Got a call about cutting 8x8" X 8' posts 20,000 of them down to 7x7" so i wonder if this is a good job based on the timber being southern yellow treated pine for my bandsawmill. Will it wreak havok on the blade? i would wear a resporator and a take clothes off at the end of the day i would assume to be safe.
i was thinking i could lay out 6 timbers on at once to speed it up. If they lay flat on a level deck it should be ok right to cut all 6 at once to 6 7/8?
20,000? That's uhh, nuts! They are removing the "best" part of the treatment, causing a green thing problem, and wasting a boatload of money. Why not contract to cut them 20,000 7x7 posts and send them to the treatment plant?
Ya i understand its a goverment job and they already have the wood ordered and on site. IM not telling them what to do just looking to get a idea on what i should do.
Find out all their osha, safety and disposal specs. Run.
Quote from: Don P on May 26, 2021, 06:06:40 PM
Find out all their osha, safety and disposal specs. Run.
I would be working for the contractor doing the building not the goverment. Just sawing on there jobsite. Not sure i understand your comment
I suspect you would end up being liable for a superfund site. Cutting and disposal of that quantity of treated on a government job makes me wonder if you'll end up holding the bag when someone sees the dust blowing. I think you are supposed to capture and properly dispose of everything. I wouldn't do anything verbal, get them to lay it all out in writing. It's your call but I think I'd pass.
I'd try to learn more about the pressure treatment type. You can look up something called Material Safety Data Sheets to get more information. You have a plan to respirate, clothe, and eye protect, but check those sheets to see if these are adequate. Most of sawing will create inhalation hazards; you're not eating around it, so not a lot of ingestion hazard. It's probably Copper Chromated Arsenate CCA or similar. Bought by govt., it'll meet some spec. Don't let it burn. Sharp blades of course. Wet the dust to keep it from blowing. You can mix it with other dust to dilute. Dispose in trash if permitted. Collect and bury above clay away from water if you're rural with no other options.
I don't know what you're planning to saw with but stacking up 6 across and sawing 8x8 to 7x7 is like a 48" cut, right? or maybe you're butting ends somehow and doing a 2x3? Which sounds good until you try it. Clamping and etc. becomes fun. Rotating cants will be interesting.
Your real problem is handling 20,000 sticks of large wood. Moving that onto and off the mill. Stacking big cants is a lot of fun (not). Would you hope to save your cuttings? It might not work out that easy... Wood moves after its sawn and dried. It's not going to be quite square when you get it. You might have a lot of waste anyway.
I'd probably take this job if the money was right. Maybe do a contract with the contractor and specify as is, if you feel you need protection. But usually they are set up for that and can protect you from them. Just ask if you're curious. They might tell you.
and I guess after 20,000 of them, you'll know exactly how you should have done it and you can tell us ;-)
Quote from: esteadle on May 26, 2021, 07:41:47 PM
I'd try to learn more about the pressure treatment type. You can look up something called Material Safety Data Sheets to get more information. You have a plan to respirate, clothe, and eye protect, but check those sheets to see if these are adequate. Most of sawing will create inhalation hazards; you're not eating around it, so not a lot of ingestion hazard. It's probably Copper Chromated Arsenate CCA or similar. Bought by govt., it'll meet some spec. Don't let it burn. Sharp blades of course. Wet the dust to keep it from blowing. You can mix it with other dust to dilute. Dispose in trash if permitted. Collect and bury above clay away from water if you're rural with no other options.
I don't know what you're planning to saw with but stacking up 6 across and sawing 8x8 to 7x7 is like a 48" cut, right? or maybe you're butting ends somehow and doing a 2x3? Which sounds good until you try it. Clamping and etc. becomes fun. Rotating cants will be interesting.
Your real problem is handling 20,000 sticks of large wood. Moving that onto and off the mill. Stacking big cants is a lot of fun (not). Would you hope to save your cuttings? It might not work out that easy... Wood moves after its sawn and dried. It's not going to be quite square when you get it. You might have a lot of waste anyway.
I'd probably take this job if the money was right. Maybe do a contract with the contractor and specify as is, if you feel you need protection. But usually they are set up for that and can protect you from them. Just ask if you're curious. They might tell you.
and I guess after 20,000 of them, you'll know exactly how you should have done it and you can tell us ;-)
Ok so i would not be responsible for clean up and removal of anything. I would not be responsible for loading or unloading they just need a saw. They said they would provide all labor to speed it up and i just run the saw... I was thinking of putting 6 on the deck butt ends 3 wide since they are already square and just cut two sides to spec. I was wondering if they would need to be clamped or not but i do see how clamps could get in the way and be tricky.
For the safety minded,
How about simply rigging a garden hose in place of your regular drip and having no dust? It may require additional saw clean ups for the gooey mess in what would be in what would normally be dust exhaustion.
If a treated post is fine to pu into the ground, why would the sawdust be any different?
Then sell the boards you cut off for fencing or something like that.
Since this is not a BF job i would charge by the hour. I figure about 200 per day is doable. Thoughts?
i also considered renting it to the contractor just setting it up and letting his guys run it since its just a rip and no skill should be needed. Thoughts? what would you charge to rent your mill per day ?
I wouldn't be too keen on renting my mill out. Unless they gave me a deposit large enough to cover the cost of my mill plus lost income while I'm waiting a year for a new one. Then I'd still be hesitant.
Also 200 a day would be a pretty lofty goal. If you worked non-stop for 10 hours, you would have to average one every 3 minutes.
No, no, and no would be my answer. There is nothing about that job that makes sense and there is no way you won't end up in a boatload of trouble be it with OSHA, DEQ,EPA, or someone else.
Quote from: Southside on May 26, 2021, 09:22:57 PM
No, no, and no would be my answer. There is nothing about that job that makes sense and there is no way you won't end up in a boatload of trouble be it with OSHA, DEQ,EPA, or someone else.
So how would i be in trouble if the job requires boards to be cut and they are cut per the contractors request? He already cut a few thousand of them and is just wanting a more efficient saw. I understand if i was responsible for clean up or removal and did not follow guidelines but there should be a proper way that is not wrong to do the job.
Btw what does not make sense? large construction site with a need for a board to be cut to different dimension then what was ordered.
Quote from: Patrick NC on May 26, 2021, 09:01:52 PM
Also 200 a day would be a pretty lofty goal. If you worked non-stop for 10 hours, you would have to average one every 3 minutes.
Ok so you don't think I could load more then one at a time by butting them up on the deck side by side? they could be clamped from underneath if needed i thought.
Also its just one cut down about 1" off 8' then unload and reload more. With labor to do that i figured that is not a unlikely goal but that is why i am asking.
Quote from: kentuckymillman on May 26, 2021, 09:45:52 PM
Quote from: Patrick NC on May 26, 2021, 09:01:52 PM
Also 200 a day would be a pretty lofty goal. If you worked non-stop for 10 hours, you would have to average one every 3 minutes.
Ok so you don't think I could load more then one at a time by butting them up on the deck side by side? they could be clamped from underneath if needed i thought.
Also its just one cut down about 1" off 8' then unload and reload more. With labor to do that i figured that is not a unlikely goal but that is why i am asking.
1 every 3 minutes could be possible, but maintaining that pace for 10 hours would be a little different story. No matter how many you stack on the deck, you still have to clamp, saw, unclamp, turn each one , reclamp , saw and offbear. Then you have to account for refueling, breaks for the labor help, etc. (Don't think that the laborers are going to work 10 hours straight with no breaks. Won't happen. ) So in reality you would probably have to average one every 2.5 minutes.
OSHA does not care what you are doing for whom, they only care if you are violating one of their rules and creating a hazard to an employee. OK - so you get a respirator to protect from airborne particles. Are you and your employees in a respiratory protection program, complete with testing? Please demonstrate how you fit test your respirator and store it when not in use. Hey - while we are here we noticed you are wearing hearing protection - lets see your hearing protection program paperwork. How up to date is your Haz-com plan? EPA also does not care who told you to cut the timbers. You created the haz-mat sawdust that ended up in the soil / creek / neighbors yard / public way, so you own the cleanup, and they won't let you do it yourself either.
What makes no sense is to pay for 8x8 treated timbers, then pay someone to saw away the treatment, knowing that an inferior product is being made, while opening up a massive regulatory can of worms. That right there is why you as a "little guy" got the call. Someone wants a fall guy.
Also, those timbers are going to have sweep, bow, crook, etc so clamping multiple ones to the bed may sound like a good idea, but in reality will not work as often as you might think, and end up with a correct finished product.
OSHA has free Consultation services that you can contact ahead of time and find out what would be require without the enforcement side being involved. The DEQ and EPA here in Oregon is a far bigger pain and potential for expensive fines than OSHA. Yes I would be very concerned about my/your responsibility for the blowing sawdust, containment and cleanup. Not just your employees but any employees in the area the could develop "alleged" or real issues from the dust. Might need to be sawing on concrete pad or some form of seale groung to krrp rain from leaching the chemicals into the round, SO DO your home work first. jut because you are working for a contractor does no remove protect you from the regulatory food chain. I retired after 20 yrs with Or- OSHA enforcement.
Osha is only involved (with you) if you have an employee. If you're working alone as a self employed contractor, you could work buck naked standing on a pile of beer cans with no guarding on your saw. The contractor that you contract with (and his insurance carrier(s) may have a different outlook on this.
This being an ongoing operation and you being a 2nd player, and assuming that this operation will not be in an a highly industrialized or a huge commercial building site, go for it if you think you can handle the sawdust for your own personal safety.
Quote from: 711ac on May 27, 2021, 04:45:44 AMOsha is only involved (with you) if you have an employee.
Don't count on that 100%.
If you are working "for pay", the OSH laws are likely going to kick in.
If you are out there dropping and sawing trees as a "hobby", then it's not their concern. Once you do it as a business...
Exact legalise differs according to where you are. But you can do all sorts of stupid stuff if you aren't being paid to do it.
As for the chemicals.
Local tractor dealer bought up a site that was previously a lumber yard. Thought it was all cool because the large gravel covered yard was ideal for parking their display tractors. Turned out the site was basically hazmat due to the leaching chemicals from ~50 years of treated fence posts that had been through the site. They ended up having to haul off the top 12" of the site and replace it, and that got down to close to the ~120 year old hand dug storm-water drains under the site. So that had to be dug our and piped. Add in Covid disruption, and they are only just opened on the new site after 2 years.
Just a few thoughts mostly on one side of this.
First on the other side, I've been told by govt official that PT sawdust is not hazardous waste as far as disposal is concerned it can go to a landfill.
Now back to the main side.
Same guy told me to be very very careful if I saw it as he knew someone who almost died after sawing PT in his shop on a tablesaw without respirator protection.
I've sawn quite a few days now and never have had a day where I didnt go home with dust on my clothes, nose, elsewhere on my body and even it gets in my truck 20-30 ft away. We all joke about sawdust in our pockets.
How would you ever know for sure that whatever respirator you chose would really protect you or helpers. This isn't a casual situation. It takes fitment testing and monitoring to be safe with airborne hazards. Including Tyvek suits. Ask anyone who has to deal with regulations about lead paint dust hazards like renovation and painting contractors. Or pharmaceutical production workers who wear and use PPE all day.
I would never take a job sawing any volume of PT wood, respirator or not. I have myself, customer, helpers and whoever else comes near to worry about having airborne arsenic or copper getting on them. I can say the worst thing for me about my little sawing business is interacting with government even though so far that has gone well. OSHA, someone else's lawyer or doctor, no thanks.
Remember if you don't take this job you will still be doing something else, so it isn't a net 100% addition to your revenue.
Absolutely walk away. I hear chernobyl is heating back up, perhaps a job there?
Is this Fed or local gov't?
All the safety hazards aside, I wonder what the effect on the beams will be when you saw the pressure treatment off one side. Will those posts bow? I know that is not your problem, but I just wonder.
When you plane wood it is standard to try to take off equal amounts from each side to prevent warping, why would this be different?
Doug in SW IA
On the plus side, you'll end up with 40,000 deck boards. Lol
The volume of sawdust that you would create with re-sawing thousands of timbers would be the issue. It needs to be disposed of properly. If I had assurance that the dust was being disposed of properly, then I think I might take the job. You could have a signed agreement that states that they are responsible for disposal. I would definitely limit my exposure to breathing the dust. I'm not too concerned when I build a shed or other and saw a few dozen treated boards, but with the volume you're talking about you would have a significant exposure over days and days. A good fitting respirator with P100 filter and chemical protection would do you well. As far as cutting the timbers, cutting 2 sides would be fine as long as the timbers are straight in the first place. Any that are crooked could be cut individually and made straight by cutting all 4 sides as long as the crook is not too bad.
Isn't it just like the government to need 20,000 7x7's, but buy 8x8's and then spend more money making them into 7x7's than they would have spent if they had just ordered 7x7.
Looks like the health and safety questions and concerns have all been brought up. Answers can be had for all these with regard to OSHA, EPA, etc., but any way you slice it this job is full of land mines.
I'm curious about a couple things:
- What are the actual dimensions? 7 1/2 by 7 1/2 or true 8x8? Target 7x7 or is that a nominal dimension?
- What the heck led to having 20k timbers that are the wrong dimension?
- Why are the non-standard dimensions required? Design issue? Hard to see how this developed, but I guess "government job" sort of answers the question.
(Probably no way to get the answers to those last two, but I can't help but be curious.)
I'll be standing by to see how this unfolds, but it seems like "run away" is the prudent thing to do.
I bet pressure treated water skies
I'm using treated 8x8's at work now. If they are needing a true'd up 7x7 you are probably making 4 passes and there won't be anything coming off the sides that's useable at the end of that straightening series of cuts.
> Ok so i would not be responsible for clean up and removal of anything. I would not be responsible for loading or unloading they just need a saw. They said they would provide all labor to speed it up and i just run the saw... I was thinking of putting 6 on the deck butt ends 3 wide since they are already square and just cut two sides to spec. I was wondering if they would need to be clamped or not but i do see how clamps could get in the way and be tricky.<
Yeah, I'd take this job knowing that. In fact, I did something very much like this for a landscape contractor who brought home a couple hundred logs from some of their work. It was a pleasure to work with hard workers with access to big equipment and space. Charge hourly if you can, which will give incentive to the helpers to keep things moving.
I'd suggest running them 2 x 2 instead of 2 x 3. You can rotate a cant from either side, but with 2x3 rotating the cant in the middle of 2 other cants will be difficult. Buy 4 cant hooks - one for each helper and then you'll be running as fast as your saw can run.
talked to him today sounds like they just need one pass one the saw to 6 7/8 to fit a i beam. so no turning the cant just load saw unload and reload for months.
Im thinking of just renting the machine to his skilled workers after a training that covers mill operation and osha requirements
Sounds like a good job for a scragg mill.
What do you have for a mill? I let a guy borrow my plate compactor last week. He had an "emergency" due to his kids birthday party the next day. Figured, what can he do to a plate compactor? He called me the other day, managed to blow up the engine. Credit to him he was asking for permission to buy a new engine and have a shop install it so he did me right, no complaints, but when it's "rental" equipment you know how it's run.
Quote from: kentuckymillman on May 27, 2021, 06:32:08 PM
Im thinking of just renting the machine to his skilled workers after a training that covers mill operation and osha requirements
I'd run the saw myself. I know I would enjoy it. It's fun to get stuff 'done' like this.
But if you can get the money and you prefer to go fishing, then you take the money, and you go fishing. Thats the way to do *you* ;-)
If just one face, get a powered long belt. Place cant on belt and keep saw head stationary. Should be able to do 3 per minute with 2 people each end and someone keeping wood away and wood to you.
Resaw with belt feed, one head if you can find one locally. Use generator for juice.
Much better ways than moving the head of a mill back and forth.