters. How much does the tyranny weigh. Is it something I could do by hand in the woods.
Quote from: mike_belben on November 21, 2018, 08:16:53 PM
I dont know skidders but i know gearboxes. This a plain ol manual tranny? Does it have a top cover and manual shifter?
If so pull floorboard and pull top cover from trans.. Not the shifter ball socket base but the whole lid with shifter pivot intact. The forks are on rails within underside of the cover and youll be lifting them out of the sliding clutch grooves. You need to figure out which forks are which, so prop the shifter up and see which movement you need and what fork goes where, then manually get the sliding clutch engaged to the gear you need.
ALL OTHER CLUTCHES MUST STAY IN NEUTRAL.. You can only engage ONE at a time. Reverse can be the biggest pain as you have to slide an idler gear of some sort. Anyway check your forks for bent broken or really deep worn fingers where they ride in the sliding clutch. Maybe it can be bent back or built up with weld etc. You might have really ground up teeth on the gear ID and sliding clutch end which requires full teardown and some new innards.
This is a road ranger but its all pretty similar in any unsynchronized gearbox
The right hand gear is locked to the shaft by the sliding clutch. Centering it gives neutral. These are new.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/20160817_164942.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541357557)
These are pretty tired. If theyre mushroomed over you cant engage anymore for lack of clearance.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/20160107_131237.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541357586)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/20160115_144109.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1541357505)
It's not like a regular manual. It has a top cover but no shifter on the top. There are two rods that come down along the right side and move a lever that engages the forks. I've been into quite a few automotive trannys from the top and repaired things but I've never had this one or any any like it apart.
Sorry, dont know a thing about that setup. 2 separate shifters and a high/low probably means the front is a main box and behind it is an auxilliary box or a range gear.. High and low on the back half and 1-4 +R up front. If you could never get into high and now cant shift into low it suggests your fork or gear issue is in the aux section. If the shifter for the main 4 gears feels normal and or the range lever feels odd then irs even more so pointing to that.
Will it go into any gear at all? What about shutting it off and putting in gear?
The gears and there shifters are on a separate shaft and forks. They all work fine. Low high neutral and reverse are on a separate shaft with there own forks. Turning it off and putting it in gear makes no difference. Going by the book it shows a lever on the outside that goes to a shaft inside the transmission that has a nut that holds a cam on which moves the shift forks if I reach down and grab the lever on the side of the transmission it just moves freely. There is a spring and a ball which I believe are suppose to hold the shift cam in that position like a detent I ordered a new manual because the one I go with the skidder has a lot of the transmission repair missing. I did read in the book where it says remove top cover then remove shifters but it tells you to pull the transmission first. I'm not sure if the shaft will hit on the frame rail before coming all the way out or not I was hoping somebody has done it before.
I don't know what is wrong but here is some input.
I would guess that transmission weighs at least 500 pounds.
I would not try to take it out in the woods because it's a tough job under good conditions and you will have to make some tools with a torch and welder.
Taking the top cover off and trying to put it in gear manually may be an option that would get it home.
I believe Snowstorm is the best 440b mechanic on the forum. If he chimes in, I would follow his instructions to the letter.
If you do take the transmission out, put some earmuffs on the dog or you may offend his sensitive ears. ;D
if the syncros are worn out that could be your problem. its been a long time and i dont remember all of it. some of it can be gotten from the top. taking the whole thing out is a big job. the winch shaft runs over the top of the trans so that will need to come out
I'll let you guys know what I find. I'm going to load up the four wheeler with tools and head back and pull the top cover. And see what I can see. I got a buddy with a big 4x4 john deere coming later to pull it back to the garage.
If it is the syncros, then the transmission does have to come out or at least back far enough to get the front bearing out of the case. All the syncros are on the top shaft.
I got the cover off and the selector cam is broke in half. I got the big piece of and I got the nut broke loose but can't seem to get the rest of the selector cam off the shaft to pull the shaft out the side. I'm not seeing any real reason why I didnt have high gear in it either.
I can't help you with the broken selector but I would bet dollars to donuts that the reason it won't go into high is because the syncro pack for high is worn. That was pretty common on them once they got a little older. I think it takes a micrometer to tell the difference between brand new and wore out.
It was grinding when I tried to put it in low before it quit. I'm curious to know if this part was already cracked and I just finished it off or by pulling on the lever I broke it. When I try to shift into high, it was like there was not a gear there. No grinding etc. But like I mentioned earlier high never worked in it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35669/20181122_154849.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1542924660)
Can anybody tell me which way the shifter rail shaft comes out. I hope it's out the back and I could repair it in the skidder. If my problem is in the syncros hopefully i can slide it back enough to get to the bearing race and pull that shaft. Maybe somebody has a copy of the entire synchro range transmission manual. Mine is missing a bunch. I got a new one ordered but I'd like to get the parts on the way tomorrow
I have a manual, send me your email and I can forward some pages to you.
Bob beat me to it, I also have a parts book if that helps.
My manual doesn't show it but if I remember correctly, those shafts go out the front. >:(
I had a 440 a with the synchro range trans. Had one lever and two rods same as the 4020 tractor. Mine would grind and squeal trying to go into gear. I pulled the top apart and the forks were worn enough it wouldn't go in. Welded them up and worked great. Not saying that's your problem but check it all out while your into it. Also the pump should be in the bottom. Make sure there's no metal in that also.
Does the range gear have a tapered seat on the inner shoulder where a friction ring scrubs it to match speeds before a shift? Thats whats in a road ranger aux and they do wear out.
With a lot of preheat and post heat one could weld it back up with soft wire and bring it back to spec with a lathe and toolpost grinder if a new gear isnt obtainable.
I tried to order parts today from a certain place and there push was for a new transmission or the whole top shaft. Wanted to charge me 25 to talk to the guy about it even after I was going to order 200 worth of parts not counting anything else I needed. I just hung up the phone. If this is what were coming to as a country I'll roll it over the hill on fire.
I know you're a ways from them, but try calling Brian at PB&H Equipment in Antrim, NH 603-588-3005. They seem to know Deere skidders well, and have been a lot of help to me.
If you haven't found this yet, here's a link to John Deere parts catalog page:
https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/
Enter your model number and you'll get a menu to follow to find the area of the machine you need to look at. This address is new, but if you have a link to the old parts books, that will still work for a while. Did I say I hate changes?
Have your serial number in front of you, some of these parts have a serial number break involved. Also some components like the tranny or axles may even have a component serial number that you might need. It's good to have these numbers written down, anyway. Your operator's manual will show you where the numbers are located.
I'm up in the woods messing with it again. How much play should be on the shift fork. I got a bout a 1/4 inch. If I take a pry bar and hold it in high it will attempt to move but I can't hold it and it will pop out. I still can't get it to go in low. I noticed some discolaration on the hub next to the high gear. I also could see it smoking some as I was trying to run it. For some reason I have lost all hydraulic function on it now. But the clutch is still engaging and disengaging as it should.
that sound like to much play. there is a pump in the bottom that feeds the piston pump. if the clutch in pressed to long you will loose oil to the piston pump or the diff lock engaged
I believe if I rebuild all these clutches in here and fix what I broke. Maybe it will take care of it. I guess I'm going to have to slide it back in the woods. I hope the shift fork rod will slide forward enough to remove the fork. I still can't figure out why the hydraulics aren't working. I notice the detent ball and retainer are missing for the high low shifter cam. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35669/20181123_133944.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1543011443)
take the filter off an look it over. there is also a screen
Where do you get to the screen at from the inside.
The pickup screen is behind a triangle shaped cover on the right rear of the transmission at the very bottom. The charge pump is on the back of the top shaft that you are working on, if you have been running it a lot with the clutch down trying to solve your problem it may have lost its prime. Letting the engine idle for a minute or two with the clutch out may solve it. Going on memory here but I think that pump also lubricates the transmission and if all is well you should see oil pumping out around the syncros when the engine is idling.
To bad about the parts supplier, but they are not the only ones that can find those parts. The syncro shift was widely used. Some parts may be interchangable from 3020 and 4020 tractors. I SEEM to recall that the case has to be split to remove those rods. The way I have dealt with similar transmission removals is to use a chain come along attached to a chain wrapped around the cab , then components can be moved to the edge and then to ground or Atv trailer with a woods made jib anchored to the cab.
My goal is to slide it as far back as I can and support it. Hopefully it will give enough room to slide the fork rods far enough forward to get the upper shaft out and I'll do all the repair in the woods. I have no other choice. I'm going to order all the parts tomorrow to rebuild the syncronizer set up after reading the book several times them clutch packs are what makes it go. With the discoloration on the high side it tells me its metal to metal. It did try to move when I held it in high for a second or two. It's the only thing I can come up with. I'm with you guys now on the charge pump. Maybe it did lose its prime since that shaft is not turning and has not been turning for quite a while.
Sorry to hear of all your trouble. I may have that part that broke, can look. Computer trouble here so I have not been checking in here. I think you need to tow out of woods, there is not much room to work in there. I may have some gears but tranny I have is a part. This is a pain on a I pad, sorry. You can email me at tacks5@verizon.net
Kiko makes a good point. Most of the powertrain in a 440b is the same as (I think) a 3020.
4010 and 4020 also. I went over and looked at my buddies 4010 tractor and service manual. Same setup part numbers etc. You guys are great.
Sorry not good with parts. I do have the broken part in your picture, still in tranny. The top shaft and gears are all gone. I forgot what sold over the last year, and what would work went in the 440c. I would drag from woods and pull engine if I was working on it. That top shaft comes out the front. The other gears are in it and look good.