In the course of a couple weeks, I went from considering an LT15 with no wheels to what I've now ordered... LT35HD. Will be here in 14ish weeks. So I'm a complete newbie. While I wait, I'm clearing an area of my property to set up on. Concentrating on taking the pines for now. I've been cutting the logs into 12-16 foot lengths. The 'big' ones are 16-20" or so at the base. I've been chipping the tops.
My question is at what point on a narrowing tree (log) do you stop? I'm sure this is a somewhat subjective question as a lot of you guys are sawing for money. And time = $$. But whats your general rule of thumb? Whats too small to put on the mill?
Thanks
Mac
Depends some on what you need, how tired you are at the end of the day, and what the weather for the next week is supposed to be. I often break small logs into three by fours; that seems to be a handy size to have around for cribbing, runners under a stack of lumber, and just generally useful for posts or the oddball framing situation. Stickers are another thing I always seem to need more of; I hate to make stickers out of a nice log. Realistically, if you need eight inch boards and you're down to nine inches at the small end, you're wasting your time to try to get something out of a log that isn't there. You'll get a sense of it after you saw a few hours as to what is worth the effort and what isn't. I'm not kidding about the weather; if you have more logs than you can get to before a storm (assuming you are sawing outside) it just makes sense to work on the good logs first and that way if you run out of time the stuff that's left for another time isn't a big deal. Sometimes it starts to look really good for firewood if it sits for another week or two.
You're right about it being subjective. Best thing is to experiment when you're starting out. Then you'll know what your minimum is going to be. A lot depends on what you need and how fast. Small logs do eat up more time for little yield. One thing I usually do is saw tops into 6x6 and 4x4. That way you get something useful and you're not wasting a lot of time trying to get 4/4 lumber out of the small stuff. I never have enough 4x4 and 6x6 for dunnage and other uses, so it's a good way to build up that inventory.
A 6" log will yield a 4x4 if it's a straight log. A 9" will yield a 6x6. Neither will yield much 2x or 4x lumber.
Enjoy your new mill and welome to theFF.
so it depends on what you want to do with the wood. for length, hardwood is usable at shorter lengths than softwood for framing. the lengths on my mill, is it has to be over 3 feet to span one bunk. a big 3 foot stump meaning 35 inches around, can be a mess as you move it or try to roll it, if it falls between the supports. I need 6 feet to use the clamp, and turner. I need 8 feet to use my clamp, roller and toe boards. each bunk has a log stop. I can do cookies or a shorter log using a jig to hold it. for diameter, there is a 2/3rds rule, it means if you want board, you can get a cant (sounds counterintuitive :)) that size. so a 12 inch log (at the diameter small end) should get you a 8 inch cant. when you mill through it, say at 1 inch, you can get about 8 1 inch boards 8 inches wide. so a log that is 20 feet long and tapers 15 inches (DLE) to 6 inches (DSE), can get a total square cant of 4 x 4 inches. so it would be better to cut wood in a thickness you can use and get to the 20 foot post. of you may decide you have no need for long stuff, and cut it to 6.5 foot logs of hard wood, or 10 footer if longer is needed, or a 12 and a 8 if that works for you. all this assumes the log is straight. any major change in diameter (just above a group of branches in pine) or a bend in the tree, may help you decide where to cut to get the most boards from a log.
Yes depends on what you are after. I have been sawing some 10 foot larch 4x4's about 7- 8" on small end. Four passes = $10/each. Larch slabs make good firewood for outside furnace. Typically I don't buy logs smaller than 12".
if you develop a standard pallet, the you cut logs to make boards to fit your pallet. mine are 6 foot 2 and 9 foot 2inch.
With me "it depends" on what the log is, what I have a need for, how easy it saws, and my mood at the time.
If I'm feeling good and there's a nice log with an 8" top I might saw it up for battens or narrow boards. If it's been a long day or I'm cutting something like knotty spruce, which always seems to give me troubles, I might look at a log with a 10" top and say 'forget it.'
I don't get much softwood here and what I do is always knotty so I usually don't bother with anything under 12" unless I need battens.
Some days I'll throw something in the firewood pile and then pull it back out a couple days later when I'm in a better mood. But usually when I do that I wish I'd just left it in the firewood pile. :)
I currently have a small pile of small spruce I'm hoping I can just throw away, or maybe turn into 4x4's, but am keeping just in case I run short on battens for my house siding next summer.
Congratulations on the new mill! I'm sure you'll love it.
It might be worthwhile to cut some logs shorter than 12', especially the smaller tops, unless you actually need a lot of 12 and 16' lumber. Turning a 16' log into two 8' logs might get you a better yield since the bottom log would have a larger top and thus produce wider boards.
Alan
The answer , if there is one, will be different every few miles. In oak I need 2 2x8 min. per log. Why?, because we live in oak and I can always sell all the 2x8 I can get. Anything smaller goes boomerang and I don't have a pallet market. A mill 50 miles north, west or south of me will have a completely different answer. There are mills in northern w. cedar that saw 6" poles. This is how it is and you may find it interesting.
I try to eat the whole pig if at all possible but there comes a point. I was doing that with some pines I harvested here and had to go back to paying work before I finished the last couple of pecker pole tops. They were probably 6 or 7" dia x 8' long.
A friend asked if he could drop off some logs from some clearing he was doing. When he came out a few days later there were some nice logs and then about a dozen poplar logs that couldn't have been 8". I asked why he brought them and he said "I hadn't planned on it but then I saw the little stuff on your deck and figured there must be something good in them after all". Always clear the deck even if it is into the bonfire pile :D
Quote from: MacPhly on November 23, 2020, 05:53:48 PM
In the course of a couple weeks, I went from considering an LT15 with no wheels to what I've now ordered... LT35HD. Will be here in 14ish weeks. So I'm a complete newbie. While I wait, I'm clearing an area of my property to set up on. Concentrating on taking the pines for now. I've been cutting the logs into 12-16 foot lengths. The 'big' ones are 16-20" or so at the base. I've been chipping the tops.
My question is at what point on a narrowing tree (log) do you stop? I'm sure this is a somewhat subjective question as a lot of you guys are sawing for money. And time = $$. But whats your general rule of thumb? Whats too small to put on the mill?
Thanks
Mac
I don't like to mill much below 10 or 12" diameter... you just don't get a return on your time like you do with a bigger log. however i've had a heck of a time getting my hands on a load of logs since I used up my 25,000 board feet of hemlock I clear cut where my new home will be getting built. when you run low on logs the smaller ones will work for some things but are frustrating if your looking to pump out some volume for your projects.. I might be cutting more of my own because prices seem to of gone up on my local Hemlock.. the truck load I just got didn't impress me for the money!!! but at least I have a load of nice 18" to 24" logs sitting there for me now incase we end up closing down again due to COVID... you will love your decision on the LT 35 HD. I started with an LT 15 used mill.., built trailer for it before using it this past spring and then quickly upgraded due to loving this new hobby to an LT 35 HD. its an awesome mill and you will absolutely love the hydraulics!!!!
10 inches small end or you pay by the hour. Tim
Quote from: Don P on November 23, 2020, 06:51:45 PM
I try to eat the whole pig if at all possible but there comes a point. I was doing that with some pines I harvested here and had to go back to paying work before I finished the last couple of pecker pole tops. They were probably 6 or 7" dia x 8' long.
A friend asked if he could drop off some logs from some clearing he was doing. When he came out a few days later there were some nice logs and then about a dozen poplar logs that couldn't have been 8". I asked why he brought them and he said "I hadn't planned on it but then I saw the little stuff on your deck and figured there must be something good in them after all". Always clear the deck even if it is into the bonfire pile :D
Unrelated to the question: Don't ever let people see you sawing stuff you don't like to saw!
3-4" is literally Too Small. The mill can clamp the stick but there is so much curve that I can't get a right angle. The cant ends up out of square.
I will saw it if I can clamp it. I tell my customers if under about 12" I charge by the hour. For myself. I can cut a a 6X6 crib block out of a 9-10 inch short log. Some high value wood like cherry and walnut I will cut short pieces 2-3 ft long.
Quote from: moodnacreek on November 23, 2020, 07:13:42 PM
Quote from: Don P on November 23, 2020, 06:51:45 PM
I try to eat the whole pig if at all possible but there comes a point. I was doing that with some pines I harvested here and had to go back to paying work before I finished the last couple of pecker pole tops. They were probably 6 or 7" dia x 8' long.
A friend asked if he could drop off some logs from some clearing he was doing. When he came out a few days later there were some nice logs and then about a dozen poplar logs that couldn't have been 8". I asked why he brought them and he said "I hadn't planned on it but then I saw the little stuff on your deck and figured there must be something good in them after all". Always clear the deck even if it is into the bonfire pile :D
Unrelated to the question: Don't ever let people see you sawing stuff you don't like to saw!
I hit the like button. But I really really like this. And its a good rule to live by. Tim.
Generally if it won't make at least a 4x4 I don't saw it. I try to guide customers away from sawing less than 10" SED logs. Like others, there's always a need for dunnage around a sawmill.
If a customer is paying, I'll saw air if he wants. 😝 It's rare that I will refuse to saw a log a customer wants cut but sometimes I do if too small or crooked etc.
Small logs are mostly juvenile wood and the lumber is usually poor. Boards that are predominantly juvenile wood cut from the juvenile core are very prone to warp and twist, and I cannot use or sell twisted and warped boards.
If it's hard to clamp, I try not to mess with it. Value of recovered lumber is a factor.
When I'm sawing cedar I'll cut anything big enough to make a 4x4x 8. Takes only a couple minutes and pays about $20.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59254/F7E910DC-1666-4F8F-BA01-0294B3BBEFAF.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1606182806)
This 66" long 6x8 came from an ugly short piece that was in the bonfire pile. Sold for $75
"If I can unload it from your pickup truck or trailer by hand, then it's a stick, not a log, and I don't saw sticks, only logs."
And "If a 5 gallon bucket fits over the end, it's too small."
5 gallon buckets are almost 12 inch diameter, everybody has one, and that keeps customers from getting confused between circumference and diameter.
These are the corollaries to my "If it won't roll, it's not a log, it's still part of a tree, and I only saw logs."
I tell customers that I'll saw 8" or larger.
At the least, I know I can get a 4x4 (2 2x4's).
Great information! Thank you all for chiming in.
Mac
Quote from: YellowHammer on November 24, 2020, 07:15:44 AM
keeps customers from getting confused between circumference and diameter
:D smiley_thumbsup
Here are some responses I've made.
10"
12"
8" if its straight.
Little logs give little boards.
Put the smaller stuff in back of the pile and see how you feel when we get to it.
Once you start using your larger boards, you'll have a lot of smaller pieces left over.
It's a matter of clamping it, not going to set any production records.
I'll saw whatever you want me to.
Quote from: YellowHammer on November 24, 2020, 07:15:44 AM
"If I can unload it from your pickup truck or trailer by hand, then it's a stick, not a log, and I don't saw sticks, only logs."
There is the memorable genesis of this saying. It still makes me smile when I remember it.
I had a guy several years ago call me up wanting me to saw up an Osage Orange log. He was one of those "rabbit brain" guys on the phone, so I repeatedly asked him how big it was, and all I got back from him was "Oh, it's 3 feet across, no problem, maybe bigger."
Well, I'm always on the lookout for big Osage so I said if it was 3 feet across, I'd buy it from him if he'd bring it to me. That really got him fired up and some time later that day I see some ratty old pickup truck rolling in the driveway, with no trailer. So I mention to my wife and another guy that the way he described the log, it would need a trailer, and this didn't look good. Then, I figured it was so big and heavy, he must have had to buck the log short to get it in the truck and all I would have are a bunch of osage cutoffs, which were worthless. I've had that happen before, so I started to get that sinking feeling.
After he rattled to stop in from of the barn, he said "Here it is! How much are you going to pay me?!" and we looked at each other, then looked at him, then looked over the side of the bed like one of those comedy movies. And sure enough, in the bed of the truck there was a little 3 foot long osage branch, maybe a couple inches across, about the length of a crooked baseball bat. I just laughed when I realized what had happened. Then he said, "See, it's 3 feet across, how much is it worth?" :D :D So I said, "No, it's 3 feet
long, its only 3 inches
across." However, the guy still didn't get it, so then my smart aleck kicked in.
So I went and got my Doyle Scale stick, which was longer than the osage limb, measured the diameter, then acted like I was doing some math in my head and told my wife that we owed this guy $1, like as if we were buying any other log. Real business like. The guy's face fell and he said something like it wouldn't even pay for the gas to get here and I made a comment that he should have brought a couple more. :D :D By that time, nearby folks were trying not to just blow out laughing because I really don't think the guy ever figured it out. Finally, I broke it to him that only sticks fit in the back of a pickup truck and I don't saw or buy sticks, only logs.
I later took the osage stick and leaned it against a tree, sticking out of a five gallon bucket for a couple years, and would use it as a teaching aid for future customers who wanted to bring logs.
Something to think about when you double the diameter and area multiplies 4x. If you cut twice at many 10" logs as 20" you only get half as much lumber from the 10" logs.
Quote from: bushhog920 on November 26, 2020, 11:14:56 PM
Something to think about when you double the diameter and area multiplies 4x. If you cut twice at many 10" logs as 20" you only get half as much lumber from the 10" logs.
Correct. And that goes to what I say about spending "x" minutes and then looking at the small pile of narrow boards and thinking "was that worth it?" Now if the wood is valuable enough, then maybe it is, but if you are charging by the bd/ft, then you are loosing money. A few 10" in the mix and you can deal with it, but a whole job of 10" logs? Hourly rate and let the customer decide if it's worth it.
A commercial mill might actually saw logs down to 6", but that's because they have the whole tree to process, and they can fire small logs into a computerised "chip n saw" chain as fast as the conveyor will take them. If you have to manually load the log and turn the log to make 2 or 3 (low grade) 2x4s, was it worth it?
I had to saw a log (really a stick for my neighbor). It was a 5 ft. chunk of dry iron wood. About 6 to 7 in .in dia meter . Got about 4 boards and was it purty. I poured some water on it and it really shined. Thats a big ironwood up here. Usually they fall over and twist about 2 turns. Hard to hold one that small.
Right after I got my first mill 25 years ago I got a call from a guy wanting me to saw his walnut logs. Sure, bring em out. He shows up a few days later and I ask where are the logs? He replies in the trunk of his compact car! As it turned out this guy is a Kansas shop teacher and wants me to crosscut his "logs" at about 45 degrees 1-1/2" thick. He is going to have his students make walnut slab clocks.
As the relationship matured, I ended up sawing several thousand of these clock slabs. I would suppose every family in Kansas that had a kid in shop class during this period has a walnut clock hanging on there wall. :D
I think I could use a few "YellowHammerisms" on my website FAQ page. Are they copyrighted? Probably have to pay a royalty. ;D
A few years back I posted about sawing and building with grape vines. Average 1/4 inch diameter, pretty small.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/grape_vines_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1606599892)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1972.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1401146293)
These showed up at Customsawyer's place to be sawn.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1973.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1401146335)
And Jake...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1975.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1401146360)
Promptly made propellers!!! :D
Quote from: Larry on November 28, 2020, 03:47:43 PM
I think I could use a few "YellowHammerisms" on my website FAQ page. Are they copyrighted? Probably have to pay a royalty. ;D
You are welcome to use them, except sometimes tell us a good story of a customer who violated them. :D :D
Quote from: YellowHammer on November 24, 2020, 07:15:44 AM
"If I can unload it from your pickup truck or trailer by hand, then it's a stick, not a log, and I don't saw sticks, only logs."
Those are definately sticks, and sticks don't saw well. If I'm not mistaken, Jake still has a piece of those propellers sitting on his front porch as a useful reminder and a good laugh.
In this part of the country anybody with a chainsaw and a pickup is a logger.
So I get a call from a "logger" wanting to sell cedar a few days ago. He says logs are prime and all 14 - 16". We agree on a price and I tell him I'll take it all. He shows up this morning with a trailer load of logs 3 to 6" sed with one nice plump 12" log. Since I was in a good mood, I thought this would be a teaching moment. I explained why I could not buy his logs. He said he only brought the small ones because that was all he could lift on his trailer. Sent him on his way and figured that would be the last time I saw him.
Couple of hours later I get a call that his neighbor was going to load the big logs on his trailer with a tractor and if it would be all right if he came back. I said sure. This evening I now have about 500 board foot of really nice cedar logs setting in my lot. He said he will be back tomorrow with the rest of his logs.
I think sometimes creating a relationship and understanding is well worth the effort that will benefit both parties.
Why is it that every time someone is showing a picture of a bad example am I in it?
:D :D :D All in good fun my friend!!
Quote from: Magicman on November 28, 2020, 05:10:08 PM
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1972.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1401146293)
These showed up at Customsawyer's place to be sawn.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1973.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1401146335)
And Jake...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN1975.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1401146360)
Promptly made propellers!!! :D
Those small ones are hard to clamp . I bolted on some 1 1/2 id square tubing vertical on the inside of the frame about 8" in from the edge. Then drop in some 1 1/2 square sacrificial oak pieces about 14" long to clamp against, saw right through them with no worry about hitting the stops and holds the log good. I use those a lot on small cedar and walnut logs with a lot of taper or crooked, most time we leave the natural edge as there wouldn't be much left trying to square the up. Steve
When I first got into sawing ERC commercially over 30 years ago I knew there had to be a better way than sawing on a manual LT30. We made money, but I wanted a faster way so I built my own
end dogging scragg. Worked great and I could saw a 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 out of a 4" log if needed. There was a market for them and a world of 4" posts that were unacceptable for fence posts because of heavy sapwood. Woodmizer had built a scragg and I was ready to upgrade, but they did not produce any for sale. Baker came along and built an end dogging band scragg that would saw a 3 7/16 by 3 7/16 which is what a mailbox post is sized at. So we expanded with that scragg. It lets us saw 30 to 60 5" to 11" by up to 11' long logs per hour. Best we have done is saw 90 4" x 4" x 8' in 50 minutes. Logs were presorted. $4.95 cost of log, $14.00 for each post. Takes 4 to 5 people to be efficient. But you can do the math and see that it was a money maker.
The right machine makes sawing small logs efficient. Being efficient and having good markets makes sawing small logs worth it.
The economic law of diminishing returns kicks in when sawing small logs. There is a window of log sizes that makes the best profit. The smaller the log, the smaller the profit. At some point, there is zero profit in sawing too small of a log. You need to know for your operation what that log size is. You can change the equation by changing the variables. Change equipment (difficult)or change your pricing. (Easy). This is why it is important to know the profit to be made on sawing different log sizes. Every operation is different.
I don't mind milling a customer's two or three fence post size logs. But I don't want a do a truck load of them. Some folks around here want heirloom lumber from leyland cypress trees (or any species) they cut down in their yards because a family member planted them. It is hard to say no to that.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_0464.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1330393459)
Customer said he had some cedar logs for me to saw and dropped them off when I was not there. That second one from the far back is a real prize as is the one on the far right. These violate all the "Yellowhammer Rules". One of the good reasons that I do not custom saw anyone logs anymore. @cedarman, run these through your scragg :).
Moving up from 1/4 inch diameter, I saw a great deal of 1-4 inch diameter for passage doors, cabinetry, furniture,architectural millwork, stairways, signage, walls, framing, lots of custom milling, and more. I am truly the Wizard Of Crap .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35190/stair_parts4.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1606667003)
I've got some large poison ivy vines that run upward of 3" in diameter. I've always wondered if they could be used for something. Maybe I should send you some to try out. Right up your alley. PPE required when sawing/machining.
Sounds like nothings to small for you tule 😂. Yellowhammers head would be spinning with his five gallon bucket and being able to lift by hand criteria 😂😂
Danny, what did you do to deserve a load like that? Your reputation must say you are a magician with your saw. My scragg would say, sorry, not sawing today, go someplace else. We get a few logs like that once in a while, but we have a nice chat with the person that brought them.
Let the logs set for a year or until the bark loosens. Pressure wash the bark off . Display for the artistic type and sell for 10 times normal value because of their rareness. I hope they would go extinct.
Yes, can't let those breed.
Re: When you're sawing, how small is too small to bother? (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=112917.msg1773525#msg1773525)
The answer to this question is "when it is not profitable", not "when it's not easy". Easy is easy making a profit comes hard. As long as there is profit, we'll cut anything for anyone, at any size, 1/4" to 77". 8)
WOC
How Its Made - 843 Heather Gems - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=+twigs+vacuum+dye+epoxy+press&&view=detail&mid=29951A033ED62E026EEE29951A033ED62E026EEE&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3D%2520twigs%2520vacuum%2520dye%2520epoxy%2520press%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVR%26sp%3D-1%26pq%3Dtwigs%2520vacuum%2520dye%2520epoxy%2520press%26sc%3D0-28%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D52F82135A7444BE5BC8883583EAD1CD9)
In general I draw the line at 8" ish small end unless it a landscape tie job. I'll do those to 5" small end BUT the have to very clean and limbed tight to the trunk.
Other wise it does depend a LOT on who is asking you to cut the little guys.
My Daughter came over to the mill with a "STICK" of Lilac and asked if I could get 2 x 1" thick pieces out of it for her to make a couple of Christmas presents. The things Dads will do for daughters. Had to plane them too.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_2954.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1606752827)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22409/IMG_2953.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1606752827)
She ended up with 3 pieces 12" long and about 4 ish wide by the REQUIRED 1" thick
Quote from: doc henderson on November 30, 2020, 10:41:17 AM
How Its Made - 843 Heather Gems - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=+twigs+vacuum+dye+epoxy+press&&view=detail&mid=29951A033ED62E026EEE29951A033ED62E026EEE&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3D%2520twigs%2520vacuum%2520dye%2520epoxy%2520press%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVR%26sp%3D-1%26pq%3Dtwigs%2520vacuum%2520dye%2520epoxy%2520press%26sc%3D0-28%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D52F82135A7444BE5BC8883583EAD1CD9)
Bingo,,,,$$$
When I lived in England I would see heather everywhere--it is the common weed seen in open fields.
Someone was smart enough to take the front yard trash and market it as "gems". It makes a Wizards heart like mine swell WOC
Sawing with a tk2200, I'll go down to a 8" top in mixed southern hardwood if it's straight and no knots. Make good out of what I can when buying tree length logs. Sort everything from 8-11.5/12 for a steady 6x6 mkt. just like the rest of it, at what point is what you are doing not profitable?