Here is my situation. I have 10 acres of which I have a 500' "forest" road that is suitable for my ATV. So this gives me access to the upper 1/4 of my property. I've used my 2wd tundra on it but it is very steep in a couple places and I had to get a running start to make it back up. I have some logs I'd like to mill up and was contemplating bringing my mill down to them, somehow. And then just have to haul timbers and lumber back up. Far from ideal. I have a big log arch but neither my ATV or my truck are up to the task of getting it back up the hill loaded.
Reading back over this I think I've about convinced my self I need to do something different. Perusing CraigsList, I came across this:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Yarder_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1551734971)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Yarder_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1551734971)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Yarder_3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1551735634)
Its described as a small yarder / tall winch. :D
Looks like a Wisconsin engine and is supposed to have 750' of 1/2" line. My understanding of a yarder is there is a high line that is used to lift the logs up as you winch, correct? My forest road is all windy so if I got this, I'd have to clear a straight shot down to the lower area. This would also allow me to get some trees from the lowest most section of my property, another bonus.
I see a multi-pulley block on the top of the mast but what other items should there be with this? I see some heavy cables with hooks to presumably tie it back to a big tree?
I suppose it would be good to use as a zip line! :o
Before I say what they are asking, what would you say its worth, assuming complete, running and the cable is good?
I have no experience with yarders but if you do not either, it could be a man killer! If you have a windy road, can you get a regular winch and do 100 feet at a time, like from a tractor or your truck? I assume it is a few thousand dollars. so I guess it depends on if the wood from your property will pay for it and more. and how many logs you have to move.
can you move the logs to the bottom of the hill with the arch, winch them up the hill on the arch and then hook on and move them to the mill? might need a wheel to keep the tongue of the arch from digging in.
You can google and watch old episodes of ax men, and of course the drama was played up, but sounds like it can be dangerous.
Quote from: doc henderson on March 04, 2019, 04:51:39 PM
I have no experience with yarders but if you do not either, it could be a man killer! If you have a windy road, can you get a regular winch and do 100 feet at a time, like from a tractor or your truck? I assume it is a few thousand dollars. so I guess it depends on if the wood from your property will pay for it and more. and how many logs you have to move.
can you move the logs to the bottom of the hill with the arch, winch them up the hill on the arch and then hook on and move them to the mill? might need a wheel to keep the tongue of the arch from digging in.
I realize the potential for it to go way south and will take the necessary precautions. I do have an acquaintance who's family was in logging. I'll probably hit him up as well. I'm looking at a couple dozen trees with logs (30?) being in the 30' range. I was thinking the highline type of hauling would be easier/faster/cleaner then a regular winch (which I don't have). What is available to move with the arch is a small portion. Most of the trees are on steep ground/side hill. I've learned to fell them up hill so I don't destroy the wood - I need a way to pull them down or to one side.
(he's asking $1,000)
what do you currently pull your arch with? the arch will keep them out of the dirt. could make a sled for the tail end. If you want to use your curvy road instead of a straight shot clearing, you may want to buck them to length to help get around the bend. From the looks of the yarder, it may be prone to refurbish and maint. issues or in other words, unforeseen cost. If you are just looking for an adventure, it looks like fun! If you got a winch for your truck you could tow the arch to the base of the steep hill, unhook and drive to the top, then winch the arch and logs to the top, then tow home. if I am understanding you topographical description.
Looking back, I think you need a 4 wheel drive, 1 ton dually, and a ranch hand bumper with a 2 inch receiver built in. That is what I have with fleet wiring to front and back, with a cheap 12k winch from HF on a 2 inch receiver mount. I can tow or use winch from front or back of truck. in 4 wheel drive low it is like a tractor, and the weight allows pulling qhite a load, and can also fasten to a tree from other end when winching. Wish I lived closer, this sounds like a fun challenge.
It's really cute! If it weren't on the left coast, I'd ask to rent it from you for a month. We could have some fun with that. ;D ;D ;D
I would put a $700 offer in on it.
Set it up and run it. I like the idea.
Quote from: doc henderson on March 04, 2019, 05:49:06 PM
Looking back, I think you need a 4 wheel drive, 1 ton dually, and a ranch hand bumper with a 2 inch receiver built in. That is what I have with fleet wiring to front and back, with a cheap 12k winch from HF on a 2 inch receiver mount. I can tow or use winch from front or back of truck. in 4 wheel drive low it is like a tractor, and the weight allows pulling quite a load, and can also fasten to a tree from other end when winching. Wish I lived closer, this sounds like a fun challenge.
Yeah, if wishes were fishes, or something like that. I'm just building my cabin, not logging for profit. Just trying to use my trees before I just have to drop them because of fire risk. No monies in the budget for such a nice toy. And like I said, no winch at the moment. I was thinking of making a gas powered winch like KBietz did - but this is already done, if it works still.
So far, I've used my arch in conjunction with my SkyTrak. I chain up big logs to the arch (too long or too heavy for the SkyTrak alone - 9k lift), use a set of log tongs on the other end and "drive" the arch home 1/2 to 1 mile. Anything smaller and on the main road, I use the SkyTrak to load my little flatbed and tow that with the Tundra.
There's a chunk of metal on this yarder but I'm thinking I could haul it around and stage it with my ATV (660 lb unit, 550cc).
Quote from: Bruno of NH on March 04, 2019, 06:04:57 PM
I would put a $700 offer in on it.
Set it up and run it. I like the idea.
I sent them an email with a list of questions. It's about an hour drive from me and the tires need to be roadworthy for me to get it home. My flatbed is under 10' of snow at the moment and an hour in the other direction.
I was trying to think of safe ways that might cost less money, but if you get the thing and it works, you can prob sell it for what you have in it and get the use for free. And a few stories and pics to share with the rest of us!
Hi ljohnsaw,
From what I see you'll need a mainline and some type of carriage/pulley block to get the logs off the ground.
The unit pictured looks like a skidding winch only. Is there a second line to work with?
I don't think I'd try to pull 30"x30' logs on a 1/2" skyline
D
dgdrls,
Thanks for the insight. I am waiting on a response. If you look at the last picture, there looks like there is a spool in-line with the crank shaft of the engine. I was thinking that might be main line? Don't know. I'm ok with just skidding, might use my arch to keep the end up and move easier or a plastic barrel as a sled but a skyline would be sweet. Kind of thought about using self-releasing snatch blocks up high to help lift and steer it up the road.
Seems like I've seen one of these posted before. Looks like a good start.
Here is the one I remember:
Winch ideas in Forestry and Logging (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=92299.0)
There is a video of it working. Remember to work safe when building or working on machines.
Thanks for resurrecting that. I remembered watching that and wishing... Now if only this guy would respond to my email!
Is there any helicopter logging in your area, where your job could be included with another larger job within a few minutes flying time?
Work out the weight of each log etc
Still big skidders in california?
848L John Deer - YouTube (https://youtu.be/N6A5VVGJxb4)
Pulling the logs from the hollow with ground based machinery.
Probably more realistic to hire a skidder or dozer (even a reasonable size ag tractor) to pull the logs out of the hollow? or use a contractor with skidder/ dozer/ shovel etc depending on cost.
X# number of logs per turn, distance of turn, average time of turn etc work out estimated time of hire x cost per hour of hire plus additional costs of hire etc = total cost of hire.
Hire rubber tired loader/ excavator with grapple if logs are bigger than what a hired skid steer with forks can handle to load logs on mill.
If leaving the logs in the hollow.
Depending on how big the mill is, any good neighbour's 4x4 tractors to pull the Tundra with the mill attached back out of the hollow, once the logs are milled? or just pull mill in and out with tractor with hitch etc.
Interesting, My understanding of logging with a yarder that lifts the logs, involves spar trees and quite a bit of riging, not sure it would be worth it for 30 trees.
That rig may well just winch them out for you, if you can't cut a straight path, some snatch blocks would work to wind the log up your existing road.
With a good 1/2 inch cable you could use it as a skyline if you could get it high enough that it did not have to be bowstring tight (deflection) and put a rider block on it. attach a choker to the block, and raise/tighten or slack/lower the skyline to provide lift to get the end of the log off the ground for skidding. a second drum with cable would be good for a skidding line, or if the ground is not to steep your sky trac could pull it to your landing area. Or you just pull the line up the hill with your ATV and ground skid to your landing but then will need to clean or build a debarker.
Here is a short video of my "forest road". I start out on my leach field. This is on a shelf about half way down my property but where I will be retrieving a number of large aspen and cedars and maybe a few pine. It is about 1 acre of flat, VERY heavily wooded. At the 45 second mark is where I start up the hill that the logs would need to travel.
ATV trail (http://youtu.be/5oe2CoByDY0)
Narrow width skidder with already scuffed tires. (might use and excavator to pick up a few rocks - split a few rocks using geobreak or dexpan etc - expanding grout if the area is still dry and the rocks are not sacred to 1st peoples etc.
Might cut the logs down to half length prior to hauling, depending how long they are.
The skytrak might be useful if still around to sort with.
From what I saw that's pretty flat nothing there for lift of the cable would be an issue without making lift to start with. Looks like pretty nice gentle cat ground, does anyone around there rent cats with an arch and winch?
I've used a fair amount of dexpan, it takes a large Hilti drill at a minimum ~$1500, the dexpan and a young buck to run the Hilti is not a bad idea. I ran it horizontal up in a workbasket all afternoon yesterday while thinking, this is a young man's tool :D.
The bitterroot yarder info might give you some ideas on how to rig that thing if you go that route;
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm83512305/ (https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm83512305/)
can you take a measure you steep part in % or ratio. this doesn't look bad on video, but maybe we are not getting the big picture. the video is helpful. nice piece of heaven you got there.
The video does NOT do the hill justice :-\ At the start of the climb, there is a 30-40' section that is close to 45° - VERY steep. That levels off to about 25° for a good bit. Then the hill is going on around 15°. The design spec on my SkyTrak say no more than 12° front to back and 22° side to side. I've exceeded that a bit and its a bit unnerving to feel that tilt on a 25k pound machine - especially when it begins to side slip :o
is your telehandler 4 wheel drive? I agree with a prev. post that you could manage the steepest part of the hill in other ways. the reason I had suggested a winch is it could be used for other things. might even mount to the back of the skytrak fork area/guard and use it like that small yarder. 12,000 pound winch HF on sale for less than 300$ and rated best value by 4 wheel mag. do you need most of your logs full length? can you post a google earth view without location info. sounds like you would have to remove a lot of trees to get a strait line to the top. that would certainly change the look of you property, kinds like a chair lift on a mountain at a ski resort. you need a long trailer you can steer the front and back like the wind turbine blade trailers! :laugh:
To run a skyline you need two drums - that machine only has one. Its rigged for yarding direct with a bit of lift from the tower. Once you get 50' or so from the machine, the lift will be negligible. That cable looks light for ground leading big logs even if they are short. With ground lead, every boulder and stump will be a hangup point. Looks more like a winch system for a firewood cutter. $1k seems spendy for what it is.
Looking at it again I'd say the angle iron on that is too small to withstand much stress. Like I said its probably a firewood cutter winch. A 16" diameter log would likely max it out.
ljohn, really what you want is a local with a skidder or small dozer. For the price of that winch, the right machine could sort out your access trail and get your logs in a day. Yarding logs on steep slopes is not for the faint of heart or the inexperienced, and sometimes its best to pay for it. Of course availability and timing are the rub now as you are buried in snow, and come summer everyone will be busy. Still now would be the time to start looking for someone local as moving a machine from out of the area would not make sense for a small job like this. Calfire might take an interest at what you are doing if you hire someone to do the work. Personal use is one thing, hiring someone could elevate it to commercial - depends on the inspector and how many trees you are taking. Sometimes don't ask don't tell works best; other times the hypothetical neighbor with a few trees to cut needs some advice works. In any case, Dept of Fish and Wildlife as well as Water Quality might want to get involved as well. No creeks or nests makes it easier. How do your neighbors feel about what you are doing - one wrong phone call can bring the agencies swarming. You can do a lot with a 10% dead - dying diseased exemption and a lot more with a firebreak exemption. Contact your local Calfire forest practice inspector for options.
ljohn, may have just misspoke, but for safety I have to comment, I think the safe angles for your skytrak may be reversed. Can tolerate steeper angle front to back and less side to side. i.e. 22° and 12°. look MM I am using the degree symbols again!!! @Magicman (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10011)
Quote from: doc henderson on March 05, 2019, 08:27:05 PM
ljohn, may have just misspoke, but for safety I have to comment, I think the safe angles for your skytrak may be reversed. Can tolerate steeper angle front to back and less side to side. i.e. 22° and 12°. look MM I am using the degree symbols again!!! @Magicman (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10011)
Actually, I thought the same thing when I looked in the book. But, the SkyTrak is capable of load leveling side to side. I've been on some nasty side slope and can make the cab almost level. Its just that the tires start to slide on me! When I try to climb too steep, it just don't go - there may be some issues with the hydro-static transmission. Great on level with tons of motive power.
Well, too late for the comments ;) I had $200 burning a hole in my pocket from selling my rebar bender/cutter (that I picked up for $40 IIRC). So with another $600 cash, its mine :) ::) I saw what he was moving (pretty respectable logs) and he also used it to haul motorists back to the road when they slip off in the snow :o A quick $50 each, he says - lot better then a tow truck. I doubt he has any insurance!
Anyhow, it has a 14hp B&S with a gear reduction box running a triple belt to a large pulley attached to a small pinion gear meshed to about a 20" gear that has a big toothed engagement thing connected to the drum. So, stepped down pretty well. There is one lever for the drum brake, one for the drum engagement and one for the belt tension (to make it pull). It is just like the machine linked above in post #14. It has "Sewer 1102" stenciled on the side so apparently use for sewer cleaning. There is a shadow of a circular emblem from whatever district it belonged too in the past. I counted wraps and measured diameters and calculated there is about 750' of cable left on the drum. He whacked off 200-250' because there was a burr that scratched him ::) I think I would have tried a torch or a file to knock it off first.
It looks to have been very well greased/lubricated. It just has a funky rattle can yellow overcoat. I'll probably sand it down and give it my silver coating I like. It is a pull start but starts up right away and run nice and smooth.
Quote from: RPF2509 on March 05, 2019, 06:39:40 PM
To run a skyline you need two drums - that machine only has one. Its rigged for yarding direct with a bit of lift from the tower. Once you get 50' or so from the machine, the lift will be negligible. That cable looks light for ground leading big logs even if they are short. With ground lead, every boulder and stump will be a hangup point. Looks more like a winch system for a firewood cutter. $1k seems spendy for what it is.
He used an old car hood as a skidding plate. I'll likely do the same, maybe laying logs down as a corduroy road to aid in skidding. Or I may use my log arch with an additional wheel up front so it doesn't dig in. I will be doing in stages. I have a big flat area to drop and drag to the base of the hill/road. Then I have about 60-80' pull up the steepest part of the road and it turns sharp there. The next is a gentle S curve that is not too steep and about 100-140' stopping at a sharp turn, where I can drive my SkyTrak to retrieve them.
Yeah, the frame is not the stoutest. I was thinking of running the cable out over the tower pulley, down to a far tree around a snatch block, back around the tower pulley and out to traveler. So, there would be two aerial cables supporting the traveler. The log would be partially lifted as is comes up the cables. But that's just a dream...
Also, most of the large rocks/small boulders seen on my ATV trip have been used around the base of my foundation as seen in My Timber Frame Build (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=66160.msg1586313#msg1586313)
sounds like you are having a blast. can prob. sell it for that, if and when you are done with it. congrats!!! 8)
Well, the very best of luck with this adventure! Of course, we will expect follow up reports and perhaps a video when you have it hauling logs. This is pretty neat.
Now I have to wait a week for the weather - rain for the next week or so... More snow up on the property. So, when the snow finally melts...I have tons of chain but no chokers. I do have some of those big hooks (not sure what they are called) that don't hook the chain links. Maybe use one of those to act like a choker since it would slip and tighten up? Or just use regular chain and hook it as tight as possible?
john if you use chain, you can go around the log twice so there is a section of the chain that can tighten with tension. or instead of hooking the clevis to the "pulling" side of the chain, go around that chain and hook back to itself so the chain loop can slide and tighten the hold on the log. you can buy the connector online to make chokers. good luck
Chain choker (slip) hooks work really well for me and don't drop off the chain like a chain hook will. If you don't have slip hooks, Doc's idea of a double wrap can be helpful, but it seems like it is always a crap-shoot as the whether the hook will not slip off before it settles in and gets loaded. I actually prefer the chain chokers over cable, easier on the hands. YMMV
Get a couple chokers from Bailey's. You won't regret it. They're cheap and they work better than chain chokers. It's worth having a couple in your kit. Just being able to push the cable with the bell under a log or through a tangle saves a lot of aggravation. Plus they're really useful for choking a big bunch of limbs when you're cleaning up.
Chain chokers are fine too but they're really not as handy as the cable chokers. It's good to have options.
Congrats on the new piece of equipment.
Most chain comes with grab hooks rather than slip hooks, but you can make it slip easily enough. Run the end of the chain around the standing part and then hook it back to itself making a little eye that the standing, pulling, part can slip through, then it'll choke.
Little update. The "yarder" is really made to pull straight up (out of a sewer access hole). The frame is not made to take a side load. The top arch actually is pinned to fold down over the trailer to get through a small garage door. The PO said he had a snatch block added to a bottom brace piece to facilitate dragging logs or cars from ditches. But someone stole that. So, looking on CL and eBay, I didn't want to spend $150 to $500 on a snatch block. I have some scrap around so I'm fabbing up some blocks. First, I had some 6" well pipe that I cut three rings from. Next, I have some 1/4" plate that I need to make some side pieces (9") for the sheave (pulley) and the side plates for the block.
I have a cutting torch but my hand is not that steady to make something nice. So I rigged up this clamp-on circle cutting guide:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20190329_CircleCutter.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1553963654)
Then, I drill a 1/4" hole at the center and cut away!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20190329_cuts.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1553963721)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20190329_circle.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1553963699)
This is the ugly side with the slag before I knocked it off with a hammer. They actually came out pretty decent. I've since cut the side plates and will post more pictures when I get it together.
Finished the prototype - the first of three.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20190330_Block_1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1553993435)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20190330_Block_2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1553993425)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20190330_Block_3.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1553993456)
I might bang on it a bit to flare out the pulley sides. I originally intended to cut the top pipe so I could put a sling on it with a pin but decided to leave it as is for strength. The pin (bolt) that is up there is just a spare for the pulley in case I loose it or bend it. Just need to clean up a little weld spatter and paint it.
I welded a long piece of 3/4" black pipe in the center of the pulley. Then I welded the side plates to that along with the top pipe. I used a hacksaw to cut the pulley free and then welded in a curved top plate to make the frame rigid. This should be strong enough to use with the yarder to haul out some logs.
Looks pretty good but do not get under any load you have lifted. Check your sheave pin often and grease it every now and then.
Quote from: LeeB on March 30, 2019, 11:13:48 PMdo not get under any load you have lifted
Since this will be about 1 foot off the ground, I should be pretty safe! :D Point well taken.
Quote from: LeeB on March 30, 2019, 11:13:48 PMCheck your sheave pin often and grease it every now and then.
I wanted to put in a zerk. I could drill the bolt and put a zerk in the head side but since I will be taking the block apart every time I want to put the cable on it, I'll just grease it then.
Your cuting skills are great!!!
that looks good and is a good ideal , I too was looking at the price of pulleys , you saved a lot of money .
Quote from: thecfarm on March 31, 2019, 08:43:15 AM
Your cutting skills are great!!!
Thanks, but not really. Notice there are very few straight cuts - on purpose! I used my arc cutting attachment that took out all the waviness. Look close at the straight cuts and you will see what I mean :-\
Quote from: gdaddy01 on March 31, 2019, 05:39:57 PM
you saved a lot of money .
Only because my time is free.. ;) Probably 3 or 4 hours each by the time I'm done. What's a fabricator/welder make? $50/hr??? So $200/pulley :D
Don't ever turn down a compliment. ;D There are plenty of people that will put you down. Or try too. ;) There is always the ones that can do it quicker,better,cheaper. ::)
Quote from: ljohnsaw on March 31, 2019, 06:15:50 PM
Quote from: gdaddy01 on March 31, 2019, 05:39:57 PM
you saved a lot of money .
Only because my time is free.. ;) Probably 3 or 4 hours each by the time I'm done. What's a fabricator/welder make? $50/hr??? So $200/pulley :D
Try $75, I just hired one, you made big money ;D. After busting too many cheap ones I got lucky in a trade, I've got a $600 sheave here, it used to hoist guys and bricks up those 300' industrial chimneys. It'll outlast me but it is a handful to move.
There a fifteen 10 ton sheaves in the warehouse here at work that are about to go to scrap because they have no unique ser number from the manufacturer (Crosby) on them. Sure wish I could figure a way to get them home.
This project has been on the back, back burner for quite some time. It had several layers of paint that I removed, primed and then brushed painted it with aluminum color Rustolem. I had a can of high temp silver that I used on the engine. The date code on the tires showed them being 19 and 21 years old so I spent a bit of time looking for a set of used 14" tires. Those are hard to come by these days! Also replaced the triple 5L-685 belts. Since they don't come in that size anymore, I had to get 690's
Before:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Yarder_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1551734971)
After:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Yarder_Clean.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1566573577)
I'll soon see if the Rustolem-rebuild will make it perform any better :D After I give it one more engine test run, it will be heading up the hill to its new home.
Howd this saga end?
Wow, its been 2 years already! Well, still a work in progress. My property is steep. This thing is HEAVY. My 550 Yamaha (660 lbs) can't really handle it on the hills - so it sat behind my cabin/in front of my bath house while I worked on the cabin. I longed to get some Ponderosa from the bottom of my property with it, but couldn't get it close enough to winch.
But, I just got my Ford 545D FEL that is 4wd and is close to 11,000 lbs. :) I'm finishing up my bucket quick attach conversion and will likely take it up this week (supposed to snow on Thursday :() and grab the Gannon box. I want to stick a receiver on it so I can tow the winch and log arch with the tractor. About 2/3 of the way down my property is a level area the full width of my property (where the Emigrant Trail crosses). There are some decent trees there to harvest. There is also some on the slope below that I think I can retrieve with the winch (next year).
Stay tuned...
I hope you set up video john. Im scheming on a mini yarder.
What ever happened to the Radio Horse? Anybody remember them?