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General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: Snowdemon on February 04, 2021, 12:23:42 AM

Title: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 04, 2021, 12:23:42 AM
So question on possible transmission issue..
When in first gear forward when you throttle forward and it starts moving then let off throttle it stops like there is a brake on. When in reverse first gear will move a few feet then lock up. Put back in neutral you can see machine "relax" go into second gear forward and reverse will work like normal. Third  forward will work reverse will lock up.
My question is there another spot I should be looking besides transmission? The mid mount brake is disconnected and I removed driveline to rear to try and isolate that. The hydraulic brake on rear transmission has just been rebuilt also so that is ruled out.
So any ideas would be great.
Also it is a Detroit engine that runs good and is adjusted correctly.

Thanks
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 04, 2021, 12:08:19 PM
I assume this is a 3speed powershift fwd/rev unit.  It sounds like you have a crossleakage issue in the control valve section.  If its what i am picturing youll have 2 spools.  One selects direction and one selects ratio.  They direct pressurized oil from the pump to the piston that does whatever is necessary to get the output condition you are calling for.  



If i am right this can be due to internal problems like worn out control valve, blown hoses or lines, bad orings and seals, cracked valve bodies or maybe even low pressure from a stuck regulator.  Valve bodies do use a lot of springs to work or block certain functions under certain conditions and the springs are speced for a defined pressure range.  Falling outside that range makes problems.  


With any luck the issue is external.  Maybe slop in the linkages that move your control spools so that they are stroking part way and leaving things partially shifted?  Look at your pins, links and pivots/rockers.  You can unhook all that and move spools manually to see if normal operation can be achieved, to verify.  


If its not that, id pull the pans down and inspect sump strainer and sump for heavy grit or scattered parts first.  Then change filter, strain or replace fluid and check for correct pressure coming out of pump.  If its right, id pull control valve for visual inspection.


You can only engage one speed and direction at a time.  When leakage is hanging up two functions at once it will feel like a brake.  The one with the most force is driving the carriage while the other is slipling but attempting to bind the unit up by opersting at a different gear ratio at the same time as another gear ratio.  In automatics its called "hanging up."  'My th-400 "hangs" the 1-2 shift' for instance. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: ehp on February 04, 2021, 12:52:16 PM
are you sure its a 667D, a D around here all have the 5.9 cummins in them . If the machine will work in 2 second gear then that pretty much rules out everything to the point it has to be in the tranny and I do not know where you live so cannot say where to go to get it fixed but if you end up at the wrong guy hang on to your socks cause the price will scare you on getting it fixed
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 04, 2021, 04:03:29 PM
Ehp... Yes it is a Detroit was changed out from a Cummins when I bought it.. They got a take out Detroit and had it half way installed when I purchased it. I love in Washington state..frog hollow in Seattle seems to know there stuff when I got other parts from them so far..
It is the 3 speed power shift. With two spools on the side. 
I did drain the sump and found parts from the hydraulic brake which is why I replace those parts. During inspection I did find a cage from a tapered roller bearing but I did not find any other pieces that did not go to the brake. The cage was about 4 bearings long.
 I took an inspection camera up inside and looked around as much as I could and did not see anything out of the ordinary. supposably the guy that had it before me said there was no problems with the shifting of the transmission but it had also sat for apparently five to eight years before I bought it which I did not know at the time.

so maybe something got into a hydraulic hose which then in turn made it into the valve body? I can pull the linkage off of the valves and try to shift it that way and see if that'll make a difference..
Is there anything internally that would allow fluid to go different directions and caused the hang up? Or that only be on the outside spool valve attached to the side of the transmission?

Thanks for your quick responses to my posts
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 04, 2021, 06:42:59 PM
That transmission has five clutches.  Reverse and third are on one clutch shaft , forward and second on another .  Then you have low, which is a single shaft. The second speed clutch has likely mechanically failed with the clutch disc wadding up on themselves and locking second clutch in all the time. In any given gear you will have two clutch packs engaged.   When three are engaged it will lock up or drag.  That is why f2 and R2 work because speed clutch is engaged in those gears normally.  This is a picture of a later model transmission but the clutch replacement is the same.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG1247.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1612482080)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG1248.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1612482115)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 04, 2021, 07:12:26 PM
Kiko.. What is your background with this machine? You sound like you know what you're talking about with my issue.. So just feeling out your expertise.
Also for anybody is there a chance I can leave motor in and just pull tranny? I know it's tight in there just weighing all options.
And I do appreciate all suggestions with my tranny issues.. Thanks
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 04, 2021, 08:00:15 PM
I am not at your machine, so any thing I comment on about your skidder is merely speculation, an effort to help.  What I am telling you is from experience, specially on Clarks and Timberjacks ( many ran the same transmission except they did not have a divorced converter). The pictures I posted are from a H667 service manual as it was easily  accessable at the time.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 04, 2021, 08:44:26 PM
Kiko is the boss dude.  Master equipment fixer guy. Thats all he does.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 04, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
The reason I ask is I was leaning to one of the clutch packs being locked up like you said also.. If I can read the parts diagram correctly I only see a few of the roller bearings in the transmission that would match the cage I found in the bottom and unfortunately it was not in the hydraulic brake I rebuilt.

Well thinking the tranny is coming out was hoping not to but figured that in the back of my head the whole time was hoping that I was missing something.

Thanks to all that responded I do appreciate it.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 04, 2021, 09:10:52 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/16124909304462866347901725587234.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612490948)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/16124908897887630567300878076954.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1612490947)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 05, 2021, 12:01:17 AM
Ooh an esco too?  All the want.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Skeans1 on February 05, 2021, 09:13:33 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on February 05, 2021, 12:01:17 AM
Ooh an esco too?  All the want.
Looks more like a Young swinger.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 05, 2021, 12:11:03 PM
It's a esco 212B from what I have been told..
Try and find pictures on line with that grapple combination and machine and they're few and far between.. Almost non existent at least when I try to find them
so I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing but it sounded like it was more of a Pacific Northwest thing.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Skeans1 on February 05, 2021, 03:16:23 PM
Quote from: Snowdemon on February 05, 2021, 12:11:03 PM
It's a esco 212B from what I have been told..
Try and find pictures on line with that grapple combination and machine and they're few and far between.. Almost non existent at least when I try to find them
so I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing but it sounded like it was more of a Pacific Northwest thing.
Does it have ESCO cast into the side of the boom or grapple?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 05, 2021, 06:54:11 PM
It may be possible to remove the transmission without removing the engine,  but this issue is The cab does not come all the way off IIRC.  We would always remove the dash and front uprights first and then remove the engine and torque converter together.  Then the transmission.  Since the hoist cable/chain will not hang directly above transmission it with swing forward when you lift.  Going back you can rig a cone along to the rear our put yolk and lower and pull it back into place.  We had built an extention for the forklift where could come right over the front tire and pluck it out.  I think I still have that thing , gotta hide it from the insurance man nowadays.  
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 06, 2021, 12:21:48 AM
Looks like I will just pull the engine.. Won't take that much longer to yard it out.. Prob spend more time trying to work around the engine then just getting it out of the way. 
Sounds like you got experience with it for sure.. To bad you not close by I'm guessing or I would hire you to help me out.
Yes it has esco on the boom and grapple.. Heck the part numbers are still on the tips of the grapple still looks like it was not used hard.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Skeans1 on February 06, 2021, 01:04:12 AM
That's good, might want to make sure you can still get parts for them ESCO is pretty much closed up shop in Portland.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 06, 2021, 09:05:28 AM
Pulling the engine is a good opportunity to clean out the trash, scrape out all the grease mud that burns oh so well, address any old lines or hoses or grease fittings, rats nest wiring, etc.  powerwash the mud from the radiator, look for torn rubber mounts and check out the cradle pivot and front drive line too.


Youll have a better machine in the end. 

👍
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 06, 2021, 04:59:32 PM
Forklift male anatomy

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG1250.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1612648707)
 l forgot it had been used recently to set some pumps on a knuckle boom.  Gonna hide it  again Monday. The safety chain holds it to the mast when tilted
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 07, 2021, 10:51:00 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2706.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1612756109)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2707.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1612756139)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 07, 2021, 10:56:38 PM
Will got some of it done today.. Didn't take long at all.. Should of had it all done but had a unexpected calf 3 weeks early so spent all Saturday making sure she lived.. Gonna be -3 here in a couple days so had some stuff to make up instead..
But I did find a crack on the converter body.. Should I be concerned about this... Picture follows
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2708.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1612756554)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2709.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1612756547)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 08, 2021, 08:53:49 AM
Well thats not good, but i dont know if its the culprit.  

Look at locknstitch for repair. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Tacotodd on February 08, 2021, 11:07:14 AM
@mike_belben (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33722)  what is locknstich? 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 08, 2021, 11:44:58 AM
Cast Iron Crack repair - YouTube (https://youtu.be/Pq0wfU4ZaKk)
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 08, 2021, 06:42:45 PM
That is an issue, but unrelated to your issue at hand unless a leak there got the transmission level too low.  That is likely from a past u joint failure where the prop shaft u joint broke loose and hit the hydraulic pump.  
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 09, 2021, 12:47:24 AM
I was not thinking that was the cause of the initial problem but just another issue at have.
Kiko where is the best spot to rig up the transmission to pick it out? Get my balance about right and all .
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 09, 2021, 07:37:08 AM
I looked too quickly, saw the yoke and thought it was the trans.  Lock and stitch probably wont be the right choice.  



Cast iron right? 


I think id try to replace it.  If thats not possible i might vee it out slightly and try to tig it up with nyrod 99 or other silicon bronze type filler. A low melting temp material so as not to distort the housing.  But its gonna need a pre and post heat and slow cooldown. Probably should be gutted to do it.    
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 09, 2021, 02:06:42 PM
Think it could be ran with that crack for the 20-40 hours I might put on it in a normal year? I work a full time job this is for some thinning on about 200 acres.. Until retirement in 7-10 of I'm lucky then maybe more after that.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 09, 2021, 03:43:44 PM
if oil is oozing out id fix it.  if not id probably try to run it and keep tabs.  

if the answer isn't obvious clean the area real good and put some paint liberally on the crease.  that way if the paint cracks again you know its reopening at some point.  it is also possible that the crack is on the suction side of the thing and lets in air.  i have no idea what I'm really even looking at.. just that hydraulic housings either hold fluid pressure in or ambient air out, generally speaking.  if that housing still does so, maybe you can get by with it.  


the lock and stitch is a good system but if there is a machined interior surface and a component there it would be a challenge to make that work.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 09, 2021, 04:43:35 PM
I thought I had said it was on the converter housing but I might have left that out.. So it's on the converter housing right next to the hydraulic pump that tons the steering and blade I believe..

I don't know or don't think there is any pressure on that side but I really don't have any idea I'm not familiar with how that operates. But it is like a automatic transmission then it would probably have fluid in there.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 09, 2021, 07:16:21 PM
No pressure right there just splash lube for the accessory pump drive gears. Scratch ,clean it and JB it. I am not familiar with swinge set up.  Does the swinger have a dedicated pump? The fixed grapple clarks I have dealt with had two pumps driven off the torque converter housing. The cast steel case housing pump is hydraulic and the aluminum housing pump is the transmission pump.  
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 10, 2021, 01:52:19 AM
Kiko
Yes a total of 3 pumps driven off converter. Two hydraulic and the one charge pump.
Two separate hydraulic tanks one for bade-steering one for the swing grapple.

Where do you pick from on the tranny for correct balance. Hoping to do that this week other things got in the way again and did a little clean up so I could find the bolts tonight.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 10, 2021, 04:18:45 PM
We would remove a bolt from the rear cover and one from the front. With longer bolt, 7/16 I think, hook a chain. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 10, 2021, 06:24:00 PM
Kiko

Would you spend the time to drill the end of the crack and just fill the hole with epoxy so it won't leak? That way the crack wouldn't run anymore. Ya I know not the "correct" fix but a little more then just a cover up fix.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 10, 2021, 07:44:40 PM
IMO i would just put the weld in a tube on it.  A debur bit gives the weld glue something  to grab .  The only way to fix it correctly is to replace the housing. You seem to familiar with equipment .  I would get into the transmission first to make the decision how much money your willing to spend.  A full on rebuild including torque converter and charge/transmission pump may be in order because of contamination from the clutch failure. The charge pump has an aluminum housing and inside of the pump will almost certainly be damaged. If you it do yourself I will help you the whole way through, brings back the glory days.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 10, 2021, 09:45:21 PM
Kiko..
So the way I look at the book where the second gear clutch pack is... Is there a reason I have to pull the tranny out? Can't I just pull the front cover off while it's in the machine and get two if not all three clutch packs out the front? Little tighter then doing on the shop bench but wouldn't have to borrow the boom truck and un hook more hydraulic hoses.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/16130113761598641733102301554876.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1613011378)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 10, 2021, 09:54:34 PM
By removing the front cover you can access both clutch sides of the reverse third clutch shaft. You can also access the forward side only of the forward second. You can see in the parts diagram that the F2 shaft slides through the case and the a gear and snap ring is installed on that shaft. The rear section must be removed to access that snap ring. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 10, 2021, 09:59:29 PM
Hold that thought.  
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 10, 2021, 10:10:22 PM
Stated above is correct.  The gear and snap ring is actually on the R3 shaft. R3 can be pulled off the large splined gear that goes in side 3rd  fiber clutches  The rear cover and low clutch would have to be removed to get to another snap ring to remove F2 .
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 10, 2021, 10:17:38 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG1248~2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613013438)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 10, 2021, 10:35:52 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/16130113761598641733102301554876~2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1613014267)
. To remove the front cover other than the  obvious . This plug must be removed and this snap ring help open while removing the front cover. Use snap ring pliers held open with a zip tie.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG1247~2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613014515)
the R3 shaft may try to come out with the front cover. The input yolk does not have to be removed at this point neither do the two bolts at the bottom with the tie wire.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Satamax on February 10, 2021, 11:01:05 PM
Well, i don't know the machine, nor the cast iron type. 

If it was for myself, i think i would try to repair the crack. Thought, that might lead to the case's replacement. 

If it is grey or white cast iron, it's doable. If black, impossible. I'm by no mean expert. But i have done two repairs on cast iron, on my iveco's axle. 

I guess the crack has been started by the flange bolt facing it's end. Too tight in an improperly threaded hole may be. 

What i would do, groove less than half way through the crack. And stitch weld.  With 312-16 or 312-17 electrode. 

What i mean by that. Do a dot of welding in the middle of the length of the crack one at the  bolt's end. Peen the weld, with a drill punch or pointy hammer.  Cover with rockwool or superwool. Wait till it's cold to the touch. Do two dots of welding, next to the previous ones, welding into those. Going away from the bolt. Peen the weld. Cover, and let cool down. Don't do dots any bigger than 1/2 3/4 at the very maximum. Don't get carried away, let it cool thoroughly.  Covering it each time you weld.  And progress slowly like that until you have the crack covered. 

If you hear "cling cling" when the metal is cooling down, it's "dead" 

Been searching for the pics. Can't seem to find these.  I will post later if i manage to dig these. 

Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 11, 2021, 11:05:09 AM
put moderate heat on it post weld so you DO NOT hear any ping cling ding ting.

im not familiar with those fillers max mentioned offhand but in cast repairs i don't do the weld cool weld cool weld thing at all and have not seen it recommended in any welding books i can recall.  i have seen a lot of guys on 4wd forums telling each other to do that in order to weld trusses onto axle housings without warping them but in me experience its a waste of time.  i had a dummy 3rd with pucks to hold a stress proof rod for axle building and as soon as you hit the first bead the housing will pull no matter what you do.  its gonna need straightening after for the axle seals to stay concentric to the diff carrier bearings.  i lashed housings to a heavy machine table then warmed em up and welded em up in one period with additional heating if it was a lengthy period.  then after, either bottle jacked or torched and quenched them back into alignment with the jig for a gauge.


I've welded different housing flanges onto turbochargers and I've welded turbo flanges onto OEM cast iron exhaust manifolds to make factory like turbo manifolds, all with success, by warming the entire part usually over or in a wood stove before welding with interpass heat if clinking started.. and then a slow cool by putting it back in or on the stove and letting it go out naturally.  

quickly waving around a rose bud or weed burner tip can work too.  you don't want any large temperature differences across the part.  the whole part should be hot or cold if at all possible for any high stress cast welding application.  exhaust manifolds live between -50 and glowing red with 75lbs of turbo bouncing off the end, but they don't when one part of a manifold is at another temp extreme from the other so keep that in mind.  cast wants an even temp.


you can't go wrong with peening either, it relieves some of the internal stresses that make the ping ting dings
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Satamax on February 11, 2021, 11:43:51 AM
Mike, the weld cool weld cool, is in order not to heat the part. Or barely. It takes forever. But that's the quick and dirty technique for this kind of job. 

The proper one being dismantling everything. Putting the housing in a oven. Warm to 400c° over 24 hours. Put it in a warmed bed of sand. With the crack just barely over the surface. Then weld either with high nickel content rods, or 312 type rods.  Peen the weld. And cover. Let it cool down as slow as possible. A week being a good idea. 

Iirc, there is the dogbone type of stitches, for repairing. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 11, 2021, 11:59:08 AM
Kiko
So in previous discussions on the topic we were thinking that the second gear in the tranny could be bad. If I decided to pull the front cover off I would not be able to access both clutch packs in the second gear am I following that correctly? So it sounds like maybe I should just plan on pulling the transmission so I can get to both sides of the clutch pack. I would hate to just replace part and find out that that was not the issue. Or could I pull the front off and if I don't find an issue then pull the rest of the transmission out after that?
Thoughts?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 11, 2021, 03:00:17 PM
i would never be satisfied without seeing every part.  i could never just roll bearings into a motor or whatever. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 11, 2021, 05:30:39 PM
Pulling the front cover will give access to the reverse, third and forward only.  Of course it would be no more of an issue to remove the transmission if you pulled the cover first.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 11, 2021, 06:21:33 PM
That was my thought.. So front cover coming off tonight sounds like
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 11, 2021, 11:22:39 PM
So found my issue.. Bearing on from of drum going out.. That was the cage I found.. Another bearing on a idler gear also on way out.
Looks like someone had been in here before with the brazing and some different bolts.(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2717.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613103304)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2724.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613103340)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2722.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613103341)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2723_01_BURST1002723_COVER.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613103367)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 11, 2021, 11:28:24 PM
I pulled the drum in the upper right out and looked at clutches and they look fine with no burning or discoloration.
I need a bushing in the front cover and 3 seals that go on the shaft..
Any idea on part numbers for those? Will look at the print of course.
Anything else I should replace on this side while it's open?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2718.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613104070)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2720_01_BURST1002720_COVER.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613104046)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2721.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613104045)
  
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 12, 2021, 12:12:49 AM
So being rusty,  I think I got the position if the clutches wrong.  You can access the reverse ,  forward , and second.  The shaft you were able to pull off is F2.  The seal ring damage is definitely an issue.  You can now blow compressed air into the ports between the seal rings and check the clutch engagement.  
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 12, 2021, 12:20:51 AM
These two gears should spin freely of the clutch drum.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG2721~2.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1613107212)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 12, 2021, 01:09:09 AM
Kiko
So I should be able to turn the front gear and back gear and drum should stay and not turn.
And where do I put the air and if I do that it should engage the clutches?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 12, 2021, 11:22:42 AM
Yes those gears should spin freely when not engaged.  Here is where you apply air to check for clutch engagement , with air applied the corresponding  gears should not longer spin in the clutches.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG1262~2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613146927)
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 12, 2021, 12:27:35 PM
Ok I understand now.. Those seals seal out the oil ports so if bushing is wore that's where you can lose clutch pressures and in turn burn clutch packs up.. One of multiple ways I'm sure but that could be one. 
do you feel it would be money well spent to replace the clutch packs on what I can access from the front side now or since the one  looked good without disassembly should I let it ride?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 12, 2021, 07:23:26 PM
IMO it would be wise to replace all the seals you encounter.  Esp the clutch piston seals. An after market seal kit sells for around $400 and will have all seals including the metal seal rings gaskets ect.  That trans is a 32000?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 12, 2021, 09:12:47 PM
I was thinking it was the 28000.. how do I tell which one for sure?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 12, 2021, 09:24:30 PM
I think you are right, 32000 is a 4 speed. The seal kit is the same.  I used search engine for  Clark 32000 transmission seal kit there is one on eBay.  I have aquired them from aftermarket parts inc.  
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 12, 2021, 09:50:08 PM
Okay so I put air in the two holes closest to the drums on either shaft and that you could hear the clutch packs lock and you could not turn both drums I shot air on the outside two holes closest to the front cover and you can hear those clutch packs shift but it did not make a difference on the drums turning. I could hear air leaking on the first two holes that I did but I don't know if I had too much air that was after it had shifted the clutch packs and I kept air on it.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 12, 2021, 09:58:30 PM
On the picture with are saying these two gears should turn... When I air up the back hole it locks the left side clutch drum up with the right side drum.. and if I air up the right side it locks with the left drum.
The back gear never turns that I can see. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 12, 2021, 10:09:08 PM
Okay scratch what I previously said. It would help if I unhook the front drive line. So left drum air in the back hole it still locks and will not turn right side air in the back hole it will turn the back gear on the left side and it will turn the clutch drum semi freely on the right.
Hope I'm making sense.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 12, 2021, 10:11:22 PM
I think it perception.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG2717~2.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1613185440)
 You would spin this / these gears by hand and it should lock up when air is applied. Since you have the front cover off , input gear, these gear are no longer meshed to each other .
Or maybe I don't understand the question. Transmission pressure is around 270psi so I doubt you could put to much air in. The clutch pistons have a leak off orfice so you will hear a slight leak as normal, but each clutch should leak about the same.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 12, 2021, 10:16:41 PM
Taking the drive line out will not help, you have to remove the rear line as well as they are both connected to same output shaft.  You have to have two clutch packs engaged and front cover on to roll the assembly from input to output and you have to be applying air through the ports with control valve removed. At this point you are just trying to check the individual clutches.  
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 12, 2021, 10:43:07 PM
I already had the rear out when I was testing to eliminate the rear end at the point of before I tore the tranny apart..
So by describing what I did with the air and the clutches does it sound like they are correct or what I have an issue in the reverse 3rd clutch packs
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 13, 2021, 02:49:27 PM
Just to be clear on what you are saying,
When you air the Left ( facing the trans?) inside clutch it engages the larger gear at the back and the entire shaft locks up and can't be spun?  
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 13, 2021, 04:37:18 PM
Kinda..it locks up the two drums and I can't turn either.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 13, 2021, 05:17:10 PM
Can you post videos on here? If so I can post one when I'm trying to air it up.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 13, 2021, 05:25:55 PM
When you had the F2 shaft removed could you move this plate up and down?

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG2721~3.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1613255053)
 I think you have do youtube or something like that and then post link. Beyond me.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 13, 2021, 05:31:33 PM
I did not try to move that plate. But I can go back out and try that.
If I air up the f2 shaft I could rotate the small gear on that shaft still.
If I recall when I air up the other shaft I could not rotate the smaller gear. It would try and lock up.
I can go back and try all of them again tomorrow. What am I looking for? The clutches all "shift" when I air up the corresponding hole.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 13, 2021, 06:36:43 PM
There should be slack in the clutch when not engaged, you should be able to move that plate up and down. If not there is clutch damage inside possibly warped disc.  That snap ring around the outside of the plate should be easy to remove with a slotted screw drive. The plate should not be pushed up against snap ring when not engaged. Your original symptoms keep bring me back to 2nd speed clutch issues.  Two directional clutches activated in any manor at the same time would cause drag and possibly lock up.


Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 13, 2021, 08:23:09 PM
Ok heading to town today with the family for food..I will look at it tomorrow. Re air clutches first then pull 2 gear clutch pack off and inspect clutches.
Does the same run true for the Rev 3rd clutch pack? With the ring being loose? I don't remember any play on that side.  I was going to pull the gear off but could not get it to move after I took the snap ring of..
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 13, 2021, 08:39:01 PM
Yes all the clutch packs should have that slack.  On the R3 shaft where you can see that same plate , it may be against the ring, but you should be able to push it in slightly off the ring. Those bearing are extremely hard to remove . Usually have to have a bearing puller esp when still in the case.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 14, 2021, 06:03:13 PM
Ok so I aired both shafts up... Both of the shafts when air in both holes at separate times.. the small gear is able to turn just fine.
 there is slack in all 3 plates and I pulled the snap ring out of one clutch pack and clutches looked good.. Picture to follow.
Pulled snap ring off the left hand shaft think it's the reverse/third and was able to look at a couple of clutch plates.. Had some trouble getting it back together but figured it out and re installed the snap ring.
Re checked the "shift" with air on the shafts and all had a "snap" sound when aired except the reverse/third in the front hole now... It's really faint sounding but you can see the plate on the front move slightly so I think it's fine. That's the one I had a little trouble lining back up. Think it's all in my head maybe.
Anyhow all sounds like it passes so machine the one main bearing I found that was not keeping all the balls spaced correctly was the problem???
Anything else Kiko?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 14, 2021, 06:04:27 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2734.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613343848)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2735.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613343848)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 14, 2021, 06:35:53 PM
It has me scratching my head as well.  I don't want to keep running you in circles but  that snap sound you should hear in all the clutches.  I would not think that bearing would cause the symptoms your described but I  could not say for sure. When you activate the left faint clutch does there seem to be more air leakage than the others? Does the gear that slides into that clutch lock when air is applied?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 14, 2021, 06:59:56 PM
The air leakage seems about the same for all spots..
The gear does not lock up on any of the clutch engagements. Doing the same thing to each hole on both shafts the small gear acts the same on both.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 14, 2021, 07:03:34 PM
On the front of the transmission there is supposed for two o rings..I only saw one come off and all signs only point to one... No Markings on the front cover where there was a o ring. 
The bottom hole of the two didn't not show it had one. Don't know if it was supposed to or not.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 14, 2021, 07:31:20 PM
Can you spin this gear by hand , not the shaft?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG2717~2~1.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1613349109)
 Then when applying air you should not be able to turn this gear by hand as it should be connected to the shaft at this point.  If you can turn with with air applied then there is an issue. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 14, 2021, 07:39:38 PM
I believe there should be two orings  , can remember for sure but if there is machined recess there should be an orings.  I have the parts book for.that specific transmission I will try to dig it out tommorow.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 14, 2021, 07:44:03 PM
Those seals rings on the shaft with the bad bearing could be your entire issue.  Back to your previous question I suppose the bad bearing could have allowed the shaft to wobble and damage the seal rings and the sleeve.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 14, 2021, 09:19:57 PM
Yes with air applied I can turn this gear.
With air applied I can NOT turn the drum.
With no air drum turns with air drum does not turn.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 14, 2021, 09:21:36 PM
The seal rings that were in front of the bad bearing OR you taking about seals behind the small gear?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 14, 2021, 09:40:04 PM
I am going to send a pm
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 14, 2021, 10:22:15 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2738.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613356849)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2737.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613356858)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2739.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613356860)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2736.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613356894)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 14, 2021, 10:50:29 PM
So after adjusting my air pressure and putting air in the front two holes on each shaft they lock up the smaller her so or can't be turned.
Putting air to the rear holes it locked up both drums.. Thinking everything is working correctly in the two drum packs now with the little air adjustment.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 15, 2021, 08:34:17 PM
It would be wise to check the end of the R3 shaft for damage as well.  Those seal rings must float in their groove.  Sometimes the shaft can be cleaned up with a small triangle file .  Before in stalling the new seal rings , flip the seal over and make sure it travels completely around it's grove with no resistance. Lightly file the tight spots . Also check the transmission pump. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 15, 2021, 08:53:26 PM
Ok will check the seals..I ordered parts today so this will I should see them.
What should I look at on the pump? 
The guy I talked to today didn't think 240 was necessarily bad but it is at the low end of the specs. but since we're not running a winch only a grapple he says he does not think that that would become an issue at all. Would you agree that that Kiko?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 15, 2021, 09:52:13 PM
Depends , did you check those pressures at operating temperature? If not the pressure would likely be out of range low at operating temp. The aluminum housing of the pump can be damaged easily by small metal fragments . The pump is a simple gear pump and can easily be  inspected and reassembled if not damaged .  If there was debris in the screen it will almost certainly be damaged.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 15, 2021, 10:03:47 PM
It was warm temps might not have been up to the correct temp tho..I will check the pump easy to do right now..I have another used pump off of a 668 Clark looks the same I can check that one out also.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 15, 2021, 10:58:47 PM
Well charge pump was looked fine but there was quite a bit of rust and one bearing on the main drive was pretty rusted and started to pit the shaft.. Pictures to follow
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 16, 2021, 12:16:15 AM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2761.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613452483)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2755.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613452471)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2761~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613452539)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 16, 2021, 12:19:09 AM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2758.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613452619)
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/60852/KIMG2760.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613452729)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Satamax on February 16, 2021, 05:37:54 AM
Just my opinion. That pump is shot. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 16, 2021, 09:11:04 AM
Is that the pump off your machine or 668 you had in stock.  Either way that pump is damaged.  Anytime the there is damage between the suction and discharge side , just scratch's large enough for your fingernail to catch, will reduce pump efficienty.  

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG2755~2.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1613484569)
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 16, 2021, 09:14:28 AM
The machine sat parked for a long while.  The rust formed on the dry side of the gears and stained the housing.  And yeah it looks pretty bad.  That gall in the right hand pocket isnt good.  It might be making sufficient flow and pressure now but its only going to get worse in time.  


Downstream of the pump is sure to be a relief valve and its seat may be just as rusty and pitted from sitting.  I would want to inspect that and atleast lap it if neeed.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 16, 2021, 09:26:03 AM
Mike
You taking about the converter pressure valve?
I think the guy I ordered parts from had said he was going to send a rebuild kit for that pressure valve.. Will double check this morning.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on February 16, 2021, 11:47:47 AM
I have no experience with this machine, just saying in general.  A pump is always followed by a relief and if the pump guts rusted, any steel relief valve or seat downstream is at risk too.  Having low control pressures for any reason will give a lot of grief in any valve body, since all the springs and piston areas are tuned for the design pressure in the circuits.  Outside the design range they cant function reliably. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 16, 2021, 08:07:15 PM
This is the torque converter flow diagram. The arrow is to the regulator it serves as a flow divider/ pressure reducing valve to provide low pressure oil to the torque. 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25160/KIMG1264~2~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1613524010)
 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 16, 2021, 08:21:33 PM
I would also advise checking the condition of the fiber gear between the torque and engine flywheel. It is a common failure engine has to come or torque or both. 
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 16, 2021, 10:48:21 PM
Is there a way to check fiber gear easily or do you have to take all the bolts loose around the outside and remove converter?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 16, 2021, 11:47:44 PM
The ring of bolts that secure the tc to the flywheel housing need to be removed. If you do this, the torque has a replaceable bushing on the nose that serves as a pilot bearing into flywheel. Make sure the pilot does not have wear this will cause premature failure.There is a 16 bolt fiber gear and a 32 bolt version ring gear.
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 21, 2021, 06:58:00 PM
Kiko
So got the cover back on and what is the trick to get the shaft with the snap ring back in to position to get the ring in the groove?
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on February 21, 2021, 08:01:54 PM
It can be difficult, but basically you must pull the F2 drum out . Sometimes a lady foot bar will do it by reaching in and getting behind the bearing to pull it.  I have built tools for that. One threads on to a snatch hammer.  
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on February 21, 2021, 10:10:26 PM
It was a "snap" to get it pulled in.. Was able to get a hook behind the gears on the drum and have a little jerk and snap it was done..
Waiting for the new charge pump and have to rebuild the pressure valve on converter then the engine is going back in..
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on March 01, 2021, 11:59:23 PM
Almost got it all back together should have it running maybe Thursday and we will see if the problems have been corrected..
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: Snowdemon on March 06, 2021, 07:51:30 PM
Well it all basically back together. Few pieces to do but mostly minor.
It seems to work correctly now. No binding and feeling like the brake is on.
Hopefully I can get a few odds and ends buttoned up and get it out to actually pull on something and see how it works.
I would like to thank everybody for there thoughts on these issues and give Kiko a big shout out for all his guidance.
Thanks
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: mike_belben on March 07, 2021, 06:13:30 AM
You wont find many guys like him.  Whenever i break something i always think boy i hope this is a belben problem and not a kiko one!

smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: kiko on March 07, 2021, 11:38:53 AM
Excellent!!
Title: Re: Clark 667d grapple skidder
Post by: RCBS on January 05, 2023, 02:35:04 PM
I never comment here, just lurk but I had to log on after seeing this to give an internet high five to Kiko.  This repair would have been a nightmare without his help.

Wherever you are I hope you are doing well Sir.  Kudos and my hat's off to you.  Well done.