I am new here but have been reading here for a couple of years. I am a weekend woodworker with a lot of good woodworking tools but I didn't start out that way. I spent a lot and wasted a lot trying to find what works for me. One of the things that keeps me coming back to this place is the amazing free advice you experienced guys share.
I have been thinking serious about getting a mill to start building a sawmill/woodworking set up to make some money when I retire in a couple of years hopefully. I don't want to buy the wrong mill and have to upgrade later. I plan on doing custom sawing and milling whatever I need for my own woodworking.
So, here is my question, If you had a budget of say 100K (just for fun) what mill, kiln, tractor, whatever, other equipment would you get?
If I knew what I know now I'd have started when I was 25 rather than when I was 50. You'll need a hydraulic mill preferably with a diesel. Look for one that has low maintenance, better to be sawing than fixing or waiting for parts that can't be bought uptown. Steve
lol That is going to be hard to beat. I will get a hydraulic mill for sure, can't work like when I was 25.
where in alabama
For 100k,
- the simple design of a manual mill means less parts to maintain
- a grapple and skidsteer for moving around the yard
- a truck with grapple for pickup and delivery
- a chop saw to maximize profits
Having a wife who enjoys working along side you... priceless.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20200718-sawmill-fresh-cut-pine.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607598342)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20191026-sawmilling-pine-for-woodcarving-6-skidsteer-grapple.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607598426)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20201109-sterling-truck-grapple2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607598463)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20200505_093353-sawmilling-gina.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607598274)
Near Anniston/Oxford.
That grapple truck looks handy.
Chopsaw? For cutting slabs into firewood? You're ringing every penny out of that log.
Can that grapple on the truck be changed out with forks for delivering bundled lumber?
What about a tractor with a front loader or an articulated loader instead of the skid steer?
If you have a loader of some sort do you need a hydraulic loader on the saw??
Forks vs grapple.
Pole barn or shed for working in the shade or out of the rain?
Yes, a knuckle crane can run a dangle rotator fork (aka sheetrock forks, material handler forks etc) but the price to buy them will buy thousands of firewood sacks from vietnam which will be much, much more valuable delivered firewood than bundled slabs which are worth very little.. And that grapple can unloaded the loop sacks no problem.
Cheap example
Material Handling Forks - Truck Utilities (https://www.truckutilities.com/category/cranes-aerials-loaders/crane-accessories/material-handling-forks/)
A skid steer is designed for its full rated capacity on the front axle.. Even if you flip it the axle housings wont care. A tractor is much more likely to break a steer knuckle. If you dont like bobcats and want a bargain for the money, compact articulated wheel loader with a quick attach and aux hyd ports for a grapple is where its at. Straight axle and high ply rubber. Theyll pick 6-10k no problem without rutting the lot up.
An old backhoe, skip loader or maybe a case W11, W12, W14 are workhorses for budget folks. Especially if log trucks are in your future. A self loader load can command a premium for the unloading.
I would have built lumber sheds first and put the sawmill back in a corner up on piers [second story[.
putting the mill in the middle of the yard was a huge mistake and trying to build sheds when you are sawing is too much. I could go on and on, did it all wrong.
Quote from: moodnacreek on December 10, 2020, 08:21:27 AM
I would have built lumber sheds first and put the sawmill back in a corner up on piers [second story[.
putting the mill in the middle of the yard was a huge mistake and trying to build sheds when you are sawing is too much. I could go on and on, did it all wrong.
"I could go on and on, did it all wrong."
Don't beat yourself up too badly, as you are not the only one.
If we all had the hindsight vision to start some of us could have saved a lot of time and coins.
GAB
Quote from: moodnacreek on December 10, 2020, 08:21:27 AM
I could go on and on, did it all wrong.
Yeah, story of my life.
Its a bit tormenting how ya finally wisen up right about the time when you dont have the energy or drive or physical ability to start over anymore.
Yup, we do not get "undo's" nor "redo's". We get one chance to screw up and usually succeed!! ::)
well some feel we learn more from our mistakes... so. I am happy as a hobby guy with a skid steer, with a bucket for grade, and cleanup work. forks to move slabs and pallets. a grapple for logs and brush. a crane to lift logs out of trucks and trailers. I have a mid sized hydraulic mill. I have a 1 ton truck and a 32 foot gooseneck trailer rated for 18K net. If you buy quality used stuff, if it turns out to not fit your bill, you can get most of your money out of it. I think a skid steer works better around a mil as you can spin on a dime. if you buy attachments, and need a bigger skid steer later, you can still use most attachments. The dealers and service people are most important, especially if you buy used. My Cat 277c I got used with a bucket. already had the forks, grapple and crane. sold my old wheeled 2060 mustang for what I had paid for it used, and got the use with repairs for years. My midsized mill is able to cut within 3 inches of the width of their biggest commercial mill. I bought the mill new, but would not be afraid to buy used. If you want to sell lumber and or milling services, you need a medium mill. if just for you could be a smaller one. the advantage of not getting in a hurry and buying it all on day one, is deals come along and you have a chance to see how things work together. I had a 7 k car trailer I moved my first skid steer with. bigger tracked skid loader to put our pool in (it could walk on fresh sand). now i needed a bigger trailer and a truck to pull it. all my stuff is matched with other stuff. i only have had to trim a log once I could not safely load and trans port. green 4 foot diam. elm, 14 feet long. cut it to an 8 foot log, and put it on the trailer. still have not milled it as it is too big for my mill as is. over time you will find weak links and can upgrade as needed. beats buying something so big, it is not supported by you other equipment.
Quote from: Trackerbuddy on December 10, 2020, 08:06:24 AM
Chopsaw? For cutting slabs into firewood? You're ringing every penny out of that log.
Can that grapple on the truck be changed out with forks for delivering bundled lumber?
What about a tractor with a front loader or an articulated loader instead of the skid steer?
If you have a loader of some sort do you need a hydraulic loader on the saw??
Forks vs grapple.
Pole barn or shed for working in the shade or out of the rain?
We cut slabs and off cuts and then split into kindling, even better profit. :) Absolutely, nothing is wasted. Grapple can stay on, it can grab a set of forks to lift whatever is on a pallet. Tracked skidsteer, very versatile, and I am limited for space for where I am at and where I tend to get myself sometimes.
Sawmill is all manual. I use the grapple on the skidsteer to move around the heavy stuff. I have forks too and they come in handy for moving the pallets of lumber away from the mill and into storage area.
Barn or shed would be nice but I don't mind working in the rain. The harder it rains the happier I am. When you're born on an island out in the North Atlantic Ocean, you tend to look at weather a little differently that most. ;)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20180809-pottery-kiln-sticks-10-skidsteer-grapple.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1546946258)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20180607-big-ash-4-skidsteer-grapple-jim.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1607608857)
Quote from: mike_belben on December 10, 2020, 08:12:49 AM
...Cheap example Material Handling Forks - Truck Utilities (https://www.truckutilities.com/category/cranes-aerials-loaders/crane-accessories/material-handling-forks/) ...
$2K for one of those isn't a bad price to pay. It would probably cost me near that to get something half as good made locally.
Mr. Jcrumley Sir:
Knowing very little, I started with nothing and still have all of it left, my suggestion would be to purchase a hydraulic wide head mill like an (W-M) LT40 with a diesel engine that you can add an extension bed to later on, and an idry kiln capable of drying 16'-8" lumber.
If you plan on doing custom sawing, at customer locations, the log moving equipment will do you no good, unless you make an additional trip to get it and that costs time and money that the customer may not be willing to pay for.
At this time I'm thinking that you may not have a feeling as to what your market might be so you need the option of being able to change or add variables without having to sell what you have to purchase something else.
As an example - I had a request to saw some long timbers and I told the asker that I could only saw so long but that I would supply him with the serial number of my mill and he could purchase an extension bed that would fit my mill and when the job was done I would remove the extension bed from my mill and he could do what he wanted with it. He decided not to do it. Note: I did not tell him no.
Please note that I have an LT40 and most of my experience is with that mill. That does not mean that other mills might not be better fit for you.
Another suggestion would be to plan on staying home and playing with the mill in your yard for at least one year to get acclamated to it before putting on shows that will be the talk of the town for years to come. Some of those shows are not good advertising.
You could also find out that your best market is drying wood. One day I spoke with a man who had 4 wood drying kilns and had a backlog of work waiting for him.
Another suggestion would be to spend some time and visit people with mills that you are considering. I would suggest that you spend a few hours off bearing each one. You may appreciate some mill designs better that others.
Like it has been said by someone on the forum and probably else where we like to spend other peoples money.
I hope view helps you and I wish you the best.
GAB
Knowing what I know now? These are my thoughts at nearly three years in.
I would only saw to sell high quality kiln dried hardwood. No trailer decking for sale and no framing lumber for sale. Everyone wants 16'-20' trailer decking, log acquisition and lumber handling makes trailer decking more expensive than my market supports. Too many want the local custom sawmill to sell framing lumber at prices less than the local builder supply and box stores. I quit trying to compete in the retail framing and utility lumber market. I will go portable and saw whatever a customer wants from his/her logs.
I would choose a higher production mill that would still be reasonably portable like an LT 40 Super Hydraulic or LT 50. I should have purchased sharpening equipment when I bought the mill - it would have paid for itself in 20 months.
I would build a sawmill shed/sharpening shed and separate lumber storage early on.
I would develop a working waste disposal plan. Sawdust doesn't require the forethought that slab disposal does.
I would put in a Nyle L200M 40' container kiln. Sawing and selling air dried hardwood is profitable but kiln drying that same lumber can significantly increase profit. A planer/molder opens many more avenues for selling kiln dried lumber.
I already have or have access to log and lumber handling equipment, I'd still try to get by with it until other equipment has reached pay back.
Thanks for all the replies and wisdom so far. :P. I'm not jumping into anything crazy. I really don't have a plan other than the woodworking I already do. I just want a retirement business to supplement my income. I have 20 acres of mostly pine and oak to play with. I'll probably do most everything at home.
The guys here passing on information is priceless. Thanks again
....such a good start to a new thread!
jcrumley--a key issue for you is # of hours in a day: to get everything in place so you can walk to your own lumberyard and pick out what you need and build that next piece of furniture to generate income is going to be a challenge. But if I can do it anyone can. (Was a language major in college: allows me to cuss fluently, and I do daily, in 4 languages every time I screw up). I love building--furniture, kitchens, new buildings. Almost never use any wood but my own. As a result, I build much less than I'd like and most of it for my own projects, so no income (but get use and enjoyment). But I love logging and saw-milling as well and have that down to what works for me. My 2 ¢'s--what hat do you want to wear and for how long. In other words, decide on being a hobby mill or a professional one and get what equipment you can to get the operation working smoothly to supply yourself with the lumber you require, and still have the energy to put on your woodworking hat. GAB makes a good point with building a kiln, although I think the best fine furniture is made with air-dried lumber, so you could sticker/air dry and just wait a year or two.... doc henderson's comments are right on and worth several read thru's...
jimbarry--nice pics, equipment and explanations! Agree that a manual mill with all kinds of support equipment is the way to go.
mike_belben--what tormenting? I haven't wisen'd up much at all, so am actually pretty content... ;D.
All the best, Rob
I think he said he was going to do custom sawing, for that I'd get a hyd mill. Steve
My original intent was to saw and sell so I built my startup business profile around that. I quickly found out that I needed log/lumber handling equipment and all that I had was an old 1530 John Deere without a FEL. I would need inventory and I did not have the required shed(s) nor the place to build one except 46 miles away at my farm property.
Actually all of what I did not have worked in my best interest because before the first year ended I had migrated to providing only portable custom sawing. No inventory, storage, log/material handling, waste disposal, buying logs, nor selling anything.
Thankfully the used sawmill that I bought was an LT40 SuperHydraulic. I could not imagine having anything less than a full sized hydraulic sawmill regardless of the manufacturer/brand. If I bought a new one today the only thing different would be that it would absolutely have a wide head.
That was 19 years ago and I am completing my best sawing/income year ever. Being age 77, I have no idea how many more years that I can continue sawing but I guess that I will know when I get there.
All great advice given here. We have the WM sharpener and setter, and its paid for itself in a year. We also have a Nyle L200M kiln unit in a 10x20 bldg. Its currently working to pay itself off. We use it primarily for drying firewood and kindling that we sell. With those two items, that puts the budget over 100K, but I figure if they are paying for themselves, its still within budget.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20200603_073644-kiln-firewood-batch7-day4-kiln-dried-firewood-results2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1591183370)
Quote from: jcrumley on December 10, 2020, 10:36:22 AM. . . I'm not jumping into anything crazy. I really don't have a plan other than the woodworking I already do. I just want a retirement business to supplement my income. I have 20 acres of mostly pine and oak to play with. I'll probably do most everything at home. . . .
There we go - now we've got some details in that post to work with.
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You've touched a nerve ending here jcrumley.
All of us, at some point or other, have said to ourselves, "Man! This isn't working out for me." or "Well shoot, THAT was a learning day."
You're asking us to sum up those learning days. . . the shoulda, coulda, woulda details.
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So here goes, the view from 2000' up:
You love woodworking, that's a great start. You know what good lumber should be.
You'll be retired in not too many years, you'll have your days to work on this new line of work, and maybe not have to dip into the grocery money. ;)
You've got twenty acres of pine and oak to work with.
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There are (pick one) lumberjacks, sawyers, lumber yards and woodworkers.
Any one of these categories could easily demolish a $100 k. start up budget.
These steps also make up a $profit pyramid, each one makes a % of the final retail price tag.
Get some networking going: ground crew for a tree service, off bearing a sawmill for other folks, or stacking a kiln or feeding a moulder/planer is invaluable. Figure out the $ markets, see which operations are the best fit for what you'd like to spend time doing. Spend a bit on safety equipment to keep you healthy while doing all that.
You say you're not willing to jump into anything crazy, always good.
Look at used equipment and don't be allergic to changing that up. Everybody on the forum has gone through changes of location, equipment, end products, etc. etc. Learn the basic mechanics of the equipment that you invest in. Also, learn when to call in a hired gun specialist to deal with something that goes beyond your own orbit. Maintenance costs less than repairs
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In your neck of the woods, @GAB (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=18738) has struck a chord by raising the wood drying business. I suspect there's lot of guys out there with all sorts of sawmills.
Your side hustle could be lumber that has gone from the logger, to the mill, and now to you for drying. See the ads at the top of this page. You'd want some space, 1 or 2 acres, with a pole barn and an electrical drop. The vacuum kilns (@Just Right @Stephen1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=3648) @boonesyard (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=39257)) would give you a niche for specialty markets, or a container kiln (@YellowHammer) gives you more through put. There's a technical side to drying lumber which involves both science and chicken sacrifice. Voodoo stuff ;) that forum doctors can help you through. Material handling is the key here and hydraulics are your friends. Look at the galleries put up by the Forum members and you'll see how I avoid a bad back. ;D You could buy a mill once the drying biz has passed the 'paid for' stage, and do some woodlot improvements on your twenty acres. Kilns take some time to dry, time that you can use to do the other things you enjoy. Milling and drying your own trees would fill the need to see the tree go to final form in your woodworking shop.
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The best advice of all: start soon (before you retire!)
Good luck and let us know how you progress.
Number 1. You have an income now that is taxed at a certain rate. Now is the time to "start" the business so that the depreciation of the startup equipment gives you a BIG tax refund by lowering your taxable income. Later on when you have 50k of expenses for 4k of sawing income is the WRONG time to start being a good accountant. You wont get back anything from it.
Im gonna throw this out there. Get a crewcab diesel dually [$15-20k] a tracked skidsteer, [15-25] a dual tandem gooseneck [10] and a sawmill that goes on the deck of the gooseneck and sits low. Put the buckets and grapples on the side. Put the skid steer on back straddling the mill bed. You saw right on the trailer. Parbuckle big logs up onto the bed with steel ramps on the rub rail. No problem.
Now youre a one of a kind portable sawyer.. Youve brought your saw and your logging machine. Seek out jobs for people with more money than sense. Hourly charge and make it a big one.
Youll get jobs of all sorts.. dirtwork, clearing, sawing, whatever. The only way i could make money in trees was if i got them for free, and ponds was the only way that ever happened.
A benefit of this is you leave them the mess. You leave them the chore of stacking and slab piles. You absolve yourself of the stickering and warpage and other drying issues. Youve sold every minute of your time with no rejected pieces that were a lot of time and labor to produce. No one coming to your gate at 7pm on sunday for wood. And youve got a perfect spinoff introduction machine for other types of work if you so choose. Lot clearing, fence or barn jobs, decks and decorative structures etc. People who cant do the work but have an attachment to mom or dads tree out back.
And.. These 4 pieces of equipment will never truly lose value. The entire world is thirsty for diesel crew cabs [that you may want to sleep in if the job is far] goosenecks, skid steers and sawmills. Theyre the 70 chevelle of today. An almost risk free investment when you consider that uncle same gives you an income tax rebate to buy them, the customer pays you to deplete them and then the market keeps paying more and more dollars for them. All of my iron is worth more than i paid by 30-100%
Beware a CDL may be required for this rig depending on your state. But im sure glad i got that behind me. Its just one more sharp tool.
That truck n trailer will also allow you to pull a small dozer or haul logs in or out. Other machines. Deliver sheds and so forth. If you setup at home you are limited to your market and its bearings. If youre mobile you can target the richies 70 miles away.
Good thinking Mike 👍
Mike is spot on on taxes. And the equipment he lists gives extreme flexibility for money making. The equipment listed can do so many different things 👍
I do all of that now Mike, and my only startup expense was a $20K sawmill 19 years ago. No dually, no skidsteer, and no gooseneck. I drive up to the customer's logs and the customer provides the log/lumber handling and the labor. I get paid and leave a stack of lumber, and a pile of slabs and sawdust. I do not buy logs nor sell anything. (I actually got a call while I was typing this asking for lumber.)
I am not suggesting that anyone should pattern their business profile after mine, but simply saying that there are fairly simple ways to start up a sawing business.
Don't start with a "hobby" sized sawmill and get a website.
The advice on taxes and setting up a business a count with the CRA/IRS gets my total buy-in. A certified accountant is a must, particularly for the first five years of startup.
However, seems that the advice so far has been focused on how the OP could become the next mike belben or Magicman.
Quote from: Magicman on December 10, 2020, 01:49:19 PMI am not suggesting that anyone should pattern their business profile after mine, but simply saying that there are fairly simple ways to start up a . . . . . business.
Bang on!
The OP has laid out some super broad goals to shoot for.
A wood drying business, a general contractor with a sawmill or a mobile sawyer are all shots in the dark without more focus from him.
@jcrumely could get focused advice if we heard a bit more from him re what direction his gut tells him.
Sorry guys, I'm still on my day job. I am really enjoying all the input. Great stuff. You all have answered true and genuine which is not to be taken lightly.
Like I said, this is something I want for retirement so, yes I'm going to keep working for now and try to get my feet more in a business plan. I figured I would work mostly at home but I'm not going to turn away from going on the road if the opportunity is there. I'm just getting ready. I want to start early next year.
Oh yeah, the 100k budget i threw out was just a number to get the conversation started.
A hydraulic mill is where I would like to start. I like the idea of a drying business also.
I'm reading and taking notes, so if there are more questions let me know.
Quote from: Magicman on December 10, 2020, 01:49:19 PM
I do all of that now Mike, and my only startup expense was a $20K sawmill 19 years ago. No dually, no skidsteer, and no gooseneck. I drive up to the customer's logs and the customer provides the log/lumber handling and the labor. I get paid and leave a stack of lumber, and a pile of slabs and sawdust. I do not buy logs nor sell anything. (I actually got a call while I was typing this asking for lumber.)
I am not suggesting that anyone should pattern their business profile after mine, but simply saying that there are fairly simple ways to start up a sawing business.
Don't start with a "hobby" sized sawmill and get a website.
Hearing everybody's opinion leads me to thinking 🤔 of another topic on here. Can you make a living running a sawmill alone. THE MAJORITY SAID NO. So I think Mike's recommendations sounds pretty sensible from a big diversification of money making opportunities. If the focus is on just sawing portable I think Magicman is absolutely correct on a bigger Mill with hydraulics. It is what you make of it. I admire Magicman! He listens, takes care of his customers and is a mover and shaker. There are several people on here that seem to do pretty darn good portable sawing and I think that's awesome. They all have some very good advice 👍
I wanted a mill for years and then was finally able to justify it to myself about 3 years ago. I sold my house, paid off the bank note, and bought another house that needed a remodel and shop added. Ended up about $50k in the positive after the house swap (but before any reno work).
Didn't think there would be any way I could afford a hydraulic mill so was looking at used manual mills when I stumbled on a used mostly hydraulic mill close by (Timberking B-16) that had been left outside and neglected for 12-15 years. Took a couple thousand dollars and quite a few hours but got it up and running good. I probably have $6-7k invested in that.
There is no logging here so nowhere to buy logs or have them delivered. I soon figured out we didn't have a trailer in the family that was worth a toot for hauling logs so I paid $3500 for a used deckover 14k trailer.
Then I realized my old 350 chevy wasn't cutout for hauling a 14k trailer and logs so I found a used Ram 2500 with V10 for $2500.
I needed a place to setup the mill and store logs and lumber and lucked into a wonderful piece of property (4 acres) that's zoned ag and is right on the edge of town for $4500.
Then I figured out my dad's 70hp Kubota was a dangerous machine once I started picking up logs in excess of 2000 pounds, which is very common since we mainly have hardwoods here. Quickly found out there were a lot of logs it wouldn't lift. So I went out looking and found a Bobcat 873 skidloader with 3500 hours for $10k. It has a 4500 pound tipping load and I wouldn't want anything less. Added a set of regular forks and grapple forks.
Then I needed a place to air dry lumber so I bought a 24x40' car port with 12' sidewalls and had it put up for $6000 and then added a wood framed lean-to.
At this point I was all out of money to spend and I started sawing. Although the mill was mainly purchased for personal use I wanted to make money with it as well.
First I wanted to be like Magicman but soon realized that here in the rural prairie there aren't a lot of good saw logs and that most people that own land with trees have no desire to see them cut down and turned into lumber. I've had very little call for custom sawing and the jobs I have had have only been 2-3 logs, and most of them poor quality.
Then I wanted to be like Yellowhammer but I soon discovered that people didn't come beating down my doors looking for woodworking lumber. I also found out that it takes a lot of time and effort to produce good quality lumber and it also takes a lot of time and effort to find and built a market for it.
I have a full time job that keeps me busy and a ton of personal projects that keep me busy and I was spending a lot of time doing things I didn't enjoy doing, like trying to market my sawmill operation. So in the end I decided to be like many other members here and just saw for myself, which I've enjoyed very much. I still sell some lumber here and there but it's not one of my main goals anymore.
But what about all that stuff I bought for my sawmill operation?
I love having the skidloader and couldn't give it up. Not only do I use it around the mill but it's gotten a lot of use doing dirt work and other construction projects. Very glad the mill prompted me to buy it.
I love having a heavy truck and trailer. I've made some really good buys at auctions of large quantities of old rough sawn lumber and it's nice to have something that can be quickly loaded and pulls with ease. It also comes in handy shuttling the skidloader and lumber back and forth from my house/shop to the sawmill location.
I love the land I bought for the sawmill. It's a great place to hang out and I doubt I'll ever get rid of it. Would like to build a house there in a few years.
The drying shed is still used as just that but if I ever get out of sawing it wouldn't take much to put steel sides on it and have a nice big garage.
So that's how it went for me.
If I was you I'd be tempted to wait a few years before buying a mill if you didn't have the time for it now. It seems everyone is jumping into milling and buying new mills. I'd guess at some point there are going to be a lot of used mills for sale at a good price.
Alan
My advice. Don't spend it on cows, especially ones that need to be milked. :D
For me I would take Andries path, an older 40 super and 4wd mf390 or similar with some weight on the back and crowd action forks. You will be able to move most of the stuff you need,if you pick out you dead dying and dangerous trees first,learn how to run maintain and tune your saw and build your wood shed slash utility shed. Having got that far you will be aware of what other avenues you might like to pursue what's profitable or whether to cut and run,richly experienced,having lost not too much money. I predict a wonderful future. Get started and good luck
Quote from: Southside on December 10, 2020, 06:04:18 PM
My advice. Don't spend it on cows, especially ones that need to be milked. :D
What about goats 🐐 milk 🥛😂😂
The OP mentioned extra income, a bigger mill equals higher production which in turn produces higher extra income. In retirement, "payback" time/ROI is important (at least to me). Starting with $100K going with a manual mill doesn't make sense to me. Payback on an LT 40 Super Hydraulic sawing portable 1 or 2 days per week could be 18 months or less. Once payback is reached, portable sawing could be reduced. Or add equipment or kiln or planer/molder.
Another way to do the math is higher production per hour equals less time reaching a needed amount of lumber. That makes time to do other things like the OP's desire to do woodworking.
+1 on no cows! Hard to make money on cows unless that's all you do!
Quote from: Andries on December 10, 2020, 02:16:41 PMseems that the advice so far has been focused on how the OP could become the next mike belben or Magicman.
Naaah not really. I retired at 36 to be a homesteader and teach my kids the trades @ home. Im more about avoiding expenses than generating taxable income, which is not the advice i gave.
I think the OP wants to retire from the dayjob to be more of a businessman than me. I am very unsuccessful in dollar signs.
I tried to describe how to take his cash, test many waters at once and leap in if its warm or leap out with minimal losses. A risk mitigation plan designed to avoid scenarios like finding out after the new WM shows up, that theres already a magicman down the road and the market doesnt need you unless youll saw at a loss. Or that the local timber sucks, no one delivers and youll need to go round it up on roadtrips or starve for logs.
Flexibility that can line up work for weeks, and avoiding huge depreciation on specialty equipment that goes obsolete or gets used to zero were my two main goals in that prescription. Ive picked parts off a LOT of scrapped CNC machines that cost a very nice house when new. Ya dont want that kind of depreciation.
One thing that I failed to mention. My sawing profile fits me because I am not looking for anything other than a part time job and supplemental income. I generally saw ~75Mbf each year but last year it was well over 100Mbf, I guess due to the C-19 stuff and increased lumber prices.
I could increase my income but that would require longer and more sawing hours and possibly adding labor and lumber handling capabilities. That might increase income but it also would increase expenses. There is absolutely an ERC and Cypress market that I have not and will not tap into. I am content with my sawing profile as it is.
Quote from: jcrumley on December 10, 2020, 07:58:43 AM
Near Anniston/Oxford.
That grapple truck looks handy.
I'm just west of Pell City and have a Cook's AC36. You are welcome to come have a look-see if you'd like. ;D
If I was a woodworker - and I liked woodwork, and I wanted to do woodwork when I retired - and I had $100k to throw at it. Short answer:
nice shed
good 3 phase connection
decent secondhand commercial cabinetmakers equipment
and that should leave about $70k to spend buying good wood in the sizes you want it with no stress and no commitment beyond next week.
Not the answer you wanted huh? Thing is that I have seen a lot of guys start with this vision that says I have trees and I have woodworking skills so I need to be a sawmiller to turn A into E (because step B is tree into log, step C is log into green lumber, step D is green lumber into dry lumber, and its not until 5 processes later that we have a saleable finished wooden article) And every step along that way is priced at cost + couple % profit.
Fundamentally it's not the best path to be vertically integrated unless you're keen and/or dumb (I'm just dumb - the keen wore off a couple years back). Each task requires equipment and your best bet is to pick one and go at it.... not dabble in all of the above with insufficient gear. Because logging isn't sawmilling and sawmilling isn't woodworking, and working yourself to death in your retirement is not the objective.
(Now I'm a sawmiller... and ifn ya asked me where I'd spend $100k to set up for sawing in my retirement it'd involve mostly fish hooks and beer) :D
@jcrumley (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41623),
I assume you want to stay stationary?
If it were me... I'd only get a hydraulic mill like an LT40, and a machine to move logs and lumber.
I would not get a skid steer though. I have a skid steer and a tractor conversion forklift. The skid steer with forks is very difficult to see exactly where the end of your forks are or how level they are when loaded with a log. You also cannot get off a skid steer with the arms off the ground. On the other hand a small compact rough terrain forklift will have good visibility, and you'll be able to get off it when loaded and off the ground.
That's it! Don't mess with a truck or grapple to move logs. If you think you need that later you can always do it, but I've worked with a lot of logs and I get them delivered. My two regular sources of logs will deliver for a fee. The time I had two semi loads of walnut from a farmer, I hired a large tree service that had log trucks and truck with grapple.
When I'm doing building my new place, I won't be milling near the level I have been. So I've been asked what will I do after? Well if I'm going to spend time milling, I want to do something specialized. Producing live edge brace stock may be one. I was also thinking about RRQS. Searching for high end logs to make Quarter sawn. I don't want to make a real business out of it. Just something fun until I get tired of it. But the point is, you could find a specialty to do when you don't have custom milling jobs. Not everyone can move logs to your place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16191/Johnsforklift1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1364699879)
I paid $4400 for it, which was admittedly a good deal (had a chance at another one for $7500 and should have done it). I've put $1200 in maintenance/repairs over the last 6 years, which is not bad at all, and the older machines are simpler.
All the information and advice you have been offered, by my experience is pretty spot on. Nothing I would disagree with or cast aside, especially the advice on mill selection. I 'started' my retirement business back in February, not knowing a) when I would retire exactly, and 2) that the world was about to turn upside down, so my situation is not 'typical'. The virus thing hastened my retirement (my choice) to June 1st of this year. For the last 4 years I have been working on my shop building to 'kind of' move toward what I needed for a working environment. That was lucky. I have added 2 more upstairs lofts since the beginning of the year to increase floor space. I have a hobby mill (Manual, 28" dia x 24' long). I can and do mill wood for myself and for sale, but it would kill me to try to make my income making lumber. I make stuff in the shop, benches, tables, etc. I am getting going as fast as I can, but its going too slow. No real income yet. I just officially registered the business a few weeks ago. (Virus issues with the county offices, etc.) I could have done this better for sure, but no regrets.
Things I would do differently in hindsight:
Get the business registered right away. This allows you to grab a domain name for your website, get cards printed, developed a logo, or whatever else you might need, once you own the name. Also bank accounts, sales tax, etc.. Once you are 'legal' you can start keeping books on your investments and expenses.
Do everything you can before you retire to set up whatever infrastructure you might need. Get the tools or machines and get them in shape. Make building improvements, sheds or whatever BEFORE the retirement comes. (In the last 8 months I have spent a bunch of time on building things, fixing things or expanding things I need for the business, none of this makes money but it is taking steps to save steps and very important. I didn't get everything done I wanted, so I sneak in one or two projects here and there. All of these things are 'out of pocket' and the return is long term.)
STORAGE is a HUGE thing. Where are you putting the lumber? Is it 'climate secure' for your region? Wood takes a lot of space and needs at least to be covered somehow. For just my own needs, this is a continuing challenge. Yeah, you can mill like mad but you need to stack and sticker it someplace. Then if you flat stack, it needs to be kept very dry. Because you long a long lead time for drying, you have to have lumber in all stages of the process at the same time. What about a kiln, you'd have to build that too?
I skipped a lot of stuff here because others already gave you definitive advice in those areas. Mostly you need to think it through, write it down, and follow through on what you decided. Staying narrow focused is a good way to go until there is money coming in, if it isn't, then a plan change is in order. I am following what I think is a harder and more poorly planned road, a little of this and a little of that. I mill a little, I make some rustic furniture a little, I sell a little lumber, and I do a little consulting. I can't compete with the really good guys on any particular aspect, and I don't want to. I want to float with the seasons, the market, and what strikes me as fun. I need that. I don't want to be trying to mill logs when it is 5° outside because I only make lumber. Snow gets to be a real big issue here for outdoor work in the winter.
Best of luck to you in whatever you decide.
Own a decent size and dependable tractor with FEL.
Quote from: longtime lurker on December 10, 2020, 09:40:38 PM
If I was a woodworker - and I liked woodwork, and I wanted to do woodwork when I retired - and I had $100k to throw at it. Short answer:
nice shed
good 3 phase connection
decent secondhand commercial cabinetmakers equipment
and that should leave about $70k to spend buying good wood in the sizes you want it with no stress and no commitment beyond next week.
There's a lot to be said for that. Since buying my sawmill I've bought over 5000bf of local rough sawn hardwood lumber at auctions and from a couple private individuals that had been sitting around in sheds for many years. Oak, ash, walnut, elm, maple. All for about .25/bf.
At that price it makes me wonder why I even bother sawing. Not only that but I look at these guys that stock piled more lumber than they were able to use in their lifetime and it's like looking at myself 30 years in the future.
Right now I probably have more lumber than I'll ever use and I keep sawing more. Why? Because I like to I guess.
Alan
(ITS A CRAP SHOOT) You have had advice all over the board here. Have you ever just thought of just of heading to Vegas with your briefcase 💼 with a 100k and heading to the craps table. Load the pass line up and stack the numbers heavy and pray there's no 7 out. Now if you loose. Well we won't go there. If you win and walk away with 500k then we really can help you make some solid decisions 🤔😂
Quote from: jcrumley on December 10, 2020, 05:20:19 AMIf you had a budget of say 100K (just for fun) what mill, kiln, tractor, whatever, other equipment would you get?
If I knew what I knew now....
I'd save up and get another $100,000 for a start if you want to do all that, up front.
A L200M container kiln cost $40K running and installed including gravel, power, everything. Plus electrical power every month. Or buy one from Nyle for $50K.
A good hydraulic mill, LT40 super is $40K.
A reliable fork loader or tractor can be anywhere from $10 to $80K.
A good reliable pickup truck, 2500 diesel, $40Kto $80K
Any kind of three phase electrical, $10K to start
Barn, building, shed, $40 to $150K
Trailer for hauling logs $10K
Oh yeah, logs....they are not cheap, 20 acres of trees will disappear real quick, if you get busy.
Dont start retirement with a huge new debt. No matter how good it looks on paper or who else is doin it. Dont spend more than u can afford to lose.
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 11, 2020, 07:04:51 PM
Quote from: jcrumley on December 10, 2020, 05:20:19 AMIf you had a budget of say 100K (just for fun) what mill, kiln, tractor, whatever, other equipment would you get?
If I knew what I knew now....
I'd save up and get another $100,000 for a start if you want to do all that, up front.
A L200M container kiln cost $40K running and installed including gravel, power, everything. Plus electrical power every month. Or buy one from Nyle for $50K.
A good hydraulic mill, LT40 super is $40K.
A reliable fork loader or tractor can be anywhere from $10 to $80K.
A good reliable pickup truck, 2500 diesel, $40Kto $80K
Any kind of three phase electrical, $10K to start
Barn, building, shed, $40 to $150K
Trailer for hauling logs $10K
Oh yeah, logs....they are not cheap, 20 acres of trees will disappear real quick, if you get busy.
Yellowhammer pretty much hammered it 👍
Quote from: Magicman on December 10, 2020, 08:55:50 AM
Yup, we do not get "undo's" nor "redo's". We get one chance to screw up and usually succeed!! ::)
Ain't that the real truth?
If I knew then what I know now? Woulda stayed in school,lol
Seriously though, don't go into retirement with a debt load as some have already suggested. Build your retirement plan so you can enjoy it, not so you end up having to work physically harder than you ever did.
If you have a decent job you are set up to do that.
Hey guys, sorry I haven't replied in a while but my day job got in the way again. I had to put in back to back 13 and 14 hour days.(one of the big reasons I'm working to retire) I didn't say what I do but I'm a engineer for an automotive supplier. I'm not a behind the desk engineer but I work on the shop floor keeping equipment running. I fix what maintenance can't, won't, or don't want to. :)
This seems to have turned into an all star cast. This thread has been great. Lots of things to consider.
I'm asking you guys because you have been doing this for a while. I have people ask me all the time how to get a job like mine, or how to get into woodworking like I do. They generally don't like my answers. Telling them to get a college degree usually turns most guys off on getting a job like mine. On woodworking, I tell them to invest 50 to 60K in a building with good insulation and heating and cooling, a top of the line dust collection, and invest in 3-phase power. That's a chunk and you haven't even bought the first machine.
You know the old saying, the quickest way to make a million dollars is to start with two million. It's like anything else that makes money, the best way is to find a market or niche. That's where I am. That;s the key. I know the only way to find it is to get out there and get to work. Woodwork and sawmilling (I have taken many logs to have milled by a local guy and I always help) is something I really enjoy doing and to be able to make some money is my goal.
What ever route I go, I will not be taking out loans for retirement. Anything I do will be a big investment but It will be a paid for investment. I don't believe in starting off behind.
jcrumley, with a track record like yours , I should be coming to you for advice - not the other way around. Impressive.
Seems to me that you want to be introduced to @WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370).
He's a woodworker that cuts a fine dovetail, is a sawyer that enjoys the rrrqs and can dicuss the genetics of the pine trees on his acreage.
It sounds to me like he's arrived at where you want to be in a few years.
Like much of the advice here, if you are serious about sawing lumber, don't go manual. Get a hydraulic mill. You might can now, but it won't be too much longer where you will not be able to lift mountains with just your back. Getting the right mill is just the tip of the investment iceberg.
JCrumley-
I think youll do fine. With your background you have a pretty good idea of how much cost goes into any industrial endeavor.. Like you said just the building can be a life savings.
Many people whip up a quick dream image of something they want to do with no idea what level of time, money, effort and sacrifice goes into just getting to the STARTING line.
I do a good bit of sawing, drying and planing of lumber. I have a interest in wood working but not the time with everything else I have going on. Each step of the process doesn't just take money but takes you away from one of the other processes. My advice would be to stay with in your wheel house for starters and then work up from there. You already know what you need for your woodworking so start there and just buy your lumber for now. You can always get a mill later.
move_it
....if you like sawing for others.
After years of rolling logs and dragging boards off the mill and stacking them, I realized that the main part of sawing lumber is plain, raw material handling, and it is best performed with diesel and hydraulic oil.
I don't like stacking lumber so I like custom sawing a LOT better . Might not pay as good but a LOT less work. Steve
Quote from: sealark37 on December 12, 2020, 02:31:21 PM
[...] the main part of sawing lumber is plain, raw material handling, and it is best performed with diesel and hydraulic oil.
As they say in the south.. Thass 'bout wud it bowls down tew.
;D
One of the things I did wrong in the early years was log decking different lengths. About the time I got the picker truck I realized you sort your logs. Sawing the same lengths and approximate diameters [ same species] and then sawing them to the same thickness. On the green chain you sort the widths, back the chain 4', bring the forklift full of dry sticks over and stack . The slabs where kicked on another chain while sawing. The boards from the edger are on the edger green chain. I think Yellow Hammer says take steps to save steps. If you don't, you won't last long.
It is an evolution for a lot of us that came into the sawing game later or as a "Hobby"
I started by building a log cabin, I then blew up my chainsaw trying to flatten some logs, new and bigger saw,then a chain saw mill, wow that was hard work, upgrade to an older manual mill, people started dropping off logs, upgrade to a hydraulic mill, portable sawing, that worked pretty good for 6 years, but it was old and breaking down more as I was portable and it is hard on equipment, well then it wasn't fun anymore because I was spending my sparetime fixing the mill because I was sawing lots of urban salvage, which ends up being big old ugly yard trees, and these people wanted it proceessed to make a furniture, upgrade to a New bigger wider hydraulic mill and a vacuum kiln, and a forklift, oh yeah bobcat, trailer and truck.
I've got it figured out now!
I FAILED AT RETIREMENT!
A lot of what happens is based on what is in your part of the country. What i do does not compare to what someone on the west coast does or someone in Florida.
I am finding people want me to come in now before they build thier retirement/cottage home. They have lots of trees that are taken down in the lot clearing process, I then come in with my bobcat and Sawmill, stage the logs, saw the lumber for siding, trim and flooring. we stack sticker and store their lumber on bunks and cover. I let it air dry and then we move thier lumber to my kiln and then down the road to moulder planer shop and then back to the new home.
I started out after the log cabing thinking I would saw a little and then build stuff with all of my sawn lumber.
I gave away my planer, table saw, jointer, to my buddy who helped me set up the kiln and shop. I just do not have time. If I need some planing or something built I just call him.
I really love what I do, lots of hard work but I'm outside most of the time, I call the shots, if it's raining or snowing I stay home . I can watch my kiln on my phone!
YH calls it organic growth.
Quote from: Stephen1 on December 13, 2020, 08:30:16 PM
It is an evolution for a lot of us that came into the sawing game later or as a "Hobby"
YH calls it organic growth.
That's the real key, you can't just buy a bunch of stuff, start doing a bunch of stuff, and sell a bunch of stuff.
Ultimately, the customer has to buy the product and spend more money for a product than the money used to make it. It's a pretty simple business concept, called positive net profit, but it is very difficult to actually do. That's why the vast majority of startup or small business fail. I've had two company's locally who tried to copy us and fail within a year. They saw what we did, spent a lot of money to match our equipment, but could not put the effort we did to make the business successful. One failed because he said he didn't like dealing with retail customers. The other failed because he assured as long he had all the equipment, everything would be easy. As he told me, "This stuff is HARD." He didn't want to do hard, so the company died.
A truly successful business "grows" organically, it doesn't just "be", it must be flexible and follow its own direction based on both the interest of the owner and the customer.
It reminds me of a quote I heard one time from a professional singer (Garth Brooks maybe?). It was that you'd better really like a song if you record it, because if it goes to the top of the charts, you'll be signing it everyday, every concert, for the rest of your career. Same thing with any business, you better really like doing it.
Quote from: Stephen1 on December 13, 2020, 08:30:16 PM
It is an evolution for a lot of us that came into the sawing game later or as a "Hobby"
I started by building a log cabin, I then blew up my chainsaw trying to flatten some logs, new and bigger saw,then a chain saw mill, wow that was hard work, upgrade to an older manual mill, people started dropping off logs, upgrade to a hydraulic mill, portable sawing, that worked pretty good for 6 years, but it was old and breaking down more as I was portable and it is hard on equipment, well then it wasn't fun anymore because I was spending my sparetime fixing the mill because I was sawing lots of urban salvage, which ends up being big old ugly yard trees, and these people wanted it proceessed to make a furniture, upgrade to a New bigger wider hydraulic mill and a vacuum kiln, and a forklift, oh yeah bobcat, trailer and truck.
I've got it figured out now!
I FAILED AT RETIREMENT!
A lot of what happens is based on what is in your part of the country. What i do does not compare to what someone on the west coast does or someone in Florida.
I am finding people want me to come in now before they build thier retirement/cottage home. They have lots of trees that are taken down in the lot clearing process, I then come in with my bobcat and Sawmill, stage the logs, saw the lumber for siding, trim and flooring. we stack sticker and store their lumber on bunks and cover. I let it air dry and then we move thier lumber to my kiln and then down the road to moulder planer shop and then back to the new home.
I started out after the log cabing thinking I would saw a little and then build stuff with all of my sawn lumber.
I gave away my planer, table saw, jointer, to my buddy who helped me set up the kiln and shop. I just do not have time. If I need some planing or something built I just call him.
I really love what I do, lots of hard work but I'm outside most of the time, I call the shots, if it's raining or snowing I stay home . I can watch my kiln on my phone!
YH calls it organic growth.
Concerning your statement - "I FAILED AT RETIREMENT! "
I hope you get a chance at a REDO.
In the meantime Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
GAB
I will add that what ever your plans are be ready to change direction. Lots of times I will start with a idea and plan and half way through it ends up growing a little different direction.
Quote from: GAB on December 13, 2020, 09:54:38 PM
Quote from: Stephen1 on December 13, 2020, 08:30:16 PM
It is an evolution for a lot of us that came into the sawing game later or as a "Hobby"
I started by building a log cabin, I then blew up my chainsaw trying to flatten some logs, new and bigger saw,then a chain saw mill, wow that was hard work, upgrade to an older manual mill, people started dropping off logs, upgrade to a hydraulic mill, portable sawing, that worked pretty good for 6 years, but it was old and breaking down more as I was portable and it is hard on equipment, well then it wasn't fun anymore because I was spending my sparetime fixing the mill because I was sawing lots of urban salvage, which ends up being big old ugly yard trees, and these people wanted it proceessed to make a furniture, upgrade to a New bigger wider hydraulic mill and a vacuum kiln, and a forklift, oh yeah bobcat, trailer and truck.
I've got it figured out now!
I FAILED AT RETIREMENT!
A lot of what happens is based on what is in your part of the country. What i do does not compare to what someone on the west coast does or someone in Florida.
I am finding people want me to come in now before they build thier retirement/cottage home. They have lots of trees that are taken down in the lot clearing process, I then come in with my bobcat and Sawmill, stage the logs, saw the lumber for siding, trim and flooring. we stack sticker and store their lumber on bunks and cover. I let it air dry and then we move thier lumber to my kiln and then down the road to moulder planer shop and then back to the new home.
I started out after the log cabing thinking I would saw a little and then build stuff with all of my sawn lumber.
I gave away my planer, table saw, jointer, to my buddy who helped me set up the kiln and shop. I just do not have time. If I need some planing or something built I just call him.
I really love what I do, lots of hard work but I'm outside most of the time, I call the shots, if it's raining or snowing I stay home . I can watch my kiln on my phone!
YH calls it organic growth.
Concerning your statement - "I FAILED AT RETIREMENT! "
I hope you get a chance at a REDO.
In the meantime Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
GAB
I will get another chance and maybe another after that. As long as I love what I am doing it's not work.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
What I always wanted was someone to retail my wood. I tried and tried to do this, gave out samples, pushed stuff out on consignment, should have burned it. Never got a cent. People call all the time to try to get their trees cut into lumber so they can build that table. Most of the time I refuse. First off I would have to do all the work. They will photograph my operation with their family standing in front of it and post it for the world to see or said another way: burn up my phone, and me. Next time we will talk about contractors!
Sounds like you been there done that. I guess I won't be bringing my tree 🌲 over for a slab table and photo shoot 😂
Quote from: Walnut Beast on December 14, 2020, 02:03:06 PM
Sounds like you been there done that. I guess I won't be bringing my tree 🌲 over for a slab table and photo shoot 😂
There are 2 big problems: logs rotting and paying bills. Constant interruption from people who like the smell of wood is nice for a true hobby mill. I will do almost anything for my good customers and neighbors but not the general public. That's why I closed my woodworking shop after the first year. Once you plane and cut to length you never get rid of them and their friends. Thanks to social security and my wife's retirement I can get by now a days but I still buy logs. The only way I could be Mr. Nice guy is to stop buying logs.