@WV Sawmiller (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) , can you see if you can interview and take pics of your buddies machine and process. I have seen video, and would like to try, but not die. high voltage is to be respected!
Doc,
I just meet him at our local flea market and never been to his house which is 20-25 miles from me. I will ask him if he has a picture or try to get one of it if I'm ever there. I think his wife will be buying some basswood from me soon.
thanks Howard. Maybe he would like to join the forum and school us all. :o :o :o :D
My Dad was a licensed electrician working in power company substations with high voltage. In the service I worked on microwave and some radar installations using high powered klystrons. Also worked around voltages where arc flash was a concern. I think I have a good working knowledge of what can happen with high voltage toys. Safety precautions need to be extreme when working with the voltages a junk microwave oven can produce. Knowledge of what kind of insulation is sufficient is paramount. Even test equipment is suspect. Ever seen a cheap multi-meter explode?
While I think fracking is something interesting that can be pursued with caution, I don't think the how to's should be discussed on a open forum. Some folks don't have a appreciation of the dangers of super high voltage.
Another one dies this spring.
Widow of Milton man warns of “wood fracking†dangers (https://www.nbc15.com/2020/07/03/widow-of-milton-man-warns-of-wood-fracking-dangers/)
good points Larry. this is why I would like to learn from someone that has knowledge and not just cuhonnas. I do not want to learn the hard way! :o :o :o
" I don't think the how to's should be discussed on a open forum."
I disagree with this pretty strongly. More knowledge is always better than less knowledge, and it's up to every individual to evaluate the risks themselves. Every aspect of this forum is dedicated to activities that carry a risk of death and injury that tops OSHA's charts, and that's with professionals doing the work. Taking away information can only increase the risks.
Neon light drivers are much safer. Plus you never hold the arch when on. If set up properly IMO you set both electrodes and let go. Then switch on. Some that use the microwave transformers use the dial power ones. They start it on low and then increase the power.
WVs guy seems to do a good job, and not dead yet. everything I do in life has risk.
He's not dead but he says he has been shocked a time or two which may explain his current mental sate - or may be he was crazy before. :D
maybe if he reverses the polarity, he will be sane again?? not recommended, helps to be a little off. :D :D
Just remember: Crazy, not Stupid.
Their is a BIG difference!
My friends say I'm crazy, and only those that know me say I am not stupid. Ignorant, yes. Stupid, no. Ignorance can be taught better. Stupid is forever.
When I do if I use an old oil burner transformer. 10,000 volts but only .023 milliamps. I have been ticked a time or two but what works great is clamping the two leads in place and stepping back and turning the power on.
All that said, it gets old and it can be overdone.
Dave
I have no idea what is being discussed in this thread... but I'm intrigued. Can anyone enlighten me?
(Nevermind - I found the related threads)
I met a new customer that does it. Saw it done to a cedar board while he was dialing up the power slow. It looks like controlled lightning moving down the board and very beautiful and mesmerizing.
They called in Frackning.
hugs, brandi
@WV Sawmiller (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28064) do you have pics?
Doc,
The only pictures I have are of the results - not the process.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/30_and_36_inch_long_Red_Oak_Benches_with_Lichtenburg_engraving~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1683899342)
Which of you would go out and stand beneath a lone pine in the middle of a barren field during a major thunder storm?
Now that's funny right there! And fairly accurate too! :D
We had a customer (biker chick) several years ago who bought quite a bit of wood from us. She used to do wood burning and then got into this process along with epoxy resin. She stayed busy making things for clients and then she moved to Utah.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/IMG_4004.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1584910578)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/IMG_3967.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1582414641)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/IMG_3966.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1582414642)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/IMG_3968.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1582414643)
The bottom photos are of a bar she did somewhere in SW Fl. From what I've read about it, it (Tom) is a good way to get killed. The results, assuming one survives, are pretty spectacular.
WI Couple Died From Electrocution After Attempting Fractal Wood Burning (https://www.insider.com/wisconsin-couple-died-from-electrocution-after-attempting-fractal-wood-burning-2022-4)
Plus to me, some of it is overdone and ugly. ::)
We had some customers in the past do it, some got "knocked to the ground" some just quit, and some I've never seem again. I talked to the ones who were doing it at length to determine their electrical awareness and skill level, as well as their technique. None seemed to be using proper electrical safety precautions as they described their attempts to me. None were using a proper remote deadman switch. None were using proper electrical PP&E. One said he bought his Lichtenberg set online and so it was "Safe."
There seem to be two tiers of technique an operator progress through. A purely remote technique that can be managed relatively easily in terms of safety, and once they get bored of that, then a manual, hands on stage which is much more dangerous but gives much better results. The manual hands on technique involves moving the electrodes across the wood piece, in effect like a lightning pen, and the operator can do some pretty amazing stuff like write names, draw lake outlines, and stencil. However, it's by far the most dangerous and it also produces the best results.
One guy I talked to was hand holding his electrode wearing only a single set of rubber electrical protective gloves he ordered from Amazon. He was painting electrolyte solution with one hand and holding the energized electrode in the other, burning people's names on wooden coffee cups. I verbally laid into him in front of his wife at our shop and let them both know that they better get his last will and testament in order.
The most common response I get from our customers is they say if they "get hit" it will be no worse than an electric cattle fence.
I don't do it. I take my wood to a guy who does it for me. I think he said he used the transformer out of a microwave oven. Others use transformers out of neon signs. I am told the neon sings have a much lower wattage (Amperage?).
I saw a man at our local flea market selling jewelry boxes he had made and engraved. He said he used a low voltage kit and told me about the neon sign. He also filled his with colored epoxy to make the etching stand out more.
volts x amps = watts
I have considered it, but not sure who to trust to teach and build/buy a unit. I could get pics of a pattern and just laser engrave it on wood with CO2 laser. Lost my hard drive (computer cannot see it) after a power outage a few days back. not good at graduation time.
We had a Lichtenberg guy show up yesterday, about 30 years old, barefoot. ::) He brought some samples and I thought about this post.
The problem I see is what happened yesterday, that the patterns are pretty random and other than the "Oh, it looks cool" that people blurted out first, then they immediately ask "What's it supposed to be?"
I like Doc's idea, use a laser engraver to match the look while actually making a design that fits the customer and becomes a sellable product, not just a novelty.
Down at the voltages and frequencies we usually work with I have a fair understanding of how to stay out of the circuit. playing with stuff like that, it is beginning to "broadcast" power. I have no desire to be a ground. I accidentally did a little bit of that with the high frequency glue machines in the furniture and cabinet shops. Management didn't consider it a feature :D.
A stick welder or plasma cutter wouldn't do the same thing?
I'm no electrician but I think you are changing voltage and amperage but not frequency in the welder and cutter. A microwave and neon transformer are putting out in the thousands of cycles per second frequency vs 60 cycles/second, high voltage in the thousands, low amps milliamps, but i think the microwave is far more milliamps than the neon. Your personal wiring runs at way lower and fries if you get into the circuit.
Quote from: DMcCoy on May 18, 2023, 07:56:16 AM
A stick welder or plasma cutter wouldn't do the same thing?
Welders generally increase the current / reduce the voltage. The voltage isn't enough to jump the insulation. The microwave / neon is high voltage with lower current. But it only takes .02 Amps to kill you if it gets you in the wrong way, and the high voltage can break through insulation or track along a damp surface.
Quote from: Ianab on May 18, 2023, 03:22:32 PM
Quote from: DMcCoy on May 18, 2023, 07:56:16 AM
A stick welder or plasma cutter wouldn't do the same thing?
Welders generally increase the current / reduce the voltage. The voltage isn't enough to jump the insulation. The microwave / neon is high voltage with lower current. But it only takes .02 Amps to kill you if it gets you in the wrong way, and the high voltage can break through insulation or track along a damp surface.
You are right DMcCoy. It is so simple of a process and to set up you feel safe and only 1 movement of complacency and you are dead. I have 2 fail safes that need to be on before I move the connections. Both completely kill the power. When I pack up my machine take parts out to it cannot be just plugged back in. Mty set up uses a Neon sign power supply.
.
In 1980 I received my electrical license and have been working with live circuits many time a week since then.
I have been knocked on my can while working on a radio station repair with relatively lower voltage than you are talking about with these transformers used to burn wood.
Even with my experience and attention to detail, I would never handle voltages as high as you all are talking about.
When I watch electric utility linemen working with those wires at thousands of volts, they are covered with hard hat, rubber shoulder cape, rubber sleeves, special gloves, all the while up in the air in a fiberglass non conducting bucket. They have 4 and 5 foot handles (poles) to reach out to "touch" live wires and make connections, etc.
If you can find a machine to burn your wood that is underwriters approved, you may consider it perhaps safer as it has gone thru design and testing to very high standards. Perhaps one of you can build and have approved a machine to market to the professional shops for their use in burning projects in a safe manor.
Voltage is like water pressure. The higher the voltage the higher the potential to do work (or damage).
If you look closely at wire insulation, many types of insulation have very specific voltage stated on that insulation. Voltages above that stated level can and often do break down the insulation and allow voltage to "leak" out. That voltage is looking for a shorter circuit route to return to its source, normally some sort of ground. There is no way to forecast where that insulation breakdown will be. That leak could very well be thru your body. As stated by Ianab .
Yes, Moisture, chemicals and concrete floors can contribute to problems, even while not actually holding the leads while the power is on.
Have fun. Be careful.
.
3 or 4 years ago we ran an electrocution call. It was a guy trying fractal burning. He did not live to try it again. Young dad of a few little kids. One of my guys who I think had tried the process himself ran the call. I think he has lost interest in ever trying it again.
I have a friend that does it. I have encouraged him many times to quit, but he has not.