Hi All - I currently use a wheeled skid steer for the landing to move, sort and stack the wood. I might buy a newer skid steer, has anyone used a rubber tracked skid steer? How are they on the landing versus a wheeled skid steer?
Have you tried out a tracked unit before
In a nutshell, it should work as well, or better. But it's going to be a lot more expensive to run.
Depends, where you are located and type of landing (base material) you are working off of mostly, have steel tracks on the wheeled skid steer, great in the woods, mixed weather, including snow just plows through like a tank, like I mentioned, really like the set up for what we do on our property, and clearing building sites as needed here and there. enjoy the added ballast they add (they are heavy), on someone's lawn, not so much.. ::). A couple rubber tracked units around the area, but useless in the snow or mud, and even when the floor is full of wet leaves, its a skating rink for those, without adding studs (a real pain) they break off constantly in anything but snow it seems, but hey, way kinder on the neighbors groomed lawn I suppose. I wouldn't change the setup a bit, a small tank for tight spaces as mostly needed and can remove the tracks (never) but could if needed.
Rubber tracks useless in mud or snow 😂. I don't think so. Get on ASV site or You tube
If your not in larger rocks or stumps a rubber track machine with generally walk all over a rubber tired machine. I have both, they both have good and bad. If I had to have 1 machine to use on the landing like your looking to do it would probably be a track machine. Better in the mud, pick more.
If someone else owns the machine, CTL.
If its mine to pay for, wheeled with OTTs. New tires is the easiest undercarriage maintenance program there is.
All great advice - I also use it around the farm for moving bales, moving some snow. Another thing I could use it for is my tree removal/trimming jobs and I know that the CTL is better on lawns. I would use it on the landing mostly and the landing stays pretty clean.
I prefer a rubber tire machine but the tracks have advantages. I bought a set of the over the tire chain / pad style tracks 15? Yrs ago and they weren't that great, stretch, slide off, only way I would buy them again is like the McLaren ones. You would be surprised what a set of good tire chains on the front will do.
Ive got 2100🤷♂️ hours on that track machine, 3rd set of tracks, couple rollers and 1 idler. If that machine smells a stump its going to throw a track, last time my father got one good with a worn track and I limped it out on a couple cords left. All depends again what your doing. The track machines ride hard, unless its real bad ground i will take that LS170 over that track machine any day.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59695/BD139243-549C-48D4-9E3A-031215A6CFCB.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1608696010)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59695/9E01DB00-AFEF-42D8-A55D-8DACA2DA5CC2.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1608695995)
These machines ride pretty good with full suspension. And for getting around in mud and snow fantastic. This was a Terex 100 and when I had this one there was a snow storm one year and it had snowed very deep with drifts that were 8ft + on the roads and snow plows couldn't get through on the road for a few days with the 20" wide tracks and 15" ground clearance I could go over those big drifts and sink down minimally. I took several buckets of corn 🌽 from the farm house down the road and over those monster drifts and through the fields. I remember when I was dumping the corn turkeys 🦃 came in right away and started eating. They really needed the corn. You talk about a extra smooth ride in high range 12.5 mph going over the drifts 😂
The ASV ride and traction is incomparable. Just have your wallet ready when it's time for undercarriage repairs. Rigid undercarriage machines ride HORRIBLE, and more so when the tracks get worn.
I am running an old 7753, I chain up all four tires and it gets around great. But, it can't really lift enough. I ran a new JCB on a lot clearing job that was rubber tracked (CTL). It had an 80hp diesel and for power it was a beast. We skidded all the trees up out of a hillside onto a field with ease. BUT - I was just cleaning up the landing on flat grassy field and the track came off. The thing had like 50 hours on it. And now I'm thinking if that's how easy tracks come off in just flat dirt could it work for what I do. I totally realize this can't be the case because so many people run them, but you know how it is when that's your first experience with something.
If I bought a bobcat I was thinking an S590/595. Any other recommendations for other brands? Cat, JD, Gehl, ASV, Kubota?
Also - I use pallet forks. It's fine for the big stuff but is there something better for all those bolts and pulp sticks?
Skid steers are handy machines but for handling logs I would choose a knuckle boom or wheel loader. The gain in productivity will outweigh their cost.
MTL's (multi terrain loader's) like our 2007 CAT 257B2 (ASV undercarriage) works good in snow. You just have to be mindful of the snow that can pack in and build up around the drive sprocket. If it packs in and you are not paying attention, the track nubs won't connect with the sprocket correctly and it can result in the track slipping off. Just like any machine you drive in snow, you have to be aware of traveling conditions.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20180410-after-the-snow4-skidsteer.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1608720967)
If the snow is heavy and sticky, likely the tracks will spin trying to push it uphill. No problem. Just drive over it, get to the top, spin around, drop the blade or bucket, and push downwards.
It's great around the yard, spins on a dime with minimal ground tear up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20180217-spruce-logs-3-skidsteer.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1608721284)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20180612-sawmill-hemlock-4-skidsteer.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1608721350)
And yes, the undercarriage can be expensive to replace.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20201029-skidsteer-rebuild-undercarriage-left_side.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1608721720)
This past month I had to replace both frames, rear idler hubs, front idler hubs and wheels, along with the tracks. Came to just under CAD$10K. Which is about USD$7500.
Sounds like a lot but I look at it this way. I bought this used in 2015 when it had 4200hrs on it. It now has 4700 hours on it. 500 hrs seat time I have. It sips fuels so I am not concerned about that. Can move around 8 hrs in the yard with logs and firewood and only burn CAD$15 in fuel. I've had to replace one joystick and this recent track replacement. All total about CAD$12K.
500 hrs and CAD$12K is about $24 per hour. Given the fact that most of the abuse this machine received was prior to me owning it, I think the hourly rate to operate this machine is minimal. And, the machine is a workhorse.
What causes the track frame to wear out?
I have to say that undercarriage replacement is why i will force myself to stay with tires. $100 each for imports, $600 per corner for brand flatproofs on new wheels.
It's like my friend with a big excavation company told me.
He only has a dozer because it's needed once and awhile.
They cost money every foot they move.
It will be rubber for me.
Unless I win the lottery.
I kinda have wanted to comment on that. Guy ive known all his life said to me the other day they dug out the TD8 dresser 6 way machine and used it for first time in a decade. That his new big track bobcat will almost push as hard as the dozer. So the new track CTLs are doing now what a small dozer or crawler loader did, but twice as fast.
So theyre getting thrown at a lot of jobs that used to be reserved for 3x the machine, just taking 1/3 the bite and getting 3x the hours put on. Meanwhile this has made the old iron clad, stupid heavy, rough riding and "slow" equipment cheaper because everyone wants nice new, warm and dry inside etc. This is reflected pretty well in the hour meters on plant owned skid steers on the auction sites. 2015s that look good with 7000 hours. Thats a LOT of use. Employees are fighting to use the skid steer instead of something else.
A dozer undercarriage isnt much more than an ASV/cat/terex bottom but itll survive in worse environments, so will a 14ply tire. What we dont see is dollar per ton pushed or ton per gallon or ton per track.
A skid steer is probably the best swiss army knife where you can only have one machine and every day is a different job. But if all youre doing is one job same every day, they may not be the most suitable. If youre just loading log trucks for example, the best machine is the one that safely loads the most trucks per shift and the most trucks per gallon with the least consumption of the machine's wear items. Its a recipe everyone has to cook up on their own. If i was clearing land and pushing trees over and loading dump trucks with debris, that big slow old crawler loader is still gonna be a wiser choice than that 299 rubber track forestry package machine i really really want to have.
Mike, one problem I see is some of these new CTL's will push like a small dozer, but when something that weighs 10k has the same HP as a dozer that weighs 25k, which is going to last longer? Most CTL's are overpowered if they have the wrong operator in them, IMO.
True, and instead of putting all that power through a shaft in a cast iron gearbox under 3 layers of steel, theyre putting it in a hose or .090" wall pipe not so far from your body.
I absolutely love the skid steer like i absolutely love the ton truck. But there is a relationship there. In the last decade, normal joe has gotten a taste of being a "dirt contractor" thanks to the skid steer just like the hotshot driver got a taste at the transportation business thanks to the turbodiesel and 40ft gooseneck. Both markets are oversaturated and biting into the big dog market. both of them feed on undercutting to get the scraps left between the big boys that can be done with the little machine. When times are good there is plenty of gravy for everyone to eat but as always markets contract, gravy tightens up and overflow jobs dry up. Cant haul 80k oh well. Dont have a asphalt roller and sheepfoot compactor oh well. The bobcat will be worn out before the 950F, the texas pride will be worn out before the reitenouer, the dodge dually plow and sander truck will be ready to fold before the T800 or S2500 tandem wing plow. That wizzbang 3/4 ton 80mph left lane dodge isnt gonna survive what that old junk R model or L9000 did. Youve to match the work to the tool for long service life.
I love all things industry and love to see people making honest money doing real work, especially with iron. This ramble is just some food for thought. Off to spend $60 on a instock generic cylinder repack for my 35 year old $4000 detroit powered junky forktruck that will pick up an overloaded dually and put it on the roof for about 15 cents of red #2. Clearly the right tool for that particular job whenever it comes up :D
Case makes a new steel tracked 1/2 skid steer with a special frame mount dozer blade.
I can't remember for certain it might weigh in around 12,000 lbs
It also will take a ripper bar on the rear.
Quote from: barbender on December 22, 2020, 11:57:29 PM
The ASV ride and traction is incomparable. Just have your wallet ready when it's time for undercarriage repairs. Rigid undercarriage machines ride HORRIBLE, and more so when the tracks get worn.
Barbender is exactly right on everything. When something works extremely good it's going to cost a little more to fix stuff. That's why you see guys replacing only the parts that they absolutely have to 😂
I don't know if you guys have heard or seen.
I have from a Kioti dealer I follow on FB
Kioti has a skid steer coming out wheeled and tracked.
It was a bigger machine.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on December 23, 2020, 01:57:19 PM
Case makes a new steel tracked 1/2 skid steer with a special frame mount dozer blade.
I can't remember for certain it might weigh in around 12,000 lbs
It also will take a ripper bar on the rear.
Yeah thats project minotaur (sp?) iirc. I think its still a concept.
No Mike
They are now in production and for sale at dealers
Quote from: mike_belben on December 23, 2020, 08:33:10 AM
What causes the track frame to wear out?
I have to say that undercarriage replacement is why i will force myself to stay with tires. $100 each for imports, $600 per corner for brand flatproofs on new wheels.
Holes for the axles were worn, needed to be drilled and sleeved. Were already sleeved at some point in the past. Cost to do that now is near the cost of brand new, so I went with brand new. Frames were $923 per side. Front hub and wheel group were $591 per, need 4. Rear axle hubs are $403 per, need 4 of those too. re-used the rear steel wheels. Caps to cover the axle nut are almost $35 each, needed 6. Good thing, there's 24 on the machine.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on December 23, 2020, 04:42:50 PM
No Mike
They are now in production and for sale at dealers
Sweet. Next time i get a covid check im gonna run down there and get that 0% financing! 8)
my dealer told me that unless I needed and had to have a machine on tracks it was alot cheaper to go with wheels , tracks and the drive motors are pretty costly, I tested 2 tracks machines , the smaller machine did a pretty good job, was pretty smooth on my back but it turned up the ground . My 650S was a pretty good machine and was quite strong but I was quite worried I was going to break it cause of all the 30 plus ft timber logs I was piling with it , Back tires were off the ground steady so I moved to the S740, same thing a very good machine to drive but it only came with 12.5 by 16 tires so in real soft sand it sinks because of the weight so I run tires chains on it and its good
Ive seen several new holland LS models with 36 and 37 inch humvee tires on stock rims with no spacers that i can see. Theyre about $50 used most of the time and very plentiful. Fairly tough carcass.
Farmshow had a guy put 9-16 ags i think on his machine with rims welded to rims. Said it was night and day and roaded hay down to his pasture way faster.
Small machines- big logs. Small sawmill- big logs. It's all the same, you can do it but in the long run and for production you need the iron, big iron small logs, that is what works.
one thing I had to think about is traveling on the road , If my next job is 2 or 5 miles down the road I just drive the skid steer to it , its almost as fast as the skidder on the road so its very short time to get there.
When I was lookin for a loader to use at the woods I about bought a wheel bobcat. The owner of a mill I sell to regularly said no way. Go with tracks. I did and don't regret it one bit. I traded off a T770 a year ago with 2300 hours on it and the tracks or any other part of the undercarriage had never been touched. It got tracks at the dealer I traded it to though. I have a wheel bobcat at home which I love but if your wantin one for the job I'd get a track machine. So versatile. I even fix the skid paths with it all the time. Looks like a dozer did it. I have a log grapple for it too that I can skid with if I want. More stable and way better for grading than tires
No question that it would take a fine operator to make a wheel machine match the grade carrying quality of a track bottom.
A track machine definitely carries a grade better, but it's not as pronounced as you might think. They're pretty short.
Quote from: OH logger on December 25, 2020, 09:49:57 AM
When I was lookin for a loader to use at the woods I about bought a wheel bobcat. The owner of a mill I sell to regularly said no way. Go with tracks. I did and don't regret it one bit. I traded off a T770 a year ago with 2300 hours on it and the tracks or any other part of the undercarriage had never been touched. It got tracks at the dealer I traded it to though. I have a wheel bobcat at home which I love but if your wantin one for the job I'd get a track machine. So versatile. I even fix the skid paths with it all the time. Looks like a dozer did it. I have a log grapple for it too that I can skid with if I want. More stable and way better for grading than tires
@OHlogger I have a line on a CTL, Bobcat T650. I was curious how you have done on the frozen ground and in the snow handling wood? Are icy hills carrying loads an issue? I am close to pulling the trigger, but have to admit somewhat nervous about it. Wheels and chains are solid in the winter. I can only have one machine though...
In a FB group I'm in someone but chain strips on the tracks of a bobcat t650 had pictures with a load in the grapple going up a steep icy hill.
It's pancake flat here so I can't help there. As far as the tracks yea they're slippery on frozen snowy ground but I think wheels are too. We don't use tire chains much. Skid or track loaders are much more responsive than wjheel loadrrs so I weld roller chain on the forks so when they are covered in snow or ice the logs don't slide sideways off the forks
Ive put a SS roller chain bracelets on the center of the front tires on the deere 318 (garden tractor) at smith and wesson for plowing snow on the loading docks where going off a few inches was a bad day. They looked like #40 mohawks. Worked good.
Spent 2 hours today with a torpedo heater and weed burned thawing out a set of tracks for a guy. Last he used the machine it was 30° and slushy today it was -5° and the machine wasn't moving. Nearly impossible to shovel all the slush out of a set of CTL tracks.
Never had that issue with my wheel machine. Ha
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on January 01, 2021, 07:42:55 PM
Spent 2 hours today with a torpedo heater and weed burned thawing out a set of tracks for a guy. Last he used the machine it was 30° and slushy today it was -5° and the machine wasn't moving. Nearly impossible to shovel all the slush out of a set of CTL tracks.
Never had that issue with my wheel machine. Ha
That's where ASV open track design shines
I tested a new T650 bobcat with winter tracks on it . I parked it in about 20 minutes , my back sure didnot like that ride but I also had a job at a airport so Bobcat sent me a T590 , I had to cut around 50 walnut for them to build a new builder so they could fix jets. I used that machine to do everything as trees were all close . It worked very well and in about 10 inches of snow
https://ne-np.facebook.com/asvholdings/videos/882090965898026/ (https://ne-np.facebook.com/asvholdings/videos/882090965898026/)
Here is a little ASV 50 VS a Bob t590
Quote from: Walnut Beast on January 01, 2021, 08:00:59 PM
https://ne-np.facebook.com/asvholdings/videos/882090965898026/ (https://ne-np.facebook.com/asvholdings/videos/882090965898026/)
Here is a little ASV 50 VS a Bob t590
The little guy is only outweighed by 2,634 pounds
ASV is great until you get some hours on them then that undercarriage gets pricey. Buddy does ROW clearing with 3 or 4 ASV's and he loves them to death but trades them in before the undercarriage gets wore and starts costing a fortune to keep reliable.
If I was making my living in that machine 8+ hours a day (ROW clearing work) I would would look at them no doubt. But for a guy who uses the machine but not as is sole income producer (farmer, logger, etc) the upkeep is to costly.
The RT50 machines are pretty reliable I think, they're not as hard on their undercarriage as the bigger machines. And they get froze up with mud, too😊
I don't know why you couldn't stud some of these tracks on units that are always off of a pavement surface for the concerns of icy conditions. You don't hear much about tire studding anymore. Probably due to laws banning them on pavement in many states
EHP. Have to ask what winter tracks are? Never heard of em
Probably referring to the multi bar track. Like the ASV. When I looked at the CAT 299D3 Forestry I was told by several different people the multi bar track type got around way better than the block type overall
Quote from: Walnut Beast on January 02, 2021, 06:18:09 PM
Probably referring to the multi bar track. Like the ASV. When I looked at the CAT 299D3 Forestry I was told by several different people the multi bar track type got around way better than the block type overall
If they're triple bar grousers on ice they don't do much, up in BC they have bolt on ice picks on a lot of equipment. Another option is to add grouser extensions to the pads.
I know the block tread tracks never impressed me very much even on dirt🤷🏽♂️
Its the only skidsteer I have seen with them. They are a rubber track but raises tread like a snow tire about 2 to 3 inches off the belt part of the track . I'm sure in the winter they work well but I was testing in August and it ran pretty rough . Felt just like driving a dozer . I guess I could just of bought a set of normal tracks for summer. Another thing it was slow compared to my wheel machine . I have ran lots of different machines like wheel loaders . Cherry pickers. Telehandlers and at piling logs I like the skidsteer the best . Sure cherry picker is fast but mill draws my logs so no need for a log truck and to have a cherry picker just to sit on the landing makes no sense where I log. I move way to many times and to float the machine steady is not a good idea. Your not going to drive it or pull it here. Cops will have you in a second
I run chains on my tires . I got 4 but most times run front as back wheels are off the ground lots lol. I got good chains to. Now I see they make better chains with more bite but have not seen a set in.person.just online
I just borrowed a T590 and I'm going to give it a go on the landing this weekend and see how it does
Been running the T590 for a little while now. The summer dirt tracks are 50% and ok on snow, horrible on ice. On the landing it's a little slower because you have to ease into the movement so that it doesn't start to spin. Then after a bit of landing work it packs everything down and turns it into hard pack and ice making it even slower to stack the wood. So I'll be looking for a winter track or solution to get around that part.
All other conditions - I expect this to be a monster compared to wheeled so might be the trade off. I guess it will be a multi year experiment to see if it can do the job. If not, I'll go back to wheeled in a year or two.
I have a tree job coming up by a lake house. I'm going to see if it can track over the snow and allow me to get at the wood to move it easier. I don't think I could get there with a wheeled unit because it would sink and get stuck.
We'll see...I'll keep you all posted...
Anyone knows of track stud websites I'd be curious to at least check them out...
Quote from: catfishhunter on February 12, 2021, 07:05:13 AM
Anyone knows of track stud websites I'd be curious to at least check them out...
duroforce makes full steel tracks for the 590. they're high but used only in winter i bet they'd last a while.
I'd think that the full steel tracks would be even more worthless on a hard packed icy landing. With the little bit of dozer I run, I've been surprised how worthless our Deere 700 dozers are on hard frozen ground like that. One time I had to push a quick truck turn around, had a large aspen right in the middle. It was late February or early March, the snow had thawed/froze several times and it had drove the frost into even undisturbed ground. I was having a heck of a time getting that tree pushed over, the machine wanted to just sit there and spin the second the blade touched the ground. I was really surprised how much trouble it had.
Quote from: barbender on February 12, 2021, 09:17:26 AM
I'd think that the full steel tracks would be even more worthless on a hard packed icy landing.
the duroforce is almost like a continuous belt of ice cleat. and if they aren't awesome you could easily weld a few short cleat bars on to really make it bite. the extra weight over rubber is gonna add some ground pressure, and infrequent spikes would have tons of penetration.
https://rubbertracksamerica.com/products/2-steel-tracks-fits-bobcat-t590-16-49-link-free-shipping
Quote from: barbender on February 12, 2021, 09:17:26 AM
I'd think that the full steel tracks would be even more worthless on a hard packed icy landing. With the little bit of dozer I run, I've been surprised how worthless our Deere 700 dozers are on hard frozen ground like that. One time I had to push a quick truck turn around, had a large aspen right in the middle. It was late February or early March, the snow had thawed/froze several times and it had drove the frost into even undisturbed ground. I was having a heck of a time getting that tree pushed over, the machine wanted to just sit there and spin the second the blade touched the ground. I was really surprised how much trouble it had.
A friend had a few stories of the D6 sliding around like a pair of ice skates
Anyone ever try these studs? They look like a better stud than the sheet metal screws type that I've seen in the past...
Skid Steer Track Studs | Grip Studs® Screw-In Tire Studs | Traction in Ice, Snow and Dirt (https://www.gripstuds.com/Skid_Steer_Track.php)
Clever.
Skidsteer solutions .com. Carries those and a few other types
Pro-Lynx makes a bolt on traction bar that might do the trick.
https://www.pro-lynx.ca/ (https://www.pro-lynx.ca/)