The Forestry Forum

I've got a problem here at the mill and need all you folks advice. I've noticed over the past ten years or so a steady decline in the quality of personal appearance in employees and applicants. It seems that the majority of under 30 applicants have assorted body hardware, tattoos, funny looking hair and sloppy clothes. We're just a sawmill and logging outfit, so we don't require a three piece suit and wing-tip shoes to come to work. We do though deal alot though with folks who stop at the mill, landowners, and assorted businesses in town. I might be from the old school, but I think that an employee's actions and appearance reflect on the employer and his/her business, either favorably or not.

I was wondering if we should institute a dress code? Now I'm not talking about safety things, like PPE, loose clothes, etc. I mean just a general employee appearance handbook. What are the legalities of such a thing? And do any of you have experience with this issue? I'm trying not to have alot of rules and regulations like a big corporation. That would bog down my business. It's getting to the point now though where I may have to go that route.

While I have been wearing the Uniform of the USAF for the last 12+ years, I have had no choice in that matter.


BUT.....

I have seen contractors on base doing work and seen the grubbyness you speak of. Even when I gou out for lunch guys are dressed in rags, scrubby shaggy heair and beards that are unkept. I guess thats the new "style" of presenting a "working mans image"

When my father went to work in the steel mill, he wore jeans and a collared shirt, changed into his work clothes at the plant, always left work looking as clean as when he got there. He always took pride in looking clean cut and decent.

I think todays kids just have a different opinion of whats "decent". I know when I look for work to get done to the house, I kinda "weed out" workers/ contractors that look crummy, drive crummy vehicles and so on. I know it really should not have a impact of how the guy works....but if it looks like poop, smells like poop.... might do poopy work.....

initating a dress and apperance code is not a bad idea, but not too sure how it's handled in this "politically correct" world we life in.

I for one, spend my money in places where the employees, as well as the facilites are clean, neat and orderly.

I know this is not much help to your direct question, just wanted to say how I looked at things....

When I go into a store, and a clerk is at the cash register with nose 'plugs', eyebrow studs, lips pierced, or tongue jewelry - I just leave my things and walk out. I shudder to see what some want to do to their body, and I just leave. I shop elsewhere, and likely don't come back.

I suspect in this day and age, it's tough to make a change to a dress code or policy that wasn't in effect when these people were hired. Don't have a suggestion as to what to do. I look at as it is your business, and your decision should be the rule. If they want to start up their own business and 'punch' themselves full of holes, that is their choice.

It is sad, IMO

I don't like it. Not at All. But what are you going to do? My Son has both ears pierced. I think he's stupid, but then again if you compare him to 90% of his generation, hes pretty tame. No eye brow holes or tongue piercings. As far as I know he has no tattoos. He's 22 years old.


Stacy Moved out when she was 18. Had a job then 2 jobs, now she is working 3 different part time Jobs and in her second year of college, all paid for by herself.  Not sure at what point it was, but soon after moving out she got two tattoos. Something on here shoulder and one of those big popular ones that looks like your lace undies are creeping out the back of yer Jeans. She is doing well. Calls home regular and visits on what I would consider an appropriate basis considering her schedule. The tattoos? I hate them. I think its shameful to disfigure your body and thats what I have always taught them.  What are you going to do?  I figure the kids are pretty normal compared to all the others I have scene.  I tried my best but won't call myself a failure because I don't consider either of them failures.  They live in a different time.  My Dad's time demanded a butch or a Princeton haircut.  That worked with me until I got into high school.  My time had hair to the shoulders and I did.  Dad Hated it. He hated that I smoked. He hated that I drank, he hated that I would not go to church after I left home. I know that Dad never once considered me a failure for not conforming to what was a very strict household, that of a minister's.  I was not at all what he thought I should be but never ever denied my right to be what I thought I should be.

I won't walk out on a clerk who does not look quite right. Now if they treat me wrong thats a different story. I really feel that walking off on someone that looks different would be like them refusing to deal with me for the same reason. 

Today during Physical Therapy there was a young gal in there that had a pierced lower lip with a jagged looking stud protruding out of it. She started huffing as she was working out. She looked at me and I grinned and said, Hey, don't point that thing at me when yer puffing like that.  She grinned back and said "don't worry, you got plenty of padding to protect you" . We finished up by talking about why we were each there and other things. The conversation made for what is usually a grueling workout into a tolerable day that passed much quicker. I gotta go again tomorrow, I wonder if she will be there? :)

I can only speak from personal experience, but, I was working at Ryder until 2001 and if you came in sporting 5 oclock shadow or facial hair or looked sloppy (never happened with me - others) the shop foreman had every right and would send you out to either fix yourself or send you home. I think the quote "freakin moron" applied to someone that it had to be mentioned to even once because appearance and conduct is drilled into you before you are even hired.

At my kid's private school noone, including adults, is expected to be seen with shirt tails out or wearing indecent or rude clothing or jewerly on their person. Mommy wearing a tongue stud is not going to be warmly welcomed. Kids are not allowed to have pierced anything and the kids wear uniforms.

Myself, I might dress with the shirt outside my pants while working cutting, but, for inside work or estimating I try to dress for success with a uniform or while working on customer's cars. I get a lot of my unform stuff from www.wearguard.com.

Read in the paper that all those mouth piercings cause gum decay among other problems.  That label on cig packages made everyone quite smoking too.  My gut feeling is that kids tend to do what the kids they hang around with do.  Once kids get into their mid 20's they start to revert back to their parents way of doing things.  The bad thing about tatoos are that they are rather permanent, holes usually seal up and disappear.

First impressions make a difference.  I want my yardman, who is the one who meets our customers and loggers to be friendly. He has work clothes on, but shirt is tucked in.  Looks decent. No piercings. I have had a few people with piercings other than ears and they tended to be against authority.  Didn't last long.  Have a mill manager in Alabama that has always had a stud in the ear. Been there going on 7 years.  Took over when my son moved to Ok.  

It is your mill and you can set the dress code. You can tell them how they will greet customers. Have a meeting and express your concerns and ask for ideas on how to get the results you want.  Guide them in the direction you want them to go.  Lead them, don't push them.  The only reason they work for you is for them to make you money, which you share with them by buying their time.  Once you get your dress and conduct code established and in writing, then let applicants know what you expect.  If they rebel, let them rebel at some other establishment.

One of the most memorable applicants was the guy that walked up through the yard with no shirt, no shoes or socks, long greasy hair and said " Hey man, I need a job".

I dont think you can make rules regarding good taste  ::)

What about providing company jackets and / or shirts with your logo printed on them. Free advertising (as long as the guy isn't tooo scruffy  ;) ) and the guys see they are getting something free so may be more receptive to it?

Ian

PS Lil has both piercings and a tat, and a university degree, and is a preschool teacher, so they aren't all deadbeats  ;)

Its true - I have however with all my jobs asked about piercings before the inital interview.  It has never been an issue - and the stud I wear in my nose is so small you only really notice when the light or sun catches it.

I have had my nose pierced since my twenties - and am kinda attached to it - however if it was my piercing or a job I would know which I would be choosing.

As for the "tat" that was a pure rebellion thing against my parents.  I had wanted one forever since I was about 10 and told I wasnt allowed and when I turned 18 I did it.  Havent regretted it since.  Did have it put on my shoulder however so I can cover it up or show it off as I see fit.  More covered up these days than before. :D  But the main reason for having it put there - is when its "and I say this very loosely and mean no offence what so ever to anyone"  :-X "old and wrinkly - I wont have to look at it!!!! ;D

I think the Company Shirts are a great idea.

Have a look at the thread where Arkansawyer broke his leg...  If you look in the photos in the first post, he's there with a red T-Shirt on that says "ARKANSAWYER" .

No mistaking that he works there!

I have two suggestions for supplying them:

1: You supply two shirts for every employee. They pay for them, but once they have been in your employment for more than three months (or so) you reimburse them. That way you aren't out of pocket for new employees until you have tested them, and the employees can't complain. If they leave, they have to hand the shirts back. If they are worn out, well, then they were there for a while!.

2: You set a standard of (for example) a Navy Blue T-shirt or Polo shirt. Then you organise with a local uniform embroidery place to embroider the shirts for your employees. They buy their shirts to fit, and they can buy what they are comfortable in so long as it conforms to your colour and style code. You should be able to organise with the embroiderer to ensure they don't embroider anything that's outside your criteria, and they will be able to set any limits you want on number of shirts per employee. My friend does his uniforms that way, and it works really well.

Quote from: Cedarman on March 23, 2005, 10:08:17 PM
One of the most memorable applicants was the guy that walked up through the yard with no shirt, no shoes or socks, long greasy hair and said " Hey man, I need a job".

One would be safe to assume he still needs a job?

Oh, and, I agree with you Jeff...  I don't understand Tattoos either...   Especially the big obvious ones that aren't coverable...

asy :D

Well, roofing you get nasty, dirty, and sweaty, specially in the summertime.  You don't have to come to work that way though.  I'm pretty picky about who I hire but actually don't pay too much attention to most tattoos, although I don't have and will never have tattoos or piercings myself.  The occasional earring I'll over look if it's small and tasteful but Tounge rings are out!  A foreman of mine once told me his girlfriend had about talked him into getting a tongue ring and I told him if he did to get another job, and I meant it. I do furnish T shirts and caps with Tate Roofing Logo and don't charge anything for them  although I don't always necessarily require my guys to wear them.  Most of the time they do. Sometimes I do require em, depends on the job and where it is.  That helps a  lot keeping things semi professional looking and helps separate us from jack leg roofers that work with just a ladder, a hammer, and a old pickup truck..

And Jeff, I agree with every dang thing you said, and I used to have long hair too!

Where I used to work the dress policy was nothing against the PPE rules and nothing that would be offensive. That could be a pretty fine line when working with lots of different people, but problems were rare.
Office personal had a dress code to be followed.

Lots of people consider my hair and facial hair to be unkept, and my cars to be rolling scrap yards. The way I look and the car I drive have no bearing as to the kind of work I do, but people love to assume things. I can't afford a better car, what am I too do? Are ya going to increase my pay so I can drive around in a new `vet or hummer? When you are talking about labor type jobs, it's about the work and not about the way someone looks.

Quote from: Furby on March 23, 2005, 11:38:21 PM
When you are talking about labor type jobs, it's about the work and not about the way someone looks.

Hmmm...

Not sure I agree totally.

Depends, if people are in the 'public eye' and you are trying to attract clients, then I think it does matter how people look simply, and only, because it can alter the perception of people who may be coming to spend money with you.

If you are out of the public eye, and you are working, then it matters far less.

But when your employment is directly reliant upon people walking through the door, then you need to maintain a public persona that appeals to the greatest possible percentage of your intended clientele.

asy :D

I see that differently when it is labor.
If ya talking about the crew chief, manager, head honcho, whatever, you are right.
Labor does just that, LABOR. They may be seen by the public, but their work is what they "should" be judged by.
The person dealing with the public I can see needing a little better edge.

I'm thinking in for instance store workers who are dealing with people, yes I agree with you. But around here most stores have a dress code for those people and the backroom workers don't have to follow the dress code.

I had to think about this a while before I got up the nerve to post it.   And I'm a person who has sold many many a job after working all day and getting tar and shingle grit and sweaty after a hard day's work.  I can at least put on a clean shirt and explain how hard I've been working when meeting someone new.

Great post ASY, especially the way you summed it all up.  WHAT you said, is exactly WHAT I was thinking.  It may not be fair but the best laborer roofer in the world if he was working for me would never move up to a foremans position if he wasn't able to look the part.

Quoteit does matter how people look simply, and only, because it can alter the perception of people

FAIR, maybe not.  But highly important to being successful when dealing with the public.

How many times do we have to select a tradesperson / service provider / retail shop etc purely on presentation.  All the time.  I don't go into a Fish n Chip shop if it looks untidy.  I picked my auto mechanic largely based on how tidy his workshop is (and he dresses neat and professional uniform).  Been using him for years now and won't go anywhere else.

(mind you, Asy says I'm the daggiest one around)      ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


However, evidence of worksmanship and personal reference is the best selection critea.  Its even better when it comes with good presentation.

I almost had to go to work with out my stud!!!!!!!!!!!! :o

Spending some quality time with Bubbles and something SMALL and SHINY caught her attention

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11622/theiving_parrots.jpg)
(Bubbles sitting on my shoulder being nosey)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11622/lil_jewelry.jpg)
(This is what Bubbles managed to pick out of my nose)

Ian had to fight her for it - to get it back.  After telling her off she dropped it in my hair! ;D

Co-incendentally - this is the size stud I wear all the time to work.  When I first had my nose pierced I wore an ear ring bigger than the size of the stud you can see in my ear ::).  I have also gone for the ring through the hole look - not good  :-\/.  These days I perfer the nearly indiscreet stud - although I do have a neat spike that sticks out of my nose that I wear for fun!!!! :D

We may not be able to legislate good taste but we can descency.
I was bowling the other night with my son and these two teenagers were bowling right next to us. The one kid had a belt on just to hold his pants up just below his cheeks. His boxer shorts were completely revealed as they were half way sucked up into his cheeks. He gets up there and has to waddle down the lane to bowl and then edge his pants back up after bending over to roll the ball. If he just knew how ridiculous he looked, all the while he was probably thinking he was so cool. ::)
As the employer, I think you can set the standard of what image you want your employees to maintain. But I do think the free T-shirts would be a good idea.

Like one of my friends over on the tractor boards said only yesterday,
"This country is going to Helen A. Handbasket" and that's just another symptom.
When you get some good young help that has some actual moral values and a modicum of taste, reward them well because those kinds are getting awfully hard to find.

This thread reminded me of a story...

Many years ago, way back in the '80's...  ;)

A friend of the family's son (lets call him John) had grown his hair really REALLY long for the specific purpose of having it cut and leaving a long rat's tail plait.

He went and had it cut, then went out for a night on the town. Got home really late and tumbled into bed.

Next morning his mum went in to wake him to go to work.

When John woke up she was standing there, and she said "Gee I hope you didn't PAY for that hair cut, the barber missed a bit. I've fixed it for you". She then held up her scissors, and his pride and joy foot long rats tail.

Now, knowing his mum, I don't, for a minute, believe she was so naive as to not know it was there on purpose, I also don't, for a minute, believe that she didn't cut it off on purpose!

lol

asy :D

took me so long to read others have posted already!!

I reckon you sit down and ask the chaps about ways to become more like a team  - they will probably jump at the chance to use your $'s to get some work gear.

I know when I have worked labour, it's as hard on ya clothes as it is on you, so if the boss ahs some ideas about getting in some kind of "uniform" (used loosely - ya don't want the folkes thinking they are having to be in the Army or nothing - not that there's anything wrong with that) so I don't have to wreck my own clothes then I'd jump at it and then ya have a sense of pride in the "team" you work for

End of the day it's your business - just struggling with this idea says you aren't a Hard A#$e but just want your business to be a bit sharper than the average and if the guys don't want to come on-board then you can put up with it and change th enew blokes in the door or you can flick em

Those who judge others by their appearance miss out on so much. I imagine their life is pretty lonely and pathetic.  :-\ However many do go through life in just that way, and all to often people are misjudged. I am a very hard working middle aged woman who will often go to the store dressed in whatever I happen to be wearing....bibs, dirty jeans, messy hair; and even though my startling beauty shines through  ;D I am often treated poorly by those who make poor judgements. I don't care about those folks, I feel they have a very narrow outlook on life; I know who I am and what I am, and I can hold my head up with pride.

HOWEVER, with that being said; if you own your own business, you most certainly can have a say so in the appearance of your employees. I think the easiest approach to the problem is to purchase the T-Shirt, or polo shirt, put your logo on it, and require that it be worn.

My employer says don't come in wearing anything you would be ashamed of in front of your grandmother. There is a written dress code (neat in appearance, no hats for front end staff etc) but they seem scared to enforce it. They suggested polo shirts once but a couple of employees balked so they backed off. One was a larger woman with a prominent tatoo on her left breast. Hardly appropriate.
I am no prude but when I enter a business and see the employees with the pants halfway down their butt and ball cap on backward, particularily in a retail environment, I shudder.  I assume they have little pride in themselves,  the job they do and are more interested in amusing their equally immature friends.

It is not hard or threatening to take a common sense approach to appearance and safety.  I have had very short hair, very long hair and every length in between.  I always kept it clean and neat, be it brushed out or hanging down my back in a braid.  When I worked around moving equipment I cut my hair or wore a hat and tucked the hair in my jacket.  Keeping my head and face intact always meant more than being fashionable.  I have never worn jewelry because I have met too many folks with missing fingers due to rings getting caught and fingers torn off.
In a sawmill environment I think it would be a logical and appreciated thing to set the employees down and talk about the safety issues of dangling hair and jewelry.  I think it is a nice gesture to provide work clothes, especially if you are paying a relatively low wage.  Employees appreciate it when they do not have to waste their own threads in a somewhat dirty environment and you get to choose the look.

Quote from: asy on March 24, 2005, 06:22:23 AM
A friend of the family's son (lets call him John) had grown his hair really REALLY long for the specific purpose of having it cut and leaving a long rat's tail plait.

Over on this side of the pond, we call that thing a mullet.  :D :D :D 

When my cousin first came out to work with me, he had a tongue ring--made him talk funny and and always made an annoying clicking sound.

We always made fun of him for it but he wouldn't take it out until the dentist told him it was wearing a groove in the back of his front teeth.  ???

He also wore those below the cheek pants and slip on tennis shoes.

The slip on shoes were the first to go when he rolled a log on to one and had to walk in the mud until we got it off.  :D

The below the cheek pants finally came off (literally) when he was showing off for a female customer turning a 30" walnut on the mill. He was fully extended on the cant hook and holding it when his pants fell down. I acted like the claw turner wasn't working and made him stand there like that for a good minute while the woman snapped some pics. I hear the pictures made it all around town in the (f)email circuit  :D ;D

My wife hits the thrift stores regularly to find us cheap Polos, Izods and Dickies so we look good when we're sawing. If it's cold, we both wear our plaid flannels to look more like lumberjacks  ;)

As for hair, the only time mine's been short is when I ran for County Commission. The rest of the time it's in a neat ponytail.

I don't have any problem with disceet/artful tattoos but I've seen a couple on certain parts of the female anatomy that made me wonder how they'd look after time/gravity takes it's course  :-\      

The landscape design/build firm that I work for has a dress code, that is strictly in place because the crew and laborer's will be working around people's homes.  Very expensive homes.  Our average customer contract is $80,000.00  We provide free t-shirts, sweatshirts, and jackets that have the company logo on them.  Shoes must be work boots.  Jean's are permitted, but must have no holes.  Any display of underclothing and you will be sent home for the day and lose a day's wages.  No jewerly is permitted.  Tatto's must not be visible (band-aids are provided).  If hair is long, it must pulled back and be under the company provided (with logo) baseball cap style hat.  This information is provided to all applicants that apply for a position with the company.  I've seen these guys off-work with earrings and nose studs and tongue pierceing...but they do not come to work that way.  It's not an attempt to change their individualism and no judgement is made, but when these men are in the customer's view, they ARE the company. 

OWW
I have only seen your user pic..............BUT cant imagine you with a long braid....!!!!
I had LONG hair in the 70's...... 8) 8) 8)

 :D :D :D BUZZ we all had longhair in the 70s at least after uncle sam got done with us.

Buzz, that long braid is hanging in the house along with many other mementos and trophies  ;D  I wanted to post a pic here from my wedding day when my hair was down and not braided - unfortunately the only pic I could find is in pretty poor shape.

OWW
Now come on Bro.......you gotta have one pic!!!!!!!!
I started a special thread for ya on the general board..mines up!!!!

Theres a couple people here who have it right on the head.   Roxie that is just about exactly how I have handled people in the past.  Whether your  doing outside nasty labor work or filing in my office, appropriate attire for the job is a must.  Whatever you want to look like on your own time is up to you.

I am a prime example of this myself.  I wear a suit or "business casual" every day to work.  See me on the weekend, and its jeans, cut off sleeves T-shirt, and a tattoo or two that I enjoy. 

Labor should be judged by what is done at the end of the day, but no one wants to hire a ragged looking crew to represent the company they have built up.  If an owner wants to be thought of as a professional, quality company, then they should present that from the very first phone call all the way through walking off the job on the last day.  The small things that people will remember, and tell your possible next customer about are what can make or break you. 

I have broken a couple kids of the baggy jeans thing.  The last one was a pure joy.  My neighbor kids are real great and always nice to be around.  I was out working in the yard and kept hearing some rough talk and general demeanor I dont hear from next door.  I noticed there was a different kid over there, so I called the two neighbor boys over and asked who he was.  They explained he was their cousin visiting.  A couple years older, and definetly trying to show up his younger cousins.   Baggy pants, boxers hangin out, piered ear, just general I'm so bad attire.  So I called him over and asked what was up with the pants.  He told me they were cool, and all the cool guys were em that way.   I said "oh, you really think so".  Then I went on to explain to him, in great detail, yet keeping in mind these fledging teens should only hear stuff up to a point, the exact origin of the baggy jeans getup.  Basicly, the trend was started in prison, when one prisoner essentially "owns" another man/boy.  To signify this ownership, the owner makes the ownee wear their britches like that.  If someone else wants to use his ownee, why he must ask permission and often times pay the fee for such use.   Most commonly referred to as his ....... female dog....  You get the idea.    I dont mind being the ruffian neighbor who parents regret to hear what their kids learned today, yet the keep sending them over to my house to have some things "explained" to them several times a year.  Its amazing what kids will say over a engine block and a few box end wrenches in their hands.   Anyway, when the discussion was over the two younger ones were laughing so hard at their "cool" cousin and his pants that he didnt run his mouth the rest of the day and I think he borrowed a belt for the rest of the afternoon.  I havent seen him in baggy pants since!

Wow, I didn't expect a response like this. Thanks for all the ideas. I might look into some kind of uniform. The one difficulty with that is we use alot of seasonal and part-time help, but we'd figger it all out. I never thought of band-aids over tattoos. Some guys we have had in the past would look like they got run over by a bush hog though, they had so many tattoos.

Years ago, when the society was different, things were alot easier. People knew what was appropriate and dressed that way. We never really had a problem with this until about ten years ago. I know that many of the jobs in a sawmill are entry-level, and I don't expect anyone to work as a lumber stacker for an entire career. But if they don't show any pride in themselves or their work, how are they going to advance in our industry or another?

I'll share a little story here about a former employee. I hired what seemed to a decent young man on Friday, he was to start Monday. He was a little on the rebellious side but I thought I'd give him a chance. Monday morning he comes to work with the brightest green hair you'd ever seen, and black and white painted fingernails. I told the guys to push him a little, and see how he held up. By Wednesday he asked for his pay and I haven't seen him since.

I was in a Target store a couple of months a ago and the girl in the next lane was pierced through her eyebrows multiple times, her nose and lips...ditto.  The first thought through my head was that she was LUCKY to have a job, but that I would have never hired her to be in public sight.  She had decided to limit her potential in the world.

A few years ago I went to a bar with "dancing girls" at the request of a friend of mine.  With all the ink and metal, on top of more silicone than you would see in a Home Depot, I was unimpressed.  I guess I AM too old.  I like the REAL stuff.

I guess I'll pipe in with my .02

I guess I'm in the middle as with most things in life. Everything in moderation. I wouldn't even think of getting a tattoo. That said, my high school friend owns one of the biggest tattoo studios in CT. Friends of mine got little accent tattoos on their ankles and stuff. I accept that.

If you look like a walking billboard for a heavy metal band, I'd think you might be looking for a little more attention than most. I'd look the other way and find someone else. Within legal guidelines of course.

I dunno.....
Im leaning toward Furby/Patty on this one. I DEMAND safety in whatever Warren Is wearing but some days the kid is working so hard he is in a sweat soaked sawdust covered T shert  at slightly above freezing and probably looks the way some of you find offensive. By mid day, I dont look much better(this is millwork).Tough on clothes.  I shower when I get home, sometimes on the way home , I go buy a sixpack or get milk for Cathy.  Most people are friendly regardless of my appearance, but there are some who figure I shouldnt be there lookin like that......most wouldnt last 5 miniutes  at the mill workin beside Warren. I dont look down on them(heh) pink handed, high steppin panty waists :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Bunch of hosers , heh? Bang on Percy 8) 8) 8)

This is an interesting topic.  Certainly a neat worker appearance can increase sales.  And that's what it's all about.  However, I would just implore you folks to not rush to judgement about people based on the way they choose to look.  Comments equating piercings or tatoos to not respecting themselves are, well, very ignorant.  Different people find different appearances to be attractive.  If you are out of touch with a particular style it doesn't mean the people are self loathing or whatever.  They just happen to think it's cool (whether or not it is).  Just like you wouldn't want to be judged for your bad comb-over, or beer belly, or whatever narrow-minded "kids" find offensive about older people, maybe you shouldn't pass judgement on them.   You may have lost a great worker in that green haired kid.  Perhaps informing him that his appearance was inappropriate and making him change it would have been a better approach to condoning peer harassment.

I work in a very public setting, where my appearance is important, so I understand all of this, but as a 30 year old, I feel like I can relate to both the rebellious youth and the stodgy oldster mentality.   Just remember that as youths or 20somethings, we all looked stupid to someone older. 

So that is why a Dress Policy is good.  It'll take away the built in prejudice that your clients have and that YOU also have.  In the meantime, you should work on eliminating that prejudice within yourself.

Note that I am replying to several people here in general, not any one in specific.   

Hey Andy
Take a look at the hippie topic on the general board.....the people you are adressing are likely in there somewhere.....
I see it like this standards of social acceptability are determined by the customs of the day, and the perception of RESPECTABILITY..........In this life ya gotta play the game........like the little kid told to sit down in church, he does it with a angry expression, and says, "I am sitting on the outside but standing on the inside!"

I'm a different perspective in person.  I work alone.  I am the company.  When I arrive at the job site to meet the person hiring me, I try to be right on the time I said I would be there and I dress neatly.  First impressions are important as that is all the customer has to go on other than what someone told them.  The clothes I wear are not fancy, but neither are they a mess unless I am going from one job to the next without a chance to clean up, and the customers understand that sawing gets you sweaty and covered with sawdust.  No matter what, the shirt and pants are not full of holes, even if I have to change in my truck alongside the road to make it so.

After I get set up and have the order taken, I dress for the job I'm doing, from coverall to shorts with no shirt if that is what it takes to be able to keep working.  From that point on, the customer will judge me by the work I do, not how I look while I'm doing the work.  When I finish the job and go to present the bill, I again try to get a bit cleaner and put on a shirt and pants without holes to leave them with the impression that I want to be professional.  So far it seems to work for me.

I'd never hire someone who wants to show up in those baggy pants and with all the piercings, because their appearance makes a statement about my company.  What my customers want to see is what I want to see.  I send out work when I get overloaded but there are other sawyers that never get work sent to them as I don't want my customers to end up dissapointed with the job they do and look back at who recommended them.

As for tattos, I have 4 grown kids, 2 girls with tattos and 2 boys without. Go figure. I don't either (nor does their mother). I have never been one to dress up when working in private BUT as soon as I am working in front of J.Q.Public I like a degree of neatness. Can't stand these kids who dress and decorate themselves such that you know they are only trying to look like freaks. Anytime you meet a person and the only thing you see is metal sticking thru and/or out of what must truly be outright uncomfortable places I leave. Can't stand it.
As for dress codes, when I had my last business I required that clothes be neat and clean and not something that would draw attention because of inappropriateness. We did have company tee shirts with our name on them and med weight jackets with names as well. For cold weather we used 2 layers of the med weight, and I still do this today on my own. Thirtyfive years ago I did the hiring for a retail store and would not have hired many of the types you see out there today. :D :D :o :o.
One of my jobs now is a school bus driver and this past week one of the girls got on the bus with purpleish blue hair. Really looked like a freak!

I guess it's all in how ya use what ya got.  Some of you might have noticed that my personal appearance seems a bit unkempt, whatever that means.  It's mostly that way because I don't like to shave, and I am too cheap to pay a barber.  It seem's, however, to be working to my advantage, most of the time.  People hold doors for me and call me "Sir", and Boy Scouts rush to help me across the street. ;D  The biggest bonus comes, though, when someone can't remember my name.  They say, "You know, that OLD man with the white beard that cuts the pretty lumber."  They seem to percieve that, since I appear to be old, and I toss around some facts that I've learned here on the Forum, I must be the expert.  It may be a bit fraudulent, but it works for me! ;D

DanG - I was thinking about getting my nipples pierced but now I'm having second thoughts. :o

We have a young girl at work who just started recently. She is a good worker but her shirts are a little short (like some of mine but for a different reason). I solved the problem by getting her some uniform shirts, they only cost us a couple bucks a week and add a bit of class. Like someone else suggested you might want to provide shirts, coveralls, etc. and then state your expectations.

The old-man look works for me too. I'm only 50 and keep getting asked if I want the "senior" discount.

In respect to some of this I have been on oboth ends of this spectrum.

I have a tatoo (easily hidden under a short sleeved shirt), in the summer I shave my head bald (haev nothing left to speak of on top anyway), had long hair in my youth and now when I have hair I choose to keep it very short. I don't care for all the hardware either, and have none.

In the 60's and 70's it was long hair. In the 80's the hair was still there with the girls trying to see if they could hit the tops of doorways as they passed through them. The ninties brought alot of changes of both long and short hair, baggy jeans (hanging down to the knees in some cases.....funny), and hardware.

If you are not impressed withthe way your employees look to your customers, then you can do as has been suggested and invest in t-shirts and caps, or uniforms (and pay for half the rental fee). You have more control than you realize, but you have to figure out which way you want to go.

Depending on how much outside work you do (offsite), the t shirts might not be a bad idea. Big logo on the back and a small one on the front is great advertising. Invesst in enough per employee that they have some extras to wear when not at work, and have a spare for the summer heat (nothing sucks more than a nasty stinky shirt stuck to your back all day.....I take a spare when outside doing anything away from the house).

You have options. You do not have to worry about legals per se. You do have to worry about running off some of your help if you force them to change to drastically the way they dress. Those may be good ridance though...I don't know. If they have there rear hanging out of the back then talk to them about it. If this is something you think you could handle in a morning meeting, adn give them a vote them try that. Give them the option of uniforms or t shirts. Personally, I have preferred uniforms over the years just ot save the hassles of washing the gear.

Doc

A fellow working for himself can make his own rules.  I have mine and shaving isn't one of them.  Distinguishing looks can help a business if they aren't anti-society.

I'm afraid that i have to draw the line with piercings and obvious tattoos.  Both of these ornamental features are in the category of "anti-establishment", challenges to authority, and are generally associated with rowdiness, alcoholism, drugs, and anti-society.   You see this type of thing mostly in prisons where most are saying "I'm tough"; or in urban gangs where they are trying to prove membership in a closed group.  Without considering the permanence, many, other-wise, social elites ruin their chances at acceptance by the upper echelons of business by ornamenting themselves so brazenly that they can't avoid public exposure.

It's the boldly disfiguring public exposure that saddens me.  It puts the responsibility of success on the employer rather than the employee. It can act as an excuse to cover up ones inability to perform.  It's an "in-your-face" challenge to business owners daring them to cull for a cleaner image.  It's an indication that the person is trouble on the hoof.  Standing next to a clean cut individual with the same qualifications, they lose.

A company has every right to present itself in a socially acceptable way, approved of by the management.  It's the same as making a decision on what the company logo will look like and what color to paint the building.  

If a person has ornamented himself in this way and is rejected by a portion of society that could offer him success, he has no argument, in my opinion.

My Uncle was a Marine in WWII and Korea.  He had himself tattooed on his arms and chest.  Many times he told me, "I wish I had never done it".

The new, sloppy dress costumes are just a milder form of the same "nose-thumbing".  The sad thing is that there are so many adults who condone this behavior by young America without realizing that they are part of the cause of the rebellious attitudes. 

OK.  It's just my opinion, and I'm an Old Fogy.  But I've seen the results of being surrounded by people who wouldn't follow the rules and in critical times wouldn't take orders, when their peers were depending upon them.

This is a great thread...  I think I'll print it out for required reading when my kids get older...

We went shopping today, and in the mall it was amazing how many girls of between 14-17 were walking around with these skirts that looked as though they'd just pulled their headband down..   >:(

They have these tiny little tops on, not hiding much, and tiny little skirts on. Andrew hates it because he finds it embarrassing.

I must say, when a girl walks past wearing that, you can't help but look. I guess that's what they are after, but they are BABIES!!! :(

I saw one little girl, about the same age as my daughter (8 ) wearing full makeup, with eye shadow, and lipstick on, in the store with her mum... 

I must say I wondered what she'd look like in 10 years time...

I think this all goes toward a lessenning of respect for elders.

I remember when I was pregnant 12 years ago (gosh was it THAT long ago!) and I had to ride the train into town to work, I'd get on the train to go home exhausted. Invariably the seats would be taken up with school kids, and I just was not able to stand up for long, much less on a moving train.

I was so tired this one day, and there were these two boys, about 14 or 15yo and I was standing next to them. They were laughing and joking around, and saw me, but didn't move. So I politely asked one of them whether he could stand so I could sit. He said "No, I paid for my seat". I replied "Well, it's just common curteousy, I stood for my elders when I was your age (actually, I still do). He said, well, I'm not.  So I replied, Well, I'm sorry, but I can't stand up, so you have two options. You get up, or I sit on your knee (and started moving into a sitting position). Never seen a kid move so fast. Of course he swore at me, but I didn't care by that stage.

asy :D

appearance is everthing.Like cloths,a mans truck,etc etc.Look at all the stuff women have to have for their appearance..Also the Just like the  president needs to be white,married and a christian to be the president of the USA.

I might be a little predijust about how someone looks.But not any more then anyone else.

Depending on what I'm doing depends on what I wear. Like right now , I going to be working on the truck toady so its a pair of well worn grease stained pants and an old sweatshirt.  When I'm working in the wood shop it's less stained pants :D Hey I'm a messy worker what can I say.

Now while I'm driving truck I wear dark Khakis and button shirts usually uniform style shirts which I have plenty of. Not trendy but clean.  The appearance of some truck drivers today is disgusting and makes me ashamed to tell anyone that yes I have been a truck driver and will be one again. There is no reason to show up at a customers dressed ragged and smelling like the hogs. I was at one receiver in NYC once delivering apples, driver came in smelled like he hadn't showered in 2 weeks. The receiver tossed him out and told him not to come back till he had showered and smelled better :D :D

Any time I'm going to a craft show or going to meet with someone potential to buy the thing that come out of the wood shop its dress slacks and shirt.

Beware there can be some legalities involved. Some states if you require an employee to where a uniform you have to provide it.

Now as for dress codes. when I worked for RSC in the rental industry we wore uniforms, no jewelry was allowed and no hair on the collar. Mostly for safety reasons. Watches where allowed but could not have a metal band, a lot of you have seen what happens when you dead short a battery imagine it on wrist  :o If you came to work with out a shirt tucked in or wearing jewelry you got a written warning and had to correct the problem, second time you got another written warning third time you got sent home for 3 days.  The three days where all ways Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday wouldn't want to give you a 5 day weekend  :D :D

The cycle was repeated once, if you got written up 3 more times you where terminated.

It's pretty simple, it's your company and within reason you can set the standards, employees can either comply or work else where. Some folks don't care what your appearance is as long as the job gets done and gets done right for a fair price, but your going to get more jobs because some people do judge a company on its appearance. Some of us understand that a dirty job is going to lead to dirty employees but a lot of folks don't realize that.

I also agree that image is important, though not "everything". 

Prejudice is a description that falls outside of the scope of this thread.  Prejudice is generally considered to be a trait that is outside of a persons ability to control it.  That's why the U.S.A. has gone through "eye-tooth-pulling" efforts to eliminate discrimination based on prejudice.  The rules are that we are not to discriminate against any person because of race, color, creed, religion, national origin, sex, age, marital status or disability.  Those are things, generally, as human beings that we can't change.

The traits that we are discussing, I think, have to do with "Personal" choice. They are those things that an individual can make a decision upon as to which fork in the road he wants to take.   These are things, that as a member of a society, one must take personal responsibility

We, as the U.S.A., lists the rules; and we, as citizens, are expected to comply with them.

A company/business owner has rights to make rules as to how his company is run and presented to his customers also, as long as the rules don't run a-foul of the Governments definition of Civil Rights and Human Rights.

Quote from: Tom on March 25, 2005, 10:20:07 PM
...piercings and obvious tattoos.  Both of these ornamental features are in the category of "anti-establishment", challenges to authority, and are generally associated with rowdiness, alcoholism, drugs, and anti-society.   You see this type of thing mostly in prisons where most are saying "I'm tough"; or in urban gangs where they are trying to prove membership in a closed group.  

Tom, I respect your opinions and contributions on this board immensely, but you are SO far out of reality with this comment.  Maybe, looking back 50+ years there may have been some truth to your statement, but in todays world, these things are done for ornament, because the people like them.  Period.   

Also, Prejudice, as defined by my dictionary, is 1. a preconcieved judgement or opinion, 2. an adverse opinion or leaning formed without grounds or before sufficient knowledge.  The word can and does still have meaning outside of the legal definition of it that you site, and is definately applicable to this situation.  Just because you may not be sexist, or racist, or classist, or antisemitic, or another widely known discrimination, doesn't mean you don't have prejudices.  I know I do, and discussions like this help me to recognize that, and remind me to try to correct it within myself.

All that being said, I STILL agree that you should look tidy and clean on the job, and the employer has every right to enforce a dress code. 

Andy,
You may be right why some people use  tattoos and piercings, but Tom is also right on how most of us over thirty perceive them. We may be prejudiced but that is how we feel.
Bob

The definition of prejudice can be argued from now till the cows come home. 

Semantics are a touchy thing.  The purpose of my post was to put the thread back on course with its intended topic and to keep it out of the purely political arena where citizens of one country may believe differently than citizens of another and minimize the "bashing" of our own.  None of us need to be exposed to the dragging of our dirty laundry through the streets of the world.

I don't think I am off base with my description and use it as an opinion just as you must classify your post, Andy.

The subject is about employee dress/appearance codes and may be a useful thread if we stay within those confines.

One must look at himself, when siding on these issues, and place himself in the position of business owner or manager rather than just someone who is having trouble finding a job. 

I think the bottom line in all this stuff about how you should lookon the job  depends on what job you have.If your a rock star then you can dress really weird.If your in the Army,then you should look clean cut,and so on and so on.

All I ment about being prejudice is I think we all are in one way or another but we don't come out and say we are.

Like those guys covered head to toe with all those tattoos.Now I think that looks weird.But alot of things seem weird to me so stuff like that doesn't bother me.Like those girls at the gas stations with the really long finger nails looks weird too.

I was over at and old buddies house last week and he had a ring in his ear.I didn't say nothing about it,but someone noticed it when we when out to eat and he showed them that it was a ring that just clips on. He said his wife got her nose pirced tho,and their in their 50's :o.

I have been down this road a couple of times as both a business owner and a manager and have found that it is not nearly as simple as buying uniforms.

And it can be especially difficult to implement such rules in an organization that currently doesn't have any. Anytime you decide to legislate personal appearance, it can backfire in unforeseen ways and cause a whole new set of problems that add to your workload. As the saying goes "rules were meant to be broken" and you may find people constantly testing the limits and finding new loopholes. What will you do when it is the best employee who decides to challenge the appearance rules? I was surprised to have this happen on more than one occasion.

In situations where there were appearance problems, a simple meeting where I explained my concerns (without dictating any rules) was the most effective, and often resulted in a good deal of peer pressure on the real offenders. Most people would rather be part of the solution than part of the problem and are smart enough to know that if it's good for business, it's good for them.

Just my 2 cents.

Joe

Rod,

I know what you mean and I harbor some of the same feelings.  What a person does with their body, or even their life for that matter, is their own business as long as it doesn't impact other's freedoms to live their lives as they see fit.

Here is an example, using your analogy, of what I was talking about.  If a Rock Star wants to look weird in our eyes then he can.  He works for himself.  It might even be in his best interest to be attractive to the society that he has chosen.  

The Army guy should look sharp because he has to follow the rules to fit in the society he has chosen to fit into.  All be it, there are times when a person finds himself in a situation like that when he didn't choose it, as in the Draft, he still must follow the rules or pay the consequences.

To see the argument from the side I"m talking about, you have to quit looking at the personal choices of that individual from the stand point of what he considers his rights and look at his choices form the stand point of succeeding in another's world.  There is no law, to my knowledge, against being tattooed from head to foot.  That doesn't mean that a business owner will honor your decision to do so by hiring you for a position where you represent His company to the public.  Because a person makes indiscriminate decisions in his life that are shortsighted but legal, doesn't mean that another must suffer with lost sales and company image problems to compensate.  We have to be responsible for our life's decisions and not fall into the trap of blaming our failures on someone else's valid rules.

If you want to be rebellious and grow your hair long, you can.  When you find out that the company that will pay you the "big Bucks" doesn't allow long hair, you can cut it off, if you like or look elsewhere for a job.

If you want to be rebellious and get visible tattoos you can.  When you find out that the company that will pay you the "Big Bucks" doesn't allow visible tattoos, you can't erase them.  You can't make it the Company's fault that they aren't interested in you.  You made that decision yourself.  That leaves you with only one thing to do and that is to go elsewhere.  This is why I find today's piercing, scarring and tattooing ornamentation so sad.  

If one does make that choice, then he needs to be responsible enough to accept the results in his professional life.

Joe,

Rules are not generally made to be for some folks and not for others.  A business owner who is being "tested" needs to look at what is fair, first, and then what  he wishes his company's reputation to be.  Sometimes, the demands of even a good employee are too high.

Quote from: Tom on March 25, 2005, 10:20:07 PM


I'm afraid that i have to draw the line with piercings and obvious tattoos.  Both of these ornamental features are in the category of "anti-establishment", challenges to authority, and are generally associated with rowdiness, alcoholism, drugs, and anti-society.   You see this type of thing mostly in prisons where most are saying "I'm tough"; or in urban gangs where they are trying to prove membership in a closed group.

Warren has a piercing, so did my daughter Pamela..........I musta missed out on the drugs and stuff  :D :D :D

After reading most everything you post Tom and agreeing with just about all of it, Im thinkin youd like to have this one back, cause its out of character for you. Or Im reading it wrong.....

No Percy, I stand my ground, no matter how UN-PC it might make me look.  I was taught as a small child, those things that the "conservative" society I lived in thought of as rebellious.  I'm not talking about the ear piercing a women has done to wear her ear-rings.  It's accepted that women wear ear-rings.  I'm talking about the ear-rings on men, nose rings, split tongues and, in some instances pegs in noses and plates in lips that, to me, are nothing but shear rebellion and pure defiance against the More's of our society.  while I respect one's choice to defile himself, I don't generally associate professionally with people who think that they have to do these things

When I walk into an establishment with a worker that has piercings and tatoos I'm not offended by it. I do think to my self though, why would anyone want to do it. As long as the service is good, I'm fine with it. And if I require the service of the establishment again I'll certainly be back.

I know one fella that runs a gris mill and he's not the cleanest guy in the world. I won't even mention the local terminology used to describe the guy or similar appearing individuals. But, I've eaten his cereal, eaten bread from his flour and its as good, and in my opionion better for ya, than the commercialized cereals and flour on the store shelves. My father used to supply him his cereal grain when he was still farming. Looking at his workplace sure does make ya wonder how he sells it though. :D

Quote from: Tom on March 26, 2005, 04:16:55 PM
No Percy, I stand my ground, no matter how UN-PC it might make me look.  I was taught as a small child, those things that the "conservative" society I lived in thought of as rebellious.  I'm not talking about the ear piercing a women has done to wear her ear-rings.  It's accepted that women wear ear-rings.  I'm talking about the ear-rings on men, nose rings, split tongues and, in some instances pegs in noses and plates in lips that, to me, are nothing but shear rebellion and pure defiance against the More's of our society.  while I respect one's choice to defile himself, I don't generally associate professionally with people who think that they have to do these things

I hear you Tom. The PC thing is way overdone in my opinion as well. AND being a liberal minded Canadaian, I think your points are more than valid...cept the association with drugs/alchoholism.  The kids have brought home some pretty weird looking freinds over the years and, yes, some of them were bad, but lots of them who looked like somthing Ill never be able to understand, were/are good people who dont do drugs or swarm pensioners in the park.
  I believe that you are a person who likes people right off and generally keep liking them till they do somthing very wrong/show undesirable traits, such as drugs/alchoholism etc. Id like to think Im like that as well and piercings/tattoos, oddball appearances(not conservative by any means), are not grounds for me disliking them. I think I have learned well from my children if that makes any sense ;D ;D ;D

Just to take this topic sideways for a minute, have a look at this:

http://bmeworld.com/amago/bodmod/index.html

Pay particular attention to the link half way down the page that says "Apadravya experience"

(I found it because someone linked it as a funny on another forum)

Andrew and I were discussing this the other day, and I said I didn't understand why people would get tattoo'd so obviously (We'd just seen a guy with tattoos all over his neck and face, and they were not nice ones). Andrew's reaction was that they were limiting their employment opportunities, which, in the sector of society this guy "Seemed" to be from was a pity. You'd think he'd want to leave every possibility open...

It's an interesting discussion...

asy :D

well about all I can say is I saw the beatles on the ed sullavan show and I'm sure alot of older people thought they were weird,but not to me.But now I'm not to far left or right,I'm in the middle...I think :o :o :o :o.Tell something comes along that will change my mind..

Well Tom I here you and agree . My son one time wanted a ear ring and I told him when he got his own house and paid his bills he could do so if he wanted to ;D I do think some limit their chances of a good job I am sure someone told them these things if the job required such deckerations I could try to understand . I did tell my son if he were gong to set sail on a pirate ship it would be ok. :D :D If I wanted to work for you I was  taught that I should respect your Co and the image you need to suceed . I don't judge by looks as some may need to fit in in some under cover opperation and me not be aware of it but most times in your own area you can tell sucess from the rebelouse ones  ??? My son still don't have an ear ring or any other markings that stand out . Shucks he even looks like a cop. If you are as rich as Howard Huges dress or look as you want to if you want a job from me it is my way or the highway

My son has something sticking through his tongue and a Star of David tattoo on his back. I asked him why he got that tattoo and he said "because he was more closely identify with the Old Testament teachings and thought this symbol to be representative of those teachings." I'm not sure of his tongue piercing but I think it was because he wanted to do something different. He also just finished boot camp at Fort Leonard Wood because he wanted to do something different than his friends, something for his country.

I do have to admit that I smile when I see young people with their decorations but I try to accept people for who they are. I have however been known to tell them that "I know a good doctor who can get that fishhook out of your eyebrow".

It easy to judge people by their looks but there is a good chance you will judge them wrong.

How people dress or how much steel they stick in their body is entirely their business, that is unless they are my under age children. ::)  I will always defend their right to be "different" , even while they are trying to be the same as their friends. But when I hire some one, I think it is my right to judge them on how the will fit in to my work place.  If a "clean cut" person with an expensive three piece suit  showed up wanting a job working at
my mill or farm I probably would not hire them.  If I was a Bank manager that would be the person I would consider.
Mark M, I spent 16 weeks a Fort Lost In The Woods. Can't say at the time I really enjoyed it much. :(

 I have always chosen my own way...not anybody else's.  If it is your way or the highway, well I'll be hittin' the road. See ya! I have watched while others were treated so poorly because of their looks, and it has saddened me.

I will never forget when I was a little kid. We were moving again, and had all of our worldly goods packed into the station wagon and dad's pickup. A lady missed a stop sign and ran into our car, smashing it all to pieces. We were given an old beat up green sedan to finish our trip. I was amazed at the difference in our treatment. Before when we were driving the wagon, gas station attendents were courteous and respectful, in the old beat up sedan, they were rude and nasty. Folks would watch us pull up, and turn their backs on us. I'll never forget those lessons. I think more of us should learn not to prejudge, you have no idea the circumstances these folks are in.

As far as tattoos and hardware,  who cares! Those who have them aren't asking me for my approval, they just want that particular look that day. So what.  For the most part they are just kids trying to be cool. We have all been through that stage in our life. And if you didn't , well I think you missed out on some harmless fun.

Happy Easter everybody.  ;)

Quote from: Andy Henriksen on March 26, 2005, 11:49:03 AM
Tom, I respect your opinions and contributions on this board immensely, but you are SO far out of reality with this comment. 

Comments like this on the forestry forum are out of line. It is a personal attack on someone elses opinion. We do not operate that way here and I won't tolerate it. You are welcome to voice your own opinions on here but when you point a finger at someone and say something like this, thats it. You will get my unwanted attention. I do not need or want further comment on my statement on this, just compliance. :( 

One of the nice things about the US is that we are free to associate or not associate as we please in our daily lives. In the same token we are free to work at a company or not. (I think a person should do their best to never be in a position to not be able to quit and move on if the company does not suit them.)
  I have been on both sides as employee for 11 years and as an employer for 25.  As an employee, I felt it was my duty to make as much money as possible for my company as efficiently as possible, but at the same time not letting them own me. Their time was theirs and mine was mine. They set the dress, safety, and all other standards.  My off work time was spent doing what I liked.

I have employed many individuals over the years.  When someone applies for a job I have a job application and a 10 to 20 minute interview. I have a very short time to make a decision on each individual that applies. No diploma or GED, go to the bottom of the list.  Got tongue, lip or eyebrow metal, sorry won't consider.  Why, because even though there may be a quality individual among those not considered, my experience is that they are rebellious against all authority, including mine.  They want to do things their way and they do not have the experience to do things their way. Doesn't mean the clean cut people will work out, but again I go with the odds. The people that stay with me long turn, dress appropriatly for the work. Want to give me my moneys worth. They have it figured out that I am their customer, that if my demands are reasonable, then they owe it to me to do their best. 
Too often during the interview when asked why they left their previous employment, the phrase, "I couldn't get along with my supervisor" comes out.  Big red flag.
This is what works for my company. The people I won't hire may be exactly the type of person needed at some other company.

Actions have consequences.  Wearing piercings is making a statement, same as saying with words,"I want to be different from you old folks" .  When I prepare lumber, do I dress the lumber to satisfy me or the customer. It is their money that is buying the wood.  It is my money that is buying an employee's time.
Right or wrong, those are my observations.  Apply with out shirt or shoes, have body metal,  use improper language such as, "Hey dude, I need a job"  ,  you get to keep looking for a job.

How many diamonds in the rough are there?  Very few, otherwise they would be common and diamonds wouldn't be so rare.

The quickest way to get me to overlook these fashion statements would be if the prospective employee would say, right out of the box, "If you hire me, I will make you money. And this why." They would have my complete attention.  Way too often this thought does not cross their minds because at this point in their lives they are too self centered.

When customers come in, I do not care how they talk, (as long as it is not profane), how they dress, what they drive, what they wear, etc.  I want the green in their wallet and I along with every employee had better treat them with utmost respect.  I for the life of me cannot understand why any business owner would tolerate disrepect of any customer no matter how purple their hair, or piercings, tatoos etc. To me, that would be economic suicide.

I like this thread as it is a good chance to get plenty of perspective on this issue. I have always thought I was a clean cut fellow, but then for 40 years I have been crawling around underground as a caver.  This was rather radical behavior in the 60's in its own way.  Belly crawling in mud with 4 inches of air space is weird behavior. Walking down a highway looking like a hog just out of the wallow, gets lots of stares and comments. 
We all have our own different behaviors.

As Jeff said, lets expound on ideas and not let things get personal, I would hate to lose opportunities to look at different ways of doing things.

It is somewhat enlightening to hear why people want tatoos, piercings etc. and how they perceive others reactions to them.

This is just a little off-topic, but still related. Friday morning I visited a farm the next county over to look at the timber. The farmer rode me around the place and showed me the timber, and interviewed me in the process. Not just forestry type things, more of a character interview. I scaled the timber and went back Saturday morning to submit a bid. He had me go up to the big house and sit down with his wife for about thirty minutes. Seems she's real particular on who she does business with, so she grilled me pretty good. She wanted to know if I smoked, drank, used drugs, and all sorts of other things. I think I came out of the interview in good shape, as I live a pretty clean life. These landowners are not only concerned with the actual bid, they also care about who they sell their timber to. I hope by looking and acting like a professional I'll rank a little higher than some of the other outfits who are bidding.

Cedarman,
I used to do a bit of spelunking in my youth.  Did you ever check out the falls in Buckner's cave?  That was my first experience!  I understand Buckner's is not the same cave after a couple of rescues caused the entrance tunnel to be greatly enlarged.  I think the ole s@#t hole was enlarged also.  Too bad. It was quite an experience to squeeze through and end up in that large volcano room :o
The most memorable cave was either Grotto or Salamander.  I don't remember the exact name but I do remember squeezing through passages where if your weren't turned and facing the right way you got stuck.  Those were my thinner days to be sure.  I wouldn't fit in half those places now. :)

I think if an employer believes employee dress, behavior, attitudes, or anything  else has a negative impact on the business, it is his duty to himself AND his employees to address it.  After all, if the employer is correct in his assessment, it will eventually affect the bottom line, and his employee's billfold as a result.  And, in rereading my statement, the efficient employer will be striving to have a positive impact or image to the public, and not just avoid a negative one. 
Back in the ice age,(early 70's) when I played a little high school basketball,  we were told in no uncertain terms that we represented our school and our community, and we would do it well.  We were issued blazers,  and were expected to wear dress pants and a shirt and tie with them to events.  There was a mighty conservative guideline on hair length and facial hair. All these things were presented upfront, and if you objected, well there was the door.  Some rebellious types griped a little about it, but as far as I know it didn't warp our tender little psyches too awful bad.  Once, a jv player showed up for a game in a shirt with ruffled sleeves and collar that were  popular at that particular time.  As he got on the bus, the head coach stopped him and loudly admired how "pretty" that shirt was.  "Whaaaaat?" was the unspoken reaction among us older players.  "Is he going soft or just senile?"  Then after a pause, the coach asked in a stage whisper that could be heard to the back of the bus,"Now you don't have lacy ruffles like that on your underwear, do you?"  The whole bus roared, the kid flushed beet red, laughed and denied it, and no more was said.  We never saw that pretty shirt again, though.

 :D :D :D

I dunno what to make of this whole thread.

I am currently a solo operation in business.  Most of my jobs come from a phone call, and I've already been hired by the time I meet the customer.  Now, I'm not the neatest guy in the world.  I usually need a haircut and a shave, and my typical attire, any day of the week, is a clean henley-type shirt and a pair of Carhartt work pants and boots.  I don't wear a hat and I don't have any tats or piercings and I don't smoke.  My truck is usually covered in mud and/or road grime, but it's in good shape and only six years old.

Nevertheless, it's gotten back to me through various sources that I appear "unprofessional".  I occasionally have to make appearances on local public television, and I try hard to shave and dress in a decent button-down shirt, clean jeans (and my work boots) - better then my usual.  But I take a look around at the people who really look like dirtbags to me, the ones with the arms full of ink, the pierced everything and dyed hair and ratty clothes, and these are the ones cashing me out at the store and cooking my food in the restaurant, and I wonder what "unprofessional" means.  

I generally wouldn't have a problem hiring somebody with a few tattoos or pierced ears, but if *I* feel offended, the person won't get the job.  If the appearance factor comes into play after they have the job, they may not have it long.

I remember right out of college, I has a bit of a rebel thing going.  I had just gotten done with four years of military college and spent it all with a really short haircut and in uniform.  I decided that I'd like to let me hair grow long.  Well, my former boss was ex-USAF officer, and he was really *pithed that I was working for him and wearing a ponytail, and the more *pithed he got, the more I let it grow.  I couldn't stand him anyway.  

The perspective from which one views some of these issues will quite often change one's opinions as time marches on.  Sometime around 1970 or so I became aware that girls were good for more than chunkin' frogs at.  In my area at least, the four years or so after 1970 would have to have been considered the golden age of the mini-skirt.  It eventually developed that several young ladies began an apparent competetion for the honor of the shortest skirt, a most happy event for adolescent young men.  8) Sewing machines hummed til late at night, and more than one hem was fashioned on a school bus with safety pins on the way to school, and removed on the way home.  I, along with most of my buddies, became devoted fans and advocates of this particular fashion trend.  We, in fact , felt personally aggrieved whenever school officials sent an occasional offender home to put on something a little more fitting for school wear.  We felt that made scoring the contest unnecessarially complicated. 
Now we move to 1974.  I began dating (and later married) a young lady whose taste was a little more demure.  Though I still heartily approved of the now dying fashon trend,  I saw no reason for her to participate, either. 
Fast forward now to the early '90's, and I am now the father of two teen-aged daughters.  I am no longer a fan of the mini-skirt, and  in fact am an advocate of mid-calf or ankle length skirts. "I don't care what everyone else wears, YOU are not wearing THAT anywhere!"   ::) ::) ::) I am also much happier with turn-of the century bathing suits and (whatever is happening to me?) have developed an aversion to the bikini suits I enjoyed so much in my youth. "whattya think yer lookin'at kid?"  My blue heeler and I begin to develop techniques to intimidate teenage boys.
Every generation finds a way to drive the older generation nuts, I guess.  My generation finally mostly cut our hair, and quit wearing washclothes for skirts. You could actually mistake most of us for normal human beings.  (Although probably over half the convicted meth cookers in my area are middle aged.) The youngsters of today will someday pull up their pants and take the hardware (much as I despise that stuff) out of their faces.  I think a lot of them are going to come to regret those tattoos, though.

All I can do is  :D :D :D :D sorry but  :D :D :D :D :D

 ::)

Faron,

After reading what ya said bout what length skirts you liked when your girls were going to school, a thought crossed my mind.

Bet it was hard to find a safety pin around your house.

;)  :D  :D

Society has a way to try to get it's members to comply to certain norms. It is called peer pressure. Peer pressure can be for the good or for the bad. I think for the most part that the older folks put pressure on the youger folks for the good because they have been around the block a few more times and know what dangers lie out there. Unfortunately most of the bad pressure comes from friends, who have not been around the block any more times than they have and don't know the dangers that lie out there. I think that most of us pushed our parents limits in our youth but have moved back towards where our parents stood on things as we got older and I think wiser as well.
An employer certainly has the right to expect his employees to meet the societial norms. Hopefully those rules would not have to be written down but human nature would probably demand so.

I agree with assie. As for David. ARKANSAWYER, He always puts on a profesional appearence. When I finaly get going good, Will order some shirts and good jeans. just my2cents, Charlie

I always thought it was a young persons responcibility to push on that line as hard as they could to see if there was anyone on the other side.

Haytrader, Counted them every morning. ;) :D

i beg to differ here.  a shoddy appearance is one thing but piercings has no baring (sp) on the kind of job you do! nor do tats! when i work i use my "working clothes" they arent pretty,  and they are clean, (when i start in the am) but then again when im done doing an8 to 12 hr day im not pretty either. im usually covered in grease and grime and dirt and mud..whichever season it is. does that mean i cant stop at a convenience store after work to buy a soda or a beer because im looking bad for the company? excuse me what planet are you  all from?  you work you get dirty its as simple as that! if your not dirty at the end of the day somethings wrong!! ok im sorry if i stepped on toes but it burns me when people just assume youre a greaseball and not a hard worker because you look different. theres 2 sides to every story, maybe youll hire someone who has no tats no piercing and is clean cut, and he doesnt do a damned thing? whereas you have a guy/gal who is covered in tats and piercings and has the most genial attitude to your clients and they come back! look below the surface instead of above.

Babylogger,
you are reading into this conversation something that isn't there.  When one gets dirty at work it isn't a reason for an employer to be too concerned.  As a matter of fact that might even be a sign that the person is doing a good job.

On the other hand, if someone applies for a job at my company and he has on dirty clothes, is unkempt, hair in disarray and hasn't had a bath in a month.  I'm not going to hire him....... or her.

If someone applies for a job and has tattoos all over there face and exposed arms and hands, I probably would not consider them to represent my company.

If they apply or show up for work with rings hanging out of their nose, lips, cheeks, eyebrows and ears, I will send them home.

I don't want someone in my employ who hasn't got the best interest of the company at heart.  That not only means that they are a good worker but that they don't malign the image of the company with their actions or appearance.   Blatant, in-your-face, disregard for the company image is not only detrimental to the bottom line but can directly affect the ability to maintain a payroll and offer raises to fellow employees.  It's every employees job to impress customers positively.

sorry tom i would never show up for work looking disreputable, but ya need to face facts, people are pierced and tattoed in this day and age. as long as they are polite and doing their jobs then there shouldnt be a problem right? now if someone showed up in daisy dukes chewing gum and saying whatever then id give them the boot! welcome to 2005!

Seems to me you hire who you're comfortable with. The problems don't arise until one of your existing employees suddenly shows up wearing (or bearing) something you don't approve of.

I'm one of those people that just never manage to look neat. Put me in a brand new set of clothes, and in 15 minutes I'll have bumped into something, had a dog jump up on me, or spilled something. I don't recall my mother ever pestering me about my appearance -- I'm sure she did, but kids have that special gene that turns off their hearing when Mom or Dad are talking  :).  There's one gift my mother gave me, though, and I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this discussion. She taught me to smile. It's a habit -- when I meet someone they get a big, genuine smile.

Think about it -- have you ever felt a little put off by someone's appearance, and then had them greet you with a welcoming smile? Don't you find yourself making allowances for their appearance once you see that smile? I sure do.

Hey Babylogger!  :)

This thread was supposed to be a discussion about perceptions of employees, and whether or not uniforms and first impressions of employees had a bearing on our businesses...

It wasn't a denigration of alternative lifestyles or alternate 'fashion sense'...

If you have a quick read of the original post you'll see where it all started...

asy :D

Quote from: babylogger on April 03, 2005, 03:03:34 AM
but ya need to face facts, people are pierced and tattoed in this day and age. as long as they are polite and doing their jobs then there shouldnt be a problem right?

Good Morning babylogger,

Nope. The tatted and steel adornin' folks need to face the facts. They have chosen an alternate lifestyle for themselves. Do I hold that against them? No. Would I speak and or socialize with them? With the right attiude. Would I hire them to represent my company? Not on your life. Could they find jobs if they wanted? Probably at some menial jobs where the person doing the hiring does not own the outfit and has a small labor force to pull from ie.. Minimum Wage!

Now a discrete tattoo here or there or an earring that can be removed during work I can live with, otherwise NO WAY.

Brian

Baby Logger, you need to tone it down. Your opinions are welcome but your way of expressing them needs work. "Face the facts".

My problem is that half or more of my "boutique" wood customers are tattooed and pierced artist types--they come to me because they like the natura, unrefined and unadorned aesthetics of slab and flitch wood. Ironic, ain't it  ;) :D

A doctor that I traded some walnut to for a vascectomy a couple years ago runs an avant garde one-stop medical clinic that handles everything from pediatrics to face lifts. He says that after post-natal tummy tucks and post-nursing boobjobs, his number one service is saggy/distorted tattoo removal  ;)

Another friend of mine is a high-end tattoo artist who has gained much notoriety for his ability to creatively amend or trandsform existing tattoos to better reflect the evolving spirituality/religiousity of his clients.  ::)

Can you imagine trying to explain to your final god of choice why you have his/her "competitor's" symbols all over your body?  :D
       

QuoteA doctor that I traded some walnut to for a vascectomy a couple years ago

THIS TOPIC HAS NOW CHANGED DIRECTIONS  :D  :D  :D  :D

I immediately detoured at the last fork. :o :o :D :D :D

Quote from: Cedarman on March 27, 2005, 11:42:29 AM
No diploma or GED, go to the bottom of the list.

Guess I won't be working for you then, Sorry but at some point life experience outweighs that piece of paper. Dropping out of high school may have been a bad decision but it wasn't done out of rebellion, it was done out of boredom. It was no challenge at the time.

As for my employment I can go back to almost any job I've had in the past 15 years and get rehired. In fat there is only one that I can think of that wouldn't rehire me and if the truth was ever found out I would be rehired and the manager fired. As for my long history of different jobs, Boredom, that and sometimes I just get nuts watching some one throwing money away. I get really nuts when when they don't want to even hear an idea. Or worse yet I prove to them they are losing money and they still won't listen.

Case in point
When I left RSC I went to another rental company to become service manger for another rental company. The new store was a shambles as far as service went. They where averaging 3 service calls a day. I did what I promised I got our service calls down to around 3 or so a week in side of 3 months.  In doing so I spent money, lots of it  :D When I started The parts room was bare, a few filters some batteries and that was about it. Supplies where almost nil, we had a bolt bin that was about empty no shop rags no nothing. No welder no torches no air compressor even.

By the time I had been there a year we had a stocked parts room with a value of $40,000. I told you I can spend money!!  :D :D Up until this point in time the manger had no clue, oh yeah he new I was buying stock but he had never figured it up. Then we had inventory.  :o When he saw the figures for what we in stock he had a cow!! After that I had to get all purchases approved through him. Wasn't long till we had no parts again.  >:( >:( >:( As a result The amount of equipment that was ready to rent went down hill since we where always waiting on parts. Which in turn cost us rentals which in turn brought down the gross revenue. Not to mention that in 8 months my next day air charges to get stuff we had to have totaled over $7,000 dollars. Even when I showed him all this in black and white he couldn't see it. All he could do was blame me for costing us money and losing revenue do to missed rentals since the equipment wasn't ready to go.

Needless to say it wasn't long till he found a reason to fire me. His reasoning, I wasn't doing my job. I didn't even bother to get mad about it I just went on my merry way. And that branch, closed less then a year after I was fired since it had started losing so much money!!  :D :D

I hit a brick wall awhile back :D

Quote from: Jeff B on April 03, 2005, 11:39:13 AM

QuoteA doctor that I traded some walnut to for a vascectomy a couple years ago

THIS TOPIC HAS NOW CHANGED DIRECTIONS  :D  :D  :D  :D

I just took a wrong turn and refuse to stop for directions

:D :D :D :D :D

Brucer
You are defitely on to somthing "  There's one gift my mother gave me, though, and I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this discussion. She taught me to smile. It's a habit -- when I meet someone they get a big, genuine smile."

I learned as a young person, that an enthusiatic hand shake and a big sincere smile will open MANY doors, that alone may tip the scales on a contract, job, or GIRLFRIEND......... 8) 8) 8)

Hey wait a minute here! I want to know how many bd ft of walnut a vasectomy goes for. :o

I really could care less what you look like on the outside, it's what's inside somebody that matters.

Yep, I think Brucer has pretty much covered it. I don't give a rip about your looks, nor your clothes, nor your back ground. Just give me a big genuine smile and offer your hand  in friendliness; you have erased any discomfort I may be feeling inside.

The old cliche "you only get one chance to make a first impression" is true. In the first 30 seconds when I meet a prospective employee I am looking at their physical presence, their body language, the words they use, (do they speak in sentences or one or two word utterances), eye contact, body posture, answers to my questions, questions they ask.  I am looking for the answer to the question, "Will they make me money? and Will they fit into our company culture?"

Smiling is a big part of positive body language.

Had a guy call up yesterday asking for a job.  Said he worked for me before. I said I normally don't rehire. He said I rehired so and so. (which I had). Said I had position filled.  He hung up on me without saying another word. Think he ever has a chance of me hiring him?
My advice to anyone looking for a job.  Do your research about the company you are applying at. Talk to someone that works there. What does the owner like or dislike? If the company culture is opposite from what you prefer then either adapt or don't apply. Go with the attitude you are going to make the company money. This doesn't guarantee anything, but it stacks the odds in your favor.
When I interviewed at IBM it took each of us about 30 seconds to figure we were not made for each other. Totally different culture.  When I interviewed with Schlumberger we both knew we had a match.

Uster when I would go looking for a job, (mostly cause I'd done either been fired or wore my welcome out somewhere else) ;D I'd try to find out everything I could about the company before applying and asking for a interview.  I'd dress neat, look em in the eye and tell em how I could make em money.  No kidding.  I never had any trouble getting a job but usually somewhere between a year, and ten years I'd wear my welcome out. Finally went to work for myself and even now sometimes I wear my own welcome out! Ain't figured out a good way to fire myself though and still make a living!  ;D

It can be done.......Cowboy Bob fires hisself on a regular basis, then he figures, "what the heck, I'll give the guy one more try."   :D

Quote from: Norm_F. on April 03, 2005, 01:33:52 PM
Hey wait a minute here! I want to know how many bd ft of walnut a vasectomy goes for. :o

If I remember right, a little over 300  ;) 

If I remember right that's about 5 bucks a foot  8) :D

Michelle claims slaves can't be fired  :D

Quote from: Don P on April 03, 2005, 09:26:14 PM
If I remember right that's about 5 bucks a foot  8) :D

For which end of the Bargain? The walnut or the Vascectomy???    :o :o :o

Oh, and for the record, Michelle's right.

asy :D

Quote from: Don P on April 03, 2005, 09:26:14 PM
If I remember right that's about 5 bucks a foot  8) :D

Nah, it was one log and AD.  ;)

He thought it was worth $900 and I thought it was priceless--two's enough for me  ;D

I have one of each flavor. What more could a man want?  ;)    

Quote

I have one of each flavor. What more could a man want?  ;)   

Quote

I had to read this a couple of times until I figured out you were talking about kids. ;D

Oh oh.... now I think I got both of us in trouble. :D

 :)I hate to say it but were old...  Yes I have picked up a few of my Dad's critiques.  It wasn't so long ago I had my hair in a pony tail and the old man kept giving me a hard time.  I can see the "individual expression" of the piercings and tattoos, except that so many people have em there not individuals anymore.  I guess there is a time and place for everything, once you see that people rely on that first appearance for a judgement of you, its time to be accountable of yourself.  If tattoos are covered up, and piercings aren't too many, I pretty much let it slide, but I tend to stare when they have tats running all the way down their arms or going up the neck, and rings coming out the nose like a bull.  I still don't understand the point of piercing the lip, sometimes the eyebrow doesn't look too bad but it doesn't serve any obvious purpose either.
  In the end, as an employer if you feel that an appearance has an effect on production or business you should feel free to discuss the issue with the person.  If things can't be agreed upon it should probably be considered that the person cares more about the look than about the job.  I for one know that jobs are important.  I also feel that people look at me differently when my appearance is clean cut than when I am looking all grungy.  I try to take my days activities into account before I decide what to wear and whether to skip the shave or not.
  Everyone always has such good stuff to talk about on here, I can't keep up with it all... 8)