I have 13 hp horizontal on my log loader trailer. It has about 20 hours on it, electric start and recoil and has always been covered and started very well.
Except now, it won't.
It only turns about half a revolution before either battery or rope won't turn it.
Has oil in it but I didn't have a spark plug wrench with me to check that.
Should I look under the little valve cover ? Try to turn it over with plug out ?
I could really use some clues.
Thanks
Pull the plug when you get a socket, spin it over a few times, at the same time, checking for spark. If its sparking, install the plug and try it again.
It sounds like its hydro or vapor locked.
Check for gas in the oil
I have a wood splitter with a Kohler if you move it 5ft with out the gas shut off it locks up with gas in the oil.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on August 06, 2019, 06:31:14 PM
Check for gas in the oil
I have a wood splitter with a Kohler if you move it 5ft with out the gas shut off it locks up with gas in the oil.
Yup, I agree. Honda GX motors are famous for this.
I did check for gas in the oil but I'll change it when I get there again. It was not overfull or thin.
I was thinking maybe gas in the cylinder but if that, there would be gas in the oil ?
Thanks for the ideas
PS it hasn't been moved since the last time it ran last fall.
Being that new I would check for dirt dobber in exhaust if it has been sitting.
That engine has a centrifical compression release on the camshaft that opens valve at very low speed. I have seen them fail but with a lot more hours.
You can also remove the valve cover and check lifters. One might have come loose.
Spark is so hot on the Honda engines that it is hard to see.
I have a cheap spark tester from HF that works great.
Quote from: StimW on August 06, 2019, 10:24:38 PM
Spark is so hot on the Honda engines that it is hard to see.
I have a cheap spark tester from HF that works great.
grabbing ahold of it is the cheapest method. :D
Def sounds like the pot is full of oil, or something.
I had a vacuum pump motor in the sugar bush that had the flywheel / recoil area filled with twigs and nuts. It had the same symptoms. We did not see the debris until we pulled the recoil.
Is there anything tricky or dangerous about unbolting the recoil mechanism ?
I've tried to google it but I don't have enough data to watch utube and lose my ( cellular ) connection about every 10 minutes. No one seems to have a writen explanation. Living in the electronic stone age, here.
Thanks
4 bolts #10 metric hold the rope starter on and it just comes off.
Then you will have the pulley that you can wrap a rope around.
Half dozen bolts will remove the shroud with pull starter still on it.
Quote from: sprucebunny on August 06, 2019, 08:22:14 PM
I did check for gas in the oil but I'll change it when I get there again. It was not overfull or thin.
I was thinking maybe gas in the cylinder but if that, there would be gas in the oil ?
The gas gets to the oil by travelling thru' the cylinder. The best, FIRST thing to do before taking anything apart is pull the spark plug, then COVER the hole with a rag (so you don't get sprayed with gas) and pull the rope. If nothing comes out, then it's time to pull the shroud around the flywheel and find out what's blocking it .... mouse house, etc.
Thanks, John and Stim and everyone.
I won't be getting back up there for a couple of days.
Could be a valve that has dropped.?
A recent thread on here had the same problem and turned out the magnets rusted on the fly wheel with no clearance for the coil.
Yes, but that one wouldn't turn at all !
I have an 18hp duramax and had a valve keeper come un done, the motor would turn over about half a revolution in either direction. I got lucky and it only bent the valve stem, replaced the valve and keeper and it is fine now. Valves had gone out of adjustment, I was lucky it was not a catastrophic failure because this happened while it was running and in the middle of a cut, :).
Quote from: sprucebunny on August 07, 2019, 06:46:45 AM
Is there anything tricky or dangerous about unbolting the recoil mechanism ?
I've tried to google it but I don't have enough data to watch utube and lose my ( cellular ) connection about every 10 minutes. No one seems to have a writen explanation. Living in the electronic stone age, here.
Thanks
Nothing tricky or dangerous about unbolting the recoil mechanism, you may need to pull the rope to align the shafts when putting it back together. My thought is, their is a mouse nest under the cover and gets bound up on the starter gear as it turns. Also check over the wiring on the coil as they may have chewed it as well.
OK. So I've done everything mentioned here. It turns over but very slowly and only about 2-3 revolutions.
There was no mouse nest, there is an air gap at the ignition coil, no gas in the cylinder, no signs on the spark plug but it doesn't turn fast or far enough to fire anyway.
I put a teaspoon of oil in the spark plug hole. Same thing several days later.
The motor is mated by a Lovejoy to a hydraulic pump. No disengagement. I thought maybe the pump had a problem, was low on oil. Has oil. It is the same every time whether I wait a couple minutes or days or not.
The valves are moving.
What should I look at next ??? My best guess is to uncouple it from the pump but that pretty much means removing the motor or the pump. Neither are easy.
Thanks
SB, I don't know how the decompression works on Honda motors- I use to have a Briggs 14.5 horse that would do like your's if the valves weren't set precisely. It would crank a little and just stop on the compression stroke. Clunk, clunk.
That sounds like a good possibility ! I certainly have no idea where to look for or how to check that ..... Is that something that just suddenly goes bad ?
Someone mentioned that. I'll check for mud wasp nests in the exhaust, too.
Remove the valve cover. With the valves set at the proper lash, Valve clearance: 0.15 ± 0.02 mm (IN) 0.20 ± 0.02 mm (EX), and the rewind and spark plug removed turn the pulley by hand and watch the rockers. One, I believe the exhaust, should bump monentarily as the piston comes up on the compression stroke. If not the motor needs to come off so the camshaft can be replaced. ACR failure is not common but it can happen.
If you pull the plugs and it's still bound up you can rule out decompression being an issue?
Could be a bad crank bearing. Sounds like the motor needs to come out at this point whatever it is :(
You have the love joy style coupling, just loosen the set screws and slide the coupling halves apart. It may require a little gentle tapping and penetrating oil. Probably only have to move the half on the engine shaft. Or you can just un bolt the pump adapter from the engine, no need to remove hoses if just checking rotational resistance of the pump. I would check the valve clearance as already suggested.
If it is coupled to a hydraulic system, make sure there isn't a function on the hydraulic valve that is activated, too. For instance, it could be trying to lift the loader as it's trying to start. I remember one time I was running a skid steer, and the engine was bogging bad, and the hydraulics were really slow. I checked that thing up and down, and was ready to load it up and bring it into the shop when I finally realized I had stepped on the auxiliary hydraulic pedal, and it had stuck engaged. With no hydraulic attachment on, it was just going over relief. Solution- disengage auxiliary pedal🙄😂 I would start with the simplest thing, SB. Pull the spark plug and crank it over. If it's still dragging, it's not related to compression or fuel (or at least, you have a problem in addition to that). But if it frees up without the plug, you know you can focus on the engine itself.
It still turned real slow with the plug out.
I'll try to disengage the pump and see if I can figure out the valve stuff tomorrow.
Thanks
Are the legs on the trailer down?
That will put pressure on the pump
Cycle all the hydraulic valves several times to release pressure on them but be aware that something could suddenly move.
On my 6 hp honda I put a bypass with a ball valve to release the hydro pressure. Once it's warmed up I turn the ball valve an go to splitin wood. I had to do the bypass as I had an 8 hp tacomsa (can't spell) that wouldn't start if any thing was hooked to it on the splitter.
Wonder if you might have hydraulic valve that is not in neutral position causing a drag on the engine once the pump tries to rotate. If you can separate the pump mount enough for the lovejoy coupling to pull apart, you might find the engine will crank over. You can eliminate the hydraulic system or better isolate where to continue searching. I have had valve deadheading hydraulic fluid on my splitter before that acted like a starter or battery issue.
Went there today and wiggled all the hydraulic handles.
Tried to undo the Lovejoy set screws but I guess they need some Blue Creeper.
Tomorrow's another day.
Just about ready to move the sawmill which is right next to it and use my backhoe to unload the logs from the trailer so I can get them on the sawmill with the backhoe after I set it up again.....that or firewood :( Truck the loader is attached to won't start either but batteries will fix that.
Mostly, I think you need to use that stuff more, Sprucebunny!
I would if I could get it all to run at once. This loader problem is completely unexpected as it ran last summer/fall.
For any set screws it is best to use the hex keys that are mounted in sockets rather than the individual hex keys or the ones in a cluster. You can apply more torque and tap on them to fully seat them. Application of heat with a small propane torch can help. Cover the rubber insert with a wet rag and don't go crazy.
Thank you ! Good ideas ! I have several ordinary allen wrenches with half twists on them....
I give up. Got one set screw loose and the other is stripped. They are not easy to get to.
I'll move the sawmill and set it up again and put the logs on with chains on my backhoe.
I got the Honda to start by seperating it from the pump.
Do we have any hydraulic experts here ???
Isolate the pump from the valve spool and fire it up! Put the intake and output hoses in a bucket of oil.
More likely the valve spool is trying to make something happen while you're starting than a seized pump? As someone's said. Or a blocked filter in the spool maybe? But that'll tell you.
Thanks, Josh ! That makes sense.
I had planned to change the filter and pump some of the oil out so I'll make extensions for the hoses and try that.
I could turn the pump by hand with the pressure line in a bucket.
Removed some stuff.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11412/logloadexcessparts.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1567971124)
And now it starts !
Another success ! I'll take all I can get. There is still a pile of both somewhat broken and seriously broken stuff to go thru....
Nice one. Must just be a blockage somewhere or a stuck spool. If you take that cap off the spool at the other end opposite the lever there's a big spring under a retainer clip I think. Which can be a pain to remove/get back on but after that you can drag the whole shaft out and see if anything weird is going on.
Thanks ! I'll do that. I am really good at taking things apart. Not always so good at getting them back together :D
I'm right there with you on that, SB!😂