The Forestry Forum

Fellows, I will have an amount of thinning to do in my larch plantation within next 5 years.  Actually, I need to do a non-commercial thinning before that, but that is another topic.

At any rate, given the size of stems I will be cutting, mostly in the 12" to 16" diameter at the base range, and all softwoods initially.....I think I can get away with moving the cut material with a good ATV/UTV and one of these forestry trailers w/winch.  I would not have thought this doable until I hit YouTube and watched roughly 100 videos of folks doing logging that is roughly on the same scale as what I might be doing....and these combos appeared to work well, maybe even better than tractor rigs.  Much narrower, more maneuverability. plenty of power for loads I saw toted....and even some ability in snow.  Very surprising.

For example, if you access the "Swedish Homestead" group of videos, the guys from Germany that moved to Sweden to log and saw with a Wood-Miser..They use just such a rig and are sawing some fairly large spruce.  Well-within any weight I'd need to haul from one end of my property to another.

What am I missing?  This equip. is, of course, much lighter than "real" forestry stuff, yet there are all those videos of guys succeeding.....or seeming to succeed, with these units.

Note...I'm not looking for a firewood hauler, although it may get used for that now and then, but a unit with log bunks.  DR makes one, Woodland Mills makes one...I'm sure there are more.  Are these things useful?  Sure look it.

Thanks
tom

The problem is there is no real saleable material generated in the pre commercial thinning operation in america for the most part, europe seems to pay for crazy high tech machines by harvesting cigarette packs of wood somehow..   Anyway all these fabricated atv grapple systems have a very real pricetag.  You can buy an old skidder AND junky knuckleboom for what some of these quads + powerpack + grapple trailer cost.   And we know they arent suited for the commercial end of a harvest so basically they cost an input fortune and generate an output trickle in our country.  Business wise thats a terrible model.

In my opinion they are for folks who have excess capital and need a retirement hobby or really need a deductible toy.  Im speaking of the financial picture of buying a manufactured unit only,.  Not of doing critical TSI or of building equipment for it.  I am 1000% behind you there. 


A quad can pull wood.  An old garden tractor or compact ag tractor can be made to pull wood better than a quad and not split in two from fatige at the puny 1/8" frame welds or crack a paperweight aluminum case or smoke that baby clutch.  A small articulated trencher is plate steel and dana 30 or bigger truck axles, usually with hydraulic motor into cast iron gearbox drive.  it can be made to pull wood better than either of those and the weight balance is already designed right.  They are meant to pull a very heavy cable plow through tight spaces and a boatload of tractive power/weight.  They all fit on the same sized trail and trailer. They all can be bought cheap, repaired and built into purpose machines. Your level of fabrication capacity really kinda decides what you end up doing, if you dont have the money to just plop down or if you dont habe any desire to consider the financial end of it.  Thats sounds silly but theres no shortage of harleys and vettes a ski boats to prove my point.  Not everyone cares about the money so without knowing your financial portion its hard to tailor a response to auit you perfectly.  


I have seen all the vids of new hobby homestead machines pulling wood out and ive done my share too.   We see the quad vids when theyre new, not when theyve got 6000 hours.  The duty cycle at max load continually goes up when you go from quad to mini tractor to trencher.  

This softwood you will be dragging out, what will you do with it and whats the shortest length it can be? How physically fit are you?  Ive built a number of contraptions for this stuff on a mostly zero dollar budget that actually works, but will wait for that info before saying any more.

Thanks Mike.  So "hobby" and "retirement" are two important words in your reply above.  And more generally, I would get better traction here with my questions if I was sure to spell out....this is not my main income source.  These are indeed "retirement toys" albeit with a fairly serious purpose, that of extracting and culling runts and weaklings from a very dynamic plantation....and attempting to, among other things, make prototype products that could be used in home shows, etc......things like weather-fast wood bevel siding, interior paneling featuring figured grain, flooring, etc.  Mostly small-dimension stuff from smaller logs that are being culled from main "crop" or legacy trees in stand.

But at this farm, there would be use for any trailer that could haul rocks, dirt, sawdust, woodchips, etc.   So those combo trailers with the metal boxes make sense for this use as well.

Gotta run but will check back later.

Thanks,
tom

Thats totally fine and dont take it as me condemning in any way.  People habe the right to do whatever they want with their time and money.  Knowing the goal makes it possible to give bettter advice.  You dont tell a guy to buy a pipeline welder for his art deco passion, or a 110 flux core for starting his pipeliner career.  Need to know the purpose and duty cycle and budget to pick the tool.


So part 2, whats your level of fabrication willingness and ability?

2A, whats the forest material length x dia and your ability for physical labor? Can you lug an end up on occasion or must it be 100% joystick work?  Can there be skidding or only forwarding?  How is the terrain?

3.  Whats the budget

I cant say whats right or wrong for you but i can tell ya what ive tried and what didnt work, which is hopefully useful in your endeavor.

I'd rather purchase these toys, then modify as need arises.  My physical condition is, well....let me tell you what my doctor said when I asked her a...'where do I rank for a 62-year-old man'... kind of question...she replied "95% or better"....so yeah, I'm in shape.  I routinely lift heavy objects over my head repeatedly just for the exercise!  I walk faster than anyone I know.

Logs will be larch, so not actually so light a wood.  Much denser than their pine-family status might suggest.  I'd like to be able to lift, or I should say, place on the trailer, logs of up to 20" butt diameter or thereabouts, with an absolute maximum length of 20'.  These dimensions are way to the big side of what I will typically need to be moving, at least within the foreseeable time frame.  More typically, logs of perhaps 14" butt diameter and maybe 12' length.  In many cases, even shorter/smaller.

I ran a Prentice log loader in an earlier life.  That thing had capacity, but when a 70"-diameter silver maple stub was just a bit too heavy to lift, I would drag one end up onto bed, then get better purchase with more hydraulic oomph, and get big log up on bed.  On a much smaller scale, I could do similar with one of these trailers.  Again, I'm a strong guy.

I'd love a unit with knuckle boom but I'm not made out of money, for what is after all, a serious hobby.  So I seek info only on the winch units.  And I think I would like the accessory of a remote winch control and power off the ATV/UTV to run that winch...whatever it ends up being.

Thanks,
tom

Are we talking tree length skidding with straight rows or dashing in and out to get a cull?

You'd be better off in my mind to use a skid steer to carry it out if it's 8 foot wood. I cant see an atv holding together at all over any amount of time.

A 20" 20' larch is getting to be a pretty serious stick for the hobby category. Even though I work on a commercial cut to length crew, I have a soft spot for small scale equipment. Personally (I've never used any of this stuff so take it fwiw) I think any trailer and crane you can pull behind an atv is going to be lacking for moving the size wood you're speaking of. I think an atv arch would be a better option. That way you're not having to lift and load the logs, just back the arch over and hook up a set of tongs. The arch won't have as much of a tendency to push the quad around, either.

20" x 20ft a quad will not touch IMO.. Maybe once or twice before you hear the metallic snap and the sauce leaks out.  Those few big logs will have to go on an arch and it may require a roller skate under the other end too if the terrain is bad enough.  ATVs are too light no matter how much HP to hook into that kinda weight skidding. Theyll spin in place or stand up and flip, or slip the clutch or worse, shatter something.

These illustrate what a quad can do.  No front ballast, wet clay, bad rubber.  Barely able to do 8ft of 16" red oak.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0415181748.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1523849232)

Front ballasted, dry flat ground. pretty much max i can skid. Wet white oak.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0612181930.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1528860333)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0612181934.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1528860176)

These next two pics are culled firewood oaks i skidded out of my back lot individually because of the hill,  8 to maybe 15ft or so.. Then cut to 6 or 8 and loaded ALL of them on the trailer and hauled off without issue.  Wheels are really something!

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0527180844-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1528860269)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0527180847-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1528860229)

With a trailer having the axle way back there is sufficient tongue weight, [and must also be sufficient front ballast] for my little 300cc kingquad to move about a facecord at a time this way as long as its not too long or steep of a climb.  Aircooled will overheat.  If the axle was centered, a long log would lift the back of the quad off the ground and lose braking/traction.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/0524181958.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1528909892)
 

Old iron compact tractors would skid that big stick size you describe without too much issue and actually survive it over and over. Pretty confident my 17hp kubota L175 2wd would skid it and im sure it wouldnt even notice on a arch or trailer.  Its only 4ft wide and theyre pretty cheap.  Drawbar power wise its like 5 or 6 of my kingquads if not more.  Theyre incomparable.  Same sized trail.. kubota would take 4 of those sticks per trip. Quad only 1.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/91AC3909-A2C6-4AC4-BCA8-F06058C59855-94-0000000E0D99C8D3_zps1b7eaf99.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512239456)

And to briefly touch on garden tractors, this pic maxxed out my deere 140 sled puller toy. Its 2 sticks of 16" pine, a 10' and a 12'.  Bota would not care.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/20150711_190441~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512239765)



The issue with a trailer that holds 20fters is it doesnt get thru tiny trails anymore, so again id plan to skid or arch those, or cut them shorter as much as possible.

Manageable sized cull stuff loads onto a trailer pretty quick by hand.  A DC winch on a boom with tongs seems to be the cheapest and fastest mechanical loading assist but you must have some sort of outrigger stabilizers.  You probably saw the homesteader on youtube who forgot to put his outrigger down and bent the snot out of the whole trailer. A round main tube will resist that form of torsion loading far better than a square one given same size tube.   Biggest downsize to lots of winching is that the quad stator will be taxed hard and could burn up.   I would insist on hooking up a full sized deep cycle trolling motor battery in parallel with your quad system so that the voltage drop isnt too severe on the quad.  The deep cycle batteries will survive deep discharge that conventionals will not.

The atv grapple trailers look cool on youtube but how much of the quads payload is consumed by the grapple, outriggers and engine?  If you go that route, the pump unit really should be on the front of the quad for wheelie ballast.  

Keep in mind, when you wheelie with a trailer and grapple behind you on a quad, you get pinned into the grapple joysticks and gored pretty badly.  When really heavy, i throw a knee over the seat and avoid sitting in it.  Ballast is why i built that huge rack.   There was no steering before i did that.

Tom, Not sure what kind of terrain your are working on, that can make a big difference. I too wanted to have a trailer like the one you seek, but cost really slowed me down. I came to learn that just pulling a few sticks at a time worked just fine and went quick. Dragging is a bear of rough on the gear, an arch to get the nose off the ground makes a world of difference, and for really big sticks, a skate under the rear will make that go well (see @nybhh (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=38169) gallery for a photo of one he made). On hilly terrain, you must consider braking and control also as you don't want the hitch or trailer to try to pass you. This little setup shown here handles everything I need so far and I have skidded red oak up to 22" x 16' without much issue. After doing this for a year or more, I think loading a trailer would take too much time for me and not add a lot of benefit. But that is for my situation, not yours.
Good Luck,
Tom

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/52103/DSCF1564.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1550578655)
 

 I started with this equipment to do TSI work.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10257/the_power_sourse.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1515775188)
 

 And this is what I use now for work in my maple orchard.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10257/IM000436~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1550581020)
 

 Over the yrs I tried two 4x4 wheelers then a 33hp compact with the compact I changed to the trailer in this pict. I also had to rework the loader from trying to lift 20" 8' pine logs.
 In the u-tube videos most of the logging is 8' logs around 6"to 10" dib. I did a red pine thinning and lost $$$. When I had the 33hp tractor. The trailer is now modified to take 10' logs. 12' logs if you put some 8' on top. Any thing longer the trailer comes off and dragged with the winch.

I use a LOGRITE log arch behind my 4 wheeler.  Works great and easy to get around with. Keeps the wood off the ground so it is clean.  Look at their add.

                  davep

Most helpful fellows.  So here's what  I'm thinking, after reading your replies;  First, that 20-ft. larch log was only intended to outline the furthest limits of what I might be doing in say, the next 5-8 years in my plantation area.  Much more often, it will be smaller stuff needing to be hauled.

There will be "dashing in and out" to paraphrase Skeans 1, as well as taking out whole rows.

I'm in a marvelously hilly area-the glaciers really humped and dumped odd hills all over that country...but my terrain is fairly level.  Additionally, where this plantation area sits is high and well-drained.

I'm thinking, the combination of one of these trailers w/winch...I still like the idea...and then, a log arch for bigger stuff, as time progresses (our stock is rapidly growing-I am going to be harvesting timber that was-at its oldest-first planted in 2008!).  There will be white pine coming along shortly after the larch.  2nd-fastest grower in my plantation area.

I'd love a tractor/trailer w/boom combo, but I have a building to build ($$$), power to get installed, (more $$$), well to dig, (mad $$$) and a septic system...all in roughly the same time-frame.

Then, later, I can start to shop for a bandsaw mill!  If I can get by a little cheaper on the log-hauling stuff, it will be beneficial to the overall cause.  Plus, with the UTV/trailer, I can haul lots of other stuff, a task I always seem to need to be doing.

Thanks for reading.
tom

PS...how about this?...a bigger UTV-not ATV...hooked up to the beefiest "forestry trailer w/winch" I can find?  I'd rather have a UTV again...we used to have a Polaris....and with this combo, I would still be under the $$$ I'd spend on tractor with necessary attachments.  Tractors are dear these days.  Then again, so are side by sides!  I'm not a rich man, but I did take the trouble to save some funds for post-retirement needs.  Delayed gratification, I think it's called!

I definitely will put the atv at the bottom of choice list.  

Outside of the logging is your other life.  Whether its a tractor for bush hogging or a sxs for hunting and fetching the mail, is up to you.  Either machine has better HP and ground weight than a quad.  The tractor is obviously cast iron, exponentially more rugged and able to be the hydraulic source as well as a grapple/bucket loader in itself that a sxs will never be.. But that is all up to you.   You can get into a good older tractor or sxs probably starting in the 4k+ range if you are prudent and handy.  

Beware, a sxs is a belt convertor direct drive.  Any decent ag tractor has a planetary rear end with a high low.  I cant speak for the new hybrid mini tractors with hydrostatic drives like kubota bx25.  Not sure how rugged they are long term.  


Ed_k.. I am curious with your first setup, would the quad pull the trailer with wood flush up to the bunks?  What was the price on the loader if you dont mind me asking? And am i eyes deceiving me or is there a hose around the tree and wood block risers on the loader feet?

It's more than the wood you are describing, having a trailer to haul rock, dirt etc.
After 40 yrs of that kind of life I can't tell you how much I wished I had bought a 4wd tractor earlier.  I have a D2 dozer that I rarely use.  A mid sized tractor (40-50hp) with a FEL and a set of forks will help you move logs and lumber.  I thinned a 1/2 acre a few years ago.  Cut it all 8' and hauled it out cross ways with the FEL. 
The total package of grading roads, lifting and moving dirt, gravel, logs, lumber, brush(forks make an ok brush rake) fits a wheel tractor imho.  I have never owner a 4wheeler but know people who do - and they also swear by tractors for the same kind of work you are describing.  My 2 cents.

I have used a 2014 polaris ace for a cleanup project and butt pile management on a 40 acre commercial hardwood thinning (I went in after the loggers left and cleaned up the tops for usable firewood). The issue with ATVs/UTVs is the rated tow capacity of around 2000 lbs. So even though the winch trailers can handle a bit more weight, the tow unit will be maxed out. I have broken the axle 3 times on a trailer rated for 1500 lbs simply by overloading it and trying to get that last chunk on there. Factory tow hitch is also failing. Have to avoind trying to get that last peice, which is eacy to say and much harder to do with darkness and rain moving in...Other than that, the ace has held up remarkably well with only a couple of CV boots torn in rough terrain. It has a clutch-belt transmission and I have not changed the belt. I also have hauled many cord of 20-24" oak with a logrite arch and the ace but now use a compact tractor and Iglund logging winch which by far the best combination- and a forwarding trailer would even be better.  

W

 Mike, the yamaha big bear pulled the trailer ok with 4' wood stacked up over the bunks in the middle, but I had to be real careful coming down a 20° hill. get to a 45° an your going for a ride ;D.
The loader came from Bailey's I think I paid $4500. it's a JMS 900.
The hoses go to an American 4' wood splitter chained to the pine tree.
The loader legs where to short to reach the ground mounted to an old boat trailer. So I tried the wood blocks but ended up welding extra metal to the bottom of the legs.
Oh the first 4x4 wheeler was a 200cc and I over heated one to many time till it quit running. burned up the $100. coil. so I traded for the 350 big bear.

Thanks for replying ed.  Youre saying the wood is cut in 4ft lengths and rounded up over the bolsters right? How many rows of wood?  I cant quite tell how much longer the trailer is past the pic.  


I will be building another trailer for the kubota,  pretty similar to yours when i get my junk all moved down here eventually.  Im wearing my joints out heaving stuff on manually. 

Could that quad pull said load uphill at all or only flatland and down? Liquid cooling is a must for a tow machine IMO. Kingquads biggest downfall.

Hi Tom,

I know nothing about ATV's, but I did years of commercial thinning of softwood stands with a horse, so I thought I'd add my two cents. 

The horse was ideal for precision thinning, as I imagine the ATV would be, but there were drawbacks. On long skids pulling one log at a time is extremely inefficient, and trying to pile logs in the yard with a rope and pulley is even more so.

What worked best for me was hot yarding bunches of logs along or near trails, forwarding with a 4wd tractor with winch, and piling the wood with the same tractor (after bolting on forks) 

I have hand-loaded logs on scoots and woods trailers and found it to be dangerous and time-consuming. I would also suggest you look into what you can and can't do with your larch. The larch here in NH  is of very limited use.

Anyway, I wish you the best on your project. Very few things in life match a good day in the woods.

Thanks Rick.  We've got guys here in WI that do horse logging.  Some real good shows I think.  And I also agree-the basic size/width of a UTV is in the ballpark for tight working spaces like I will have.  Then later in the process, there may be "real" logging equipment on my site, when we go to take out every other row.  But that's not what this is primarily all about nor where we're at today.

The larch we're growing looks like stuff in this website:  larchresearch.com.  Fantastic stuff, it lacks only a grade stamp.  That won't be an issue for stuff I use myself-it's fully-functional timber-and generally, the stuff is of high quality, usable for many applications.  I've seen a number of references right here on this board that make me think that perhaps New England larch is inferior to what we're able to grow.  That is speculation on my part, based only on the words of others here.  I have no particular reason to think that would otherwise be the case.  Many years ago, when travelling thru Maine, I saw healthy tamaracks growing on mountainsides. 

 There is a situation with larch however where it's Catch-22:  Will mills modify their equipment to saw a species when a steady supply of that species cannot be guaranteed to be delivered to the mill?  And will a landowner plant a bunch of something for which markets have yet to be developed?  It is not at all about the wood characteristics, so much as factors like these, that limit usability.  In Europe, there are large bridges built entirely of larch wood.  There are many buildings with larch siding and paneling, etc.  We will make deck boards, bevel siding, beams, and other items with ours.

Hybrid larch are, like many pine-family members, very long-lived trees.  We're talking multiple centuries.  Tamarack, by contrast, "only" lasts about 100 years.  Similar, but quite different in a number of ways.....eventually, very large-dimension stuff could be derived from these trees.  This is only somewhat a commercial venture.  When I first planted, there was no intent to ever harvest anything.  Now that I've seen that A)  Some of our blocks are planted a little too tightly, and B)  there's always thinnings and culling work that can be done, I've become interested in making partial harvests over a fairly long time span.....maybe eventually leading up to a Wood-Miser (or equivalent) bandsaw rig, to make a range of items we can use ourselves and potentially sell a bit.  But its' all good.....this is my retirement project and we always wanted to leave legacy trees....and will be doing so as a part of our management of that property.

Thanks again...
tom

You mentioned you were considering a DR or a Woodland Mills trailer. I assume the DR you are considering is their VersaTrailer. It's very similar in capability to the Woodland Mills T-Rex (2000# capacity, boom lifts 450#, dumps 650#). I seriously considered one of these to use behind my 33 HP compact tractor, but it's just too light-duty to make a good match. It would be a better match for a UTV. However, the trailer weighs about 700#, so factor that in to your UTV hauling calculations. Between the two, the Woodland Mills seems to be better quality. To me, the big drawback of these trailers is that while they can haul 2000#, they can only dump 650# - you might as well not even have a dump trailer. The 450# lift is rather limiting as well

The Woodland Mills Woodland ATV trailer can dump the full 2000#, but you lose the log lifting boom altogether (you can winch logs up into the back by using the tailgate as a ramp).

For me, if I were hauling with an ATV/UTV, I'd be using a log arch. It seems like the best match to an ATV/UTV's capabilities, and minimizes the loss of towing capacity eaten up by the equipment you are towing. I'd keep an old junk trailer around that I could load by hand if I were hauling a bunch of smaller logs or firewood.

If I wanted to haul more than a log at a time, I'd be looking at a compact tractor. A logging winch with a self releasing snatch block would let you pull trees out without having to drive right up to each one. Once you've pulled out a few logs, you could skid them out behind the winch.

A lower budget Method: get an old trailer and use one of a couple of inexpensive methods to load it: try a search here or on YouTube for Parbuckling (which normally uses an electric winch to roll logs onto a trailer from the side,), or see these threads on the DanG-Deadheader Log Lifter (which also operates with an electric winch):
     DanG-DeadHeader Log Lifter (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,17613.msg253404.html#msg253404)
     Moving Logs (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,6803.msg94732.html#msg94732)
Neither of these methods have the ability to snake logs out of the forest to your tractor like the logging winch does. Yes, you could pull with your electric winch, but those are incredibly slow, and have a limited reach and duty cycle.

When your demands or your budget permit, you could upgrade to the logging winch, or a forwarding trailer with a loader and perhaps a built-in winch (decent forwarding trailers are not cheap, and if you are pulling it with a tractor or trailer, you will rapidly outgrow the less expensive DR or Woodland Mills products).

How rot resistant is the larch?  I have a 
ATV a arch and a lt30 manual woodmizer and live about 35 miles from you. You could see what a arch will do and maybe we could do a bit of trading. that larch is hard and strong as that is what held up the hay mow of my fathers barn. 

I looked at a trailer with a knuckle boom loader, I ran across somewhere in alberta. The guy had been to an outdoor show somewhere and was headed back home when I ran across him. 

I do not remember the brand, but just looking at it I would bet money it came out of china.
Anyway it was designed to pull with an atv, and had a honda clone running the hydraulics,and the auxillary drive for the trailer axles, which was just a friction deal between the trailer wheels, that helped pull when needed and also held back on hills. 
The concept was neat, but it was built pretty light, and while it would be alright to get a few families firewood out, I did not think it had the capacity for any commercial activity, nor did I think it would hold up to the task of any commercial operation.

It seemed like he had 2 sizes, one priced at 8 grand, the other at 11, which coupled with the cost of a wheeler, puts a guy in the range to have something he could do some real work with.

I mean its not much different to compare forestry trailers to welders.  Duty cycle really dictates how many times you can run it up to max load before something lets out the smoke.  I finally got my quad able to move a worthy amount of wood to even bother with and its already starting to die from the abuse.  Duty cycle rating too low, wrong tool for my style of overloading things.  


The garden tractor had the weight and drawbar power, but not the front ballast, ground clearance or 4wd or diff lock. The quad had the 4wd, locks all 4 corners,  sufficient reduction gears and ground clearance.  I added in the front ballast but weight, drawbar power, structural durability and cooling are lacking.

They were both cheap and I can write it off as the expense of R&D. They have served well as an educational platform to build my diesel trencher into a commercial duty cycle TSI rig and get pretty close the first time.


11 grand? Jeez.   I can build tractor and loader trailer for 3.

To finish up my last thought.. Duty cycle is raised by adding mass.  In a welder its more iron, more copper.  Bigger lugs, bigger fasteners, etcs.  

In forestry and excavation equipment its more cubic inch, more iron, more gpm, more psi, more tire.   The deere 140 i pictured weighs around 1400lbs with me on it.  At the sled pulls with weights was up around 1800 lbs and i always won my class [at 16hp] but got murdered every time in the outlaw class.  Not necessarily by more hp.  Same engine and chassis size but guys with concrete and steel everywhere, 3500lbs and tires squashed so bad you couldnt see the rubber under the rim.  They could not spin a tire so they pulled or broke, only options.

In an ATV sized footprint, a commercial grade duty cycle power unit should weigh 3-4000lbs, generate atleast 6gpm at 2000psi+ and have 12 or more diesel HP and probably closer to 24 or 27 gas hp.  In my opinion.  Im not saying this exists, im saying look how short an atv falls from it. Tractors, trenchers and mini ex come closest out of the box.  A toro dingo would probably run a forestry trailer really well if you put a pintle hook on the plate and drove around backwards like a timbco 8x8

Excellent comments, fellows.  First, to trapper...larch is weather-fast, to the same degree as cedar.  This is one of its great qualities.  It weathers to a handsome gray if unstained/sealed.  Many buildings in Europe have larch siding.  And yes, most barns in Wisconsin have larch (tamarack in this case) rafters, beams, and such.  I suggest you and I keep in touch.  Over the next 5-year period or so, I will be working to ramp up what I have going on there and yes, you and I may have the opportunity to do some cooperative venture of one sort or another.  Thanks!

At the risk of not seeming to be getting the message, let me assure you all that I do get it...by the time you've spent money on these homeowner-class tools, you could have saved up for a real tractor, etc.  I do get that, and in fact, before I'm finished, I may swing back in that direction, this being a slow process.  And I'm in a farming/logging area.  That's all that goes on around there and there are numerous old skidders, etc. for sale right around me.  Tractors too, obviously.

But...there's always a "but"....I have other uses in mind for a UTV (not ATV, even though I mentioned them, I've never cared for quads).  But I'm going to start a new thread to more fully flesh out what I now consider a possible good way to go.  Please see my new "Best workhorse UTV" thread.

Thanks,
tom

I hope ive not come off as trying to tell you what to do Tom.  My aim is to simply share my trials in hopes that it may help others take the best road for themselves.

 I dont know sxs specifically enough to be much use but will follow along on your other thread.  Small scale hobby forestry is pretty satisfying over the years to see it unfold season by season and i hope you share pics of your endeavors.

You have been most helpful, Mike.  I always appreciate the good news...and the bad!  Brutal honesty is all I need.

And I agree...even these relatively small-scale operations are darn satisfying.  In my case, I'm more of a tree engineer-I planted all these trees that I will be sawing later-than a handyman with a welder.  I do hope to get a shop going up there soon though, and that will open up many more possibilities.  I can't fabricate much right now, but that should improve over time, when I get a shed put up at that location.  

Thanks for following along,
tom

For the same money but higher production, I'd recommend getting a small used iron mule type forwarder, older 4x4 tractor around 30 hp and small, and a 3point forestry winch and or log arch.

Run trails through the woods where the iron mule can get within a few hundred yards of most of the property.  Use small tractor and winch to get in where you can't take the mule and pull to the trails.  Use the mule to move wood to mill.  Wood stays mostly off the ground and clean with minimal ground impact/erosion.

You will burn a lot of time running back and forth with ATV loads.  Yes it's doable, technically, but already undersized and from what I hear you plan to grow the operation...  Replacing centrifugal clutches isn't cheap...

Good tractors are less than UTV's, just they may not be new.  They may not be available locally, but regionally, they can be found.

UTV's won't turn as sharp as a tractor.  If you just want a UTV, look at a Kubota.  They are slow, but strong as they build them on the tractor drivetrains rather than oversized ATV drivetrains.  Most other UTVs and all ATVs will fatigue long before a tractor will.  My little Kubota B1550 tractor will fit on a 4x8' trailer and then pull that trailer (with 2' sidewalls) mounded with firewood and turn on a dime with the trailer.  It's smaller than a UTV.  Cost me $1500 and some new filters.  Neighbors Kubota UTV and UTVs at work won't turn near as sharp just by themselves and cost a lot more.

Iron mule + UTV and arch etc. also wouldn't be a bad combo.  

Buy once cry once.

I cant disagree.  My L175 was $1300, is cheap and simple to work on, tough as nails, pulls like a little tank and i can weld whatever junk on it i want without reserve.   Cutting brakes allow it to helicopter around in place at the end of a row. A zero turn that doesnt slip into the pond youre mowing around. 

This is my latest TSI machine. It is a cross between a skidder and a forwarder.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19539/2nd_load-1040x780.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1538353426)


Articulated, 2wd, hydraulic winch, air cooled engine.

You can work anything in the woods, JUST PLAY SAFE! Watch for sticks coming your way.

Pretty neat rig there Puffergas.
A guy could do something like that with some of the old walk behind tractors, and I have seen them sell for near nothing at farm auctions, the last one I bought was an old allis, all iron, I think I gave 60 bucks for it and several implements, including a mower.

I do not remember the brand, but we had one when I was a kid that had steering clutches and brakes, it would be the berries for something like that on a small scale.

A guy could probably even fabricate a compensator on the trailer and some swivel bunks and have the trailer track in the same tracks as your power unit.
What are you using to load that thing with?

Pair of gravelys. 

Cool rig, Puffergas.  And on that score..even though I may seem hell-bent on purchasing something newish...once I get my building up there, I will have much more opportunity to scrounge, fabricate, go to farm auctions. etc...

It is going to make life easier, although it itself is a large project to get through.  Thinking pole building with "office" area framed in.  But yeah, old stuff abounds in my area.  It's all farming and logging up there-nothing else-so plenty of old stuff around.

tom

If something lives long enough to be kept until its old, it was probably pretty good to begin with.

Thinking about it, it would have to be a pair to rig it up with a compensator  so it would track, the bunk would have to be over the tires, so it would not tilt one way or the other. Then there would be no place for the driver

Somebody way up yonder...I think it was this thread...mentioned Polaris Brutus...and now that I've finally seen that rig, yes, exactly right-on for what I'd said.....diesel and hydrostatic.  Thanks.  that's another one for me to consider.  Probably a lot like Bobcat stuff I would think.  Same maker.  Same basic market.

tom

Thanks starmac and wisconsitom, my video skills need work but they might answer some of your questions.

Forwarder Skidder Crossover - YouTube (https://youtu.be/0_c8VHzQnnE)

Self Log Loading - YouTube (https://youtu.be/kJezzRr2PYE)

First arch loading test - YouTube (https://youtu.be/KgQMTqiSOuc)

Hoping to get back into it in the spring.

I like it, it looks like you put a lot of thought and work in it, but have something that works for you.

Fellows, now that I've done more research, I've come to the conclusion that Iron Baltic makes a very nice forestry trailer, their IB1000 unit.  This Estonian company appears to be attempting to make inroads into the N. American market.

Does anyone know more about Iron Baltic?  Dealers, etc.?

Thanks,
tom

PS...just looked and perhaps one simply orders direct.  Not inexpensive!

I had heard some good things about Iron Baltic several years ago. If I recall correctly, when I checked there were no US dealers, but there was one in Montreal (not far from me) I could have bought from.

Looking now, it seems the have a number of US dealers. Just glancing at a few dealer websites, most of them seem to be ATV and watersports dealers, so maybe they will not have what you want in stock. Still, it's worth checking. If you are not in a rush, they could probably get one on their next shipment. Probably worth checking a few dealers. Maybe you'll find one who will give you a deal if you offer to act as a reference for others shopping for similar equipment.

The specs seem very similar to the Woodland Mills T-Rex trailer (https://woodlandmills.com/atv-trailers/) (sold out of Canada, but they have some US warehouses - I believe one of them is in th eBuffalo, NY area. THey may have others). One difference I see is that IB offers the electric winch option, where with WM, you'd need to roll-your-own if you wanted to upgrade from the hand crank. Is there anything pushing you towards the IB vs the Woodland Mills? The T-Rex lists for $1599. What are you seeing for the IB unit?

I've seen both the Woodland Mills and the DR Power VersaTrailer in person. Of the two, the Woodland Mills product seemed to have superior construction (The DR was corroded right through the galvanizing just from sitting on the lot of the factory store, and had at least one awful-looking weld.) DR's price is $800 higher than a similarly-equipped Woodland Mills trailer. However, DR frequently offers sales which drop the price by $200. DR also offers free shipping, while Woodland Mills is $300 flat rate. Long story short: when you include shipping costs, you can save $300 and get a better trailer from Woodland Mills as compared to DR's sale-price on the VersaTrailer.

Not having seen Iron Baltic IB 1000 I can't comment on construction compared to the other two. Their online prices are higher, but maybe the construction justifies it? hard to say.

I will say that all of these seem like a decent match size & weight wise to pull behind a UTV. If you get a tractor, you can still use them, but most compact tractor's are capable of hauling much more.

Thanks John.  I agree-the Wodland Mills is likely the better N. American product, and price-wise, the IB unit may just be too sky-high.  I did a quick calc but got interrupted by another call....but I think the number, with crane and electric hoist (and grapple....must charge high $$ for that grapple!) add up to extremely high cost, maybe $4000 for the darn thing.  If you want the dump box...that's only another 2 grand!  Likewise for each attachment...that you would want to be efficient...not much of anything on that IB website for less than two thousand dollars!

Not in a hurry, so i'll find something at reasonable cost.  I do wish to end up with electric winch.  I used to direct lots of large limbs down with arborist's bullrope.  I got good at suspending a two-ton log on the end of that rope while swinging it into position in a pile with other hand.  I see guys doing similar on videos with electric winches with remote controls.  That's the kind of setup I want.  Something where I can really and truly work alone.

Thanks again.

tom

This is a fun video to watch. I learned something by watching it again.

Play it again Sam:
Time to collect firewood - YouTube (https://youtu.be/gxWUz1Qc51g)

Great stuff, Puffergas.  The guy has his system worked out.  What is the generic term for those tow-motors like is being used by this fellow?

I think I am going to be resigned to a manual winch setup or rigging up my own motor-driven setup.  That Iron Baltic stuff is way too high-priced. I did talk to rep who explained it is largely due to shipping from Estonia to N. America.

I wish this small-scale forestry revolution that is definitely taking place in Europe would spread more to N. America.  So much great equip. and tech available there....and largely not here.

tom

Quote from: wisconsitom on February 26, 2019, 09:31:48 AM
Great stuff, Puffergas.  The guy has his system worked out.  What is the generic term for those tow-motors like is being used by this fellow?

I think I am going to be resigned to a manual winch setup or rigging up my own motor-driven setup.  That Iron Baltic stuff is way too high-priced. I did talk to rep who explained it is largely due to shipping from Estonia to N. America.

I wish this small-scale forestry revolution that is definitely taking place in Europe would spread more to N. America.  So much great equip. and tech available there....and largely not here.

tom

I wish I knew the generic term for the tracked walk in front tow motors. Maybe somebody can help us out.
I liked the pulley-grab thing on the end of the cable! I never noticed that before. Good thing you started this topic.
Small scale TSI technology is my passion and I have no idea why there is no interest in this technology over on this side of the pond.

Quote from: wisconsitom on February 26, 2019, 09:31:48 AMGreat stuff, Puffergas. The guy has his system worked out. What is the generic term for those tow-motors like is being used by this fellow?

I've heard it referred to as an Iron Horse. I could swear I've seen an advertisement for one somewhere (I thought perhaps Northern Woodlands magazine, but there is nothing in the current issue.) I'm thinking maybe Jonsered used to make them?

Here's a video I found of one:
How to Use an Iron Horse - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeh-5nAAwI4)

And another with a tag-along trailer to carry the read end of the logs:
Ironhorse winching logs. Sustainable forestry. [url=http://www.blueberryhillsfarm.ca]Blueberry Hills Farm ? Self sustaining homestead ? gardens, pigs, chickens and bees. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k3MqzXofMY) - YouTube[/url]

Yep - Jonsered was at least one manufacturer of the Iron horse. I'm not sure what happened to it now that Jonsered is being rolled into Redmax. There is one for sale on eBAy in Michigan - buy-it-now price of $9500

Found a brochure:

I've only seen them things at a show.

Thanks guys.  Yup...iron horse is it.  Quite a nice system.  I'm still going to buy a UTV-darn it-for all the other reasons I want one of them....but good call showing us this method.

I very likely am going to end up with a Woodland Mills T-Rex trailer, to which I will likely add my own electric winch.  Without that along with the remote control, it really takes 2 people to load/unload many large, long, heavy objects safely and securely.  But with the electric and remote, one can direct a suspended item into place while dropping it into pile. Just like I used to do when roping large limbs out of trees we were removing and then swinging limb onto pile.

I too wish more of this small-scale logging/TSI would blossom here as in Europe, etc.  I actually think it will.  It just makes too much sense.  Talking to my sons, I said that failing that, let's say I wanted to do a little thinning on my property.....I'd have the same machine sitting there for my 18 acres as would the guy with 1800 acres to work!  It would be the same skidder, forwarder, etc....and would be out of scale with the job.  Meanwhile, this smaller, versatile, and handy equipment is right in scale with the work to be done at this stage.

When my pine, spruce and larch are full-grown trees....and if any get harvested.....any number of commercial loggers...thick as hair on a dog in my area.....will possibly get the job.  Everything I'm talking about here is for the years leading up to that event.

Thanks much.
tom

There seems to be a push for smaller-scale and "light-on-the-land" equipment in my area. There is a lot of interest on the part of private landowners to have that type of equipment used on their land (not necessarily UTV-scale, but mini-forwarders or tractors with forwarding trailers).

As long as they realize that it's not going to be as productive as the big stuff, so they may end up paying more to have that type of equipment used (the trade-off being less of an impact on their forest), there may be enough demand to cause more people in the profession to start considering that kind of equipment.

I know there are a lot of landowners in my area who would like small forwarding trailers and similar small-scale equipment for their own "do-it-yourself" work, but they just can justify the cost for what little they would use it. The Metavic M95 forwarding trailer I bought used costs far more than I could justify new. It's too small for commercial work, but too expensive for typical individual landowner use (for just a bit more, I could get a larger size that starts to interest someone in the business). I'd NEVER have bought one new - just too expensive. I really couldn't justify the used price either (like new condition, 60% of new price), but I'll make it work.

I've often wondered if some sort of landowner cooperative to own equipment as a group would make sense. The problem is that you've always got that one person in the group who is hard on equipment.

Quote from: wisconsitom on February 27, 2019, 08:50:50 AMWhen my pine, spruce and larch are full-grown trees....and if any get harvested.....any number of commercial loggers...thick as hair on a dog in my area.....will possibly get the job.

That makes a big difference in my earlier opinion.  I was more concerned you'd quickly outgrow the UTV.  Learning more, it makes sense.  


Small scale TSI equipment would be nice.  There needs to be a market for the material first though!  I'll mill small short stuff.  However, most of what I cut will be under 6" and bigger stuff rarely has a straight section longer than 6' or is often rotten.  LOW LOW grade.  

We have no pulp market in my area.  The only market for this stuff is firewood.  (Maybe some of it makes rustic furniture, but one can only go so far with that.)  Even then, 60-70% of what I cut isn't  saleable as no one will buy Elm as firewood.  So we burn Elm for our house and sell the better stuff.  ;D  Need to build a wood fired kiln...  ;)

I once took a look at small forwarders.  OMG!  Such cool stuff!  So utterly unaffordable!  I am learning, and agree much with comments above.  Specifically, how it is impossible to justify the real good stuff for small-scale ops.

I would simply LOVE one of these forwarding trailers with knuckleboom!  I greatly enjoy operating such loaders, having done so on a much larger scale (with huge, urban tree removals) for decades, atop the high seat on a Prentice loader.

But.....there's always a "but".....I am never going to be able to afford outright...or justify the necessary financing...that it would take to have the fancy stuff.  I am going to be a slow-poke, with slow equipment, doing slow, hopefully careful work.  My initial harvest in larch will be rot-free, straight-grained stuff.  But small.  I will always be leaving the biggest and best trees to keep growing.  We in fact intend legacy trees on that site.....stuff to grow as long as it can, all the while sheltering new recruits of varying species that are already present in my woods.  All the coniferous species we planted in the plantation area were matched for longevity.  Thus, we did not plant tamaracks, even though I love that tree.  It "only" has a lifespan of roughly 100 years.  The hybrid larch we did plant, meanwhile, has a lifespan measured in multiple centuries.  There are enormous old trees in Europe.  Likewise, the white and red pines and the Norway spruce we planted are very long-lived.

So that's a bit more about my intended operation.  We've also got extensive white-cedar, and that wood can be valuable.  But I would only ever be thinning in that stuff-regeneration is just too precarious to eliminate stands...so not a lot going there.  Maybe a few posts and poles, but I won't be sawing up the cedar.  Anything I could make from that, I can better make with the larch, which will be young stock and devoid of heart rot.

Finally, I will soon have a range of hybrid aspen clones testing on my farm.  Because of extremely fast growth of these plants, I may be cutting and dealing with aspen before I'm through.  There is already a bit of trembling aspen in my swamp, as well as quite a bit of balsam poplar, really a type of aspen (rhizomatous root system).  But these other, soon-to-be-installed hybrid entities will be their own thing, used for testing, but quite quickly forming clonal groves on my property.  Then, I can harvest and saw up some of those......for whatever!

I have no illusions about "market".  At most, we think perhaps we could interest someone in larch siding, maybe decking boards, greenhouse-building material for organic growers, Amish folks who know of and like larch wood for a variety of uses....and a few more I've got up my sleeve.  But above all of that, this is to be a "hobby" for a guy going into retirement that knows he is going to need a lot to do!  And who will enjoy doing it.  All the while making improvements to the site.  If one dollar ends up in my pocket because of anything I do there, I will be surprised.

On the other hand-working with not one but two national/international groups, I may have the opportunity to create prototypes of items we might make out of either of these hybrid entities.....to be used as samples or examples of what is possible.  So, on that score, I may be able to produce some nice aspen paneling with wavy, figured grain.  Some folks like that kind of stuff.  Likewise, I may be able to showcase the marvelous attributes of that larch wood.  Such great stuff-useful across a wide range of applications.  Time will tell on this score.  But for sure, I will want to have the ability to cut and process material for our own various uses.

Thanks,
tom

About 20 years ago I read an article about someone that would inject dye into growing popular, or something, to give lumber a special look. Maybe the opposite of maple syrup. I think he had a patent on it or was trying. Your writings reminded me of that.

Quote from: wisconsitom on February 27, 2019, 08:50:50 AMI very likely am going to end up with a Woodland Mills T-Rex trailer, to which I will likely add my own electric winch.

See if you can test the wireless remote control before buying. Some of them have a significant delay between pressing the button and actually doing what you selected. The wireless remote sold with the Harbor Freight 2500# Badlands winch is notorious for this (the remote also has a reputation for failing and for not having replacements available). FWIW, that 2500# badlands winch also has some design issues. there's a good reason it's their price-leader. Their 3500# winch is much better designed, and significantly faster (though you'll need to be very careful about not pulling more than your boom can take - the boom is rated for 450#, if I recall). I'm not pushing that particular brand, just wanted to give you a heads up.

Thanks John Mc.  I'm going to make a note of that winch info.  Very helpful.

tom

PS...saw where there's a US (or Canadian-can't remember) manufacturer now offering a forestry trailer w/knuckleboom loader for "just" $7000.  Geared towards scale I want to be on....can't remember the name of co.....but I thought that not too unreasonable for someone that can afford it.  Maybe dig up link later.

Just re-looked and it's an ebay seller.  But...this is interesting...he or she is in Wausau, WI!  That's quite near me and even closer to my farm.  Evidently this outfit is making a range of sizes of forestry trailer with boom/grapple.  So we do indeed now have domestic production of exactly the small-scale forestry equipment we're talking about here.  

Still well out of my price range, but good to see this happening.  I don't know what the name of the outfit is, and tried to contact, but got bogged down in ebay's hoops.  No contact made yet.  "Gloriago-35" is seller name on ebay.  Look like nice units.

tom

Check for an old Jonsered Iron Horse, or new. That with their log trailer will do well, similar to the tracked skidder puller in the video above.
Another thought. For about 25 years I did a fair amount of small scale logging, for my own use using a little 20 HP Ford 4x4 compact diesel tractor. I welded up a frame to help push brush up and over the driver. For the first 15 years or so I just used a short chain attached to a drawbar on the 3 point arms. I had to be careful not to lift the arms too high or the front end would come up. To help that I made a weight box out of a 3.5' long piece of railroad rail and with the rail mounted so the base attached to the front weight bracket I welded the ends closed and when I needed more weight, I added a bunch of cast iron window weights on too. After about 15 years I bought a 3 point hitch log arch. It had a space of about 23" between the sides of the arch. I then would back up to where the arch was over the log and I hooked a chain around the log and up to the arch. On heavy logs I also used a short chain that ran from the underside of the log, hooked to the lift chain and it then hooked to the fixed draw bar on the tractor so the tractor would not drive out from over the log. Doing it that way the front only needed the original 5 suitcase weights (33#) each and the front only rose a inch or 2 then that under chain stopped it. With that I could pull out logs that were 23-24" at the butt and up to about 20' long, if bigger I pulled from the small end. My limiting factor was the forest floor, if dry it went well, if wet, not so much. The best was frozen ground with little or no snow. Much of my woods tends to be wet (about 50%)

Oh, after 25 years I bought two new ways, first an 8000# excavator, far better in wet ground, lots of lift and I could drag and steer the pulled load by swinging the cab, but travel speed was only .7 MPH at full speed.(but my woodlot is only 15 acres) I also bought a 36 HP tractor, 4x4 with cab and hydrostatic drive, much better except in the wetter spots. On that if doing firewood I more often tend to either buck the log and fill the loader bucket or I sometimes cut the log into about 105" lengths (I cut firewood to 21" for my evaporator, thus 5 pieces from 105"). Then I take off the bucket and quick attach the 4' forks. With that I can carry several logs on the forks, far more wood than would fit in the bucket. I fill the forks and use a ratchet strap to hold them on. With that, I need to add the roughly 2000# weight box on the 3 point arms or the front is carrying too much weight.

Thanks maple flats.  I mentioned the iron horse, either in this thread or another I've got running here.  I like those things and in fact, you are exactly right...I could do what I need to do with nothing more than an iron horse and a good forwarding trailer.  In terms of forest and plantation improvement that is.......

But somewhere around here...I don't blame folks for not seeing everything I've written....I mention that for a host of reasons not having to do directly with small-scale logging, I intend to purchase some sort of UTV to do my lugging.  I'd prefer not to revisit the host of posts explaining to me that a tractor is what I really need.  Many have pointed that out.....and I already want a tractor some day.  But......

.....I am set on a powerful UTV, preferably one with diesel in it and hydrostatic transmission.  I'd love a tractor.  But it's one thing at a time.

Thanks,
tom

PS....the real thing I need to do first....before UTV...before logging trailer....before Wood-Miser......is the erection of a pole shed (with framed-in small living quarters, well dug, septic system, outdoor boiler...sheesh) at that location.  Big $$.

Quote from: wisconsitom on February 28, 2019, 12:34:29 PMPS....the real thing I need to do first....before UTV...before logging trailer....before Wood-Miser......is the erection of a pole shed (with framed-in small living quarters, well dug, septic system, outdoor boiler...sheesh) at that location.  Big $$.

Nah, get a 20 or 40' shipping container set for valuables and a portable shed for a cabin.  Reasonable $ and up quick.  Easy to sell to if you decide to upgrade.  Normally I'd recommend an old camper.  Fine in WI in the summer, but not in winter.  Brrrrr....

Unless you plan to live there full time, just go with gallon jugs of water and a composting toilet. ;)

wisconsitom,
I've never seen a post on here that didn't wander from the original subject matter.It can be a little frustrating but most of us suffer some form of Attention deficit disorder so don't take it personally.Must be from sawdust,diesel smoke and chainsaw exhaust ;D

Quote from: wisconsitom on February 27, 2019, 12:49:30 PM
I once took a look at small forwarders.  OMG!  Such cool stuff!  So utterly unaffordable!  I am learning, and agree much with comments above.  Specifically, how it is impossible to justify the real good stuff for small-scale ops.

I would simply LOVE one of these forwarding trailers with knuckleboom!  I greatly enjoy operating such loaders, having done so on a much larger scale (with huge, urban tree removals) for decades, atop the high seat on a Prentice loader.

But.....there's always a "but".....I am never going to be able to afford outright...or justify the necessary financing...that it would take to have the fancy stuff.  I am going to be a slow-poke, with slow equipment, doing slow, hopefully careful work.  My initial harvest in larch will be rot-free, straight-grained stuff.  But small.  I will always be leaving the biggest and best trees to keep growing.  We in fact intend legacy trees on that site.....stuff to grow as long as it can, all the while sheltering new recruits of varying species that are already present in my woods.  All the coniferous species we planted in the plantation area were matched for longevity.  Thus, we did not plant tamaracks, even though I love that tree.  It "only" has a lifespan of roughly 100 years.  The hybrid larch we did plant, meanwhile, has a lifespan measured in multiple centuries.  There are enormous old trees in Europe.  Likewise, the white and red pines and the Norway spruce we planted are very long-lived.

So that's a bit more about my intended operation.  We've also got extensive white-cedar, and that wood can be valuable.  But I would only ever be thinning in that stuff-regeneration is just too precarious to eliminate stands...so not a lot going there.  Maybe a few posts and poles, but I won't be sawing up the cedar.  Anything I could make from that, I can better make with the larch, which will be young stock and devoid of heart rot.

Finally, I will soon have a range of hybrid aspen clones testing on my farm.  Because of extremely fast growth of these plants, I may be cutting and dealing with aspen before I'm through.  There is already a bit of trembling aspen in my swamp, as well as quite a bit of balsam poplar, really a type of aspen (rhizomatous root system).  But these other, soon-to-be-installed hybrid entities will be their own thing, used for testing, but quite quickly forming clonal groves on my property.  Then, I can harvest and saw up some of those......for whatever!

I have no illusions about "market".  At most, we think perhaps we could interest someone in larch siding, maybe decking boards, greenhouse-building material for organic growers, Amish folks who know of and like larch wood for a variety of uses....and a few more I've got up my sleeve.  But above all of that, this is to be a "hobby" for a guy going into retirement that knows he is going to need a lot to do!  And who will enjoy doing it.  All the while making improvements to the site.  If one dollar ends up in my pocket because of anything I do there, I will be surprised.

On the other hand-working with not one but two national/international groups, I may have the opportunity to create prototypes of items we might make out of either of these hybrid entities.....to be used as samples or examples of what is possible.  So, on that score, I may be able to produce some nice aspen paneling with wavy, figured grain.  Some folks like that kind of stuff.  Likewise, I may be able to showcase the marvelous attributes of that larch wood.  Such great stuff-useful across a wide range of applications.  Time will tell on this score.  But for sure, I will want to have the ability to cut and process material for our own various uses.

Thanks,
tom

You are kinda in the same boat as me.  I logged with my father from 14 years old until I moved away for college and a career in information system. At the same time as my career,  I logged for fun on my days off. Not much money in small scale logging but it was a great hobby.  Now semi retired, I am doing more logging and I enjoy it.  My main goal is to enjoy it and my second goal is leave the forest better then when I started cutting.   It's about taking pride and enjoying what you do.  If I make a few bucks on the side all the better.  

Quote from: wisconsitom on February 28, 2019, 12:34:29 PM
Thanks maple flats.  I mentioned the iron horse, either in this thread or another I've got running here.  I like those things and in fact, you are exactly right...I could do what I need to do with nothing more than an iron horse and a good forwarding trailer.  In terms of forest and plantation improvement that is.......

But somewhere around here...I don't blame folks for not seeing everything I've written....I mention that for a host of reasons not having to do directly with small-scale logging, I intend to purchase some sort of UTV to do my lugging.  I'd prefer not to revisit the host of posts explaining to me that a tractor is what I really need.  Many have pointed that out.....and I already want a tractor some day.  But......

.....I am set on a powerful UTV, preferably one with diesel in it and hydrostatic transmission.  I'd love a tractor.  But it's one thing at a time.

Thanks,
tom

PS....the real thing I need to do first....before UTV...before logging trailer....before Wood-Miser......is the erection of a pole shed (with framed-in small living quarters, well dug, septic system, outdoor boiler...sheesh) at that location.  Big $$.

On most social media that I am aware off, there is to many people telling everybody what they need.  Some with good intentions and that is great but some is ill intended.  The important thing is you do it your way.  You gather the data, decide what and how you want to approach your work and go with that.  Doing it your way and doing it so you enjoy it is the most important thing.  Take care and good luck. 
Ray
lostcaper.ca
  

Thanks all.  I'm having fun here.  No worries.

Guess I better re-visit John Deere.  For whatever reason, I'd written off the Gator.  But now..seeing the upgrades made in '18 and onward....the XUV 855D has caught my interest.  Great-looking rig, it's got the diesel-dazzler I'm after (no hydrostatic though) and is set up in the now-standard "hybrid" mode that I think actually makes good sense in all these makes.

Because I doubt I'll ever be able to afford Bobcat stuff, which is my favorite, I am pretty much looking at JD and Kubota.  Luckily, both well-represented by dealers in my area.

Thanks again,
tom

PS...getting back to that "hybrid" designation, these newer models-whether JD, Kubota, Bobcat, or any others.....are full of plastic, which I don't like.  But at the same time, they are full of plastic, which I like!  By which I mean, with a lot of this newer stuff, I miss "the iron", but I also think they are making improvements to these units with each iteration.  I do hope though to get one without much in the way of electronics.  Just won't be needing fancy read-outs and 20 different functions on my UTV dashboard!

If and when you do get around to looking at winches, I can recommend getting one with the synthetic rope instead of steel cable. We had lots of trouble with steel cable spooling out on its own and causing tangling issues. Switching over to synthetic rope was a huge improvement, much better to work with. Also, our #3500 utv winches from TSC free spool out easily down to about 25 degrees, below that you have to power spool out which becomes a slow process. Good luck!

Scott B.

Quote from: upnut on March 02, 2019, 08:52:25 AM
If and when you do get around to looking at winches, I can recommend getting one with the synthetic rope instead of steel cable. We had lots of trouble with steel cable spooling out on its own and causing tangling issues. Switching over to synthetic rope was a huge improvement, much better to work with. Also, our #3500 utv winches from TSC free spool out easily down to about 25 degrees, below that you have to power spool out which becomes a slow process. Good luck!

Scott B.

Do you have problems with the rope fraying or cutting?  I have a winch with steal cable and cable kinks when ran though a pulley, hard on hands etc. 

Quote from: TKehl on February 28, 2019, 03:39:19 PM

Quote from: wisconsitom on February 28, 2019, 12:34:29 PMPS....the real thing I need to do first....before UTV...before logging trailer....before Wood-Miser......is the erection of a pole shed (with framed-in small living quarters, well dug, septic system, outdoor boiler...sheesh) at that location.  Big $$.

Nah, get a 20 or 40' shipping container set for valuables and a portable shed for a cabin.  Reasonable $ and up quick.  Easy to sell to if you decide to upgrade.  Normally I'd recommend an old camper.  Fine in WI in the summer, but not in winter.  Brrrrr....

Unless you plan to live there full time, just go with gallon jugs of water and a composting toilet. ;)

Awesome advice.  There are lots of ways of doing things that work and that you are not spending a fortune on.

gaproperty- The outside is fuzzy on the first twenty feet or so, which is the part seeing the most abuse. I try to always make straight-line pulls to avoid rubbing against other trees and debris, saves battery power and breakage issues. Always make sure there is no possibility of contact with the chainsaw! The steel cable acted like a coil spring unspooling itself at the worst times and then tangling up the winch. The synthetic rope lays flat on the spool and stays put. Had to upgrade anchor equipment, the rope has been stout.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38622/Picture0303190957_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1551625510)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38622/Picture0303190958_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1551625590)
 

Scott B.

Appreciate the winch advice, upnut.  I've been seeing that rope type on videos.  Thanks.

tom

Quote from: Rick Alger on February 19, 2019, 01:14:31 PM
Hi Tom,

I know nothing about ATV's, but I did years of commercial thinning of softwood stands with a horse, so I thought I'd add my two cents.

The horse was ideal for precision thinning, as I imagine the ATV would be, but there were drawbacks. On long skids pulling one log at a time is extremely inefficient, and trying to pile logs in the yard with a rope and pulley is even more so.

What worked best for me was hot yarding bunches of logs along or near trails, forwarding with a 4wd tractor with winch, and piling the wood with the same tractor (after bolting on forks)

I have hand-loaded logs on scoots and woods trailers and found it to be dangerous and time-consuming. I would also suggest you look into what you can and can't do with your larch. The larch here in NH  is of very limited use.

Anyway, I wish you the best on your project. Very few things in life match a good day in the woods.

You summed it up nicely and you are speaking through experience.  

Efficient Small Scale Firewood Harvest Method.
Every situation is different and it takes some experience to estimate what is the best harvest method. I cut 30 cords per years so my operations is small scale.  Here is what I found.  

I use my ATV to get into the woods to cut and haul 20 percent of a cord short distances (300 yards or so).  I like using my ATV on steep terrain because it has more control then my tractor with a heavy trailer load pushing me down steep slopes.  An  ATV is efficient for short hauls or when there is not enough wood to justify putting a bigger trail in for my Kubota tractor.  

In my current situation, I am cutting firewood about 1/2 mile up a logging trail. That's a long haul for an ATV size load. If I use my tractor, there are some steep slopes which is scary to navigate.  Given the situation, I plan my harvest with safety as a priority. In this situation,  I sometimes leave my tractor and trailer and wood splitter at the landing at the bottom of the steep hill.  I take my ATV and ATV trailer up the steep hill and collect the un-split firewood length peaces.  I haul these ATV loads to the landing at the bottom of hill where my Kubota tractor, trailer and wood splitter sits.  I move the wood from the atv trailer to the splitter then off the splitter directly into the back of the trailer that my Kubota hauls. After about 4 trips up and down the hill with my ATV, there is 3/4 of a cord of wood in the logging trailer that is pulled by my Kubota tractor.  Some customers are close enough to take this 3/4 cord load directory to their woodshed.  


Every situation is different.  When dealing with firewood, the less you have to handle the wood the more efficient your process.  It takes an old fat guy like me about 1 to 1.5 hours every time I have to handle a cord of firewood. A comical guy up the road claims you have to handle firewood so many times it's wore out by the time you get it to the stove.  

I have about 27 logging videos in a playlist on my youtube channel.  You can get a better understand by watching such videos.  Here is a link to my logging videos.  

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRIjtRXGGkDDWHdqaYSaO0NzmnuLe_cOw (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRIjtRXGGkDDWHdqaYSaO0NzmnuLe_cOw)

Didn't think I'd be writing this but folks, I'm looking seriously at Kubota RTV X1140!  Didn't think I wanted a "4-seater" but the box-to-seating conversion is just so slick....and the bed, when in 2-seat mode so large-that I now think this is the way for me to go.  Yes, we want to take family rides now and then, but with gramps (me) still being able to get work done.  I believe that such a unit would suit both purposes well, on into the foreseeable future.

This would be my "tractor" and our ride unit.  I think it a reasonable compromise.

Was also interested to learn of wide price range at dealers for new unit.  Many thousands of dollars of difference can be found in MSRP at various vendors.  One in Kansas has such a unit for "just" $14900 or thereabouts.  That's a good deal, comparatively-speaking.  Of course, I'm not in Kansas!

tom

"Missed out" on an '84 Ford Bronco II that showed up on Craig's list.  Was west coast unit and non-rusty.  Would have been quite good for intended purpose, but such items go quickly.  Was snowy, icy, rainy, crappy weekend to try and get out to see anything.  Not road-safe.

I had '89 and was great vehicle, one of best I've owned.  Oh well, back to the drawing board.

 Son and I also see where one can find many old Suzuki Samurais available, also on the west coast.  One could order, have trailered here, modify to suit needs, and still likely have less $$ spent than if purchasing new fancy UTV.  Yet I wonder....would Samurai (or what have you) really perform like a well-designed heavy-duty UTV?  My sense is that it would in some ways....and others, not so much.

Watched video comparing Mahindra mini-jeep (can't remember what they call the thing) and two UTV's...a Polaris Ranger and a Honda something-or-other.  The Mahindra could not do anything like what the two UTVs could do in mud, snow, and ice.  No comparison....the UTVs handled things much better than the heavy jeep-like unit with it's big, straight bumper right at ice-level and heavy weight.

tom

It's always a tradeoff.  A UTV or ATV will do better in mud.  There are ways to make the Bronco/Sami better, but still not as good in mud as a a stock UTV in most cases.  

We don't get the snows you get, but here, can't really tell a difference.  More a function of how good the tires are.

I miss my 93 Explorer with a 4" lift.  Was a nice go anywhere rig.  

The other plus of UTVs is they are made for offroad.  Some Rangers/Explorers/Broncos etc. have skidplates.  Others don't and should be added.  Just another factor to be ready for offroad.

A local rancher used to run all his fence in an old 4x4 Ranger.  Still has it, but mostly he uses a UTV now.  His main reason is it is easier on his knees and hips to get in and out.

Just shocking how much they cost though.  $14,900 is more than I paid for all 4 vehicles in our "fleet" (2 minivans, 3/4 ton Suburban 4x4, F350 4x4) plus my little Kubota tractor.   :o  :o  

I guess if it lets you keep doing what you love longer though, it'd be worth it.   :)  I always figured if I ended up in a wheelchair, I'd figure out how to strap myself to a Toro Dingo so I could still go out in the woods.    ;D

Heh T, you and I are alike in that regard....we will be out in the woods one way or another!  I have likewise never spent as much money on any vehicle I've ever owned as that amount which I contemplate spending on a UTV.  Even my son's former Polaris Ranger cost more than the Toyota 4Runner  I drive every day.  In that regard, an old street unit has the obvious advantage.  Say for example, if I'd been able to score that old Bronco II for $4000, that would have been great deal and much, much less expensive than full-size UTV I seek.  The seller was asking $5000, a lot for an old rig, but I believe he/she was tapping into the collector's market with that old classic.  I love old Bronco II's but I would not have paid that price for it.

Then we sees lots of 80's and 90's Samurais for sale on the west coast, usually for right around 3-grand.  Not a bad deal per se...so long as unit is as advertised, but by the time one switched out the tires, installed winch, attempted to make a cargo bed out of the rear end of the thing....added whatever suspension parts it needed to enable one to actually go down a bumpy trail......I suspect you would have roughly equivalent amounts of $$ in either type of unit.  Talking to son again....said maybe the best option is the saving of pennies....to get what one really wants!  That would be the big Kubota unit.  RTV X1140.  I'd be done looking!

All Kubota and J. Deere units now feature full skid plating. With Kubota, you don't have the dick-around of paying still more for power steering, brush guard, hydrostatic, bedliner, power dump, etc.

tom

A brother alerted me to govt. auctions of units called the Growler ITV.  A couple different models perhaps, looks like a jeep.  Has 4-wheel steering!  I am signed up to get notification.

tom

Most of my harvesting will be thinning for firewood and some fir logs to mill road side on the woodlot along the main road. Use the slabs for firewood. It's a dirt farm road into forest and fields that is the main road by the woodlot. So it isn't like it's out along a paved highway with 50 mph traffic. I could work all day and never see a car. What I plan on is a Honda Wheeler with direct drive, no belts and something like a Logrite arch. I have  1000 - 1200 stems to the acre 20-50 feet tall, so lots to thin and burn and slice. I'm not there yet, but maybe in 5 years. One can dream. Priorities change.  :D

Once I get that Kubota 1140X, I am going to be able to simply stack the early, small logs across the rather large steel bed of that unit, strap them down, and carry them up the lane sideways like that (I think I have clearance generally).  No need for log arch or forestry trailer at this time.  Later I will need one or the other but can likely get by with just log arch.  Because this bigger UTV has a large dump box when in 2-person mode, it will be sufficient for me for such tasks as moving gravel and dirt.  I won't need the big fancy (and expensive) forestry trailer at this time.

Now I just have to save my pennies for the nice orange machine.  This will be the unit I will be using for the remainder of my days.

I had little interest in 4-seater UTVs, but when I saw the slickness of this package, my mind was changed.  It takes right around 30 seconds to switch from 4-seater to 2-seater and vice versa.  And that dump box when unit is in 2-seater mode is larger than just about anything out there.  Me like!  And the 1140X is just a chunk.  Much, much beefier and more substantial than say, the kid's Polaris Ranger we used to drive around up there.

One day, I scanned more than 1300 ATV, UTV, and snowmobile adds on a popular online ad platform.  There was not one Kubota unit listed for sale.

tom