Hey guys, i usually sticker one log at a time. getting too many logs, and not all great for lumber, so thought i would start some drying pallet. i air dry and then bring stacks into my conditioned shop, or they got to the container that is also conditioned with DH in the warmer months. i tend to band them and can tell how dry they are at least in part based on the slack that develops in the band. my question is what are the sizes of pallets that you use and how are they made. i remember seeing them at @customsawyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1861) place and spoke with @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) . thought i would hear from them again and a few others of you. i will make a solar kiln in the future if that makes a difference. i assume 42 to 48 inches deep, 8 to 10 feet long. what spacing? I was thinking 18 to 20 inches . how tall. i have forks so I assume at least 4 inches unless 6 or more is better. more boards on top and brace boards on the bottom like a pallet? pics would be great. also any particular wood to use or stay away from? @GeneWengert-WoodDoc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=20498) @WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370) @Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) and others!
I use 8 foot open bottom pallets or skids, with 2x4's nailed on edge every 16 inches to give 3.5 clearance for forks. That spacing seems to work best for me. No bottom on the pallets as that restricts airflow to the top layer of whatever bundle of lumber it is placed on. I use standard 1x's for the planking, and mine are 42 inches wide.
42" wide is important because most flatbed truckers don't want to have to deal with two 4 foot wide pallets which it not situated properly on their deck, will cause them to go over width.
I spray painted a pattern on our concrete floor, so it makes assembly much faster that having to use a tape measure.
Mine are very similar to YH's except that I do not ship pallets of wood on trucks so mine are 48" wide vs 42" wide to maximize the loads in the kiln. The runners are on 16" centers so I have two sizes. 7 runners which gives a 96" long pallet or 8 runners which gives a 112" long pallet. This allows me to easily dry 8' or 9' or 10' lumber. I can only dry to a max of 10'6" boards in my kiln, so I do not deal with any hardwood lumber longer than 10'6" that will be ultimately kiln dried. A man has to draw a line somewhere :). If they want it longer I say, "Call Jake".
I make my pallets 48 inches wide by 12.5 long and 16.5 feet long with 16 inches spacing on the 2x4 bottom boards like the others do .But I cut my stickers 50 inches long so they over hang each side so I can keep them in line because I stack right off the mill and I work alone.Last year I made my stickers 1inch by 1 inch but this year I am making them 1and 3 eights thick so I can get my pallet forks in between the layers .I have used oak ,ash,ewp,and spruce to make my 2x4 pallets and stack them four feet high with lumber and usually put three stacks on top of them.
My pallets are only 32" wide, because that's what fits my forks. I'm also sawing less lumber with my manual mill, so it all works out. My runners are 2x4' with 1x6(ish) top and bottom. I prefer pallets to skids, but I do use some skids as well. 18" oc with the staterter row of stickers nailed on. 8,10, and 12 feet long. A few shot ones for odds and ends. Everything goes on a pallet or a skid, then it's all easy to move.
Here's a whole thread on this subject from last year. Mine are 46"x 4',6',8'.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=101389.msg1609081#msg1609081 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=101389.msg1609081#msg1609081)
A semi trailer deck and most long goosneck trailer decks are 8' wide so with 46" I can get one on each side with a couple inches to spare.
thanks @Brad_bb (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=6191) it is motivational to see all the uniform pallets and I followed one thread to another and learned lots. thanks all.
I think @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) 's excuse of making them 42" wide because of trucking issues is probably false. I think it has more to do with his being afraid of "beer canning" his kiln!!! ;D ;D
Merry Christmas, Robert!!
@Tom the Sawyer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=9572) we have a pallet co. here in town, but unless I build a bunch, not sure if they want to do it. I took care of one of there employees a few weeks back. so they were about 60 buck a piece? how long ago. do you think cotton wood would be ok. I know it is used for pallets, is it strong enough in your opinion for this application. I guess with banding, all the wood helps support itself.
I make mine 48" x 96 usually. longer if necessary but 8' usually works.
I make all my stickers 42". That way I can stack all on my 48" wide skids and not have anything hanging over. The few times I end up with stuff hanging over I always manage to hook it either with my leg or the tractor tire.
The tractor tire makes me mad. The leg usually makes me give blood :) Neither of which I enjoy doing.
Thanks gentleman, I do plan to measure my forks. I want to make sure to have the pallet wider than my forks are long so I do not catch on a pallet or concrete wall on the back side with a protruding fork. When allowed by the weather, I am pouring sidewalks along my retaining walls and the steel reinforcing is 8 feet x 20 feet, so cut in half is 48 inches + a couple inches so the steel is not against the edge of the concrete. I plan to stack these pallets to air dry on the concrete.
Quote from: doc henderson on December 16, 2019, 08:45:31 AMdo you think cotton wood would be ok.
That's what I used for mine, both for bottom boards and decking. No issues. The only time strength should be required is when lifting a loaded pallet with forks as then the entire weight is bearing on the deck boards that are in contact with the forks. This hasn't been a problem for me lifting stacks that weigh 3000lbs+. I just try to keep the forks close to the bottom boards/stickers rather than in the middle of the span. I used 7/8" thick boards for the decking with a few inches spacing between each one.
I took Yellowhammer's advice of spray painting a pattern and it works great. But instead of the floor I painted it on my deckover trailer, which gave a nice working height.
I made pallets to hold 6, 8, 10, and 12' lumber. The 8 and 12' pallets are 16" on center. The others were something like 18" on center because that's how the spacing worked out. In hindsight I should have used the same spacing on all of them because the way I did it I can't stack a 6' pallet on top of an 8' (or 12') pallet because the stickers don't quite line up.
I'm also thinking WDH has a good idea with 9' pallets. I cut predominantly hardwoods and around here it's rare to find a trunk longer than 10' before the first crotch. I probably cut more 6' logs than anything else and I see quite a few logs that won't quite make 10' so I end up cutting a chunk off to make them 8'6".
Alan
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041)
I think mine were made in the March of 2018. They had a minimum order of 10, so I ordered 8 - 8' and 2 - 12', each 44" deep with the slats on 16" centers. Had I been more aware, I might have asked what grade of lumber they were using, I think it was #2 common at best. I am sure they are adequate for the function but I would probably have used better quality. I think that most pallets are built for a single use (disposable), whereas I would expect to get multiple uses out of my pallets.
As far as cottonwood, I think it would be fine. I know of a sawmill that builds heavy-duty custom pallets for overseas shipment of heavy equipment (heat treated and certified) and they use both cottonwood and white (burr) oak, depending on the design specifications. I ended up with a half a dozen cottonwood logs that weren't likely to chosen by anyone for a project, some of them had ring shake. One of the better ones was milled up for a university sculpture class. I milled two of the worst ones to use for stickers and they are drying now. We'll see how those turn out.
I just make mine out of our kiln dried, planed to a consistent thickness, cull wood and 2x4's. Lay it out on the floor pattern and slam them together with a Paslode nail gun set on "really fast." :D
Since there is no bottom on the skids, the pallet runners should align with the stickers in the sticked wood packs, so the pallet acts like a single layer of stickered wood, and there is no load imparted to the pallet when its lifted. So they can be stacked as high as you want, and lifted with no damage. So basically, the 2x4's serve as really tall stickers. Sometimes I'll use 4x4's if the wood is not stickers stain prone.
Since the runners are only 1.5" wide, they don't sticker stain the wood below, whereas with a conventional pallet, it would.
We go through lots of these, and try not to stack more than about 800 bdft per unit, or about the height of the backstop of our forklift. We've found that if significantly more than that is stacked, there will be issues with the green wood called stack bow, and there will be issues with the dead stacked, non planed wood where the bundles don't like to stack on top of each other well.
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Another thing. If you have a kiln, make the runners that are on the 16" centers a bit more than 4" high. This way, it is easy to plug the holes between the runners with two pieces of the 2" pink foam insulation so that the air flows between the stickered layers and not in the large holes between the pallet runners. If the runners are even a bit less than 4" high, two pieces of foam will not fit.
In the pic below, you can see the two pieces of the 2" thick pink foam plugging up the space between the runners where the top pallet sits on the bottom pallet.
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I want to make them myself so that I can control the quality. I want a higher quality than the pallet company probably has material for. I doubt they are carrying 5/4, and I want to plane it smooth to keep cobwebs and dust from accumulating too readily. I want to know my stringers are solid when I plane them 1.5" or 1.75". The stringers I usually see on pallets are in the 1"-1.375" range. You're not making them in too large of quantities, so it's not bad. Sawyers usually have enough 8'ers with a defect that make them good for 1 or a pair of stringers. I also get some ash boards that are wormy, so not too pretty, but still plenty strong to use for top boards.
A agree, I make mine myself. I don't make them one at a time, I stage enough components for a half a dozen and knock them out. It's a great way to reutilize scrap boards, and a perfect assembly line style task.
It will be gratifying to have 6 or so matching pallets. I have put off milling about 60 cedar logs. I think with this, I would knock them out since I will be all set to stack and sticker. for 1 log of a species, I may still stack some the way I have in the past. thanks to all, and further ideas are welcome. busy this time of the year, but I think I will mill the wood and then be set to assemble in the shop when things are cold, and slow down at work.
I don't know where you're planning to store them, but I keep them in my pole barn. It's either dry enough or I get just enough air flow that I don't get mold 97% of the time. June might be the only time when it's hot and humid and if the wood is wet. I sticker stack boards on the pallets to a certain height, then put a new pallet on top of that stack and work on filling that one. If I'm not going to be adding to the stack for awhile, I try to finish off a layer, then stack some weight on the pallet with maybe another pallet of material, or maybe a few big cants. I have separate pallets for Walnut, Ash, and Cherry. I do have a couple mixed species pallets that I have small quantities of each like Honey locust, white oak, Osage, Mulberry. I have a forklift to lift cants and pallets. If I then need to get stack on an unfinished stack later, I take them down to expose that stack. Whenever I go to have them kiln dried, I'd obviously have to separate those and figure out what species can be dried with each other. If I use my own solar kiln that I'm planning, maybe I wouldn't have to separate? Not sure.
FYI I took others advice on here and I screw stickers to the pallet on top of all the stringers.
When the average MC of lumber is over 30% MC, air flow affects the speed of drying, which, if air flow values vary in different locations within the stack, so will the drying MC. Air flow is expensive. Air going through the space of a pallet or even 4x4s does little benefit with respect to drying.
So...when using pallets or even when using 4x4s as spacers, and when drying above 30% MC, and if uniform, fast drying is desired, then block the space. I have seen a 1x4 nailed temporarily on the edge. I have seen styrofoam blocks pushed into each space. I have seen canvas stapled on the edges. See WDH message 14 above.
Note in air drying, we would not block the spaces...just in the kiln or similar equipment with fans.
@WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370)
That picture is an excellent example of how baffling should be done!! Good Job!! 8)
But, you can't see the logo :D.
I'm baffled.
I went to pallets a couple of years ago. I was already using 39" stickers before I build my first pallet so I stuck with it. The reasoning behind that width was the length of the forks on the smallest tractor around here. I also found that with 39", one can easily make two stacks on a standard car hauler trailer with a few inches to spare.
I make my pallets out of 2bys and 1bys, all planed to that same thickness on each pallet. I have a few that the deck boards and 3/4" and a few that are a full 1". I usually use what most would say are cull boards and just plane until they are all the same. For the spacing I use 24" for the runners because that was what my first solar kiln had for joist spacing. 24" also lines up with most car hauler cross members.
made a prototype pallet. full dimension hackberry 2x4 bases and 1x4" tops. 42 inches deep to match my forks. and this one is 6 feet long for stair treads I milled for my cousin Mike. my standard will be 9 feet long. The spacing is 18 inch centers so add 2 inches on each, i.e. 74" (6 foot 2 inches).
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son William helping. put some titebond 3 on there for stiffness to prevent torqueing.
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will sticker tomorrow.
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18 treads @ 11.25" x 1.75" x 6 foot.
Well done.
is this how you do it. i think so. i got my cousin and his wife to stack and sticker the oak stair treads as i pretended to take pictures.
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the gray stain is from one night sitting on my skid forks. should plane out. inch and 7/8th, plane down to 1.5 ". if it seems like a "little ditty", it is Mike and Diane. :D :D :D
"Two American kids doin' the best they can".
Doc, did you build your pallets from green hackberry, or dry it first? I have been using screws to attach the flat boards, had not thought of using glue.
it had dried for a "few days" :D so it will dry in pallet form. for now this will be for air drying until I get a kiln built. this is a prototype. this is the dimension I decided on. some will be 9 foot 2 inches. but a multiple of the 18 inch on center spacing. so they can stack. but yes green. I found my big stapler and will add staples as I think they hold better. I though the glue might keep the pallet from torqueing and loosening the nails. a combo of screws and nails might be an idea. so it cannot pull apart and has shear strength. could use ring shank nails as well.
I like screws as they hold well, you can pull out a gap with your drill, and if you need to, just unscrew and things fall apart.
I am a screwy gluey guy too. but screws will break if sheared but not pull out, nails the opposite, no shear but pull out. could not find my larger staple gun at the time. i could put one screw between the nails i guess! love screws. I use the dewalt impact guns to drive.
up to 3 of the 9 foot 2 inch and the 1 of the 6 foot 2 inch. have enough of the hackberry parts to make another 6 footer or even a 86 incher.
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Found my big staple gun so switched to glue and staples.
did the layout on the drive. set up on cut lines, and marked the bolster parts with a black sharpie. might make a jig. I have not asked, but my wife have difficulty picking a spray paint color she would want on our driveway!!! :) :) :)
What did you use for the first row of stickers?
hackberry. same as the pallets 3/4 inch.
I use those Green deck screws from Lowe's with the Torx head, 2.5". They work well. No glue for me. The middle deck boards you put on there, I only screw the ends of those. The interior ones don't really need to be fastened to the stringers. When you lift with your forks, there's not pressure on the stringers. When you set the stack down, it's in compression. Someone else on here clued me into that tip, but I can't remember who.
I like screws because if I ever need to fix, rebuild, or reuse the material from a pallet, I can remove the screws.
i did not fasten my first stringer (sticker), like some, to the pallet, i am still in the prototype stage.
Got some concrete poured yesterday, ahead of the rain that did not come last pm. I post it here cause the "sidewalk" below the retaining wall that separates family and dad land, will also be for my new pallets full of wood as well. my pallets are 42" deep to match my pallet forks, and the sidewalks are 54 inches deep to use the most of the wire matts, 8 x 20, cut in half + 3 inches on each side. pinned to the wall. we are stamping with wood grain for looks and traction. so we did every other section so we could stamp, and will come back and fill in-between so it will look mitered on the corner/angle changes without messing up the stamping.
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My cousins oak stair treads under cover, will get weight and move to the sidewalk in a week or so.
before @Southside (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) can chime in, Eddie in black, Kim in red, my son William in green. I am behind the phone camera.
that looks pretty slick.
Where do you get those stamps? Way cool!
I pay a hundred bucks to rent them for the project. you can buy a set with 2,3,4,5,and 6 feet long by 1 foot wide stamps. with floppies for little area to fill in. there are 2 each of the three longer sizes. about 600 to 800 bucks. woodgrain concrete stamps. they are a rubber/silicone compound with handles on each end.
I just scratched some initials and the date on my concrete pads :).
I'd be too cheap to get the stamps, but I like the look.
It breaks up the look of tons of concrete. It can be stained as well. It saves a little on labor since the final troweling is not done, but the stamping process begins. The guys doing it are almost artists and much more picky than me. They get a little smudge and re-do it and I am saying, "there is going to be a pallet of wood sittin on this". anyway we are having fun and it will get more of my wood stacks off the drive. It is still a home as well.
filled in the gaps today. a few sprinkles but not rain yet. now a continuous sidewalk/wood pallet area aprox. 200 linear feet.
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you can see the new darker area poured between what was done last week.
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all the forms, wire and pins, dirt work done by my son and I. Eddie and Kim came and helped with the flatwork and stamping.
update. my final pallet size ended up being 42 inches deep (the length of my forks, and good to fit a solar kiln). I make skid bottoms from full 2-inch wood, and about 3.5 inches tall. I use glue and staples to hold tight and keep from racking. the big update is the jig I made. I do spacing at 18 inches on center. I "hit the skids" On the jointer on one flat and one edge, then through the table saw to make sure they are all the same size (3.5 inches tall).
so, I mostly make 6-foot 2-inch and 9-foot 2-inch pallets. the extra 2 inches is from the skid bottoms being 2 inches thick. I also make target boards, for a local axe throwing venue, and some of the stock can be made into skid runners. the tops are also cottonwood, and about 3/4 inch by 3.5 inches wide.
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I should have got a pic with the runner in place before the tops. The old way using a tape measure on the concrete, the runner could turn or slide out from a line when putting on the top runners. this held them in place, and I lined up the ends along one of the jig pieces. I fastened the outer two first then spaced the others.
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new pallet with stickers laid in place. I laid the runner against the blocks all pushed to the far side. I did check for square, and the movement of the runners to lay in place, then mark and roll over to put the glue and roll back. not a movement. made it look great. all cottonwood, the Kansas State tree. I do plan to start rolling some copper naphthenate on the runner bottoms to see if they last longer. I try to set them on concrete, not dirt. Yeah! :sunny: :thumbsup: ffsmiley
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stacked and stickered
Typically, we use 8' and 16' pallets, but lately we have been sawing more 12' lumber for folks. Leftovers after the order is filled need to be sticker stacked or used. Stacking them on 16' pallets is not the best option, although that is what we've been doing.
The next slow day we'll probably make a few 12' pallets and a base to stack them on.