I have an older (@30 years old) 25 ton MTD splitter. The motor is getting tired. I am thinking about replacing it with a new larger motor. The splitter now has an 8 HP motor and a 15 gpm pump (based on replacement pump from MTD) I am thinking about putting a 14 HP B&S motor on it with a 22 gpm 2 stage pump and maybe a new valve. I believe it has a 4" cylinder (based on outer diameter of 4.85") I know this should speed things up a bit but does it make sense and what might the issues be? I know the existing tank might be a bit small but I usually only run it for a couple of hours at a time.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59688/IMG_20210118_153853449s~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1611166869)
The deciding factor will be the displacement of the low flow gearset in the new pump. The 22gpm is no big deal at 900 psi but when you get to 3000psi and are on the low flow high pressure side we need to know 14hp is enough. Because if it aint you either have to back the pressure off or have the engine stall.
I upgraded a 5hp to 8hp and cranked down the presure relief valve on a Yardman (MTD) the customer wanted a 4 way splitter. Bent the ram which became the weak link.
I have replaced several of those 8HP 16 GPM two stage motor pump combo's with Harbor Freight 13 HP motors and 22GPM two stage splitter pumps and it worked quiet well. Never up sized the hyd tank but most folks aren't splitting on the hottest days of the summer for eight hours a day. The 22 GPM pumps really speeds up the cycle time. Look a Surplus Center Lincoln Ne for the pump, mounting bracket and love joy coupling.
I ran a 15 HP Honda knockoff on a 22 GPM pump for some time and found it to be a good match. Heat was a problem on hot days. Should work well for you if you work now and again. Try to upsize the hose and fittings. This will help to reduce restrictions that will in turn reduce heat. Increasing tank size is a good thing but not necessarily required.
jmur1
When the Briggs 8hp on my home built splitter died after 25 years, I replaced it with a Honda 5 hp about 15 yrs ago no appreciable difference in either power or speed, less gas too.
Several commercial grade manufacturers use this combination with great success, but the plumbing is critical. Either a dump valve or check valve is used, and all the hoses are upgraded to a bigger size than what you'd find on your splitter.
My Wolfe Ridge has a GX390 Honda with 22 gpm 2 stage pump, 5" cylinder, 4" ram, and the cycle time is just over 8 seconds. It has a true rating of 35 tons, and there's nothing it won't split. I can run up to a 12 way wedge on it.
What is the cost of the B&S 15HP/ A new 27 ton splitter is not much more . this summer, June or July, I purchased a new 27t at Costco for $788 and have seen similar sale prices posted at other stores since around here.
I will probably end up spending more for a motor and pump than you paid for the new splitter. But the new ones I looked at are not nearly as heavy built as my old one and won't be nearly as fast as what I will end up with. When I looked around I didn't see any in that power range for under $1000 / 1200. And the ones with 22 GPM pumps were well over $2000. I will check again, I would prefer to buy a new one lf I could find one close to what I want for close to the same price.
@Iwawoodwork (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29762) I will just about guarantee for that kind of money yours was built overseas with a knockoff engine, pump and non standard hydraulic fittings. If you are happy with it that is great but good luck finding repair parts, it will break.
I think a lot of that heat deal is related to flow, cylinder size which relates to pressure .But don't forget how much oil the machines carries plus what type of oil .In my case it's some where between 9 and 10 gallons of Dexron 2 auto tranny fluid with a 5 inch cylinder 16 GPM pump pushed by an 11 HP Briggs IC industrial only running about 2/3 throttle .It doesn't run hot and seldom shifts to high pressure lower volume .
My buddy has a TSC with an 8 HP Briggs running at governed speed with a 4" cylinder and 16 GPM and you could fry an egg on that cylinder .It's little faster but at the end of the day the amount of split wood would not be much different .I think his holds 8 gallons ,again Dexron 2 .I know as I replaced the engine on that thing .
Most people think they need a faster cycle time like it's a hot lap at the Indy 500 going for the pole position .I don't because at 2/3 throttle it will out run me and I don't have listen to that big single cylinder engine trying to blow my ear drums out .Maybe I'd have different view point if I were 25 years old but I'll be 73 in a few weeks plus I'm retired .Hurry up is no longer in my vocabulary . ;D
Quote from: woodworker9 on January 21, 2021, 02:08:28 PMSeveral commercial grade manufacturers use this combination with great success, but the plumbing is critical. Either a dump valve or check valve is used, and all the hoses are upgraded to a bigger size than what you'd find on your splitter.
Can you explain the use of these valves and how I would plumb them. I am not sure I can do much with the hoses as the new pump and valve call for the same size as what is on the machine now and the cylinder is fixed as to the size it uses (1/2"). I assume that would cause me to need a dump valve even more but I don't know about these things. Always interested in learning new things.
Quote from: woodman52 on January 23, 2021, 06:06:21 PM
Can you explain the use of these valves and how I would plumb them. I am not sure I can do much with the hoses as the new pump and valve call for the same size as what is on the machine now and the cylinder is fixed as to the size it uses (1/2"). I assume that would cause me to need a dump valve even more but I don't know about these things. Always interested in learning new things.
I don't think you will need to up size any hoses or valve with a 22 GPM pump. You could install a dump valve on the retract side of the cylinder but I don't think you will need one. I know were a home built is running with a 28 GPM pump on a four inch cylinder with half inch hoses on the cylinder and no dump valve and this guy only splits in the summer and he has had no issues with that set up in close to twenty years. He only got a ten gallon oil tank on it also.
i have almost the same splitter mine is 32 ton had the cylinder rebulit couple years ago when one of the fittings cracked and was leaking works like new at your age why do you want faster this way when you return the ram you got time for a swallow of beer
I can agree with the idea that most of the recommendations here are for small improvements that will only change your speed a just noticeable amount. Most options are only for small cycle time improvements that a high production outfit would prefer.
What pump were you looking at? The industry generally likes to keep hydraulic fluid (under pressure) moving at 20-25 feet/sec. The 22 GPM pump would fire the fluid through a 1/2" ID line at 36 feet/sec. It would send it through a 5/8" ID line at about 23 feet/sec. If you are in this range your pressure lose per foot of 1/2" tube is shooting up over 10psi/foot which will result in more heat and slower speeds.
But for short lines its not a huge impact. Try out the new pump as is - it may be perfect for you. Just keep one eye on the heat because once it starts to climb it will enter damaging territory quickly. Put your hand on the cylinder after a run. If its too hot to hold on there then let it cool or it could cause pump or seal damage.
jmur1
Quote from: woodman52 on January 23, 2021, 06:06:21 PM
Quote from: woodworker9 on January 21, 2021, 02:08:28 PMSeveral commercial grade manufacturers use this combination with great success, but the plumbing is critical. Either a dump valve or check valve is used, and all the hoses are upgraded to a bigger size than what you'd find on your splitter.
Can you explain the use of these valves and how I would plumb them. I am not sure I can do much with the hoses as the new pump and valve call for the same size as what is on the machine now and the cylinder is fixed as to the size it uses (1/2"). I assume that would cause me to need a dump valve even more but I don't know about these things. Always interested in learning new things.
to make use of a dump valve (pilot operated check valve) you have it in the cylinder base end line. A 3rd hose from the rod end 'triggers' the check valve to open during retraction. You'd have it plumbed straight back to the tank. Ideally you could use 3/4 hoses. Think taking your cylinder to a machine shop and having a larger port put in. But, you'll see no real advantage with a stock cylinder. Where you'd see a speed/heat difference is if you upsized them rod. Find an online calculator and play with the numbers. Changing the rod size makes it so it takes way less fluid to retract the rod (it's bigger so less room in cylinder for oil) but the base end has lots so it needs to get out as fast as it can, which could be up to 30-60gpm (in theory). The dump valve will direct it all back to the tank, through a bigger hose (less heat, a bit more speed)
however a normal set up is likely running at near the published number of say 15gpm. The return flow could be 25, which most valves are rated for and 1/2" hose will take. So to add the dump valve to a stock system would help with heat by reducing flow through the whole system (possible extra wear on a valve?,)
I went through this with my processor. Had the cylinder rod upsized, 3/4 port put in, dump valve. I sped up the cycle time by a few seconds (return is faster) which in my case allows me to cut and drop the next block into the splitter a few seconds faster per cut. Makes about 5-7 minutes difference on a cord. Worth the $7-800 it cost me? Likely not but was a learning experience and fun.
Quote from: jmur1 on January 25, 2021, 10:53:51 AMWhat pump were you looking at? The industry generally likes to keep hydraulic fluid (under pressure) moving at 20-25 feet/sec. The 22 GPM pump would fire the fluid through a 1/2" ID line at 36 feet/sec. It would send it through a 5/8" ID line at about 23 feet/sec. If you are in this range your pressure lose per foot of 1/2" tube is shooting up over 10psi/foot which will result in more heat and slower speeds.
I was planning on a Haldex pump. The line from the pump to the valve is 3/4" but from the valve to the cylinder is 1/2 or a little less. About 2' of steel line. I figure if need be I could always run the motor a little slower. Easier on the whole system.
I saw this link on another site last night - a handy chart:
Hydraulic Oil Pumps - Required Horsepower (https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amp/hydraulic-pumps-horsepower-d_1464.html?fbclid=IwAR2i9AdBfJAtcy8TqI31F5rlzmSlezSAXK9x09hS9OOTrcN2W-yPLF3FWN4)
jmur1
@jmur1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=34322) thanks for the chart. it illustrates the exponential nature as the flow increases. It does not reflect a 2 stage setup directly, but most of the 2 stage pumps convert to a 3:1 ratio of high flow low pressure and low flow high pressure. so the flow of a 28 gpm 2 stage pump goes to 7 gpm at the high pressure cut off, and the HP at that pressure is right on that chart. a single stage HP requirement would be high. My 28 gpm pump (2 stage), called for a 16 HP engine, and I went with an 18 HP to be sure. If you look on the splitez website, it lists the HP required for each pump.
a 22 or 28 gpm pump may benefit from a dump valve. the smaller pumps, prob. not so much. and with a larger rod size as well.
@doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041) It surprizes me that the splitez site does not show the high and low GPM. I guess they choose to show the HP instead. You got it - you have to look at both to figure out if your pump wil stall your engine.
I noticed when I reworked my cylinder to a larger ram a big change with the dump valve. I think I will rework my outlet ports on the next one to allow for even more.
jmur1
yes, if I screw my rod up, I will look into that. My plumbing is so neat and tidy, that I hate to redo it. but if I had a 4 inch ram in a 5 inch cylinder, then the dump valve would be very needed with a 28 gpm pump. I would also consider the 2 lever auto valve, now that my son is 19. course he now thinks he knows everything, so maybe not!... :D :D :D. the high and low rates is from memory, but you are right, they do not come right out and say. it is like 2 separate pumps, and the low pressure is shut of at the set pressure.
You got to watch what charts you are looking at, many of the industrial ones are for electric motor.
https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/technologies/hydraulic-pumps-motors/article/21122383/hydraulic-power-units (https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/technologies/hydraulic-pumps-motors/article/21122383/hydraulic-power-units)
Quote from: jmur1 on January 26, 2021, 03:05:06 PM
I think I will rework my outlet ports on the next one to allow for even more.
Dont mod your existing ports, just add more of them, big as you can fit. Two valves will speed things along.
the back cap on my cylinder, has two ports, so if I added a dump valve, I would just use the other port. radius adds resistance to flow, as it get smaller. there is also a length component, so a short segment of smaller radius (port) is better than a length of it (hose, tubing).
The few splitters that I have put dump valves on the ones with the biggest improvement for speed and heat of the hyd oil were on ones that had a over sized rods on the cylinder. If your running standard size rod on your cylinder I didn't see any improvement on my four inch cylinder with a two inch rod running a 28 GPM two stage pump. Added a extra port and a dump valve and it didn't speed any thing up or cool the oil down. Some day when the cylinder starts leaking I will have it rebuild with a over sized rod to get some more speed.
Right and it makes perfect sense too because if you put 20gpm into a 4 inch blind end it moves at X speed. When you switch directions and put 20gpm into the retract side with a 3" rod.. Its now a 1inch bore of fluid getting 20gpm pushed in so it flies. But on the other side of that 1inch bore is a 4" bore being shoved out a tiny hole like a syringe.. Big volume of fluid trying to be expelled at a high rate of speed.
So with a 2 way control valve on a oversize rod, youre trying to shoot fluid out the blind end port way way faster than it took it in and the fluid is cavitating like crazy. Futhermore.. Not all the fluid is sent to tank or cooler. What hot stuff remains in the line from valve to cylinder just runs right back in on the next split, never to be filtered or exchanged.
A dump valve will replenish this oil by sending it all outward to tank, filter and cooler over time. Remember a dump valve is one way flow. Out, out, out, out. So it will really purge that hot foamy oil back to tank to shed temp. Good feature that all pro machines should utilize.
I saw the pic in the first post and thought, "Hey, that's my splitter!" Not quite, as I have that splitter's little brother; which is a 5HP Briggs/20 ton. But otherwise looks identical. Have had it for a good 20 years now and except for the worst crotches, it's split anything I've needed it to. The cycle time is a pretty decent 12 sec. And since I usually keep it from retracting all the way, it's less than that when splitting 16" wood. So, the splitter's cycle time is more than a match for my cycle time.
Where I'm going with this is how much faster than that is necessary for personal use? At what cost? And how long can you keep up with it? And if you did this project, how many seconds would you actually gain in the end? Not sure it's worth the effort given the cost and considerations about heat build up that guys have pointed out.
I have a 32 inch throw to my 5 inch cylinder. I use the rod stops to stop it from retracting back. I shoot for 16 inch logs to split for the stove. I bought a set for my 2 inch rod, that are spring loaded and go on and off without tools. Jacks small engine I think. a set of 4, with a 4,3,2,and 1 inch for a total of 10 inch reduction of retraction. so leaves a 22 inch opening, for my 15 to 18 inch logs. next upgrades for me, is a larger rod, an auto valve with a dump valve. I usually run at half throttle so speeding things up really is not on my radar. I may slow down before I speed up my splitter. 8) 8) 8) :D
My 42 yr home built splitter has a Central Tractor (now TSC) 4" hyd cylinder, dont know the make of the pump, I think it's single stage, Cross valve and as I posted above now a 5.5 honda.
Other than the engine the only repair was a new handle for the valve.
we split 22 to 23"wood seldom over 18 diameter
Speed is good enough for us as My son runs the splitter and I stack. Gives me enough time usually as we set up close to the stacking area.
Dont know the cycle time but will time it next spring when we start splitting.
We only do about 15 to 18 standard cords per year for our own use which seems like a lot, but our heating equipment isnt very efficient.
god bless ya for putting up that much wood at that many years of age pete. eat your heart out jack lalanne 8)
Wood will keep you young .... and sore! Awesome work Pete!
As I've said I'm like most and really see not much use spending the money to speed things up .They brag about those fly wheel type splitters like Lickety Split .However they set those speed records with two big 25 year old farm boys so of course they can feed that thing non spot for at least a short time .Now comes one guy 55 to 70 plus years old with no helpers and they want a faster cycle time ? Makes sense to me . ???
On the other hand I like fast chainsaws if that accounts for anything ,kind of fun to soup up 8)
The faster the saw the sooner you can put the dang thing down ;)