The Forestry Forum

Hey guys,

 

I'm student and currently writing my master thesis about the future development of chainsaws and trends in forestry.

And I need you as regular users of chainsaws to help me with it!

Since my personal knowledge about this topic is limited, I am conducting a survey to identify what's important for you working with a chainsaw and how you see the future.

Of course the survey is anonymous.

 

Link to the survey: https://www.umfrageonline.com/s/f4abc53 (https://www.umfrageonline.com/s/f4abc53)

 

I'm very happy about any participant! Thanks a lot for your help!

I hope you get lots of useful input, and welcome to the forum!

I believe it will be eventually., but its a long way off.
Right now the limiting factor is the battery.  When in the field battery dies change it with a charged one.  Do this  a few times then your done until batteries get recharged.  Run out of gas go down the road and get more. 
So
We need very long lasting light weighf batteries.  And a fast way to charge in the field.  Until these happen battery saws will see limited use.

Battery technology has come a long way, but still has a way to go to displace a gas chainsaw. The best battery chainsaws I've seen on the market now are the equivalent in power to about a 40cc gas saw.

Milwaukee has made some progress on the charging front: Their Rapid Charger has been out for years, which cut the charging times in half on most of their batteries as compared to their regular chargers. More recently, they came out with their Super Charger (https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Batteries-and-Chargers/M18-Batteries-and-Chargers/48-59-1811) which charges their "High Output" model batteries in half the time of their Rapid Charger (or 1/4 the time of their standard charger). The Super Charger is not cheap, however. It lists at US$169.  Another charging option is their 12 volt-powered battery charger which works on the M18 batteries (I own one. It's slow, but it does work. Handy for when you are away from a 110V outlet.)

IMO, the weight and battery life is still an issue preventing adoption of battery-powered chainsaws in more demanding applications.

Very interesting.  Never thought about a backpack battery.

I like my battery powered saw for stuff around the mill, and if I had to knock a small branch from something around the yard it would be fine, but I don't see me using a battery saw for felling, nor do I see any desire to strap on a battery back pack when I can keep 120 million joules of power in a gallon jug 50 feet away.  

It would seem odd to be standing on a high ridge on a cool morning, listening to a logging crew working off in the distance , and only hear the crack, crack boom of a tree falling. It wouldn't seem right to me if you didn't hear a chainsaw screaming full throttle and then come down to an idle just before you hear the crack, crack boom of a tree hitting the ground. Just me personally but i hope its after i'm gone when you don't hear the chainsaws anymore.

I find the sound of electric tools especially irritating. They sound like a bundle of angry hornets. I'm not super crazy about the sound of gas engines unless I'm running them, but still better than electric.

They have a purpose but it will never replace a gas saw.

I've had a 18 volt ryobi pole saw for years and works great for branches but battery life has always been a issue.

It's a great option for a homeowner who needs to cut a few branches or a small tree 1 time a year but daily use, battery after battery and you'll just burn up the motor. I've done it with Milwaukee battery drills, and Hilti battery hammer drills. There just not meant to be used hard for long periods of time. Time is money and time wasted waiting for a battery to charge or a tool to cool down is throwing money out the door. I burned up 3 Milwaukee 18 volt drills 1 day rotating drills to cool down even cause the foreman didnt wanna get a corded drill. Sure I got the job done with no down time but it cost the contractor more money in the long run replacing tools

I like 'em.
As a truck saw, with a battery plugged in and charging whenever the truck is running.
As a mill saw, the hardened "no replacement for displacement" sawyers ( Customsawyer and Yellowhammer ) use electric saws at the mill.
As a quick trim, for small jobs around the logyard,  woodshed or on a tractor - perfect!
Will it replace my Stihl 660 with a three foot bar?
Not in the future that I can see.
Use the right tool for the job, and electrics are coming on strong on the small end of the work scale.

I can see the use of battery saws for lighter work. Around the mill, gardening, construction, arborist work etc. Lighter stuff, and only used part time over the course of the day. Where you have access to recharging the spare battery. 

Technology isn't there yet to replace a 6-8 hp gas saw (with something you can carry anyway). And if today's mission is to break a 4ft dia hardwood log up into firewood. A big gas saw and a can of gas is what I'd be looking for. 

In the future this will likely change... Electric cars are now practical to use, but you don't have to carry the battery for one of those.  ;)

I've got one of the Stihl high dollar rechargeables, and I love it.  My little mill 362 doesn't get much use now.  The 661 still gets lots of fuel run through it, so the batteried saws still have a way to go, but....I said the same thing about cordless drills and circular saws a decade ago, and look at where they are now.

I use it as a mill saw, or for the occasional spike limb or such and when I'm running the eeer to cut cracked and ends off boards, or to trim them to length, as a crude but fast chop saw.   

I also use it for when I'm checking my fences for downed trees, and pretty much any kind of short duration, not too stressful work.  The booklet says it will run 45 minutes per charge, and I'm not sure of that, but one day for kicks I cut down and then broke down a white oak, maybe 18" diameter, not very big, but big enough, and the saw did it on one charge and surprisingly fast for such a small saw.  

I got introduced to these little guys when I was looking at buying a corded electric saw as a mill saw, and after asking my local Stihl dealer, came to find out the mega mill down the road had bought 5 of these and wanted more.  So good enough for me, I bought one and am surprised with it.

Do you have the toolless chain adjuster? If so, do you like it?

This is the home owner realm at best, anything commercial/industrial has a long way to go

Quote from: donbj on October 13, 2019, 11:58:04 PM
This is the home owner realm at best, anything commercial/industrial has a long way to go

The quality and durability of the saws can be good enough for "commercial" use, but the power and run time aren't enough for professional logging, or even serious amateur firewood cutting. But by commercial I mean around the sawmill, builders, landscape gardeners etc. Needs to be a "commercial" grade tool, but it only needs to run for maybe 15 mins? The sort of commercial use YH is using his for. 

The energy density of even the best batteries is WAY less than a gallon of gas. Or more importantly, you can carry enough gas to run a saw all day. You can't carry enough batteries.

The issue of saw power isn't really a problem, it's possible to build very light and compact electric motors, it's the batteries that are the limiting factor.

If a "professional" has a use for a 40cc gas saw that does not involve continual, all day use, there are some viable battery-powered options out there. (There are also some total pieces of junk out there.)

I agree that there is no way my battery saw can do what my 661 can do.  I wouldn't dream of cutting down big trees with it, after all, it's only got a 12 inch bar.  

However, when I went to find the "perfect" saw for my application, I looked at everything, eyes open.  Gas, electric, corded, whatever.  Money was no object, I was looking for a solution, which is to find the perfect "edger and mill" chainsaw.  It must be light, it must be fast (the Stihl battery saw seems to have a much faster chain speed than a comparable corded saw), it must last a reasonable time between recharges or refills, (the battery is rated at 45 minutes run time, my 661 would run out of gas at idle in 45 minutes, I believe.)  It must be maneuverable to cut between the rollers on a roller table (to buck a board in half without lifting it off the table and this saw comes with a very nice carver blade).  It must have a chain brake.  It must be easy to start and turn off.  It must be reliable, and start more or as easily than either my 661 or 362 (they are two pull start saws when cold). It must have a significant warranty, I was going to use the saw everyday, and I didn't want a piece of junk. Basically, the scenario is lift the saw up, buck a board, put it back down.  That's about it.  

The Stihl battery saw has a 1 year commercial warranty (2 years for farm use) as opposed to the Stihl 3 month commercial warranty for my 661 and 362 which can be doubled to 6 months if using their specialty oil.

I do like the tooless chain adjuster.  

Here is a classic video of the problems with a gas powered chainsaw used as a mill saw.  This isn't me in the video, but I think most of us can identify with the problems.  Watch what happens at about 16 seconds into the video and I can't help but feel sorry for the tailgunner trying to get first one, then a second, gas saw started just to cut the end off a board.  What a pain in the rear.  
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kRAF5gC9Ggk (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kRAF5gC9Ggk)

Then, here is my battery saw, straight out of the box, a year or so ago, bucking a scrap board.  Its plenty fast, and I routinely use it for bucking 2 and 3 inch thick boards being run through the edger.  In the video below, I was able to do the whole operation with one hand while filming with the other.  The amazing thing is how small the saw actually is.  When I'm using it to buck boards in front of customers, I tell them I'm going to use my "rubber band powered saw" and when they see the size of it, I think some think it is run by rubber band.  When they see it fly through a 2 x 16 inch hard maple board, all I hear are alot of "wow."

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UGMngD7-mVo (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UGMngD7-mVo)

So in answer to the OP question, for certain applications, IMHO, "Yes"...

I don't own a battery powered chainsaw .I do however have 3 drills ,one is an impact drill plus a "sawzall which are battery powered ,9 batteries ,three chargers .For a short time job they are great .Longer job not as good as a corded tool .
I think in some applications battery  saws would be great ,they always start if the battery has a charge .I can't see cutting a truck load of firewood though using a battery saw .Maybe trim the apple tree in the back yard once a year .There is a market for them .

I was wondering about camping with a battery saw. They are quiet and quick compared to a axe.


SE

There's definitely a place for a battery saw in the arsenal.  So far I haven't NEEDED one enough to for out the money.

Did anybody take the survey?

I wonder if the OP is checking his thread.  @Saegengott19 (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=47292) 

The survey was too restrictive with not enough options.  It was either "this"or "that" and did not address my sawing situations.

I have the saw and about 4 other tools.  after you get a charger and a couple batteries, the cost for additional tools is very little.  no noise or fumes.  can use it in my shop or in areas where gas saws are not used due to fire risk.  can use it inside my shop for rustic furniture.

Yep. Battery tools make life better. I just haven't stepped up on the chainsaw yet. It's a different battery world from my current crop. I wouldn't mind having the chainsaw plus a blower and a trimmer for quick chores. 

Battery impacts have really made a big impact here. I still have to go to air for something that requires the 3/4 drive, but everything else gets the battery impact now.  

I took the survey though I'm not sure how useful my answers were considering my needs.

I like my cordless drills and I think the batteries and charging times have come a long way but for me the fun of running the chainsaw is the scream of the engine as it is cutting. 

Brandon 

Here is my few ideas regarding batterysaws: 

I do imagine that it would be a very handy tool to carry if one did operate a mill, as I see it beeing very handy for a "I just need to cut this" situation.

As far as proffesional use go, I do think there is a use for battery saws.
For example in a commcerial thinning situation, or "brashing", or like situations where one needs to cut branches of standing trees. This is where I can see the biggest use for things like this. 

For my own use, I do concider a larger Stihl battery saw, like the 160 or 200. I see the 220 is also beeing launched now. 

I have tended to carry my trusty MS200 with a 12" 1,3mm B/C option about 75% off all the time I`ve ventured into the woods this year. I have concidered getting a MS150 (Launched as the 151 now with the 3-gen M-Tronic). The 150 runs the same B/C as the batterysaws (at least here in Norway), and it seems to do the job, at least for smaller stuff.

The Husky batterysaws run a 12" 1,3mm B/C (here in scandinavia at least), and that seems to get the job done for things like commercial thinning and that kind of stuff.

Best Regards
Odd.

I took the survey and yes the questions/answers can be manipulative. Like all surveys/polls.

I have the weed wacker, hedge trimmer, concrete/metal cut off saw, blower, and chain saw.  they start each time I pull the trigger.  batteries tend to go on sale with Stihl dealer days.  they make a backpack battery that will run all day for commercial stuff, but not sure the saws will hold up to all day long abuse.  My buddy has a mom in her 80s and she got the saw to trim low branches in her yard.  there is a home owner version with batteries inside and rechargeable but not removable.  Jim got the home owner hedge trimmer.  all of mine use the same removable rechargeable batteries.  will not replace a gas saw for big stuff, all day long stuff.  just like with a electric cars, if you love the concept you will put up with the short comings.  my batt saw is about as heavy as a gas small saw, if not heavier.

There is still improvements that can be made with electric motors. For example (from the Still Actual Rocket Science Dept) the electric fuel pumps on the NZ launched Electron rockets are 50 hp motors, spinning at 40,000 rpm. The actual motor is about the size of a Cola can.  It probably helps the cooling that they are pumping liquid oxygen, and they have a 1 mW output lithium battery to power the 18 pumps. Even then battery weight is an issue and the 2nd stage jettisons drained battery packs as it climbs to orbit. 

Getting launch contracts from NASA and Darpa must help with the funding, and being able to buy 3D printers that print titanium components in shapes that would be impractical to forge or machine normally. 

Tricky part would be to build a ~10 hp 3D printed titanium body electric chainsaw that you doesn't need a NASA sized budget to buy.  :D  The technology exists, the economics don't.  

I bought the 20v max DeWalt chainsaw as I'm heavily vested in that platform.

Replace a gas saw? Maybe for a homeowner as I've used it for basic trimming and cleanup work and its' performed well.

I know there are bigger / better cordless saws out there, will they replace a gas saw in a constant use job (blocking firewood), no way, ain't going to happen.

Ed

it is known to everyone that gas saw needs more maintenance than battery powered saw. The main advantages of gas saw is its huge cutting power.

Till now, no battery powered saw is as powerful as a pro gas saw. I think in future, when battery will provide as much power as gas, the replacement will happen.

Keep in mind battery operated tools are not without problems .First of all all batteries have a useful life then they either need replaced or rebuild .For example two DeWalt 18 volt replacements are around $100 which would buy a lot of gasoline and oil .
You can overload the capacity and burn up the motors or tear up the drive mechanics involved and basically turn it into a door stop .
All my battery tools are DeWalt which were either given to me when I retired or salvaged from the scrap tubs at work .Some of the later I have repaired .
I have two heavy duty Hilti corded impact drills that I repaired also .One retailed at over $1500 when it was new .--One mans junk is a another mans treasure ---- 8)

I have one of the Oregon battery saws that I bought on a weak moment on eBay.  I will say that it surprised me with how much I can do with it.  It took all the limbs off a 30' evergreen on a single charge and seems to cut about as fast as a MS170 that I had.  It's good for certain odd jobs and that's all I can say about it.

Thank you very much to everybody for their opinion! I understand better now where you see the chances and difficulties of battery powered chainsaws and why you (don't) see them replacing gas chainsaws in the future. You helped me a lot!

Gott

Not so fast, there lot of "dragon huggers and flat earth people" out there. They don't want change. You have to consider the new miracle fuels, E85, hydrogen, wood, and steam engine with batterys. The new saws will be some kind of a hybrid.

SE

Just a matter of time. Car nuts don't want to like the "Tesla" but it takes quite a but of gas and / or diesel to out accelerate one.. :)

Right now battery power has essentially obsoleted the sub 35cc class of saws. For the vast majority of home owner/yard/camp work, saws like the Husqvarna 120i with its $270 dollar retail price point that included battery and charger make the entire concept of a cheap gas saw ridiculous. From the issues around storing gas, leaking gas, to alcohol attacking parts of the fuel delivery system....why even bother when you can just keep a couple of batteries changed and never have to worry about a choke and pull start, where I worked the road sign guy ditched the saws offered in favor of a cordless "sawzall" style tool!

The technology already exists and a couple of companies will roll out products as the market will absorb the concept into to the "50cc" class saws and there is one company not starting with "H" or "S" who thinks they have the ability to get into what we would see as the 70cc class....just have to wait and see, right? My guess is five years from now we will be arguing the case for battery over the 50cc class saws......:)

@weimedog (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1485) In agreement on where things are going.  Like you I do think we'll see some mid range serious felling saws within 5 years.  At that point Stihl will be a chain manufacturer and producer of larger saws?  Husky and Stihl really are small engine makers, the rest of the saw is easy enough to produce but the engines take a beating.  Electric saws spin faster safety is going to be a concern, chaps need more work.

Things are heading down that road for sure @nativewolf (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) .  

There are a lot of electrons around.  Quite a few of these electrons are loosely associated with their orbits and can be liberated to do work for us - electrical current.  The technology for doing that is advancing pretty rapidly.  Energy density and battery longevity is increasing all the time.  

There will be technological advances based on currently unknown science that will eventually provide electricity at densities and in quantities that are, for now, inconceivable.  We just don't now how long "eventually" will take.  It may take a week, or it could take a thousand years.  I'm guessing it's somewhere in between.  Most likely, chainsaws will be replaced by that time with some less-crude method of severing wood fibers.  I'm all for it.  But for now I'll have to use the most appropriate technology for a given task:  Shaped explosive charges.  :D  Or more likely, a gas-powered chainsaw.

Quote from: btulloh on October 18, 2019, 02:43:16 PMMost likely, chainsaws will be replaced by that time with some less-crude method of severing wood fibers. I'm all for it.

Like light sabers.

 :D :D :D  :D  Exactly!  Or the phaser. Set on 'humbolt notch'.  Three clicks up from 'stun'. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyhR1THflUU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyhR1THflUU)

'Replay mode' is my personal favorite. 

I have been looking at these also and a pruning pole saw. The September 2019 issue of Popular Mechanics has a review of several brands that is informative. Not ready to pull the trigger yet.

I'm looking at one of the Stihl saws for my parents who are in their 60's and 70's. Pull starting a saw is a no go, but they are both still very active and capable. I inherited a lightly used MS250 because it was too much saw to use, so I figure I should replace it with something that is more user friendly. If they cut anything over 6" I'd be surprised! 

the first saw I got my son was an "easy start", with a spring that winds on a few pull then goes.  A little unnerving since you do not really know when it is going to turn over.  Stihl has them on a few smaller saws.

Thanks Doc, I'll look into them, but I'm leaning to battery powered. This will be used lightly and mixing gas, and not putting bad gas into the saw and also not letting it sit with gas in it. Beyond that, if it's a gift I get to try it out myself without buying one:)

@Poquo (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=45962) picked up a Milwaukee 18V and has been bragging on it. Nice thing is the same battery fits many other tools. 

Saturday I cut down an 18 inch diameter ERC , cut all the limbs up and cut the logs to length , all on one battery charge .

I have and love the 36v Stihl batt. stuff as well.  good luck.  

I have a towable bucket lift that is very handy for lot of things on the farm. I find myself using the sawall with a pruning blade a lot with the bucket lift if I only have to trim a few branches. I can see a battery powered chain saw is going to be one of my next purchases. I get tired of starting a saw up in the bucket lift when trimming and you let it run and you have oil all over. 

I bought a lightly used dewalt 40 volt last year .
And it really amazed me on how well it cuts and how long the battery lasts . No it wont replace my stihl gas saws but its always in my truck when i go to the woods .

Good find. All I've seen is brand new and plum wore out. 

I wouldn't like to be the guy carrying a battery
large enough to pull a 24 inch bar all day, and what
about those who regularly use longer bars.

This is just more crap because the big money is
going to be in batteries, the whole world is talking
electric this and that, and all because of carbon credits,
the new currency.

Wonder what kind of battery it would take to pull a 24" bar all day? 20# in a backpack wouldn't be bad, but then you'd have a cord to deal with, and you still need bar oil.

Quote from: lxskllr on November 04, 2019, 06:00:56 PM
Wonder what kind of battery it would take to pull a 24" bar all day? 20# in a backpack wouldn't be bad, but then you'd have a cord to deal with, and you still need bar oil.

You would want a strong back and legs to carry the weight,
probably would balance well with a 10 ft bar.

Quote from: Greenerpastures on November 04, 2019, 07:51:58 PM
You would want a strong back and legs to carry the weight,
probably would balance well with a 10 ft bar.

I was first thinking having the battery in a pack would allow for a lighter saw, but that's not good either, cause the balance would be off with the longer bars. You'd have to add weights to the saw to get it to balance well.
Might be a fun idea to play with in a design shop. but I'm not sure you'd have anything workable when it's all said and done. Bar oil takes away a lot of potential convenience also. You'd still have to stop to "refuel". If you're carrying bar oil, you might as well carry fuel too.

Quote from: lxskllr on November 04, 2019, 08:05:04 PM

Quote from: Greenerpastures on November 04, 2019, 07:51:58 PM
You would want a strong back and legs to carry the weight,
probably would balance well with a 10 ft bar.

I was first thinking having the battery in a pack would allow for a lighter saw, but that's not good either, cause the balance would be off with the longer bars. You'd have to add weights to the saw to get it to balance well.
Might be a fun idea to play with in a design shop. but I'm not sure you'd have anything workable when it's all said and done. Bar oil takes away a lot of potential convenience also. You'd still have to stop to "refuel". If you're carrying bar oil, you might as well carry fuel too.

I would think any battery that's going to run a saw all day would be
more than heavy enough to balance a saw with a long bar, one could
also have some battery on the saw too, but either way won't be happening
anytime soon, and if it does, plan on spending 3 or 4 thousand on batteries a couple times a year.
I researched battery power a while ago, to charge with wind and solar,
any battery I could afford would still work out more expensive than just
using the power from the grid, and the type of battery in Question
was very heavy, I know there is new technologies out there for batteries,
but who can afford it, and it's still too heavy to take to the woods to
power a saw for a day, it's ok for small jobs, but unless a miracle happens
it won't be coming to the woods to fell forests.

Always love the premise battery's have to have enough power to run long periods of time....really the price point has to be reasonable and have enough power to run for about as long as a gas saw does of a tank of gas....then swap batteries. And put one on charge. Might have two three even four and cycle them thru charging. I work from that premise. I literally work that premise with my Makita drill and impact drivers when building stuff around the farm. I really only needed the two batteries that came with that Makita set. The weight has to be reasonable (it is) and so is the run time between battery changes/charges. SO lets see how this works.

I have a Husqvarna 120i chansaw.  WITH a battery and charger it costs in the $260 range. Batteries. Right now they cost in the $125 range, list. Takes a while to recharge.  I go 35-40 minutes on a battery working that battery. SO lets say I have three batteries. So then I charge after the first one is used up...have a second and third ready while the first is charging. I would have $500 into the package. And don't have to ever by gas & two stroke oil for that saw. SO How long before the extra cost of the battery setup cross the cost of gas and oil? Because that's the metric I would expect when better and more capable battery powered saws hit the market. That vs. an 8hr battery setup. Think we are closer to that than folks think.....in the 50-60cc class power saws powered by batteries. And taking the "vector" of the last few years of development expect pro level offerings in the next 5 years is my guess.

And in addition to the never buying gas and two stroke oil is the fact storage of fuel and the deterioration of fuel supply parts doesn't happen. Not dealing with pull starts chokes....maintenance items like air and fuel filters. Spark plugs. All the cleaning because a gas powered saw sucks in air in a dirty environment...might be hard to put a dollar value on that but time is money.

Already small saws options and pole saw options make it harder to justify the cost of gas powered options, why is it a stretch to see this as a trend for larger saws? Tesla's changed the game for performance cars to...I still have a hard time watching them just eat up most performance cars in a drag race. I want the old muscle car concept to win....but they usually won't.

Stihl has a battery backpack that works with there tools, and think I heard it would run a weed eater all day, and could charge all night.  nothing is free including convenience.  and remember, batteries for now have a life span that runs out.  for now I use both.

Battery's do have to be big, Tesla knows a thing or two
and would have shrunk them if they could, Panasonic and
and the others too.
It will be a long time before anyone heads to the forest to cut
all day with a battery powered saw.

There are a lot of forces pushing towards battery vehicles,
right now there are only a few scattered publicly accessible
chargers to charge up when your flat. Can you imagine the
load on the power grid if we all ran electric vehicles, some
power companies already went into melt down because people
we're running container loads of computers mining crypto
currencies.
This electric revolution will cost people big time when they
discover the so far hidden costs, no one wants a second
hand electric car because the batteries only have a certain
amount of cycles, wait and see how that effects the price
of the new electric vehicle, when the current fleet of gas and
diesel cars are legislated off the roads.

The powers that be also know there is not enough of the
materials needed to have us all in electric cars, hows that
going to help, like buying a car in a Chinese city you need to
actually enter a lottery and wait your turn.

Back to chainsaws, you simply can't take a Micky mouse battery
saw to commercially fell trees, people even port their saws to
get more power.
From the minute you press the trigger on a battery saw it's all down hill,
change the battery, repeat the fiasco, you wouldn't earn enough money to buy your dinner at that crack.

So what happens when you are felling a tree with your battery pack, cord attached saw and she chairs? 

Drop the saw and run? Only as far as the cord. Throw the saw and run? Umm, nope.  Run with a saw in your hands and a lanyard around your feet? 

I don't see any back pack saw ever being a viable option for felling. 

Now for those who will say the cord will have a disconnect, well that would have to disconnect from both saw and backpack in the case of an emergency, and without any fiddling around, which means it won't stay on when walking through tops/brush, etc in the course of normal work. On top of that could you imagine trying to limb a pine with a cord attached to you and the saw? 

They have their place, and felling isn't it. 

I don't see the big battery pack concept as viable as well out side the landscaping world of weed whackers, blowers, and trimmers. Prefer smaller batteries and changing them. Maybe hang a couple on a belt. Certainly safer than carrying a can of gasoline! Battery technology is about physics and manufacturing.....which more physics mixed with economics. More advances to come. And the size of the "useful" battery will depend on the amount of energy needed for the power and time required. So say arbitrarily enough to run a saw for 1/2 hour at "60cc" levels of power. THEN swap batteries as one would refill a gas tank. Really....don't think we are too far away from that...from what I hear..:)  SO if I can have a 555/562 class saw in weight and power running on batteries that are affordable / in the same cost class as a pro saw in that power class and those batteries last at least 1/2 hour....I'm all in. I'll let the rest of the world rationalize why that won't happen and when it shows up why it couldn't of happened. :) Kind of deja vue for me. I remember in the early 486 years why first pentium's couldn't happen for a reasonable cost, and then when they did, all the theoretical limitations based on architecture that would limit their usefulness.....now those 68000 based work stations are in the ash bin of cyber history and i7's rule the world in their many different configurations. If anyone thinks this is any different...I guess that's the difference between those who understand technology and those who just use it.

technology does advance but takes time and is based on other areas advancing.  Unless you work for the government, cost is also an issue.  many things great were developed for the military.the latest stuff costs more.  there has to be a reason.  current apps require more power and speed.  My first computer was an rs5000 with 5 k of ram, and a 10.5 inch floppy disc and took up the whole trunk of my camero back in 1980.  cost me 5,000 dollars.  price went down about 200 bucks a month. dos based.  I had to get a loan from the bank.  these were used to compare flex life to whole life insurance policies.  I think if the government offers cash for clunkers, I will keep my old chainsaws.  to get that power from a saw, not only the battery has to be strong, the motor must be powerful and reliable as well (heavy).  so companies will develop this if there is a paycheck at the end.  prob not affordable for a hobby guy in my lifetime.  good specialty application for areas of population (quiet), or areas of volatile environments (inside buildings search and rescue.)

The hobby side of me has me running old Jonsered's for most of my cutting and probably for my life span. It's what I like to do...burn gas and two stroke oil. Boats....my old Mercury's from the 1970's. Motorcycles? My old 420 KTM is all I have left. Hated the switch to four strokes even though they evolved into more flexible race bikes over time. I worked for a motorcycle company when that was happening 2000-2002 time frames. I still like my two strokes. But as a former engineer who dealt in bleeding edge technology, in particular software and manufacturing; I just understand how infrastructures evolve over time with the interaction between politics, business, technology, the entire cabal. While the oil based economy will remain the primary driver of all things for our life time, the battery/capacitor concept as a device to store and carry energy around as an alternative to a volatile fuel has too may upsides for that concept to stay steady state. And predictably it hasn't. Too much opportunity there. Remember as all major infrastructure changes in history, huge amounts of resources are used and economies created. Rail to Highway, Land Line to Cell phone. Typewriter to lap tops. Going from gasoline to battery is one that has even more opportunities attached and for that reason alone the technology will follow to make it happen. Just too many drivers in play. AND the physics are in the ball park right now with more advances on the way, so it's  no longer a stretch to envision a workable solution.  So yeah, I get the "here and now" logic that is used to discredit the concept. But like I have said I have seen enough, heard enough, and understand enough to realize it's not if, its when. And if my sources are correct, its happening in my life time...even in my USEFUL life time. That's within the next 5-10 years. The optimists on that stuff think sooner like within a year, the pessimists...it will NEVER happen based on some assumptions on their current knowledge of physics, the realists....next 5 to 10 years there will be products on the market challenging for the pro market powered by batteries. AND it's already here when you see the landscape focused products already battery powered. I have heard from a reliable source one company ( Not our usual suspects in the saw world, a company with a solution looking for a problem) has something in prototype form that will challenge current saws, is it real? maybe, maybe not as I haven't seen it in person. Time will tell. After a year with my little Husqvarna 120i.....I believe it's possible. AND this year building a bunch of things around the farm and working in the shop with my Makita's.....those tools have certainly come a LONG way! I've evolved myself from a "probably not in my life time" to "it's closer than you would think" mindset.

initially it will be expensive.  so I stand by my statement "prob. not affordable for a hobby guy in my lifetime"  .  If it comes along I welcome it.  If the government gets involved and makes the decision to subsidize and or develop for the military, it will happen.  If the government throws billions of dollars at it and outlaws gasoline, it does not really count.  IMHO

The battery cost gets spread if you have several tools using the same system. 

So you could have a chainsaw, lawnmower, hedge trimmer and leaf vac in the same system, and only 2 batteries. 

4 tools and two batteries works out a lot better than 4 tools and 8 batteries. Unfortunately the tool makers won't get together and agree on some ISO standard for batteries because they want to keep you tied to their brand. 

The biggest issue with battery tools is the cold climate. I would like to see how long the batterys will last in -30c.

I spent a career with and am now retired from the Army Research Laboratory and would think that while they probably aren't thinking chainsaws they are thinking drones and other things that are battery powered, this technology will trickle down to other items.

Quote from: Ianab on November 06, 2019, 01:45:45 PM
The battery cost gets spread if you have several tools using the same system.

So you could have a chainsaw, lawnmower, hedge trimmer and leaf vac in the same system, and only 2 batteries.

4 tools and two batteries works out a lot better than 4 tools and 8 batteries. Unfortunately the tool makers won't get together and agree on some ISO standard for batteries because they want to keep you tied to their brand.

Take a look at both Husqvarna and Stihl's offerings ....and take a look over your shoulder if your a Husqy/Stihl type for that Makita company. AND there are more on the horizon.

I see Milwaukee is introducing an new battery/tool line.
One of the tools is a full size 14" cut-off saw...

I guess time will tell how it works into the chainsaw world.

Ed

we have prepared a site to pour a slab, and used my Stihl batt. 9 inch cut off saw to cut some steel and changed to a concrete blade to trim some border.  worked well for me doing just  a few cuts.  even used it to cut through sprinkler pipe that was in a trench and hard to get to otherwise.

They are even putting brush cutters and weed eaters out there now. But they are not powered like the pro model gas saws. How are you going to charge it 50 miles in the bush? Run a gasoline engine? How long does it need to charge to be usable in a useful sense. ::)

they are expensive but they have back pack batteries that can run 8 hours, but I agree they may not hold up to the abuse (work) you guys put equipment through.

The battery in my ATV died so I went to Batteries+.  On the end cap of one isle was a display for Lion batteries.  They were something like 2.5x the price of an AGM.  I picked one up to look at it and the salesman said something like, isn't that amazing.  I said, yeah, but pricey - how much does a real one weigh, not this empty case.  He said, no, that IS a real battery!  I could not believe how light it was.

As far as field charging, a few years ago I picked up a charger for my DeWalt 20v batteries that plugs into a cigarette lighter.  I figured it might work ok.  I've been using it for several weeks while working up on my cabin.  I made a control station for my bath house - mechanical timmer for the pump (so I don't leave it on when I go home), various connections and switches for lights and charger plugs and a volt meter.  When I put a 5ahr battery on the charger, the little deep cycle battery I have drops a tenth of a volt (sometimes).  When I run the water pump, it will drop 1 to 2 tenths and maybe a 3rd as it hits max pressure but recovers when it shuts off.  I've charged 3 or 4 batteries overnight and seems to have no effect on the 12v battery.  This charger is what I would call a "fast charger".  It can charge a dead 5ahr battery in about 45-60 minutes.  The little 2ah in 15 or 20 mins.

So, I would have no qualms about running off my truck battery out in the field to support a chainsaw.

What about a solar charger seems like that would work for a lot of applications. I have a 40 volt chain saw and am impressed by the amount of cuts it will make.

Quote from: ljohnsaw on August 29, 2021, 10:55:36 AMHe said, no, that IS a real battery!  I could not believe how light it was.

Lithium is about 1/20th the weight of lead, And MORE reactive, so can store more power in less space AND less weight. 

A solar panel / small storage battery would work for remote use, but a deep cycle battery in the back of the truck would recharge multiple batteries over the course of the day, and not risk running the vehicle main battery down. Recharge that overnight, and carry a couple of spare tool batteries. One in the saw, one on your belt, and 2 recharging in the truck. 

If you end up with an electric vehicle, it's battery would recharge the saw batteries maybe 100 times?

Electric motor power? This is still "rocket science" level, but the electric fuel pumps on the Rutherford rocket engine is about the size of a drink can and makes 50 hp, at 40,000 rpm. Now it's only designed to run for a few minutes, and it's cooled with liquid oxygen, but that's the sort of power that's now possible. 

As far as this industry is concerned, looking at more than just saws presents a clearer picture. And it's really TWO industries, on a slow converging course. The traditional outdoor power companies and now the arrival of the battery tool companies all offering options to gas tools. The homeowner side of this where jobs can be done with short run time tools is quickly moving towards battery. This includes walk behind mowers. If your lawn can be mowed on a single charge, then it's a nice option.

What guys on forums like this usually don't get is how far ahead of the average consumer most of you are in being equipment savy. Most people are incapable of even basic maintenance or maintaining a fresh fuel supply. Even after repeated trips to the shop. These clowns moving up from NYC can't set a mouse trap or change a light bulb. Battery tools are by far the best option for these folks.

The thing few people talk about is that this stuff is still gonna break. And there's nowhere to get it fixed yet. "The light doesn't come on" "I push the button and nothing happens" "Is it the battery or the charger that isn't working" The boards and controllers are pretty pricey, so much of this stuff is still in a throw away category.

For cheap handheld at least. But people aren't going to throw away a $4000 battery tractor, or a $30,000 commercial zero turn. Somebody's got to fix them, and very few shops, including mine are up to speed on this stuff. (and at my stage of the game, that won't be happening :)  )  And what are we gonna do with the old batteries? Just to get involved with the Gravely battery units you are required to be a certified haz-mat shop to mess with the batteries. As has been mentioned above, there's an awful lot of hiddens that nobody wants to talk about.

In the normal progression of things they just evolve .Some for the better some not so much depending on how you view it .Many things are built in such a way normal repairs are out of the question .Cheaper to replace than repair .Battery devices it's often times less expensive to replace the entire unit as a package then replace the two batteries it came with .It's by design these items all have different batteries by both voltage and package so they won't interchange . All that said they certainly are much more handy than using a hand saw or a brace and bit for small remote jobs .I mean after all this is 2021 not 1821 .

Since this battery saw thread got revived I'll throw in a reminder, while your 7 year old child or grand child probably can't start your gas saws they could start a battery saw and do serious harm, watch how they are stored!

Quote from: gspren on September 01, 2021, 03:42:55 PM
Since this battery saw thread got revived I'll throw in a reminder, while your 7 year old child or grand child probably can't start your gas saws they could start a battery saw and do serious harm, watch how they are stored!

As well as other un-trained wannabe's, such as relatives and family members (spouse included). Having to pull-to-start is one safety device. ;)

 Today there use is limited to the smaller size trees and limbs, as many tree climbing tree trimmers use them because size weight and no yanking to start.

As the batteries get more powerful and keeping the size of the battery small, you will start seeing the battery powered chainsaws in use where today you only find gas powered chainsaws.

As been said I see the gasoline powered tools on a trajectory that will intersect the battery powered tools trajectory in the future.

Problem is the batteries themselves......we've been waiting for the 'new' battery technology since the lithium ion battery came out. Electric car manufacturers are on their knees praying to their battery gods for this 'new' battery technology.

But like Bob said, batteries still drive the actual mechanical functions and that needs to be repaired. Most of my work drills/drivers are battery. But if I know it's going to be a long interval, I'll switch to corded. And when I have a serious amount of holes to drill, out comes the Holehawg.

I can't even tell ya how many rechargeable drills/drivers I've repaired. The pro models with all metal transmissions are a wonder. Some of the new impact chargeables are truly amazing. But the batteries themselves inside are pretty complicated with circuits;too hot they shut down, tampering with the electronics and they 'brick' etc. They don't lend themselves to any kind of easy or universal repair. Where do you get information on fixing rechargeable batteries(?), you don't.....you go on YouTube and look at all the hacks.  

I doubt in my lifetime I will see a pro electric chainsaw to fell & buck serious timber. It would take the 'new' battery technology to happen. They are making lithium ion batteries lighter that have the same load capacity(or more) as previous lithium ion........that's about it for progress at this point.

Kevin

The batteries themselves are the biggest impediment to electrification.  Doesn't matter if it's a car, a semi, or a chainsaw.  And it's not just one issue.  The energy density is part of it.  The best batteries in the world are pathetic compared to a tank of gas of comparable overall tool weight (so even taking advantage of the smaller/lighter electric motor vs ICE).  Upthread quite a ways someone discussed the advances in computer capabilities and size.  Well, those can follow Moore's Law (the speeds would double about every 2 years) which has broken down lately, but held for a very long time.  Battery energy density however does not follow Moore's Law, it is instead constrained by chemistry.  From the first batteries that Edison produced to today there's only been about a 10x improvement (25Wh/kg to 250Wh/kg).  If batteries followed Moore's Law since Edison's time a 1kg battery would be in the ZettaWatt-hr range (1 trillion GigaWatt-hrs or about 40,000 years worth of global electricity consumption).

I work for an automotive (trucking) OEM.  The weight of batteries is a big issue.  That semi that Musk was pimping a while back?  He claimed a 500mi range.  For the batteries he said they'd use (same as Model 3) it would require 14,000lbs of batteries.  An entire Kenworth T680 tractor with a mid-size sleeper and full fuel tanks weighs about 14,000lbs.  That battery weight was just that.  Only the batteries.  Not the structure to hold them, or any of the rest of the tractor.  It's no wonder so little has been heard of that truck in a couple years.

Anyway, energy density and therefore weight of the batteries for a given duration is one problem.  But then there is recharge time.  A gas saw came be "recharged" is under a minute by pouring some more gas in.  While you can swap batteries that means having to own extra batteries.  Which isn't cheap and is another (heavy) thing to lug around.  Especially if your use case would require enough extra batteries to get through a long work day out in the bush.  Or you can wait around for it to recharge.  But, even if an outlet is handy, fast charging isn't necessarily a great solution because the faster you charge a battery the more it degrades.  We all know how our cell phones eventually can't make it through a day without recharging anymore.  Same thing happens in a BEV car or tool battery.  That saw that initially could cut for 45 minutes on a charge after a year of light use might only degrade to 42-43 minutes if always slow charged and kept from ever running too low.  But with hard use and constantly running it empty and then using super fast charging it might be down to 20-25 minutes of cut time after less than a year.  So then you're looking at having to replace those batteries ($$$) and dispose of the old ones.

I won't even get into the environmental side if things, but suffice it say that battery power isn't as "green" as some like to think.  I suspect I'd be preaching to the choir for the most part here on that score though. 

All of this is not to say battery saws are worthless.  I watch a couple arborist channels on YouTube and they seem to like their battery saws, for certain applications.  One guy commented that his battery saws kept people from calling the fire marshal on him in the heat of the summer.  He also seemed to really like it for limbing and topping trees, but eventually he'd send the battery saws down to exchange for a gas saw.  

And for the homeowner that only needs to put 1-5 hours a year on a chainsaw they're probably superior overall to gas power.  

I'll probably get one eventually.  But for now it's not quite the right tool for what I need.

That's a pretty fair assessment. The battery capacity and charge times aren't quite there yet for a lot of uses. 

Electric cars are now practical for many uses. Electric rubbish trucks and busses are a thing because they might only do 100 miles a day, stop / go city traffic, where electric does shine.  We  have electric passenger ferries and Auckland port has now has an electric harbour tug. The tug is more of a hybrid, with a diesel backup because it would be an embarrassment in an emergency, but it should be able to run 98% electric.  The diesel generator is relatively small, but enough to sail normally, or recharge the battery over time. The main engines are electric. 

Electric cars fires are pretty foreboding. A standard firetruck pumper cannot put them out. It usually requires some chems.

Add to that the amount of resources used in making those electric cars and their attraction starts to diminish. And if you're looking towards Tesla as the great electric car success story....they're having some serious issues.

However, batteries in hand held gizmo's....great, keep them going!

Kevin

Electric cars are a net positive for emissions...

Electric cars have much lower life cycle emissions, new study confirms | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/electric-cars-have-much-lower-life-cycle-emissions-new-study-confirms/)

As far as fires go, well... Life sucks. Just let it burn out. Not like you can put out an ICE fire in any meaningful sense. You usually end up with a steel shell in the end.

" Finally, the study accounts for the fact that energy production should become less carbon-intensive over time, based on stated government objectives."

Bieker is factoring in variables for his paper that haven't even happened yet. Also, he says there is no future for the internal combustion engine if we are to decarbonize. Given that we've had over a 100yrs in that technology, that's just a foolish statement. We could easily push 100mpg internal combustion engines which would incredibly relieve the pressure on fossil fuels.  

As Detroit fades away, they are still pushing/selling high hp cars & trucks. That should only be a tiny percent of their operations....those cars & trucks. Evolution will eventually take place and from the Gen Z's on, they will care less and less about fast, fossil fueled cars.

In my lifetime, I've seen this in so many other venues;throw the baby out with the bathwater. Then, even though there are enormous regrets, you can't go back.

Kevin

California  ( u.s.a.) is trying to pass laws banning the sale of small gas engines, ( if they havent already )- lawnmowers, generators , chainsaws , etc. starting in 2024 . ( and maybe sooner ) Landscaper companies  are not happy.... how many batteries will it take to mow all day long ? not to mention the initial cost of replacing their equipment.

The state that can't keep its grid up and running wants to put more burden on it.  Makes complete sense.  Pump flood water out of your basement with a battery powered trash pump.  Power your well when PG&E shuts down the lines.  Climb a 30" diameter tree with only a battery saw.  Yup, that will all work out.  

The last 29 years of my working life was on automotive manufacture of Ford engines .As such as technology progressed the use of DC servo motors came into being .One company "electro_ craft " had two city busses using two 40 HP motors on large busses that worked out real well .So this stuff is not out of the question in certain applications .For those who do not know 40 electric is much higher than 40 HP gasoline or diesel but many people like to argue about that fact --just saying   

The auto industry is much farther along on this curve than the OPE industry, and they have until 2035 before going all zero emmissions vehicles in CA. OPE simply cannot get there by 2025, and I'd expect the industry to petition the state to be allowed the same timetable as the auto manufacturers.

In addition to the fact of the equipment not being ready beyond low power/short run time applcations, the "where do the old batteries go?" question still has no answer. In order to sell the Gravely battery commercial Z, dealers have to become hazmat certified, as Gravely wants this burden to fall on the dealers rather than themselves. The battery disposal/recycle program that will surely be in place for the auto industry can hardly be created by the OPE industry.

Quote from: CUT N RUN on October 16, 2021, 07:22:11 AM
California  ( u.s.a.) is trying to pass laws banning the sale of small gas engines, ( if they havent already )- lawnmowers, generators , chainsaws , etc. starting in 2024 . ( and maybe sooner ) Landscaper companies  are not happy.... how many batteries will it take to mow all day long ? not to mention the initial cost of replacing their equipment.

I feel my country is going this way, we are doing the 2035 zero emissions in the automobile industry too. I've been hoarding any kind of combustion engines I can as spare parts. I need to buy a new  truck again in a couple years, I want a tundra 8 cylinder but now they only make them in v6 with turbo and that just don't last as long as a base gas engine. Hopefully I can find a 2020ish model with very low KMs

Yep....heard that about the Tundras. Find the newest V-8 you can find and hang on to it. My ex has been leasing one and I told her she needs to hang on to it. But she's downsizing and got essentially out of livestock.....so it's probably going to be turned back in at the end of the lease....pity.:-\

Kevin

Quote from: Spike60 on October 17, 2021, 06:53:09 AM
The auto industry is much farther along on this curve than the OPE industry, and they have until 2035 before going all zero emmissions vehicles in CA. OPE simply cannot get there by 2025, and I'd expect the industry to petition the state to be allowed the same timetable as the auto manufacturers.

In addition to the fact of the equipment not being ready beyond low power/short run time applcations, the "where do the old batteries go?" question still has no answer. In order to sell the Gravely battery commercial Z, dealers have to become hazmat certified, as Gravely wants this burden to fall on the dealers rather than themselves. The battery disposal/recycle program that will surely be in place for the auto industry can hardly be created by the OPE industry.

This is a real problem with E-cars....where do all those dead batteries go? Is it gonna be like nuclear waste and they get sealed up in concrete tombs and buried in the desert??

The 'greenies' have no concept on the resources in mining and elsewhere to make those E-car batteries.....anything but 'green'.

But ya know....we can all float down the River Denial together.....kill internal combustion engines and throw the baby out with the bath water.

Kevin