Still looking into a harvester on and off. I don't think it will pay but everyone here makes it work. Anyways. 2005 Sisu engine. Good? Bad? Parts through Komatsu I assume?
Nothing bad about the Sisu motors. They are owned by Agco and used in various tractors and other equipment so parts shouldn't be a concern.
What head?
Fabtek 4 roller. The machine is actually much nicer than I expected for the hours. 35,000 but a lot has been done in the last 3 years. New engine and newer head. Every 4 roller I've looked at even low hour cat 501s are busted up. This isn't. It looks to be just starting in places as the paint is cracked. But hasn't been fixed anywheres. The machines showes zero problems. I couldn't find anything loose or worn. Pins and bushing are prolly 75-80% and I'd put the drive sprockets at 50%. All hoses look the be fairly new. It was being used daily. They updated to a 501.
Thats some impressive hours.
It sure is. But is a high hour machine in good shape with papers to show replacements better or worse than a 10,000-15,000 hr machine with mostly original components. The wear parts have already been replaced. Tight and right is tight and right no matter the hours. I'm I wrong? I don't know. Like I said I was quit surprised at the condition with the hours it has. I've look at 2014s with 3-4,000 hours in worse shape. And 3 times the money.
Its hard to say whether any machine will be a cherry or a lemon. Who can know?
There's a reason it's for sale.
Quote from: Corley5 on July 24, 2021, 03:36:02 PM
There's a reason it's for sale.
Isn't everything for sale for a reason?
Besides it must have been a good one. That's a full work week all it's life. Not much down time.
Or a lot of double shifting after down time. Ran 2 20k+ hour processors, and a 40k+ hour forwarder. All three ran daily but required a good bit of TLC and tinkering to keep running.
I wouldn't touch a 35,000 hour processor with a 20 foot pole. I don't care how it's been cared for. Do you want to produce wood or wrench on an old processor? That's enough hours that metal fatigue in the super structure would be a concern.
Has the rotax been placed in the head and the carrier? Personally with that high of hours I wouldn't touch it, if the welds are done right you'd never tell the difference. With those hours I'd be willing to be the boom has been repaired. I'd check on valve as well as pump parts for availability as well.
If its the one at Lutkes for 75k you can get one with a whole lot less hours for the same money. I think Kip at Pat's Heavy Equipment has a couple with Rolly IIs for around that prices with a whole lot less hours.
From experience there is no such things as a "cheap" processor. There's expensive low hour sit and produce equipment and "cheap" wrench on it and pray you can produce equipment.
I understand. But some of you guys say "how many years will your body handle hand cutting" then you say "don't buy a cheap processor" so what's left, rob a bank lol i don't have rich people to help me or anything lol
You don't want to start out in an old processor like that. It would be one thing if you had grown old together, and you knew it's quirks. But even then, it gets to the point you are paying more for parts than payments on a newer one, not to mention the lost production. That thing will wreck you.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on July 24, 2021, 06:32:01 PM
If its the one at Lutkes for 75k you can get one with a whole lot less hours for the same money. I think Kip at Pat's Heavy Equipment has a couple with Rolly IIs for around that prices with a whole lot less hours.
From experience there is no such things as a "cheap" processor. There's expensive low hour sit and produce equipment and "cheap" wrench on it and pray you can produce equipment.
So that '07 with 8100 hours would be safer? The way I look at that is it must have sat around a lot if those hours are accurate and if it is accurate than it most likely has all original components. So in the next 2-4,000 hours I may put a lot of major parts into. Already needs under carriage. And I bet if it was looked at in person it's got problems. I don't know what the answer is but I do know I've seen low hour headaches. Past 10,000 hours there all the same. And "bad infrastructure" well my equipment should fold right up then 😂 Thanks guys prolly keep looking and saving.
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on July 24, 2021, 07:33:05 PM
I understand. But some of you guys say "how many years will your body handle hand cutting" then you say "don't buy a cheap processor" so what's left, rob a bank lol i don't have rich people to help me or anything lol
Its a catch 22 isnt it? Buy the machines to save your body, then work 10 extra years to finance it and not lose your collateral.
The banks sure have it figured out.
When your looking in that price range they all have problems. Just a matter of how minor or major. Personally I'd rather do an undercarriage over say chasing down a glitchy measuring system, or resealing pumps and valve bodies.
Personally I'd never buy a fabtek 4 roller on anything. If going fixed head it would be a logmax 7000 or possibly a Rolly 2. Then again I'd probably never buy a fixed head tracked carrier either.
Roll the dice.
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on July 25, 2021, 07:52:04 AM
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on July 24, 2021, 06:32:01 PM
If its the one at Lutkes for 75k you can get one with a whole lot less hours for the same money. I think Kip at Pat's Heavy Equipment has a couple with Rolly IIs for around that prices with a whole lot less hours.
From experience there is no such things as a "cheap" processor. There's expensive low hour sit and produce equipment and "cheap" wrench on it and pray you can produce equipment.
So that '07 with 8100 hours would be safer? The way I look at that is it must have sat around a lot if those hours are accurate and if it is accurate than it most likely has all original components. So in the next 2-4,000 hours I may put a lot of major parts into. Already needs under carriage. And I bet if it was looked at in person it's got problems. I don't know what the answer is but I do know I've seen low hour headaches. Past 10,000 hours there all the same. And "bad infrastructure" well my equipment should fold right up then 😂 Thanks guys prolly keep looking and saving.
the 07 with 8100h isn't safer. after 8000h every machine starts giving troubles and things to tinker on. very valid points from every member here, you have some good points too!
the problem with 35k hours is that every component that hasn't been changed could start to give problems, even metal parts and original welds. every seal, oring, retainer, hose, slewing bearing, the list goes on and on.
My excavator has 8k hours but 21 years old, after sitting for 2years i had to attend several problems, i was already looking for never machines because it was one thing after another. now i fixed everything and she works again as a beauty she is, but i don't fool myself, a 20+ year old machine will sooner or later give me problems again
Quote from: Corley5 on July 25, 2021, 10:04:02 AM
Roll the dice.
Thats it.
If you cant or wont repair iron you better not buy any.
My ideal score is a machine that was maintained all along and the owner just got tired of maintaining and is selling it broke, at the broke price, with lots of recent parts. I cant afford the working price is todays free money bubble market world. Its especially ideal if i knew the machine to truly be running rather than a stranger.
Guys say if you can afford a new one you can afford an old one. Hey in 1979 that was some great advice. Will it still be in 2029 when even the dealers are struggling to figure out the new technology's new problems?
The corporate side of the trucking industry has decided brand new trucks are only a good bet when traded at about 1/4 of a typical bigrig life cycle for another new one. The steep payment is calculated into operating so the product has to be able to cover that or else yoire just borrowing to have a job. Big trucking companies are debt leveraged and many go belly up at every downturn.
Imo an overwhelming majority of the independant owner op mom n pop trucking outfits have made the best of inhouse rebuilding their good old simple reliable pre-emissions trucks and have survived many market cycles without the debt leveraging. The problem theyre facing is the good drivers are retired or running their own rigs now, that whole generation is fading away, and all are failing to find good hired drivers.
The schools are turning out drivers not suitable for 500+ hp old trucks with splitters to tear up, and theyre too whiny to live without APUs and TVs and standup bunks. so labor is whats forcing the adoption of newer trucks, not superior technology. Many times ive heard 'im done whenever this truck is.'
As the emissions and electronics get further and further advanced that new machine is less and less reliable and repairable by fewer and fewer people at higher and higher cost. So i posit that the cost/benefit curve of the buy new option is fading every year. With every "industry advancement" the dealers advertise.
I agree with you about the newer stuff Mike, but the problem is that we have arrived at the time that the "old" is getting so old that is no longer a reliable option either.
I think you almost have to base your business on that equipment you bought is obsolete the day the factory warranty expires. If you can't afford to trade and upgrade to new whenever that day comes your business model is going to fail. The 1979 advice still rings true. I don't like it but you can no longer farm with an H or 8N, log full time with a JD440A, or run a dirt work business with a D4C.
To succeed with the antiques you need uncommon mechanical skill and the drive to work long days 7 days/week to overcome the repairs and limited functionality in order to accumulate some sweat equity into newer stuff and keep on doubling down and hope to cash out before a bad cycle crushes you.
Buddy of mine ran an old timbco/rolly 2 setup. He worked 7 days a week 12+ hours a day between wrenching, sourcing parts, welding, fabricating, running for parts, and then cutting wood. Over 3 years of that he said he averaged 4~5 loads of wood a week.
Late last year he got fed up borrowed a pile of money and bought a refurbished Ponsse with large payments to go with. Now he works 5 days a week 10 hours a day and cuts 15~20+ loads a week. He goes home at night and enjoys other hobbies and goes fishing on the weekend.
He is fully aware that by the time he gets some equity in the machine it will be time for it to his the road.
Right. Its danged if ya do danged if ya dont and roll the dice on the rest. No guarantees any direction you choose
Mike I would agree with you on repair/refurbish most of the time, but not on CTL processors. If you're going to play the CTL game get something low hour. Rather than buy an old one, you may as well hire on as a mobile mechanic for someone, that's all you will be doing anyways. At least that way you'll get paid for it. A buddy of mine just parked his '03 Ponsse Ergo, it is probably approaching 40K hours. It was producing wood the day it got parked, and as soon as it came to a stop he was selling parts off of it. Because the value of a harvester with that many hours is so low, he figured he'd hang on to the engine and main pumps that were replaced in the last 2000 hours, and sell off the parts that aren't interchangeable with his new machine. I know several guys with high hour machines like that. The only reason they can make it is they have "grown old together" in a manner of speaking, and they know them inside out and all of the machines quirks. If you tried jumping in one of those as your first harvester, I just don't think you're going to make it. If you you can't afford at least a $250K dollar harvester, you can't afford a harvester at all is how I look at it.
I hate to even ask but what about this one. Heck it's only got 2,000 hours!🙄https://www.crosstrac.net/inventory/?/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/204017567/2002-timbco-t415d?dlr=1&pcid=3859669&sbc=0&title=Our+Inventory (https://www.crosstrac.net/inventory/?/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/204017567/2002-timbco-t415d?dlr=1&pcid=3859669&sbc=0&title=Our+Inventory)
If you want a tracked carrier it would be worth a look assuming the hours are correct? 2000 hours in 19 years seems suspicious......
I'd much rather buy a machine right from the woods or field any day over something sitting on a lot.
That's why I had the 🙄 face. More like 22,000 hours. Most dangle heads and or rubber tire machines are junk around here. Everyone tells me to get a fabtek head due to simplicity and toughness for hardwood and a track machine. Only guys running rubber tired keep new machines. That's a 2010 head and I see no welds in the pictures at least. And yes says working daily. 🤷🏼♂️
The meter says 20,135 hours.
🤦♂️ I just glanced at that when I seen they put 2000 in the hour description. But I figured anyways.
20k hours makes more sense.
Funny there isn't a Fabtek head left running that i can think of UP here. The ones that used to be around were all busted up, welded, and destroyed cutting hardwood all the time.
The one I ran couldn't handle our hardwood at all compared to a Rolly 2 or Ponsse dangle head.
Yes the H8's and waratahs are the go to now. But a lot of 501 cats still out there! But all the smaller guys still run fabtek. From old Deere conversion machines up to the cat.
I think the reason is dealer support. That's what we have here. A few Barkos and timberpros further north. I've only heard of one Rolly head. They hated it.
Quote from: barbender on July 25, 2021, 05:23:29 PM... The only reason they can make it is they have "grown old together" in a manner of speaking, and they know them inside out and all of the machines quirks. If you tried jumping in one of those as your first harvester, I just don't think you're going to make it. If you you can't afford at least a $250K dollar harvester, you can't afford a harvester at all is how I look at it.
I think we are beating around different sides of the same bush. If the machine price and maintenance price and the fuel price and labor price continually rise, and the wood price really still averages out to what its been for decades once this bubble runs its course.. Then the gap between what it costs and what it pays keeps getting wider.
If those lines continue to diverge, (like trucking for the same rates as 1990 but in $200k trucks instead of $100k) at some point new CTL equipment will only be economically viable to entrants who already have the money and do not need to run the machine every day to pay for it.
So what i am saying is just like the growing old with a brand new 6NZ powered 379 ship has sailed, maybe that era is coming into its twilight for little guys growing old with new CTL equipment too.
We always discuss CTL within the confines of go new or go old. But never going not at all. I am certain there are loggers out there who will be run aground by either side of the CTL coin. The ones with shallow pockets, spotty cashflow, shoddy wood, poor market connections, no trucking and lack of mechanical skills should just stay away from CTL.
No one ever says dont do it. Someone ought to remind once in a while that its a viable option, and perhaps the best one in some circumstances.
The difference in CTL equipment and the OTR trucks in your example Mike is that say a 2000 OTR truck is basic and parts are available both OEM and aftermarket. If you have a vin number you can build a "new" truck from a catalog.
A piece of 2000 CTL is full of proprietary antiquated, outdated, and obsolete computers and sensors. So unless you are able and want to re engineer the entire computer system you maybe SOL keeping it running. There isn't a large enough market for an aftermarket to grow into supporting the old machines.
For reference Peterbilt produced 42,000 trucks in 2019 and Freightliner over 100,000. Ponsse has build just over 15,000 machines since 1971. There's a reason the OTR truck market has a huge parts and service support.
I CTL now. But not mechanically. That's where the harvester comes in. And a conventional crew of new equipment isn't much cheaper in the long run. Actually more money in some cases. The problem with mechanical ctl is the harvester is a much more complex machine than anything else. So condition definitely comes into play. But what I struggle with is if it's tight and right (good condition) then it's good as low hour machine. Except for the possible obsolete parts. A older machine with a fabtek head is just like a slasher. Engine pumps, saw and house bearing. Many and I mean many of those old slashers swing a lot of wood with 30-40,000 hours. That's where I start to look for the reason people say they are a headache if high hour. Everything has the same basic components. Yet a old harvester gets a bad wrap. Not saying anyone is wrong at all.
I'm pretty sure a older track machine has a mechanical engine and a fabtek head has one encoder wheel to measure lengths. That's it.
I can see both sides of the coin, but like Mike said - the coin doesn't go very far these days, and for the little guy it sure seems like you are just financing your occupation. It's getting harder and harder to find any help, let alone someone you can put into a $500K machine. It's the same in every industry - today a new JD X Series combine will set you back $1.3 million - all you so can harvest $8.00 beans....
I type out CTL just to save myself some typing. What i mean is a harvester with a processor head and the onboard computer measuring systems.
I came to a point in cylinder heads where i was charging and getting good money and backed up pretty far. Came to a valve seat bottleneck. When i priced a brand new CNC seat and guide machine fully tooled and delivered, the math looked like another decade of slaving to pay it off. And if it croaked, being in hot water. I did not have the money and did not know if i could make the money to pay for it. Id be "passing the bill to see whats inside" as nancy would say. Jumping out of the plane to see if the parachute worked. Pulling the trigger to figure out if the gun was loaded. These are all suicide.
I made the decision to start weaning out of that business since i could not possibly train help.. Soon as you train a guy they just open up shop across town.
Scaling back freed me up to manufacture something else that came along and was extremely profitable for 8 years and then a good sale price on the whole business at the end. I had a good exit from a bad business.
I know its not forestry but thats the basis that im reasoning from. If bought cash and you get hurt you only lose the machine. But collateralized debt booboos can leave a man homeless. Atleast as an employee all you can lose is your job. You cant walk away from the noose if you pledge a home to get into it.
Quote from: Southside on July 25, 2021, 10:03:20 PM- today a new JD X Series combine will set you back $1.3 million - all you so can harvest $8.00 beans....
How many hours on the machine when you pay that off at $8 a bushel? And how many hours are left in it to pay you for the lost opportunity cost of the years it ate all the proceeds?
If the answer to part 2 is "not many" then its smarter to run someone elses machine, punch out at 5 and pocket every check.
Slasher live a pretty "easy" life sitting on the landing swinging wood all day. No mud, rocks, trees smashing on top of it, trees are all cut and limbed so they are easy to move, etc.
A CTL machine removing 4 to 6" hardwood limbs by nothing but brute ramming force is a lot of stress on steel. The frame, boom, pins, bushings, cylinders, etc take an incredible amount of load everytime you smack into a limb.
Everyone is raising a lot of good points here. I don't know much about the Fabtek/Cat 501 machines, other than they were supposed to be simpler. I have heard of the heads busting up pretty bad. Look back at Corley's experience. He went from, "think I'm going to jump into this, never thought I would" when he got into I think it was a Fabtek. I think I remember a few breakdowns where he was like, "what have I done?!" I would say remove any similarity in your mind between a processor and a slasher loader.
I understand there's differences. But we ran a delimber also so that was the same. And 4-6" limbs ramming the head back and forth is why those heads are all broke up. I'm not considering one all broke up. The two with fabtek heads I'm looking at have almost no welds. And look at the used parts for timbcos advertised. Also there not "timbco" there many manufacturers combined to make a machine. Even the fabteks. Deere engines cat bottoms. Pumps and valves are of hydraulic manufacturers not the machine manufacturer. And the 133s have a smaller bottom. I don't know 🤷🏼♂️ When I look at a machine that's what matter to me. Then I spend some time running it and that's the 2nd point that matters. I would never buy anything based on what a meter says hours/miles. When I ask on here about a machine I want to know if anyone has heard of problems or obsolete items. There's a wealth of knowledge here.
I don't know what to say about the fabtek heads. Obviously that machine has some hours, did it always have that head? If so it obviously did not cause a lot of shutdowns.
Might be hard to do but I'd look up some fabtek operators up there that have high hour machines and find out, specifically, the fail points in the head and what to do/not to do.
Corley is not the only person with bad experiences with fabtek heads and that's one of the reasons I think you see mostly a big three of Komatsu, JD, and Ponsse. If Cat can't push a system out into the woods there is a reason, and Cat made some good skidders. With fabtek I don't think it was the case of not enough marketing and sales investment like what seemed to happen with Rottne. I have never heard of any issues with Rottne just that they dont' have the dealer support that jd/komatsu/ponsse had in the NA market. Fabtek had that and still failed.
I know several with the fabtek style head. Talk to two last night. The problem with that head is the way it opens and holds wood. It's not bad it's just there's better options out there. But no option as simple. One guys is very rough shape and supposedly cuts 150-200 cord a week. Another guy I know is a old hand cutter and don't run it often. Says he's just not good with it. I think it's old dog new tricks kind of thing. That head was and is very popular.
Still available. They bought cat out. https://www.weilerforestry.com/equipment/track-harvester/h157/ (https://www.weilerforestry.com/equipment/track-harvester/h157/)
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on July 25, 2021, 09:40:20 PM
The difference in CTL equipment and the OTR trucks in your example Mike is that say a 2000 OTR truck is basic and parts are available both OEM and aftermarket. If you have a vin number you can build a "new" truck from a catalog.
A piece of 2000 CTL is full of proprietary antiquated, outdated, and obsolete computers and sensors. So unless you are able and want to re engineer the entire computer system you maybe SOL keeping it running. There isn't a large enough market for an aftermarket to grow into supporting the old machines.
For reference Peterbilt produced 42,000 trucks in 2019 and Freightliner over 100,000. Ponsse has build just over 15,000 machines since 1971. There's a reason the OTR truck market has a huge parts and service support.
I suspect the smaller relative numbers of CTL iron makes everything about keeping one together harder. The supply/demand curve is against the loggers favor.
I only have a few hundred hours behind a timbco/4 roller setup compared to thousands of dangle head Ponsse hours. My experience with the head was it lacked holding power, delimbing power, diameter capacity, and accurate length measurements.
The "cradle pocket" in the back of the head was small so any tree of any size didn't seem securely held in the head. I was never confident it was going to hold a tree tight. They are slow heads so they need a tight clamp and traction of the feed wheels to delimb where other rely on momentum. So in larger limbs the 4 rollers seemed to do a lot of digging and spinning trying to knock limbs off. Even with an independent measuring wheel the lengths were never very accurate especially in rough wood our trucker did a lot of trimming...
I don't doubt a guy can cut 150-200 cord a week with one. Depends how many hours and days are in the guys "week" sometimes also. For comparison I would cut that volume in 2 or 3 days (8-8.5 hours per day) with a Ponsse Ergo, (in softwood or aspen did 150 cord a day).
Thats good information for anyone who has not run these things, thanks for sharinng.
Just curious, how many acres did that 150cd day cover? Clearcutting?
That was clear cutting nice Aspen at 25-30 cord per acre.
From a cost point of view, this calculator might help:
https://srs.fs.usda.gov/forestops/tools/files/MRCalculator.xls (https://srs.fs.usda.gov/forestops/tools/files/MRCalculator.xls)
How far away are the Husqvarna 592's,new chainsaw or two will be a lower cost than any machine?
Most of the old forest machines appear to be in us$80K to us$100K range, to roll the dice on. A few in the us$100K to us$150K bracket that are probably stronger and heavier & not as old.
A few have said it's a bad idea. I say go for it. I would look for a machine in the 15k hr or so. By them the pumps may have been replaced. And buy a nice set of wrench's you will need them but running old gear now you there are things to repair at times. Good luck
I appreciate everyone's opinions. That's why I ask I get good debate on here. But in the equipment I can afford I don't look at hours. I look at condition and history. Beyond so many hours all equipment can be good or junk. Just how it is. And there's not much out there right now. I want a Fabtek head period. And I'm not driving all over the county just to save a few thousand if there's machines in my area. Things are getting pretty close on this 415ex. We'll find out if I want it next week.
I have an older Fabtek on a JD 490 carrier. For sure I would never keep up with anything modern, and the old hose eater has her moments, but it fells trees in the size it was built for just fine and with pine I can process a fair bit larger than she was designed to handle and do just fine.
Nice thing is she can sit when I am too busy with everything else and I don't have to worry about making a payment.
Really, don't take my opinion too seriously. I mean that. My observation point is from a low hour machine I get paid to run by someone else. I remember one time on here an Appalachian logger was asking about old JD 450 crawler loaders. He was considering one for loading out trucks with big hardwood logs, apparently they had a huge lift capacity. My opinion was, my uncle had one and with a 6 way blade on it, it would've been a useful machine but with that front end loader I thought it was the slowest, most useless piece of iron I'd ever sat on. Well he ignored my advice and bought one, and it turned out to be the perfect machine for what he wanted to use it for. Your operating environment, expectations for production, etc. are different in a lot of ways from what I work around every day, and the machine you're considering could be a perfect fit for your outfit. That Timbco Bargemonkey runs has laid a mountain (many mountains, actually) of wood down for him over the years. It's got a barsaw bunching head, not a processor. But as a base machine it seems pretty reliable. You know your operation, contracts, cash flow and mechanical abilities. If you are confident in all of those, I'd say go for it too👍
"You can't cut wood with a barsaw timbco"... 😄... yeah...
@Firewoodjoe (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24659) I'm in the same boat buddy, looking at better iron and risking the gamble. The one thing the fabtek 4 rollers have going for them is Crosstrac seems to support them and has the 2 roller conversion. I spoke to them and they seem like good people, a guy 3hrs west of me bought a used Timberpro combo from them and had only good things to say.
If I stay cutting wood I've got no choice but to find a decent 6 wheeler and a dangle head, I could be working and finished with this job right now not fighting the mud.
Thanks guys. If all this goes as planed then the next machine will have a larger cutting diameter. Which means it will most like be a dangle head. But! I have to hand cut for a H8HD and a 624 Waratah because the woods to big. They have about 6-8" larger cutting diameter than the Fabtek Head. My area seems to like dangle and fabtek style heads. Go north 1 hour and it's mostly track machines fixed head. Lots of cf18s and cf22s.
"You can't cut wood with a barsaw timbco"... 😄... yeah...
@Firewoodjoe (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24659) I'm in the same boat buddy, looking at better iron and risking the gamble. The one thing the fabtek 4 rollers have going for them is Crosstrac seems to support them and has the 2 roller conversion. I spoke to them and they seem like good people, a guy 3hrs west of me bought a used Timberpro combo from them and had only good things to say.
If I stay cutting wood I've got no choice but to find a decent 6 wheeler and a dangle head, I could be working and finished with this job right now not fighting the mud.
That'd be JP Skidmore making the stuff for the old 2000 series heads Crostrek is the dealer for them.
Quote from: barbender on August 07, 2021, 09:45:45 PM
Really, don't take my opinion too seriously. I mean that. My observation point is from a low hour machine I get paid to run by someone else. I remember one time on here an Appalachian logger was asking about old JD 450 crawler loaders. He was considering one for loading out trucks with big hardwood logs, apparently they had a huge lift capacity. My opinion was, my uncle had one and with a 6 way blade on it, it would've been a useful machine but with that front end loader I thought it was the slowest, most useless piece of iron I'd ever sat on. Well he ignored my advice and bought one, and it turned out to be the perfect machine for what he wanted to use it for. Your operating environment, expectations for production, etc. are different in a lot of ways from what I work around every day, and the machine you're considering could be a perfect fit for your outfit. That Timbco Bargemonkey runs has laid a mountain (many mountains, actually) of wood down for him over the years. It's got a barsaw bunching head, not a processor. But as a base machine it seems pretty reliable. You know your operation, contracts, cash flow and mechanical abilities. If you are confident in all of those, I'd say go for it too👍
The 415 and the 425/445 the only parts they share is a cab the rest of the machine is completely different.
This is more Valmet/Komatsu than a old timbco. Sisu engine and I believe all Komatsu undercarried. It's been ALL resealed some new hoses. Paperwork on engine 3-4 years ago. Newer undercarriage. All mechanics notes and manuals. Only thing I'm not to happy with now, and didn't notice until Friday, is the main boom has been welded and plated up where the jib boom pins on. I'm going to lay the boom down Monday and see what kind of a job was done. But some weld on a old machine will be enviable.
@Firewoodjoe (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24659)
The sisu was only put in the 415 the pumps are different then the big brothers same with the track frames.
If memory serves the 425 is a 250 sized track frame well the 445 had the 300 or cat 330 bolt on track frames.
Yeah I'm not comparing size. I'm comparing timbcos with cat undercarriage and Deere/Cummins engines. Like the 415b/c/d's
I have no personal experience with Sisu engines, but the Ponsse mechanics have a very low opinion of them.
I've heard there as good as any other. Google it and they have good things said about them. Also I've found, around here anyways, anyone that has to do with Ponsse at all has a low opinion on anything other than Ponsse. 😂 no offense to anyone. They are good machines but I see them get worked on also😁 and these are new and next to new. It's just how equipment is.
My 646 valmet says sisu logging America on the tag. They owned valmet for a while. The sisu motor was used in the rubber tired machines also. And there are some of them running in lobster boats up this way. I know of one that fished during the week and on race weekends he raced it and did pretty well. Pretty sure he said he turned it up another 1000rpm. The sisu marine distributor is in Farmington maine
If you have an interest in hot rod diesels.look up the maine lobster boat races on YouTube. I have been several times. It can get pretty wild. Years ago the 500 hp Mack v8 was the thing to beat now if not at least 1000hp or way more.
The Sisu motors are as good as any of the other non JD or Cummins diesels. They were used in a wide variety of applications with good success. I get parts for them from the "local" Agco dealer. I haven't run into any inherent problems with them. Just usual stuff like injectors, turbos, etc.
I ran a lot of hours in the Ponsses with Mercedes and put my fair share of turbos, injectors, wiring, etc in them. Had one chuck a rod thru the block, one burn 2 gallons of oil a day. They are good but far from perfect.
I'm not trying to plug for Ponsse or Mercedes, as I said I have zero personal experience with Sisu engines. I would say the Mercedes have generally been excellent for our operation. My boss would probably get them in his conventional equipment if he could.
Oh no doubt there good engines. I've ran them. Only complaint I had was in a truck the low end torque was not very good.
My complaint with the Mercedes is where do you get parts? Ponsse is the only place within 500 miles of here to get parts in any sort of reasonable time frame. And they aren't bashful on the pricing. Rebuild on a OM906 in an Ergo runs triple or more of say an 8.3 Cummins.
Sisu can get parts from Komatsu or Agco. Cat, Perkins, Yanmar, JD, or Cummins are even easier.
I stopped to help out some drivers ontop the climb at black mountain NC. A 2020 plastitruck with mercedes. under 100k and the fan hub let go, fan into radiator. Not the cheapest day. No other experience with electronic ones.
I've actually heard plenty of complaints about Mecedes truck engines. I've noticed that certain engines seem to find "happy places" where they do really well. When I worked on a paving crew, Cat 3116 engines were everywhere in the Cat paving equipment. They were as fine of an engine as you could ask for. However, Ponsse ran them for a few of their early years, and people hated them. I also heard a lot of bad about them in medium duty trucks🤷🏽♂️ Mercedes does well in Ponsse CTL equipment, that I've seen firsthand. Our company finally sold one Buffalo forwarder we had that had 30K hours, original engine and still healthy. My buddy's Ergo was estimated over 35K hours when his finally started using oil excessively and was replaced.
Our first Ponsse Ergo ate a turbo at 18k, and lifted/warped a head at 19k (needed complete rebuild). Or first Ponsse forwarder roached 3 injectors before 20k and blew a rod thru the block at like 24k. 2nd forwarder started using 2 gallons of oil a day at 15k hours turned out it cracked a piston. Did a complete rebuild on it only to have it burn to the ground a few K hours later.
Last week sent a 22k hour OM906LA from an Ergo to the machine shop and hauled a buddy's 30k hourJD 6068 there also. When I go pick them up I'll bet that Mercedes is at least 3x the bill.
Well maybe I am crazy but I think both the MB in the Ponsse and the Sissu are both fine engines. Our valmet has a Sissu and it ran just fine (need to get it started again and sell). I find that the freightliner folks have parts for the MB engines most of the time and that the others from Ponsse really are not that bad in terms of price and you are getting made in germany parts, no cheap chinese knock offs and like most things you get what you pay for (usually).
Quote from: Skeans1 on August 08, 2021, 09:27:24 AM
Quote from: BargeMonkey on August 08, 2021, 01:06:28 AM
"You can't cut wood with a barsaw timbco"... 😄... yeah...
@Firewoodjoe (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24659) I'm in the same boat buddy, looking at better iron and risking the gamble. The one thing the fabtek 4 rollers have going for them is Crosstrac seems to support them and has the 2 roller conversion. I spoke to them and they seem like good people, a guy 3hrs west of me bought a used Timberpro combo from them and had only good things to say.
If I stay cutting wood I've got no choice but to find a decent 6 wheeler and a dangle head, I could be working and finished with this job right now not fighting the mud.
That'd be JP Skidmore making the stuff for the old 2000 series heads Crostrek is the dealer for them and US Forestry is the distributor for them.
That's not entirely true anymore. Yes, JP Skidmore is producing parts for the four roller heads. US Forestry is no longer involved, as they merged with another dealer out of Laona. JP Skidmore is working with many dealers as well as directly with loggers. Crosstrac, CJ Logging Equipment, and LMS Equipment are just a few examples. They do not have a distributor.
Do these fabtek heads have float positions for when your delimbing?
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on August 09, 2021, 04:14:41 PM
Do these fabtek heads have float positions for when your delimbing?
Are we talking a floating knife function or a float for the head itself? They had floats for the knives but not for driving the head you did this normally with foot pedals some where singles and others had two.
Ok. Yeah I thought the knives did. I meant more for the head. So I'll
be harvesting out of buncher piles most times. Should I worry about making sure I twist the head as I swing to the various sort piles or will the hydraulics relive enough to not have the head lined up perfect with the tree? If you can understand what I'm asking lol
I've done a bunch of processing with my Ergo and picking from a pile. Hated every minute of it. Ponsse actually makes delimbing knives for picking from a pile. I think they are longer to reach further from the rollers.
The rollers are the problem. Even wide open they will sit on the adjacent trunks.
Hint- the buncher man you hate if you're in a skidder is your friend if you're in a processor. Messy bunches are good👍
At first I processed on the stump - then I bought my buncher and processed from piles. Like Gary said - the geometry of the knives isn't ideal. I learned to make ugly piles so they were easier to grab from.
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on August 09, 2021, 04:14:41 PM
Do these fabtek heads have float positions for when your delimbing?
On the Skidmore heads, you can enable float on the rotate while processing. The FabTeks / Cat heads do not have this function.
Well I own it. Ran it and all went well. The computer was a bit of a pain for me. The fabteks are pretty primitive but I hate elections. After that the machine was pretty simple. After what people said I figured I'd be getting out with a chainsaw. But I cut 3-4 cord per hour the day running it. But that's also aspen out of buncher piles. I'll post some pics next week.
I also bought a second mule this late winter. I'm trying to get it painted before I need it. 🤞
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34659/5AC8DB7E-9EDC-4872-B02F-E4289164B850.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1628903242)
Movin on up!
8)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34659/7AA6AE3D-B817-4A2F-88D3-371DBDD418C3.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1628981212)
Couldn't take it so I painted it today. I hate painting old equipment. Never turns out like I hope. But finish a few odds and ends then she goes to the woods to bring the other one home for some needed love.
That just went up $5k
You didn't paint it. You applied the Sinhider top coat. :D
Looks fantastic 👍
Like the pictures of the mule. But where's the other machine you bought?
Quote from: Southside on August 14, 2021, 10:39:00 PM
You didn't paint it. You applied the Sinhider top coat. :D
😂 yeah but except for a dented hood this mule is pretty nice.
Quote from: thecfarm on August 15, 2021, 05:48:23 AM
Like the pictures of the mule. But where's the other machine you bought?
On the job 1 1/2 hours away. I'll get some pictures tomorrow.
She looks good plus it's always nice to have good looking machines that are not beat to death cause lots of people will walk by you to the next logger cause they feel your machines reflect your work . Old beat up machines means your broke and they worry about getting paid .
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34659/2CD02F98-D271-4B4F-937A-6C86F1F4FD33.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1629146058)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34659/0C9E0201-5D6A-4436-9DDD-A34D63D22669.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1629146040)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34659/6F2FC0D7-730C-4D48-9939-9F078E85FA07.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1629146033)
nice.. congrats on the leap.
well.. the $64,000 question is, how much more production is it responsible for at the end of a day?
Quote from: mike_belben on August 16, 2021, 05:22:06 PM
nice.. congrats on the leap.
well.. the $64,000 question is, how much more production is it responsible for at the end of a day?
Well first of all. Where did you come up with that number lol and it needs to average 90 cord a week to make the same I make with a chainsaw. That's assuming it don't cost more than $1000 a month in break downs. It's already easier on fuel than I thought. Although I haven't ran it straight 8 hours yet. But my buncher uses twice the fuel that timbco does. I know that already. And yes I know it will cost more at times. But it should produce a lot more than 90 cord too.
Thank you!!
And hopefully at the end of the day a little easier on your back, and it's gotta be safer than a chainsaw. Congrats.
It was from a tv game show before our time.
Quote from: ehp on August 16, 2021, 12:41:14 PM
She looks good plus it's always nice to have good looking machines that are not beat to death cause lots of people will walk by you to the next logger cause they feel your machines reflect your work . Old beat up machines means your broke and they worry about getting paid .
I'm starting to believe that very thing myself.
Joe the mule looks good. Hate painting machines as well but it do look good.
Quote from: B.C.C. Lapp on August 17, 2021, 04:10:17 PM
Quote from: ehp on August 16, 2021, 12:41:14 PM
She looks good plus it's always nice to have good looking machines that are not beat to death cause lots of people will walk by you to the next logger cause they feel your machines reflect your work . Old beat up machines means your broke and they worry about getting paid .
I'm starting to believe that very thing myself.
Joe the mule looks good. Hate painting machines as well but it do look good.
Thanks. I'm going to try and get all my equipment painted by next winter. Like a year from now lol I Even made new decals for it and touched up a few more things. I'll post a finished pic latter. I had a good day in the harvester. No problems. About 20 cord was skidded and I'm ahead of him by 5 cord I'm guessing. Not bad for the first full day running one! If anyone can help how tight is the measuring wheel tension supposed to be. This really bounces and looses count.
Two mules a buncher and a timbco? Man you sure are kicking ash!! Go back and read some of your old posts for an instant ego/morale boost! 8)
😂 I'm just trying to get somewhere and not kill myself doing it. I'm still not convinced on the harvester. I can already see a BIG dangle head would be better for me. But gotta start somewhere.
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on August 17, 2021, 05:56:47 PM
Quote from: B.C.C. Lapp on August 17, 2021, 04:10:17 PM
Quote from: ehp on August 16, 2021, 12:41:14 PM
She looks good plus it's always nice to have good looking machines that are not beat to death cause lots of people will walk by you to the next logger cause they feel your machines reflect your work . Old beat up machines means your broke and they worry about getting paid .
I'm starting to believe that very thing myself.
Joe the mule looks good. Hate painting machines as well but it do look good.
Thanks. I'm going to try and get all my equipment painted by next winter. Like a year from now lol I Even made new decals for it and touched up a few more things. I'll post a finished pic latter. I had a good day in the harvester. No problems. About 20 cord was skidded and I'm ahead of him by 5 cord I'm guessing. Not bad for the first full day running one! If anyone can help how tight is the measuring wheel tension supposed to be. This really bounces and looses count.
Tension is set with the spring and cup assembly attached to the rod off the measuring wheel arm. If it's bouncing a lot I'd almost bet the spring is broke or the rod is worn out.
X2 on the spring. It'll likely come out in three or more pieces. Buy an extra spring too, especially if you are running it in bumpy wood.
Maybe you've already done this: when you get to a crotch, drop it, spin head, grab it and feed it in reverse till cut on large end is even with tip of stationary knife, zero measure, then roll in reverse. It'll be negative numbers. Like -14" for an 8' log, -38" for a 10' log, etc. You'll have to do the math as I don't remember the correct numbers.
Hopefully this makes sense as I found it a most useful option.
Thanks. I looked at the spring assembly and it's red. So I'm assuming they replaced it(from a cat). I'm wondering if it needs more washers.
Too many washers and you'll bend that rod if you're lucky if you're not so lucky you'll bend the pin that holds the rod to the measuring wheel arm. If you haven't fully pulled the spring out of the cup you won't be able to tell if it's broke or not but from what you're describing that's what the issue is.
Keep a spare spring or two on hand. Rough wood and cold temps those springs take a beating.
Quote from: Firewoodjoe on August 17, 2021, 08:14:01 PM
😂 I'm just trying to get somewhere and not kill myself doing it. I'm still not convinced on the harvester. I can already see a BIG dangle head would be better for me. But gotta start somewhere.
Just beware of "cab flab" lol.
For sure!
Looks like you got a good machine. Hours aren't everything especially if pumps etc. Have already been done. The forwarder I run has 12k hrs and it's the most reliable machine they own.
Goodluck with it. Once you get more hours in the seat there will be no competion with handchopping
Spring wasn't broke. Needed more washers. Definitely helped. I'm thinking the dealer fixed a few things and it hasn't been ran to see what needs fine tuned. Yes the machine is doing good. 20 cord a day is pretty easy for me so far. And come to find out the machine has unknown hours. The previous owner estimated. The meter says 10,000 but I now that's not right. Seems to be burning somewhere between 3.5 to 4 gallons and hour of fuel. I'm happy so far.
You got a lowboy or are you hiring your moves?
Mill hauls the heavy machines. Or I hire it done. I'd like to have a truck but with the insurance cost it's not worth it just to haul iron.
Yeah thats a good deal. The truck has become a never ending compliance and insurance disaster.