sneak peak...
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Definitely subscribing to this one...
wow... thats some big steel...anxious to see more progress pics :)
2 cylinders, that's interesting 🧐🧐
May I ask why?
I have a 5" x 36" cylinder I am planning to put on my processor, if I ever get started on it😏😏
Im using 2 cylinders mostly because I have alot of big oak (which prob should go to saw mill) to cut & split. And because I hate when I try to split a round and the splitter says NOPE! ;D
I have a 5 x 32 on my splitter. I have an 18 hp gas briggs with a 2 stage barnes 28 gpm pump, I thought about a 2nd cylinder but was thinking of orienting top and bottom for the big logs that try to torque my pusher. It would double the psi but 1/2 the speed. with a 2 stage pump, not such a big deal. It also will double the volume of fluid on the return stroke that can increase heat and decrease longevity of you valve. May want to consider a dump valve for return. Looks like you are making it beefy, but in this system, nature will find your weakest link. I push through any thing, my pressure is set at 3k. twisted branch areas, if I see things moving, I back off the pusher to let the log re-center its self.
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If I do the math correct, surface of piston of 5 inch cylinder. surface area of circle= pi . radius squared, 2.5 x 2.5 x 3.14 =19.625 sq. inches. x 3.000 psi = 58,875 psi. for both is 117,750 psi. Enough to bend or break something for sure. Of course you want it to split rather than shear stuff. In the beginning my leading edge was too sharp, and would get wavy after splitting elm ect. My wedge is 18inches tall. My BIL had a 30 inch log try to roll over backward and bent the top of my pusher. I extended it and added reinforcement. My H beam is 8 x 8 with 1/2 inch web.
I like the double H beam design, this is like boxing and the square tube down the center should keep everything from twisting. I got a good deal on my cylinder or I might have gone shorter, but I am glad I did not. I put stops on the rod to shorten it up, but on scraggly stuff, I have plenty of room to put the next log in line to push a stubborn one on through. Keep the pics and details coming.
Twin 4x36" cylinders. My only gripe is they only have 1/2" ports. Would love to cut them out snd install 3/4" or 1" to speed things up a bit.
Well you can still run 3/4 line #12 i think and just reduce it at the cylinder. in addition to radius, resistance to flow has a length component as well, so a short restriction is better than a long one. plus you could tee of the valve and run two lines or a bigger one and T at the cylinders. The second is prob. better, in terms of neatness and cost. What flow is your pump rated at/ This will help you decide on hose size. Engineering toolbox has some devises for calc., or your local hydraulic shop can help. It is more expensive, but I took my splitter to the hydraulic place and we custom made hoses so they did not rub and looked professional. If you have a buddy on a road const. crew, they will often have access and permission to make up some "personal use" hoseds and save you some.
your new cylinder surface area is 12.56 and assuming you can generate 3k psi, total each cylinder is 37,680 psi or 75,360 psi for both. or 37.5 ton. I have not found a log i cannot split with my single 5 inch cylinder. Look into wedge design, cause you want to split, not cut so much.
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:P
I like the elevated slide platform. esp. if you are doing a multi-split wedge(4 way and such). It will allow for some relief under the side wing splitters. The side pieces are great but will create potential "pinch points" so not sure where the controls will be. is this a big log splitter or a true processor with remote operators station.
Do you know pump flow and pressure. My brother calls it monkey proofing to design it so people cannot harm the equipment or themselves. He makes a lot of mods to road equipment, for a big company, some liability. Also important if you have a wife or child who may operate this at times.
Will be full processor once complete. My pump for now will be my Takeuchi TL 250 skid steer...23.5 gal min at 3000 psi w/ 98 hp runnin it. I bought a kubota v2203 from a Carrier Transcold refer unit that will eventually power it. Im thinking a tandem pump with 25 gal min from each outlet will suffice. One circuit to run split cycle and one curcuit to run saw motor, clamp & log infeed. Wont be running more than 1 circuit at a time, not looking for high production as I only cut for myself & family.
If you are only running 1 circuit a t a time, you may get by with only one pump with a power beyond capability. that was my next question, will the log drop down from above. You will have to protect your side braces from getting snagged by a log and bending. i did this to my staging table that had angle iron, so i had to cut off the top and weld to the bottom. it may need to be solid sides. What is the width between the side uprights? Might consider something that angles to the center rather than flat or right angles. You mentioned big oak logs and some of those are over 30 inches. what is you max. predicted log size? With all that power you may want to further box in your I beams or at least gradually increase stress as you test it. can be done later. i lived in Albany and split lots of 30 inch oak logs with an 8 # maul. gets rid of stress, but hate to see you limit your size. Is this going to be patterned after a commercial model. You or someone who likes you must have some great fab and machine skills.
at 23.5 gallons per minute 1 cylinder will travel at 38 feet per minute out, and would need to know your rod size for retraction speed. Of course both together would be 1/2 that speed, and cycle time would also be shorter if you use cylinder stops to shorten the effective push/pull. I bought a set from Jacks small engine, and it came with 4 diff. sizes, to use in combo.
Looks like the beams are 16" wide and about 20 inches between the side supports.?
with the double H beam design, it would be easy to do a wedge with side splitter that can go up and down, since the center supports are offset and not under the wedge. may also want a conveyor and to be able to raise and lower (adjust) the side splitter wings.
what is the HP rating of your engine, that may dictate your pump. I did not realize that a refer motor was that big. I started with my splitter running off skid steer hydraulics as well. It is nice when it is eventually stand alone.
here of some pics of my splitter that may help, even though yours is a processor.
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a few more showing the pusher repair/modification. as you get this up and running any problems will be R & D. ;D
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here is my attempt at a multi split wedge, not used much as you can see, just slips on in front of usual wedge. not good for gnarly stuff
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Quote from: doc henderson on February 22, 2019, 09:52:56 AM
here of some pics of my splitter that may help, even though yours is a processor.
What are those rings on the cylinder shaft?..are they just spacers so she doesnt go in all the way?
yes, aluminum with a stainless spring so they clip on. most of my stuff is 16 inches so it can go in my stove front to back. My cylinder is 32 inches, and you feel like you are wasting time and fuel if it goes all the way back. they are easily removeable if you need more length for a longer log. came as a set for my 2 inch push rod. 1,2,3,and 4 inch. for a total of 10 inches or any combo. so I can push the valve back to detent while getting wood ready for the next split. On straighter logs I use the marker with a wheel set to 16 inches to be more consistent.
my valve is a standard prince with 3/4 " ports, flipped over from factory config. so it can be neatly attached to cylinder, all hoses are 3/4 ", suction hose 1.25 " to fit pump. with the valve in the center, I can work from either side, but with the area I have, I typically work on the right side behind the engine, and put my work table on the left. I can control the engine and out of the wind up next to the south side of my shop, and the Left is open so I can move logs with the skid loader.
Quote from: stevea303 on February 21, 2019, 07:02:00 PM
Twin 4x36" cylinders. My only gripe is they only have 1/2" ports. Would love to cut them out snd install 3/4" or 1" to speed things up a bit.
You can weld some spuds to make 3/4" or 1". Make sure you hone out where the piston is welded as it will be expanded,if not done it will take out your packing. I did this to my piston and used 3/4" lines and 22 GPM pump and 30 GPM double detent valve works fine.
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WOW!!! looking great. I like the angled log guides. The splitter looks good and with the drop off behind the splitter should be ok. the chunks that go under the bottom wings will tend to get compressed. so you could bevel them mostly up if that is a problem, also you could stage wings progressively back on the main wedge so they do not all engage at the same time and the upper split stock (log) can move up before engaging the next higher splitter. not intended to take away from your great build. what is the hole/notch at the top of the wedge? lots of nice blocking slong the beam, you can also just box it in where there is no slide needed. You can do the welding on your cylinders but I think a short adapter from 1/2 " to 3/4 " will work as well, and not much work and will not damage your cylinder. When I was considering 2 cylinders, I wanted a way to only use both when I needed. A valve would have made it not move, and it would need to still move without offering resistance. Like the engines that can run on 4 cylinders or all 8. Anyone know how to engage and disengage a 2nd hydraulic cylinder on the fly like that?
What is the rectangle cutout behind the wedge. Looks like maybe to raise and lower wedge. Looks like is slight angled forward to help keep the log from workin up. May need some welds on the pusher face to keep the log from moving. lots of force with that much splitting going on. Mine (multisplit wedge) works on straight grained stuff, not elm or mulberry. is the slit in the center for a guide?
steve looks like you using great materials and sparing nothing. As well you have access to machining and fabrication that most could only wish for. So I hope this is all not so far below your skill level that you find it irritating. That being said, here are few more pics of my multi-wedge and the staggering the side wedges, and the reduction to the 1/2 inch bungs that came on my cylinder. I do not feel there is a reduction in flow, I do not hear any flow restriction sounds at the point of restriction at each end of my cylinder.
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I designed the whole entire process or in my head and then put it on paper. Fortunately my buddy owns a weld shop so I give him a material list and everything gets cut out CNC plasma. The best part is it's all at his cost.
The fire wood processor at my sawmill we built 20+years ago and did some of it right. The splitter cylinder is 41/2" bore with a 3" rod. This is a good size as 5" requires too much flow for 25gph. The 3" rod is for fast return. The main pump is 25 and should have been bigger. Single stage pumps are best. The engine is a 74hp cummins B. Biggest mistake was making it self contained. The engine is in the way and so are the tanks. We have never moved it. All that stuff should be in a dog house off to the side. Also the hyd. chainsaw is too slow. [404 pitch] Should be 3/4 pitch with a big motor. Any one considering building a machine : our cylinder size was the right choice.
What I want from a splitting chamber on a processor is for every stick that falls or rolls into it, to line up with splitting knife. It doesn't always happen but that is what I want.A buddy built one with a round bottom, you had to wait for it to stop rolling back and forth before you could split.
There is no reason .404 harvester chain shouldn't cut fast. I've never ran a harvester with a 3/4 pitch setup, guys I talk to that did hated them because they said they cut slow. That's their story, my personal experience with .404 on harvesters is they are capable of cutting faster than any splitting cycle can keep up with.
In my experience bigger is always better in cutting wood. The 404 we have is probably underpowered. It is the bottleneck in a sense that it just takes to long to cut and unlike the splitter it can be made faster easyer. We have a few l&m cut off saws laying around and chainsaw slasher, all 3/4 pitch. We have been told that the 3/4 will stay sharper longer but uses more oil. The pump section running the saw will have to be bigger. So many other projects.
I have heard the 3/4 will stay sharp longer in dirty wood, but as for speed, the 404 can be made to cut really fast. Our Ponsse harvesters all run 404 and they cut really fast.
3/4" would be a lot of "chips". I go to circle if I thought .404 would not be enough.
Quote from: barbender on February 23, 2019, 10:00:08 PM
I have heard the 3/4 will stay sharp longer in dirty wood, but as for speed, the 404 can be made to cut really fast. Our Ponsse harvesters all run 404 and they cut really fast.
Now that think about it there are 2 404's, 063 and 080 ? Also new tooth styles. I have not kept up on these things.
Yep we run the .080 .404 harvester chain. I'm pretty sure that's what as on the Dyna firewood processor I rented as well. I wasn't wanting for cutting speed.
Doc, what is width and thickness of your knife?
the material for what I call the wedge is 1" the 2 pieces the make it up are each 6" wide for a total of 12" at the base. the wedge front is now 5.5" since I had to make the front edge "less sharp" . that is why I call it a wedge, the original was milled out to a point and it would start to deflect and then really go crazy as the next logs would try to follow that wave. Had to be straitened. and eventually ground the leading edge less of a sharp angle. the two pieces were welded with v notching to make a through and through weld.
I think it was cold rolled steel. Like Steve, I was fortunate my cousin used to work for mega manufacturing making the piranha metal muncher. I was sold 18 feet of 8 inch H beam for a dollar a foot for scrap. He had the wedges and cylinder mounts machined so it helps things look prof. I have seen guys make the pin holes with a cutting torch, and it works but not as polished. I used 11 feet for mine and got a 5 x 32 inch cylinder for 1/2 price.
Thank you Doc
On with the conveyor...
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how are you going to move this thing when you get it done? its gonna weigh a whole lotta tons!!!!
Already mounted it on a 7k axle. Prob add a second axle once its complete.
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Saw mounted and plumbed...
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good god man! you must be working 24/7. Can we have more info on the saw unit. bar size, flow requirements, brand,source, aprox. cost. I hope you mock up and run some things before full welded incase a 1/2" of something being adjusted would make a diff. If this is patterned after a known entity great, but if truly a one off, you may not see conflict until it is operational. As an example, it may be easier to locate you axle regarding tongue weight after the build is close to done. My conveyor worked great, so I added some paddles onto my detachable chain, and now sometimes small pieces will get stuck on the side at the end where the paddle flips under. Now I need to bring it to the plasma cutter and follow the radius around further. looking great!!!
Yeah Ive put alot of hours into it so far. Saw unit is a Danzco simple saw, 36" bar, 21-23 gpm @ 2000 psi. Was gonna build my own but that part was just easier to buy it complete.
I do test everything before a full 100% weld is done. Ive had to change a few things/measurements so its good I did.
It is def a "one of" unit.
Now I gotta work out the bugs in my hydraulics, I have something plumbed that is back feeding my divider and sequence valves.
Seems sturdy. ;D
keep up the good work. I know there are guys here that can help you with your hydro circuit. I will leave the trouble shooting of that to them. you might find someone local help as well. If not you might draw your circuit and post it so they have something to work with. Pics are worth a thousand words but a little diagram and verbiage does not hurt either. Regards!
Since you are going to be a fixture around here, how bout a little more background on you. might help us know your strengths and weaknesses, so we don't speak at length about things you already know ect. cheers! smiley_beertoast
Went from Electronics field to excavation. Spent many years operating the big stuff until the disks in my lower back had enough. 2 surgeries later im doin good.
All fab and welding has been self taught in my garage with my own equipment.
Hydraulics question...
I have the prince auto cycle 2 valve with power beyond hooked to another 3 valve assembly. Coming out of the auto cycle do I just come out of the PB to the next valve or do I need to tie the low pressure "out flow" if you will to the tank also?
Instructions that came with my prince autocycle said that port has to return to tank.
Thanks Wiam, that's how I plumbed it but wanted to double check.
what do you figure will be the savings between this build and a pre-packaged one?
I can see huge future savings in repair cost, since this thing looks like it will survive a nuclear blast :D
Finally have everything plumbed and cutting wood. I put together my own "one lever function" that will drop the log clamp, provide fluid to the saw feed cylinder and then the saw motor. Question is what could I put in the saw feed cylinder that would allow it the feed only to a certain pressure. In other words it would feed quickly until it hits a certain amount of pressure or resistance and then slow down as to not stall the chain. I don't know if a simple relief valve set to say 50-100 psi would suffice or not? looking for ideas or recommendations.
Would it work to have a Tee fitting, one side going to the saw tilt and the other to the motor? Add a flow restriction such that the arm is going down but enough pressure is going to the saw motor so it is spinning. Then, when the bar hits resistance (back pressure) the remaining flow goes to the motor. Increase in pressure will only go to the motor since the arm can't more until it cuts.
i would be surprised if that issue has not been addressed by the engineers that designed you saw unit. The saw advance is prob. a cylinder and therefore low flow. i wonder if there is a pressure relief adj. to bypass the arm that applies pressure to the bar. lets see some wood splittin pics!!!
Quote from: stevea303 on March 01, 2019, 12:12:06 PM
Finally have everything plumbed and cutting wood. I put together my own "one lever function" that will drop the log clamp, provide fluid to the saw feed cylinder and then the saw motor. Question is what could I put in the saw feed cylinder that would allow it the feed only to a certain pressure. In other words it would feed quickly until it hits a certain amount of pressure or resistance and then slow down as to not stall the chain. I don't know if a simple relief valve set to say 50-100 psi would suffice or not? looking for ideas or recommendations.
I did a one lever function as well for the clamp, saw motor and saw cylinder. Initially, the problem was that the saw cylinder was too fast. My solution was to install a flow control for the saw cylinder right next to the the said lever. Worked like a dream because if you restricted the flow it would allow the amount of the restriction to go to the saw motor.
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This is the only photo I could find. The Flow control was not in the pic. It ended up just to the left of the left black lever. The two levers on the far left are the Prince autocycle controls.
Steve, what was the cost for the Danzco saw?
Barbender,
I bought the simple saw version at around $2100.
Doc,
The unit i bought was designed to be a "hand fed" unit, i adapted it to feed with a cylinder.
Blackfoot griz,
Gotta tell ya, your build is was sparked my build, my wife thanks you. 🤣🤣
Anyway I called the co that built your manifold snd was quoted $850 + shipping so i decided to build my own.
What ive decided to try is a "Grove Reducing & Relief Small Volume Regulator"
Spec's are...
- Max inlet: 3000
- Range out: 5/60 psi
- Serial: L25728
- 1/4" NPT ports in & out
Im thinking 60 psi is enough feed press, what you guys think?
the feed pressure range may be enough, but depends on the physics of your design. what is the torque arm the cylinder is pushing against. these factors can reduce or multiply the force. If you are mocked up, you may be able to push manually with a scale in place to measure the force needed to get an estimate. If the valve is variable, that would be great so you can fine tune it for other softer species if you want, or at least find a sweet spot that does it all.
A lot of engineering. you have to look at the degrees of rotation your need from you saw, and the linear length of the cylinder rod, and determine the length of the arm it pushes against. the force will change as it rotates as well. you can figure the max. length of the torque arm by drawing to scale on graph paper. plot the angle with 2 lines and to scale look for the distance out that the length between the lines is equal to the push rod extension length. or use trig, or calculus. :P. It will have the least force at the extremes of the arc since the force on the torque are is relative to the distance perpendicular to the force. I would say you want the most force when the bar is in the center of the log.
Steve I use a 9-7960-4 flow control valve and a 9-6135-50-L relief valve both from Surplus Center Lincoln Ne to control the cylinder on my homemade hyd chain saw on my firewood processor. I didn't get fancy and set up a one lever set up. I use a three spool valve one is for my adjustable wedge the other runs the log clamp and the third runs the saw drop cylinder and the flow control is mounted right on the valve so it can be adjusted if needed. I used a bent axis piston motor for my saw motor so it seems after I got the flow control and relief set for the speed of the cut I don't have to adjust the speed the saw has plenty of power if when the chain gets a little dull.
Hedgerow,
I have that same 1/4" needle valve inline just before my cylinder so i can easily adjust feed rate also, however i have a small 1" cylinder with 1/2" rod/6" stroke for the saw feed. My adjustment is veryyyyy sensitive.
I actually used a sequence valve into a priority valve that splits 2 gal to feed cyl and 21-22 to saw motor. The adjustment on the priority valve is the one that is extremely sensitive. Im talkin 1/20th of a turn and it goes from barely moving to trying to chop the log like its an axe.
Doc,
Saw is mounted and running, feed angles seem fine snd cylinder has no prob feeding thru the cut. I just need to somehow slow down the hydraulic feed pressure so chsin doesnt bind in the bigger stuff. I have a decent video but I cant post it, i guess its to big of a file.
did not mean to over do my response. was trying to address how to check the pressure needed for good push through the log. and some factors that may come into play at lower pressures. I too have not mastered getting video on despite several folks trying to help. i know you have to create a you tube account and link to it. it is in tech forum. good luck.
the 2 gallons going to the feed cylinder, is there a subsequent pressure relief after that, but before the cylinder. the internal volume of your cylinder is 4.71 cubic inches. or 0.02 gallons, so with no back pressure from a log, it would really fly. may need a second flow valve (like the infinite variable speed one I have for the carriage movement on my sawmill), then a pressure relief for when the saw is in the log. just throwing out some ideas.
Quote from: stevea303 on March 04, 2019, 01:08:27 PM
Barbender,
I bought the simple saw version at around $2100.
Doc,
The unit i bought was designed to be a "hand fed" unit, i adapted it to feed with a cylinder.
Blackfoot griz,
Gotta tell ya, your build is was sparked my build, my wife thanks you. 🤣🤣
Anyway I called the co that built your manifold snd was quoted $850 + shipping so i decided to build my own.
What ive decided to try is a "Grove Reducing & Relief Small Volume Regulator"
Spec's are...
- Max inlet: 3000
- Range out: 5/60 psi
- Serial: L25728
- 1/4" NPT ports in & out
Im thinking 60 psi is enough feed press, what you guys think?
If my build had any influence on you building yours...I will be a heckuva lot happier when yours is cranking out the firewood! I don't know her, but, I don't your wife to be mad at me!
I would think 60 psi would work. But, if your challenge is being able to control the speed of the cut/saw cylinder, I see this as a function of flow. With your one control function, if you are cutting small diameter stuff, the saw cylinder can go fast and it will need to slow down on larger diameter stuff. Not fully understanding your set up using pressure versus flow, would you be able to adjust the pressure? Just wondering if being able to increase the pressure would equate to speed on the cut?
blackfoot, I think with no back pressure the limit is the flow. once the bar is against the log, and rotation of the bar is limited, a pressure relief will keep the bar from pushing too hard. then the flow does not matter cause it only needs to fill the tiny space in the cylinder as the bar moves forward. you almost need less bar pressure in the center of the log. Often with a sharp chain, as you all know, just the weight of the saw is enough. At a flow of 2 gpm in a 1 inch cylinder, the forward movement of the rod is 50 feet per minute. or 10 inches per second.
steve, can you post a close up pic of your bar and cylinder set up? I know you won't want your bar and chain to slam into the log. I assume your cylinder is pushing and not pulling to actuate the bar movement. I have seen it done both ways. volume of oil on the back stroke is 3.5 cubic inches, or 0.015 gallons, and a rod speed of 66 feet per minute or 13 inches per second no load. I think after the priority splitter you need a fine variable flow regulator to slow movement of the bar outside the wood, and then a pressure relief to keep the bar from stalling in the log.
Quote from: stevea303 on March 04, 2019, 03:16:07 PM
Hedgerow,
I have that same 1/4" needle valve inline just before my cylinder so i can easily adjust feed rate also, however i have a small 1" cylinder with 1/2" rod/6" stroke for the saw feed. My adjustment is veryyyyy sensitive.
I actually used a sequence valve into a priority valve that splits 2 gal to feed cyl and 21-22 to saw motor. The adjustment on the priority valve is the one that is extremely sensitive. Im talkin 1/20th of a turn and it goes from barely moving to trying to chop the log like its an axe.
Time for a bigger saw cylinder? 🤔 Mine had a 2 1/2 x 12 inch cylinder and only 15 gpm at 1500 psi for the saw motor, clamp and cylinder. With the needle valve and that cylinder it could go from too fast/kill the engine to being able to stop the cut at anytime. Just my opinion, but being able to slow or even stopping the cut is crucial. On mine, I could stop the saw cylinder from extending but the saw motor stayed engaged making restarting the cut easy. If the splitter has a two stage pump it is handy to accurately control the speed of the cut.
I can't explain why...but the flow control for the saw cylinder worked much better on the return side than the pressure side.
Doc,
Here ya go. Wet saw dust coverin everything but ya get the jist.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53925/7568DEAD-2ECB-4F87-8095-4C65B612BCEF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1551801934)
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Blackfoot,
Funny you mention bigger cylinder, I just bought a 3" bore 6" stroke to try just that thinking more fluid to fill cylinder will slow things down a bit.
3 inch cylinder x 6" is 42 cubic inches or 0.18 gallons. 5.5 feet per minute. or 1" per second. your force will increase by a factor of 9. nice pic. looks like a good view of the saw on and off valve. wanting to see the bar vs push cylinder with attachment points. a longer push arm coming out from the bar pivot point will slow the rotation and shorten the arc. and increase force. as you post you can rotate the pics. looking very good and I hope you solve your bar rotation speed and pressure soon and easily.
That sounds way "more better'r"
That flow sounds more manageable with my quarter inch needle valve
I see your bar cylinder and it looks good. the effective torque arm is from the center pivot of the bar to the attachment of the end of the roc. another shot straight on from the back would help but I do not see any thing to change. maybe that shot fully extended and closed. In the arc you have set up, does the rod fully retract and extend. i.e. using full range of cylinder to get the arc you want?
Yes I use 100% of the stroke of the Cylinder, It took several mock ups to get it But I *DanG near think it's perfect
Quote from: stevea303 on March 04, 2019, 03:16:07 PM
Hedgerow,
I have that same 1/4" needle valve inline just before my cylinder so i can easily adjust feed rate also, however i have a small 1" cylinder with 1/2" rod/6" stroke for the saw feed. My adjustment is veryyyyy sensitive.
I actually used a sequence valve into a priority valve that splits 2 gal to feed cyl and 21-22 to saw motor. The adjustment on the priority valve is the one that is extremely sensitive. Im talkin 1/20th of a turn and it goes from barely moving to trying to chop the log like its an axe.
Steve on mind I run a 1 1/2 inch 3/4 inch rod 16 inch stroke cylinder and I played with the arm length on the saw for a while. I don't like priority valves as over the years I have seen a lot of trouble with them. You want all the oil you can get to that saw motor. I would run the saw motor on one pump have another for the conveyor, clamp, saw cylinder wedge and a third pump for the splitter. I would turn the saw cylinder over before I got too far into this to keep the saw dust out of the rod end of the cylinder I ruined the first cylinder I had that way next one I turned over to keep the saw dust out. In your picture I don't see the relief valve for the saw cylinder on mind I am running a spool valve to control the saw cylinder movement. I came out of the spool valve threw the flow control valve down to the relief valve and then into the extend port on the saw cylinder. The flow control is mostly a speed control the relief is what is going to control the down pressure on the saw bar. It gets a little tricky to get it right. You need to get some gauges installed on the system so you can see what psi the saw motor is running in the cut and what psi is on the down pressure on the saw cylinder. I can't remember what mine runs at.
Quote from: stevea303 on March 05, 2019, 07:24:00 AM
Blackfoot,
Funny you mention bigger cylinder, I just bought a 3" bore 6" stroke to try just that thinking more fluid to fill cylinder will slow things down a bit.
That should do the trick...the needle valve won't be quite as touchy as with the previous cylinder! I'm just guessing that it will be about 3 times less touchy.😁
Saw cut with original 1" cylinder...
😴 💤
https://youtu.be/4keQvAx8fIU (https://youtu.be/4keQvAx8fIU)
I'm also swapping out the sprockets on the log infeed, that almost forces you to take a nap between cuts which I'm normally fine with but...
nice to see it cut wood
Also changed my wedge design to a box wedge instead. I built a box wedge for my small towable splitter and it works so much nicer. Nice square 4x4 splits and even creates a nice pile of kindling to boot. Wood stacks nicer also.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53925/A754A7F5-0599-451A-BAE8-C2AD023268AA.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1551888576)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53925/1323B08E-BC58-4A8D-BDC1-0CACC82834E4.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1551888582)
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I rarely use my multi wedge due to mulberry and elm being hard to push through. I like your wedge, and might suggest to raise the back of the first wedge to leave more room under it and kick the upper part of the log up to the second wedge. When do you plan to open up the plant to build these. lol . you really crank out fab. Your video was great and looks like you tuned down your 1" cylinder and made it work. would be nice to be able to easily turn things up and down on the "fly". I also try to make square or rectangle wood, It stacks good and is easier to fully load the stove for overnight ect. what is the slot in your bed for?
Doc,
Both top plates are kicked up 1/4" in rear and each vertical plate is kicked out 1/4" in the rear from the previous plate to prevent binding. Center wedge is double bevel where as the rest are single bevel.
Sorry I did not see that in the pic. thanks for sharing so much and letting us old guys live through you vicariously. how did you slow the angular velocity generated by the small cylinder? the saw seems to have plenty of power. Looks fantastic!!!
Yep, nice to see it cut- now let's speed things up!😁
I didn't change anything on the saw yet, my goal is to have it feed faster into the cut until it hits resistance then slow down to a proper cut speed without binding.
so if you bump up the flow to the cylinder, and then have a pressure bypass, that will offload pressure and allow adjustment. Thanks for the video.
Doc, If I'm understanding correctly how this valve (Grove Reducing & Relief Small Volume Regulator) works it will operate much like a pressure relief valve but not create the heat associated with typical relief valves. When a relief valve is constantly having to "relieve" itself I'm told that can build significant unwanted heat. It supposed to be delivered today so I will be hooking it up this weekend and giving it a test run.
Will post results.
sounds good, it seemed to go slow in the video so thought you had done something different already. carry on!
Steve looking forward to see what this regulator is. When I built my saw I looked at a lot of different ways to control the speed and pressure on the bar using hyd. Didn't ever find anyone in the hyd world that could help me set up a manifold set up like Danzco uses on there saw to control it all. They are not selling that manifold if your not buying a saw and I understand he has spent a lot of time and money getting it to work. Yes pushing oil by a relief will cause some oil heating. On these saws the amount of oil at a low pressure you are pushing past the relief when you are cutting the log is so small I have never had a issue with heating the oil. If I was building this saw today I would control the movement of the bar with compress air instead of hyd. A air cylinder is easier to control and more forgiving. I just didn't want to add a air compressor to the processor when I was building it. I could have used the air to control the movement of the saw and used air to push the bar oil to the saw instead of using a 12 V pump.
Steve, I'm going to throw you a curveball. You have a one lever control that controls the saw motor, clamp and saw cylinder. If you also have a readily accessable flow control for the saw cylinder (speed of cut control) I would suggest that the amount of pressure exerted on the bar is irrelevant to a degree with your configuration.
If you engage the main control lever the clamp should be clamping and the chain should be spinning before the chain touches the log. If your cut speed is too fast, it will let you know! Either the chain will slow down (audible) stop (obvious) or there will be an evident/ audible drag on the hydraulics. If the saw cylinder is extending too quickly, you would have two lines of defense to prevent a bent saw bar-- the main control lever in one hand and the flow control in the other.
Have you run a cut yet where the saw cylinder was extending too quickly? If so, what happened?
steve, the larger 3 inch cylinder would have 9 times the force since the surface area goes up by the square of the radius. If you can regulate the speed of the smaller cylinder, the force will be limited by the size of the piston. The force is further reduced by the torque arm that is about 1/4 or 1/5 the length of the bar, further reducing the effective force. remember the torque arm is an artificial strait line drawn from pivot point to pivot point, not the actual steel you weld. it changes as the bar rotates. The way you have it, rotates faster in the beginning, and slower, but with more force in the cut. perfect.
Steve
Did you get the Grove valve installed? Any more up dates on the processor build?
Nice build, I'm very impressed with the quality of your craftsmanship.
I'm not telling anyone what to do, but your making things a whole lot more complicated than they need to be all by trying to eliminate a couple simple functions.
I'd have recommended you bought the saw components yourself separately and put it together yourself and run each function with its own valve, had a pressure gauge on each valve and knew what each function was doing at all times, and would end up being far faster and cheaper than the way your going to do things.
I run a roller clamp setup, so that pressure needs to be independent of the saw and bar function.
I run a separate valve for the bar down feed with its own pressure gauge so I know what force is being exerted on the bar, have two needle valves on it, one for down speed and the other for up speed and can adjust them, but seldom do with the needle valves, I'd rather do it with the lever itself.
I run a separate valve to control the saw motor and also have a gauge on that to know how close to stall we are running it, rather than rely on experience or feel to know, also have a pressure gauge on the motor return line to make sure we never have any back pressure on the saw motor ever. The way your doing it if I recall correctly is the bar feed is controlled through the saw motor, so it senses the pressure spikes on the motor and slows the bar feed and vice versa to prevent the motor from stalling, sounds really simple and nice, but takes the human factor out of the equation, meaning it makes it hard to bump up the saw motor pressure, or the pressure on the bar feed by the use of the valve handle for a few logs or cuts as needed and if I recall also takes the bar lift pressure off, meaning if you were to stall the bar, you can't shut the motor off and use full force to lift the bar out of the cut, or if you pinch the bar, you can't monitor how much force your putting on it with the valve, same goes for the clamp, once its adjusted, its the same for each time it clamps.
The way we do it is, for large logs, we use much lower pressure on the hold down and for smaller logs much more pressure, each time its done with the handle on the valve rather than preset, which saves a lot of issues with pinched bars or logs that move around on the last cut or two on each log.
I have everything separate and love it that way, its far faster than running the saw motor, bar feed and clamp all in one and is much easier to adjust each function on its own.
I monitor everything from the pressure gauges and can adjust things for each log just by looking at the gauges as I saw, so much nicer and simpler than those sequencing/priority valves.
If it were me, I'd run the clamp off a separate valve and the bar feed and saw motor together now that you spent the money on the simple saw, I'd also install some gauges for each circuit to know whats going on and I'd really have to study the hydraulics again on that valve setup to remember how it worked, its been a few years since I looked at them, but I'd still want pressure monitoring on each function to know for sure what's going on, have the gauges all in a row and nice and handy to see and read and to monitor, but do as you wish.
stevea303, I would really like to see some updates on this machine! Drumroll please.....smiley_trap_drummer.
How is it working out?
jmur1