I am truly missing burning wood, husband not as much but we upgraded from a 22 ton log splitter to a wood processor to make it easier cleaning up down tree tops from logging and we are selling that firewood. We have 60 acres, unlimited supply of wood. We are now currently all electric at .55 cent at last months bill of 2304 kwh. (Which I have to shop around every year for a decent rate). We have a heat pump which saves but when that big furnace comes on, hold onto your wallet! When we had an old wood burner we saved but that unit was free except converting duct work and chimney. With the OWB we want to heat the house, add heat to 6 car garage, hot tub, hot water tank and possibly use it for dryer (somehow). Figure approx 2600 sq ft home plus garage, somewhat drafty and chilly as I leave it at 65. Figure we will be at least 10-12k for OWB and installation. How long do you think it will take to recoup the cost and start saving $$?
Traci,welcome to the forum.
I have not really priced them OWB since 2007,when I had my installed. From what I read,you will need a big one. I have a Heatmor that takes a 54 inch stick. I had my installed,as what you want done, for $12000. I don't think you can get all that you need for the price you posted,installed.
I installed a Garn in 2009. I did all the installation work my self other than the spray foam work. When it was said and done I had $30,000 in the system. I heat a big three story house pretty well sealed up heat my domestic water year around and a 30 X 60 shop with it. I burn 15-20 cord a year. Just last Dec the Garn started leaking water. I kept adding to get it to get threw until May after planting season. Got it repaired and back up and running by the first of Aug when it was said and done I put another $3,000 in it to get back up and going. I also have and unlimited amount of {FREE} wood but trying to find help to make it into firewood is a problem in my area. Looking back on it its nice to run the house warmer than if I was buying propane but I wouldn't do it again knowing what I do today. Good luck on what ever way you decide to go.
here is what i have found.
Wood Heating | Forestry | USU (http://www.forestry.usu.edu/forest-products/wood-heating/)
Pine, Lodgepole = 21,100,000 BTU per cord
Oak, Red = 24,600,000 BTU per cord
Pellets, 1 ton = 16,800,000 BTU per ton
Natural Gas, 1 therm = 100,000 BTU
Outside temp = 40 to 20 for November = 225 Therms
1960's 3 bedroom block house, good attic insulation, POOR wall insulation
Blocks are 8x8x16
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/27421/FLIR0091.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1572295021)
if a cord of wood is $200 for Lodgepole i do better with Natural Gas
Break even is at $150 per Cord
I have to buy my wood. only have 1.5 acres
the OWB will supply a constant heat that may flow through the air ducts.
next year will be installing either the CB 750 edge or the CB Pellet burner with extra hopper
Heating:
House
20x21 attached two car garage
Hot tub in garage
Hot water - not summer
30x20 work shop
10x20 chicken coup
Thank you all for your input. As much as I don't want to accept the numbers, my total electric for the year ended up being $2600 not heating garage but that isnt necessary. Even if I were to cut that in half, it would take me at least 10-15 years. Im thinking my wood burning days are over except for an occassional camp fire.
Burning/cutting wood first and foremost has to be something you really enjoy.
I'm retired and dabble in wood several days a week for exercise, enjoyable hobby and the benefit the use of a free resource.
60 acres is most likely a lifetime supply of firewood but if process time is limited then you may want to explore other options.
Yes I agree, the initial cost of OWB's are ridiculous.
We have had out door boilers since 1999, before that forced air wood in the houses and shop. The wood is free and as long as I'm able , I'll stick with the outside boiler , would hate to think of a propane bill for 2 houses and 2 large garages.
J5
Where do you guys get "free" wood?
I dont buy wood but my firewood is far from free... Between the chainsaw, chains, bars, fuel, oil, splitter, tractor, winch, time, etc it ain't free.
Closest thing I had to "free" wood is when I ran CTL processor for a guy and would drop 2' blocks into my truck directly from the stump. But even that had a cost because I had to drive my own truck to the woods instead of my car or carpooling.
I couldn't make a boiler work on paper either. However very happy with the savings from an outdoor forced air unit I got used.
For what you describe, best money is probably in insulation...
True , nothing is free in this world . Way I see it you own the land / wood , it requires up keep, dead trees, blow downs ,etc the normal property stuff you have to do if you own land. A great way to feed a boiler, but if I had to buy my wood , the calculator would have to come out to do some comparing.
J 5
If we had natural gas available I'd sell firewood to pay the gas bill. I'm tired of feeding the OWB.
We have all supplies plus more than we need, including chainsaw, log chains, blades, sharpeners, dozer, skidder, excavator, morooka for hauling from back of woods to front, just bought a wood processor and elevator but most of this was collected over the years and can sell when done with it. We are prepping our land to sell about 40 acres but before we can do this, we have over 500 tree tops to sell as firewood so it just made sense (at first thought) to be burning it too. LOL, so true....nothing is free!
For my opinion owb's are not where it's at. Upfront expense, maintenance and efficiency turn me off. I think you could compare costs yourself with wood vs. propane and so on. Even though you have a large space maybe 2 good wood stoves might handle it especially since you have the wood. Of course first good investment is usually in energy efficiency improvements to the structure.
bluthum,don't group all oWB together. There is one brand,if someone gave me,I would not take it. I am not saying mine is the best,but I do know it's better than some.
If I were to run into a good used one at a very good price, what boiler should be avoided or suggested?
Heatmor is very good. About the only problem I have ever heard of is the jacket cracking when people let them run away and overheat- operator error. We've had ours for 10 years I think. I've replaced a blower motor and a couple of grates. It does get old loading it sometimes. Firewood is never truly "free", but I look at it as a fringe benefit of my job. It takes me a fairly minimal amount of work to put my wood up, as I usually collect dead standing softwoods, dump them in front of the stove, and then block them up so I only handle it once. If I was cutting it, splitting it, and stacking it in a shed I'd probably tap out!😂 That's too much extra time for me. I've seen ads for an owb that the top opens, and you dump wood in with a skidloader. Now that got my interest😁
You can do a search on here. One kind will keep showing up having problems.
I have the Heatmor too. I have the old style,a very simple unit. Not much that can go wrong with it. No solenoids,led readouts,no switches. I have only had to replace blowers on mine. I have one on the way out now. I have to look up the dealer phone number. I have it somewheres. I don't call him too often. Portage and Main seem to be a good one too. I looked at that some. When I was looking for a OWB,I would be driving around and see someone outside and I would stop and ask them about the one they had. Get some real answers that way.
I've learned over the years that if you cutting firewood on your own property, there's no need to over handle it.
Stack it right where you cut it then when it's needed, load on trailer and pull trailer beside boiler.
I've probably 10 cords on the property waiting to be called apon.....yes seasoned.
That's a good plan until there's 3 foot of snow on top of soft ground. No way your getting wood on the trailer and moved until the next summer. So having 10 cord stacked out in the woods is next to useless.
Now go easy on them, Chevy- not everyone lives in the land of 5' deep lake effect snow!😁
Access is always a concern. For us, it's more about can we get it out without making ruts or the sun thawing the top and making it "greasy". Been many times I've loaded in the early AM to get them out of the woods while the ground was still solid. :D
Our solution, a small woodshed and a medium sized fleet of wood hauling trailers that we try to keep full. Have a pickup bed trailer and old manure spreader full and sitting in the barn at the moment. ;D
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on December 08, 2019, 11:48:03 PM
That's a good plan until there's 3 foot of snow on top of soft ground. No way your getting wood on the trailer and moved until the next summer. So having 10 cord stacked out in the woods is next to useless.
That's possibly a little " glass half empty " .
I'm 59 yrs old and looking for less handling and giving the OP some suggestions.
My building has about 5 cords in it that I've not touched in several years.
I simply drive up to a stack that's been seasoned, throw on trailer, park beside boiler, repeat.
We get a blizzard ? Got it covered.
To the OP....... if you have a lifetime supply of wood, your way ahead of most.
Interesting thread. I'm building a cabin and thought an OWB would be nice (clean and such) compared to a wood stove. But I'm going to just be a weekend user of it so an OWB would not be ideal. But still interesting to know the numbers. Since I got two nice (free) wood stoves, I'm ahead of the game!
As far as firewood storage, IF I had a place to put them, I could get about 18 IBCs for free. Either cut the tops off the plastic or just remove all together. Then, use a set of forks to pick it up from wherever and drop on a trailer. If you have enough reach, stack them to save even more floor space.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20191130_163955.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575913953)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19307/20191119_151749.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1575914080)
iBC bins are working out well for us too.
Can I ask roughly what these racks cost and the quantity of firewood they hold?
Thanks.
IBC stands for Intermediate Bulk Container. Plastic containers inside them hold 1000 litres. They are used anywhere that a bulk container of fluid is needed.
Greenhouses, manufacturing plants, farms, etc.
I found a dozen at an asphalt plant for 100 bucks. The difficult part is to dispose of the poly 'jug', as it had held butanol. If you can find them on Craigs list or Kijiji, look for ones that are food grade plastic. They're easier to either recycle or repurpose.
A neat stack in one holds roughly 1/3 of a cord and weighs (green and depending on species) about 1300 lbs.
Once it has set out in the sun and wind for a summer, it'll weigh much less.
I included this info here because many people get really, completely, totally fed up with forever feeding an OWB. These IBC bins will drastically reduce anyone's handling of firewood, which will slant the decision/equation.
Quote from: Rebarb on December 09, 2019, 10:11:56 AMThat's possibly a little " glass half empty " .
Possible but I speak from experience. Currently I have a winters worth or more of wood cut/split/stacked out in the woods and there is 3 foot of snow with a foot of mud underneath making accessing it impossible.
Thankfully I have other wood up by the stove. But I would never want to rely on having wood stacked out in the woods.
an idea on the IBC,
remove the plastic container from the frame
fill the frame with wood
cut the top off the plastic.
the use the top as a cover for the firewood to keep moisture off
use the bottom for ??
Quote from: Traci on December 05, 2019, 09:12:04 AM
I am truly missing burning wood, husband not as much but we upgraded from a 22 ton log splitter to a wood processor to make it easier cleaning up down tree tops from logging and we are selling that firewood. We have 60 acres, unlimited supply of wood. We are now currently all electric at .55 cent at last months bill of 2304 kwh. (Which I have to shop around every year for a decent rate). We have a heat pump which saves but when that big furnace comes on, hold onto your wallet! When we had an old wood burner we saved but that unit was free except converting duct work and chimney. With the OWB we want to heat the house, add heat to 6 car garage, hot tub, hot water tank and possibly use it for dryer (somehow). Figure approx 2600 sq ft home plus garage, somewhat drafty and chilly as I leave it at 65. Figure we will be at least 10-12k for OWB and installation. How long do you think it will take to recoup the cost and start saving $$?
I just recently built a house and piped the floor for connection to an OWB which i plan to install in the future. I priced out a central air heat pump system and ductless heat pump system and the OWB wasn't much more expensive (although this was me doing most of the install). Your estimate is in the ballpark... here in Canada things are going to cost me about $15000 for an OWB set up.
This is a multi faceted topic ... cost / payback / work / time / system flexibility etc.... you could argue every which way. If all you want is some wood heat perhaps installing a nice wood stove in the house would fit the bill, but if you absolutely need to heat all your out buildings then this changes things. Does your income depend on heating these areas...if you work in the shop on a daily basis it might start being worth it. If the payback is overshadowing the usefulness of the system its probly not a good place to put your money.
Some nice posts on here. Cutting and leaving in the woods was never an option for knee deep snow and ice with steep hills....thanks, but no thanks. Back in the day stacked half the length of our 0.25 mi driveway kinda creating a rustic fence. Also helped with snow drift. I will say though, the older I get, the more I crave a warmer climate.
Traci,
I have been using CB 6048 since 2006. If you were to look at what the cost of heating oil did over the past 14 years I pretty much hit the bell shaped curve, not that I was trying or ever calculated that. OWB were half the cost then compared to current prices. If your motivation is saving money you are doomed to fail. Having the finances on hand and being honest about your motivation is important. Finding a good professional installer is critical in order to get all the benefits you can from burning wood. I heat my house and domestic hot water as well as having under floor heat in the tiled areas of the house and capability of heating one of my barns. You might as well have some luxury if you are going to work that hard for your heat. Let us know what you decide, in the mean time I will try to figure out what is next for me being 65 and using a boiler that has to fail sometime.
Wood Shed, I got my P&M OWB about the same time you got your OWB and aside from the boilers being much cheaper then oil was much higher so a return on investment was realistic, I don't think it is any longer, if/when mine needs serious repairs it will get scraped and not replaced. On the other hand if you just want one and will enjoy cutting wood and tending it the return for most people is better than you get from your golf equipment.
The gassification stoves really changed a lot of things. I wanted a boiler until the gassifiers became a requirement. In addition to the extra price and complication, I would have to change my whole wood handling practices. I burn wood because it is simple and affordable for me with my Bryan forced air unit and waste wood. The new OWBs look like neither of those...
Yes, I know they burn less wood, but for me, the wood savings don't offset the extra labor. Especially when most of my firewood is a byproduct of other activities!
thinking of starting a poll
please put your suggestions here. I do not want to hijack this thread
Should i do a poll on OWB in Firewood and Wood Heating (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=108725.new#top)
I had $10K+ in my Portage & Main when I put it in back in 2014 - it's a good unit; no complaints. The ROI analysis is all a function of the alternative costs. In the Duluth area I'm in winter of 2013, propane was over $5/gal - if you could get it! At those prices, the ROI is easy - for my place, break even was 3-4 years. Of course, since I jumped in, propane has been cheap ($1.45/gal) and plentiful. My break even is now 7-10 years and that only works if I consider my other expenses (saws, splitter, tractor, sheds, chiropractor, TIME, etc) a sunk cost and exclude them from the analysis. But, I have no regrets and love the excuse to be outdoors and have some measure of energy independence - it's a lifestyle.
started the poll
what Out Door Wood Furnace do you use in Firewood and Wood Heating (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=108793.0)