When I delivered a load to a customer today, they hit me up for something I normally don't do. Matter of fact I have never done it. Cut to an exact length. They want me to cut full 2 x 8s to 14 feet and a quarter of an inch (14' 0 1/4). They buy a lot of wood and I would hate to loose their business, but that is a pain. Normally I just drag back 5 or 6 at a time and kick them off my roller tables onto racks and pick them up with the forks an load onto my trailer .... very little actual handling. This is going to mean putting them on a chop saw and cutting one end then measuring and then cutting the other end. How much would you charge extra per board?
If I charge too little on these first ones it will make it harder to charge more latter.
It don't take that much time, but I can feel the difference after cutting this afternoon.
Any thoughts or feedback is appreciated. Banjo
Banjo,
Your post indicates measuring. I would eliminate that step by setting up a jig or stop for the 14'-0 1/4" length if you haven't already. If they are a good customer then they will understand that their request requires extra handling and additional time. Consider how much it would cost them to handle and cut each 2 x 8 to length and charge accordingly.
How many boards? Both on this run and future? That would dictate how I would go about doing it, and how much I would charge. Then I might invest in a jump saw or similar.
Completely agree on the jump saw idea, they could roll off the mill, through the saw and then onto wherever. Never have to lift them, no measuring, and fast.
We have length stops on the rollers of one of the radial arms... Literally a block of wood on a hinge so it can swing out the way.
Price list says we charge 8% extra for CTL but that's plus or minus nothing.
Reality is that we mostly do nominal +2" for free... It looks a whole lot more professional if the ends of your packs are even and square, but there might be some discrepancy in length at that.
I have 26 of the 14 footers to cut and 50 of a different length somewhere around 9 feet to do. Banjo
So they want 14' 0-1/4". If its soft wood, then you round up to the next 2' increment and charge them for a 16', right? Same thing for the 9' something? Charge them for 10' and you might get two out of a 18' something board? How's that work - for the 14' that would be a 14% premium (bumping up to 16').
Doing it for an hourly rate takes the guesswork out of it.
It may be the reason the customer is asking you to do it is because they find it a PITA to do.
And want to pay to have it done. Have you asked your customer what he thinks it is worth to cut to length?
This is what I call an R&D job. Hard to tell how much time it will take until you do it.
Do the job, see how much time it takes and figure a fee for your time.
Let your customer know why you are charging what you are charging. See if they think it is reasonable.
Now you will know if you will do more in the future.
Whichever technique you decide, I would definitely let them know the price is based on a trial period and may be subject to change.
I would have to probably double the price.
The place I would have to take them to CTL is 1/2 mile from my mill.
But that is just me.
I try to mill a log that is a foot or two longer than what a customer wants and charge him for the length he specified. he does his own measuring, squaring and trimming. I concentrate on straight, uniform lumber.
I know one forum member, I won't mention his name because I don't want to get head butted, who cuts lots of 8'2" I think he said it was. He has 2 chop saws set up and bolted down to cut to that exact spacing and just throws the board across both and whacks the ends off square.
I would suggest charging a % premium for the extra work. Check your time to do it and decide. Maybe 5%, 10% or maybe 20%. I like the idea of telling him it is a temporary price and subject to change in the future to protect yourself.
I find the 1/4" extra an odd request. I think most finished lumber at the box stores add 1" of trim.
Waking up this morning, after handling some of those heavy suckers yesterday lets me know there will definitely be some sort of surcharge in addition to the extra time. I am thinking about 10% extra at least and then tell them that is just to see how things go as the WV Sawmiller suggested.
I too normally just concentrate on cutting nice lumber, but I don't want to back out of something without even giving it a try either.
I will let them know this is just a trial to see how things go. I think it is as Cedarman said that it is a PITA for them to cut so they want someone else to do it. There is another slight facet to this as well.... If I make a miss cut and get one too short its on me instead of them. It could be they have someone that can't read a tape.
I can see how it could be reasoned to round the length up, but on the 14 foot and a quarter of an inch, that extra amount is always going to be there anyway. I would rather they know that it is because of the extra time and work for the extra cost. Now on the other boards they have to be 8 foot 11 inches and 7/8... how about that for an off the wall measurement. Pricing that as a 10 footer should not raise any eyebrows.
WDH if I charged by the hour on these first ones, it would probably be the last. :D
I have a couple of radial arm saws that are not set up anywhere, I guess one of those could be set up along inbetween a couple of the roller tables. Would you think that would be better than a miter saw. The radial arm could be turned on a 90 and gotten out of the way mostly when I didn't need it.
I am fixing to go cut up some wood. Glad I am on top of a hill with all this rain. We will probably need some of this about July or August. Banjo
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on February 22, 2019, 08:47:57 AMI find the 1/4" extra an odd request. I think most finished lumber at the box stores add 1" of trim.
Well, out here, the margin is getting shorter. I remember putting up a fence 30 years ago on our ranch. Three rail 2x6. If I messed up on a post (8' centers), I had 1" to 1-1/4" to play with. A couple months ago I was helping my nephew put up a shed with 16' 2x8 rafters. They were all within 1/4"! :o No fudge factor allowed on those! You'd have to cut an awful lot of boards out of a really tall tree to have those 1" trims add up to a 8' board :D
Ditto WDH, hourly rate!
I'm envisioning a skill saw on one end then a chop saw on the other. The skill saw cuts one end square then the chop saw (with a stop for length) cuts the length. If done right, the cutting is in the flow of boards as they come off the mill. It could be done with "roller skate" type conveyors. It is more labor no matter how you set it up. Twenty five percent mark up ought to cover the costs. I'd have to run it a little while to know.
I took them a partial load today as I had agreed to yesterday so they could get an order out. What I did was figured the price per board foot as I had with other 2 x 8 s that they had bought and added $3.00 extra per board. They didn't bat an eye. I got out my old worm drive makita saw .... worked a lot better than using the miter saw.
I was told that this would be the only contract that they would need the cut to length on and it would not effect the other lumber they got from me, but he alluded to the fact that this was going to be a pretty big amount and that I might need to put a saw in line to help.
Here is what I have set up. Kinda crude, but it works for me. I have three of those in a row. The slabs go on that one that is right behind the mill. Then I have a space of a couple feet, then station #2 .... followed by station #3. If I am cutting short stuff, that gives me a place for my slabs and 2 places to hold produce untill I get enough to load. I could easily station a saw right after my slab station. If I set it up just a tiny bit lower that the rollers, I could cut out the lifting, but I don't see how I could install stops so I don't have to measure without that impeding the path of the boards that will need to roll on down the line to go on the rack after they are cut.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18028/100_0562_Roller_Table.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1235359958)
When I am cutting long stuff, I can move the racks closer together or widen them out to accommodate what ever I am cutting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18028/20180423_113229.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1524575877)
The idea of having two saws bolted down would be ok, if I was only dealing with one produce, but don't know about doing that with this set up. Thanks for the ideas .... Banjo
The main docker line here has a pop up saw, and paint markings for length, which is good enough for just regular keep them all the same +/- ΒΌ" kind of work. Thing being with the pop up saw that theres no real guarantee that the board is 100% square to the saw anyway, but its quick and efficient and does the job it has to do.
The CTL stuff goes to my original docking line with a radial arm saw on it which is now in the drymill. As mentioned, we have blocks on hinges for the lengths we're doing all the time as CTL. For lengths other than that we have a stop that can be positioned across the line as required and held in place with a couple of G clamps: simple and effective so long as you arent banging big lumps of wood into it at speed. The swinging blocks I just tacked a door hinge in roughly the right place then screwed a block of hardwood too it at the right length.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/32746/IMG_20190222_142200.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1550889816)
Again... simple but effective.
Thanks longtime lurker, a picture is in deed worth a thousand words. I read where you posted about the hinge earlier, but it just didn't click. That will work. Banjo
The problem is it's something you're not set up to do, and something you don't want to do. Your specialty is milling. You may add additional services like jointing, ripping, planing. I've not heard of sawyers cutting finished material to exacting lengths.
Additionally, What tolerance range did the customer specify? There's always a tolerance. Tight tolerances mean more cost because risk goes up. Sufficed to say, this is clearly something you don't want to do. Maybe if you make the additional cost high enough, it will dissuade them? But heaven forbid if they accept it. Just tell them that you are not set up to do that. Your focus is producing good lumber. You don't want to be in the business of being their contractor cutting lumber to length. You don't want that risk, especially if the tolerances are tight.
They have three choices, pay a lot more for that inconvenient service, go to someone else who will agree to do that service, or keep buying your lumber at a good price not CTL. They are more than likely going to stick to buying as is, or pay you well for that very specialized service with the risk. If they go somewhere else, so be it. You cannot stop that. And you should NOT eat the true cost of such a service just to keep them. It's not worth it. You will end up putting in more work and making less money for the work.
mmm, see I'd say that the ability to cut a board across the grain is as important as the ability to cut one with it. You mill, you're going to get lumber with faults in it that need docking out, or that can go up a grade or two with a consequent value increase because you shortened them a foot or two, or that end split during drying.
From that point if your timber is going down rollers its not a giant step fitting something like a radial arm saw which are usually available pretty cheap second hand. Electric is nice but my first one I got out of a junk pile and put a 5HP gas motor on because I had no power in that shed. Compared with using a chainsaw or hand held circular like I had been before that it was a huge upgrade.
From there its but a tiny step to being able to CTL, and its pretty easy money really.... we charge 8% for clamping a stop across the rollers at the right length and pulling the saw across twice.
I'd also say that blowing a good repeat customer because you didnt want to cut a few boards to length isn't sound business: you can kill the cow but once but you can milk it every day. And being known as the guy that will go the extra distance (at a cost) doesnt hurt either.
And it's also about professionalism... when packs of lumber leave this place they are presented to market to the same standard as the biggest mills have (and mostly better) When people walk past a pack of lumber they can see the top (maybe) and a side and the ends, and nice square even ends might not make the boards better but ragged looking ends dont send the message I wish to send either: we're small, but small meaning boutique not backyard.
I'm somewhat OCD, but I think in this case it has served me well. :D
Lumber shrinks very little lengthwise when it dries, but it does just a little. A .1% is over an 1/8". .1% is 1/1000.
Every order that we get for cut to length has a tolerance of say +1/16", -1/16" or -0, +1/8". but these are on 2 or 3' pieces of dried lumber.
Builder's want cut to length material and will order it that way.
It's very commonplace around my area.
Folks will pay the up charge.
This lumber won't stay there long enough to shrink much, so I am not worried about that causing problems. I don't see a problem with tolerance either.
I am going to follow through on this and put a radial arm in my line of rollers. I have two in storage that I am not using anyway. I will fabricate a metal rack for one so that it can set on the concrete between my first and second table. I will build this ridged enough so that it can be moved out of the way and back into storage when not needed.
Brad-bb, I just don't want to take a chance on losing this customer for this reason. They buy boards that I would have a hard time moving otherwise. I have a little over 100 acres of mostly timber, there is some fenced for our horses, but most is forest. They buy a lot of 8 foot hardwood. I have plenty that needs cutting. I seclect cut what is past its prime, dying or lightening struck, so I am doing a little TSI along the way. You can get an 8 footer out of crooked logs or ones with sweep . If you tried to sell a log of any length you would get docked so hard it would be nearly worthless.
This order is for pine. According to the latest market report for NE Mississippi, pine saw logs averaged less than 20 dollars Aton stumpage. Figuring 6 ton to the thousand, that comes to $120.00 a thousand. With my tractor and winch an my trailers I can get a whole lot more than I could ever sell on the open market for.
The low price in this area is due to so many mills closing. The farther south you go the price goes up some. Check out the Mississippi Timber Price Report as put out by Mississippi State University Extension.
Got to go...wife wants to go shopping 😏
I went up in the barn loft and got down one of my radial arms that were in storage. This one I bought from Deb's dad when he shut down his hobby wood shop. I paid $50.00 for it and I didn't even really want it, but it was too good a deal to pass on. The main thing I was whining about was the fact that I would have to fab up a stand for it. Then I remembered a pile of small supports that was given to me by my cousin a good while ago. I was getting some items from him and he insisted that I take a little pile of legs that were laying around. I told him I didn't have a need for them, but he said in a born southern, but lived in Chicago most of his life drawl ... "take em your gona need em one day, and besides if they stay here they will just get run over or sold for scrap. He died on us about 2 years ago. I sure do miss him.
I found two in the pile that worked perfect. Adjustable height and all.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18028/20190227_121510.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1551403798)
It took all of about 30 minutes to get them bolted to the bottom of the saw. I took some plywood and made a table for it. Bolted the first sheet to the saw and glued and clamped the second piece to the top. Got it setting in between my first and second roller table.
My father in law had it running on 110, and I changed that to 220. Made a big difference. It would be nice to have a bigger saw, but that one does ok for what it is. I put a 60 tooth carbide blade on it as well. I put inserts in the concrete floor, so if I want to take it out of the line there won't be a trip hazard.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18028/20190228_175021.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1551403897)
There is the load ready to be delivered in the morning. Banjo
Interesting thread. I find accurate trimming to be a bit of a pain as well but once I trimmed about 500 pieces of 1x6x6 for a very elderly woman who was building her own fence and didn't have anything more than a handsaw and a hammer. I did it no charge and for the 4-5 days it took her to pick up her order, I could have sold it 20 times. Something about a nice stack of accurately trimmed boards that is appealing to slot of customers. I plan on eventually building some sort of contraption to trim fast and accurate.
Quote from: Banjo picker on February 28, 2019, 09:23:34 PMMy father in law had it running on 110, and I changed that to 220
Can you explain a bit more on this. Is it a multi-tap motor or did you do something outside of the box?
Southside there is a small plate on top of this motor that comes off. Held on by a screw. Had to blow out all the dust that had accumulated over the years. There are a couple blade connectors and information as to where to hook them to have either 110 or 220. All I had to do was move two connectors to different blades.
When I Had it running like it was, on 110 it would take a few seconds to get up to speed, now on 220 it's instant gratification.
I don't have a clue as to how old this saw is, the newer ones may not have this set up. Banjo
Percy, I am not as nice as you, cause I charged them extra to cut them, and if they want anything bigger than a 2x8.... it will be even more. Banjo
Quote from: Banjo picker on March 01, 2019, 08:31:15 AM
Percy, I am not as nice as you, cause I charged them extra to cut them, and if they want anything bigger than a 2x8.... it will be even more. Banjo
The stack on your trailer is nice ;D
Quote from: Banjo picker on March 01, 2019, 08:26:25 AM
Southside there is a small plate on top of this motor that comes off. Held on by a screw. Had to blow out all the dust that had accumulated over the years. There are a couple blade connectors and information as to where to hook them to have either 110 or 220. All I had to do was move two connectors to different blades.
When I Had it running like it was, on 110 it would take a few seconds to get up to speed, now on 220 it's instant gratification.
I don't have a clue as to how old this saw is, the newer ones may not have this set up. Banjo
All of Gramps old Delta Rockwell tools have this same capability. Just an extra badge on the motor that shows the two wiring options. They're all set up to run on 110 now but I'll be changing them to 220 when I move them to my shop. Supposed to run a lot more efficient as well I believe.