I picked up a power chair at a auction this past weekend and pulled these parts from it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42883/20190724_132624.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564004233)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/42883/20190724_132617.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1564004293)
I have both motors and all the wiring and the joystick. I'm thinking about using both motors if possible to take care of any racking. My plan was to use a chain drive system like others have. I've heard others have took these 24 volt motors and ran them on 12 volt or used a convertor of some sorts? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Looks like fun.
My bet is that two motors would be problematic unless you could guarantee equal speed and torque. Might be better to drive both sides with one motor.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Quote from: btulloh on July 24, 2019, 06:09:32 PM
Looks like fun.
My bet is that two motors would be problematic unless you could guarantee equal speed and torque. Might be better to drive both sides with one motor.
Good luck and keep us posted.
The motors run a power chair equally so I dont see why this would be any different.
I drive both sides with 1 wheel chair motor and two 12 vdc car batteries.
So 24volt?
You can't guarantee both motors will run at exactly the same speed, load might be slightly different on each of them due to crap on the track, slope, more/less resistance in circuit to each motor, wear (individual motor or track..), whatever. I would think inevitable you would end up having to 'recalibrate' them after several runs back and forth down the track.
If you wanted to use them both, join them with a solid axle. Or use one and tie other chain to axle/sprocket whatever.
Try running one on 12V. Shouldn't do it any harm. It will run slower than on nominal but if you get the torque required, no modification needed.
What you are forgetting is that the ECM unit in the control system in the wheel chair is designed to electronicaly compensate for the left/right turning action of the operator same as the differential in a car going around a corner which allows for an "acceptable" variation in the power transfer to each wheel to reduce the stress on tires and the drive train. You do NOT want this built into you saw head drive system. You want a SOLID axle that allows ZERO variation side to side. .
Wheel chair motor info... The motors themselves will run fine on 12 volts, just less speed and torque. Be aware that there is a small electric disk brake built into the motors. The gotcha is, the brakes are designed to lock up when power is removed, so have to apply power to the brake windings to release the brake. The real gotcha is the controller. Most won't work on 12 volts. They are microprocessor controlled and do some diagnostic checks before powering up. Both motors and both brakes must be connected and the joystick must be in the neutral. Battery voltage is checked also. The control box will have two independent controllers, one for each wheel . The joystick is a dual control.
For power feed on a mill, the single motor off a handicap scooter is a much better deal. a single larger motor with gearbox and differential driving both wheels. The controller is also a single unit, but also does the diagnostic checks during power up.
Both types are good heavy duty units, ball bearings, large brushes etc. I use one in a home-made auto clutch on my mill.
Quote from: pineywoods on July 24, 2019, 10:16:15 PM
Wheel chair motor info... The motors themselves will run fine on 12 volts, just less speed and torque. Be aware that there is a small electric disk brake built into the motors. The gotcha is, the brakes are designed to lock up when power is removed, so have to apply power to the brake windings to release the brake. The real gotcha is the controller. Most won't work on 12 volts. They are microprocessor controlled and do some diagnostic checks before powering up. Both motors and both brakes must be connected and the joystick must be in the neutral. Battery voltage is checked also. The control box will have two independent controllers, one for each wheel . The joystick is a dual control.
For power feed on a mill, the single motor off a handicap scooter is a much better deal. a single larger motor with gearbox and differential driving both wheels. The controller is also a single unit, but also does the diagnostic checks during power up.
Both types are good heavy duty units, ball bearings, large brushes etc. I use one in a home-made auto clutch on my mill.
These motors have a manual brake lever. I don't see a way to drive both sides with one motor and maybe I don't need to drive both sides. I haven't had aNY trouble with racking.
Sounds like I need to scrap the joystick and stuff and get one of those controllers like kbeitz used. And just use one of these motors.
Quote from: Kwill on July 24, 2019, 10:23:22 PM
I don't see a way to drive both sides with one motor and maybe I don't need to drive both sides. I haven't had aNY trouble with racking.
iv been out of circulation for a while. but how is your mill set up, 2 or 4 post design? i was trying to figure a way to drive both side of my mill too, and then i realized, run a jackshaft from 1 side of the bed, to the other on a pair of pillow block bearings for support, a sprocket on each end of the shaft, and another sprocket off the power chair motor to the shaft. connect a long length of # 20 or 30 roller chain, or heck, maybe for your's, bicycle chain if the mill is small enough, down the length of you bed, then back over an idler sprocket on the other end, come back and attach both ends of the chains to your saw carriage. that is my plans at least, but ill probably run some #30 or 40 chain for mine bc of the carriage weight, bed width and length. i could probably get away with #30.
I did pretty much what Charles suggested. My gallery has more pics under Sawhead Drive.
I can change drive sprockets for different speed ranges, have a 4PDT switch for 12 VDC charging and 24 VDC operation and a PWM speed controller.
<br
>(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1030088~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1564052147)
Looks liie a better setup. I looked through the pics but didnt see any of what you have mounted to the sawhead
Now you guys got me thinking about my raise/lower motor. It goes down perfect speed but it sure is slow going up. Wonder if I should get a DC to DC converter to up the voltage to 24 for the raise part. Wonder how well that will work?
Kwill, the 4 fingered clutch is attached to the sawhead frame - a clutch on both sides. It is actuated by a lever and is rarely used. Clutch stays engaged most of the time. I'll post more pics if needed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020102.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1455471746)
@kelLOGg (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=3036)
the handle that is in the "up" position. what is that for?
i see how you engage/disengage you carriage with the 4 nails, but do you have to walk to the carriage and actuate the system? also, do you drive from the carriage and walk with it, or stand in place and operate everything from a control panel?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020105.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1455471816)
Quote from: Crusarius on July 25, 2019, 09:41:59 AM
Now you guys got me thinking about my raise/lower motor. It goes down perfect speed but it sure is slow going up. Wonder if I should get a DC to DC converter to up the voltage to 24 for the raise part. Wonder how well that will work?
i was thinking of the same issues. granted i could put a 24v alternator and run s transformer to the everything but the powerscare motors. but with my setup, i planned on walking with the carriage bc of the way the system will be set up, so id have to have some kind of contact strip and contacts to drive the feed motors, similar to the WM hyd units, where the batteries for the hyd system are charged when the head is in the full back position, or a small cat track with a few wires running through it, or a hanging system, where the power wire is secured to multiple pulleys and the pulleys ride on a small braided cable, simialr to how some O/H crane control box moves along the carriage.
i think for now though, im gonna use a boat trailer winch and run a cable to 1 end, secure it, then double back and attach to carriage, as Matt Cremona did with his build, which mine is nearly an exact copy of his, it works for him, and he has very little racking action in the carriage, probably bc of the size and how tight tolerance things are within his set up.
Charles,
Cranking the handle pivots the wheel chair motor and loosen the chain drive to the shaft so I can change the gear ratio of the motor to the shaft. I selected the optimum ratio long ago based on how fast I can saw with the HP I have and very rarely changed it.
The 4 finger (nail) clutch stays engaged all the time - I added the ability to engage/disengage just in case the unexpected arises. Once I was making a delicate cut and needed tactile feedback so I disengaged and pushed by hand but that is rare.
During a cut I dial in the speed of the carriage via a tethered speed and direction controller. The tethered controller allows me to escape sawdust in the face when the wind is not in my favor but I usually walk along side anyway because at the end of the cut I have to be present at the carriage to raise the sawhead for return, AND I just like to see the blade cut. Upon return I select the next cut by lowering the head which requires no motor on my mill - I release the friction brake that came with the mill and let gravity do what it does best. Gravity turning the lift motor backwards has never presented a problem. These mods have been in place 10+ years. Hope this helps. All my motors have come from the Surplus Center, Lincoln, NE.
Bob
I don't have any pics that show my set up, I have the same type motors as you have on my mill. I use one for the power lift and one for the power feed. I started out using 12 volts but was slow so I added 24 volts. On the power lift I used sprockets to get the speed that I like, disadvantage has the same speed up or down. For the power feed I used small sprocket think it is a 11 tooth on a 40 chain and just power it on one side and as for as racking in have not notice any. I run the power feed on a PWM controller, I have everything in a control box that I set on a pestle. I ran cables that are long enough for the mill to run the length of the rails about 16'. I let it drag up and down on the ground so for have not trip or tore it off ;D. With the controller you can vary the speed easy and it will run faster that the mill will cut. I plan to change the power lift to a PWM so I can run it fast up and slow it down going down for a little better control. So for everything has work well for 3 years now. I would recommend that you read the build of KBetiz as he has schematic on wiring up the PMW if you choose to go that route, without relays in it you will destroy the PWM if you change the direction quickly, I did 10 of them (slow learner) :D. Good luck on what ever you choose. It was a fun build for me on my mill.
Quote from: kelLOGg on July 25, 2019, 09:53:41 AM
Kwill, the 4 fingered clutch is attached to the sawhead frame - a clutch on both sides. It is actuated by a lever and is rarely used. Clutch stays engaged most of the time. I'll post more pics if needed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020102.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1455471746)
Ah ok I didnt look at the pic close enough. I see the chain down below the fingers now. Yeah I like that setup. Wont have to mount the motor to the saw frame that way. Only problem I forsee is the 24 volt side of it. No way to charge the batterys while running it. Although while milling in my shed I could have a charger hooked up to the batterys.
Mine is attached to the saw head and I added and single wire alternator that keeps the batteries charged, have them mounted on top of the saw head and all rides together.
I really dont want to add a alternator and have to mess with pulleys and belts and stuff
I have my power feed set up use'in the K.I.S.S. method. One wheelchair motor mounted on one side, and a PWM and drum switch on the other. The mill doesn't rack even at fast speed if I'm cut'in down a cant for 2 X 4's. A good battery last me all day as WC motors don't pull all that much juice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22142/IMG_0543.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1563150957)
Quote from: Kwill on July 25, 2019, 05:54:33 PM
I really dont want to add a alternator and have to mess with pulleys and belts and stuff
Crazy question but any way you could mount it to run it off the shaft for the blade drive with a flat belt and idler. I know they make a low rpm voltage regulator.
Quote from: bags on July 25, 2019, 08:36:04 PM
I have my power feed set up use'in the K.I.S.S. method. One wheelchair motor mounted on one side, and a PWM and drum switch on the other. The mill doesn't rack even at fast speed if I'm cut'in down a cant for 2 X 4's. A good battery last me all day as WC motors don't pull all that much juice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22142/IMG_0543.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1563150957)
we are on the other side of the mountain range, to the north from you. our acft is at the fremont airport, near canon city.
Quote from: bags on July 25, 2019, 08:36:04 PM
I have my power feed set up use'in the K.I.S.S. method. One wheelchair motor mounted on one side, and a PWM and drum switch on the other. The mill doesn't rack even at fast speed if I'm cut'in down a cant for 2 X 4's. A good battery last me all day as WC motors don't pull all that much juice.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22142/IMG_0543.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1563150957)
Got anymore pics of your setup?
Quote from: Kwill on July 25, 2019, 03:10:29 PM
Only problem I forsee is the 24 volt side of it. No way to charge the batterys while running it. Although while milling in my shed I could have a charger hooked up to the batterys.
I use a 4 pole double throw center off switch to operate at 24 VDC and charge at 12 VDC.
The above pic is probably the best view of the feed I have--- didn't take a whole lot of pictures since folks didn't seem to have much interest in it. Its pretty much set up the same as woodmizers feed (except ya don't have to pay a thousand extra for the orange paint).
The drum switch is the forward and reverse--- the PWM controls the feed speed, and the WC motor is of course, the power drive. I have the battery just hang'in on the side of the mill till I put the mill back on its trailer.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22142/IMG_0516.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1534334473)
I got tired of rewiring my batteries from series (for 24 VDC operation) to parallel (for 12 VDC charging) so I installed a switch as mentioned earlier in this thread to make it easier.
In the schematic when the switch is flipped to connect the center terminals to the upper contacts this puts the batteries in parallel for 12 VDC charging and conversely flipping the other direction makes a series circuit giving 24 VDC for operation. It takes a pretty hefty switch - mine is 18 amps. If you try it, do it with two 1.5 volt batteries for testing. You don't want to miswire with high current batteries. Hope this helps.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1030099a.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1564182563)
Quote from: kelLOGg on July 26, 2019, 07:33:13 PM
I got tired of rewiring my batteries from series (for 24 VDC operation) to parallel (for 12 VDC charging) so I installed a switch as mentioned earlier in this thread to make it easier.
In the schematic when the switch is flipped to connect the center terminals to the upper contacts this puts the batteries in parallel for 12 VDC charging and conversely flipping the other direction makes a series circuit giving 24 VDC for operation. It takes a pretty hefty switch - mine is 18 amps. If you try it, do it with two 1.5 volt batteries for testing. You don't want to miswire with high current batteries. Hope this helps.
it definitely helped me. i would have ended up buying 1 of our avionics guys a LOT of bar served beverages to help me figure this out. well, i still don't fully understand it, but i think i can figure it out.
can you flip voltage "on the go" so to speak? meaning, for a faster raising of the head, throw 24v to the motor and for more control and slower downed, switch it to 12v?
also, where can a person obtain 1 of those 4 pole switches? any automotive parts house?
search 4pdt switch
https://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-Heavy-Toggle-Switch/dp/B001TJ6O9M (https://www.amazon.com/Parts-Express-Heavy-Toggle-Switch/dp/B001TJ6O9M)
This may be worthwhile endeavor. I need to try 24 volts to my motor and see if it will go up any faster. If it does I may just get a dc to dc converter so I do not need an extra battery.
The search for "4pdt switch" yields many hits. I prefer the solder connections so vibrations have no effect.
I see no reason not to switch from 12 to 24 at will. Basically, that's what you do when you turn on any motor. My switch has a "center off" position giving a slight delay between voltages but I don't think it is necessary.
Quote from: Crusarius on July 26, 2019, 08:53:24 PMsearch 4pdt switch
I did that, too, and found the same ones. I'm just leery of those little screw terminals that are so close together and attaching batteries to them. I did find one with spade terminals that I thought would work better.
Please post what you find in terms of a dc-dc converter. I, too, would like to switch to 24v when I'm raising my head. It goes pretty slow on 12v.
may have to start a new thread since this one has probably been hijacked enough :) The biggest issue I am finding with DC to DC converter is my motor draws 10-12 amps on 12 volts. my electronics guy I work with says the draw will be higher on 24v So I will need a pretty hefty converter or a second battery.
Hear is a heavy duty switch that I bought form electrical scooter parts to use as a forward and reversing switch it will take some heavy amps I ran 24 volts. I burn up several of the small dpdt now I have a drum switch
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/44432/switch.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1526133475)
I just posted a motor/gear reducer assembly in the FOR SALE forum which my be of interest.
@bwstout (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=34432) out do you have a link for that switch?.. never mind I found it.
ok