Yesterday I cut down, limbed , and bucked about 2500 bf of pine logs. Sweated more than I have in a long time. Drank a bunch of water and several Gatorades to try to rehydrate last night. Apparently it wasn't enough because today after I sawed for about 6 hours I was done. I made it home and when I got out of the truck I got the worst leg cramps I ever had. I was immobile for at least 30 minutes. I couldn't even walk up the 3 steps onto the porch to get in the house. Wife brought out some potassium pills and a bottle of pedialite. I felt pretty bad for a couple of hours, but several bottles of water and a Gatorade later, I'm starting to feel better. Could have been much worse, but bad enough. I think ill take it easy tomorrow and push the rest of this job off until next week.
When I was in the building business, always enjoyed having a big day. The next day was another story, usually had trouble lifting my hammer before noon, after one of those really fun days.
It's been stupid hot and OMG humid. Take it easy for sure. I hate August.
Working on my cabin up at 5,600' elevation and in the heat (90's), I make it a habit to drink about 4 or 5 quarts of water. Yet, I would still get leg cramps in my calves and, on occasion, my thighs were I couldn't walk and extreme pain. Tried calcium (Tums) and pickle juice but no relief. I don't cook with salt but I started eating 2 or 3 snack bags of popcorn or chips at lunch and a couple more at dinner (when working hard up there) and no more cramps! Not even a hint of a cramp.
It was a sweat producing day. I had big plans when I got home, the porch and multiple glasses of ice tea won out.
Saltines and pickle juice.
Few months ago i guess, woke up thrashing around in agony for my first simultaneous double hamstring cramp.
Was all i could manage not to shove both heels up my butt cuz thats where it felt like they were headed. Could not straighten either one.
Man that was scary. Was panting like a sprint yet hadnt moved a step! I guess i should probably expect to need a colonoscopy soon too just to embrace middle age.
I will get those Mike, nerve related from getting busted up, no rhyme or reason, they drop me to the ground. Just focus on getting through it, they won't kill you even though it feels like they will. They do pass, just get through the next second and repeat. Eventually they let go.
its only happened that bad once and did kinda feel like "okay just kill me now.. I cant wait"
i got real in tune with how my legs are feeling since. Im a lot more proactive with any leg wierdness now.
Water, liquids or something is very important. And working slow and taking breaks are too. I know I don't get the heat you do, but I can and do work in the heat we have here. Work slow helps a lot.
There was no "almost', you did overdo it and sounds like you almost went over the edge. Believe it or not Tums will help with those leg cramps big time. Chew up 3 or 4 when you 'think' it may be coming on. I keep a bottle by the bed since Doc recommended them 2 years ago and it made my issues go away. The humidity here has been a killer these last few weeks. You've got to take care of yourself first.
I am not a big gator aide fan, in fact I really don't like the stuff at all, but on those really heavy days a bottle or two through the day with water the rest of the time seems to make a big difference also in my recovery time.
My go to for preventing and during a cramp is V8 juice. I drink one every day at lunch and if you feel the cramps coming on, go chug a couple of cans right quick.
You have got to stay ahead of the dehydration. Drinking a gallon of water at the end of the day isn't going to help. You need to take in plenty of fluids during the day, before you feel the need.
When I was much younger, I was sent to Florida for a military tech school. One weekend I went on a 200 mile bicycle ride. Five miles from being done, I quit sweating. Luckily, I realized it and stopped, took a long break in air-conditioning and rehydrated. I did the exact same ride the next week, same weather conditions, but I stopped every hour for liquids and had no issues.
If you once go down with heat exhaustion, it can take years to fully recover.
Doug in SW IA
Quote from: dougtrr2 on August 22, 2021, 07:36:32 AM
If you once go down with heat exhaustion, it can take years to fully recover.
Very true.
It hit me in my twenties while I was mowing grass. I thought I was a though guy. By that time the medical society had demonized salt tablets which my coaches made us take for years. That particular day, I failed to drink enough water, quit sweating and got severely hot and sick. Took me over ten years to be able to sweat again and tolerate heat again,
Just a medical question that I wonder about and I guess know what the answer would be.
@doctorb (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10176) @doc henderson (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=41041)
We all get muscle cramps in our extremities. The heart is a muscle, so is it subject to muscle cramps? smiley_headscratch
When I have a muscle cramp in my calf, just grab my toes and pull, usually can pull it right out of a cramp. Not always, but most times. Also have just stepped down on my toes to force things back, and it goes away.
all muscle needs energy to reset, and electrolytes to run the system. you need sodium and potassium. calcium can relax muscle. it is used to stabilize the heart muscle. Magnesium can stop certain arrhythmias like tor sod de points. the body is 98% water. so any loss that is not replaced can change the chemistry of the whole mechanism. your body regulates the water and electrolyte abnormalities, to an extent, but not at the extremes. being conditioned for work in heat, is helpful as well. your body can learn to manage the fluid and electrolytes and the muscle becomes more efficient at working if done on a regular basis. when we are young, we can get conditioned to work, and amaze even ourselves. the hard part is recognizing when we are old and deconditioned. It was quite a lesson to show up first day to a job. go home tired and sunburnt. could barely go the next day, but by the end of the summer, we could go to work early due to heat. get off early, and go play tennis in the mid afternoon. when a muscle contracts, it is the sugar or energy that releases the contracted fiber, for the next pull. with no energy to reset, the muscle stays contracted. the electrolytes actually go through channels to cause the contraction. think electric current in a nerve impulse (chemical)
if the electrolytes are off, it can be from losses of salt or water. both will change the concentrations. there is a range that will work. calcium will help relax/stabilize muscle cells, not matter the actual abnormality. we use water to cool ourselves, so in the heat, things can get crazy. If you are working hard, you need salt and water. as well as sugar to pay the debt to reset a muscle fiber. most foods are good in moderation. the problem with all forms of nutrition, is consuming in excess of what we need. not as many people do physical work, and need less calories, despite having more than they need.
smiley_dizzy whiteflag_smiley
heart muscle is a bit different. it is designed to work a little all the time. It can fibrillate if it does not get enough energy from the blood supply relative to the work it is doing. fast heart rate or high blood pressure makes it work harder. the pain you feel when the cells are not getting enough supply of calories and oxygen is angina. if cells die as a result, that is a myocardial infarction, or heart attack. major electrolyte abnormalities cause arrhythmias like v tach. the qrs changes as potassium level go up, till the heart stops.
That sorta kinda 'splains what I was wondering, especially about the "little all of the time" bit. Thanks. :)
Skeletal muscle is different than cardiac muscle, and both are different than the smooth muscle in your gut. Skeletal muscle, the stuff that can cramp, works at very high tension and expansion parameters. While it has endurance, it's function is to perform at a very high level for a period of time. A relatively short period of time.
Cardiac muscle contraction is involuntary, and is designed to work constantly over your lifetime. While you can make your heart work very hard, it has to work 24/7 as well.
Lots of electrolyte issue and even some unknowns with regard to skeletal muscle cramping. No such thing for cardiac muscle. They are different animals.
I, too, am not fond of the taste of Gatorade and have found that drinking a quart of an electrolyte drink (like PowerAde Zero) the night before working outside on a hot day seems to significantly reduce the effects of working in the heat. Still drink water or other fluids when working but loading the electrolytes in my system has worked pretty well.
Thank You doc henderson and doctorb for your easily understood explanations.
I thought that I was having an 'event' but only needed to loosen a button. :D
When I was young I could go between meals with out water. I have learned that you have to replace the water faster than you loose it. The part I don't understand is that I have to drink more in cold weather. Another thing is that I don't notice the taste of [good] water unless I am working really hard and not drinking any and then it tastes so good. The leg cramps come during the night if I have not drank enough. Very, very painful.
you can sweat, but you also loose water in other ways. called insensible losses. you make urine, and have moisture in stool. but you also sweat and loose water in your breath. you notice it in the winter more, as you can see the condensation. but the air is also dryer. you warm each breath up to body temp, and humidify it to 100% at body temp. if you are low on water, you kidneys can conserve but to do this it must concentrate things like waste and electrolytes. this can be hard if you are on medications for blood pressure as an example. this can be why as you dehydrate, your sweat may smell strong. you also may stop sweating and overheat, and have weakness and confusion from this. It is like running an old truck, low on water in the radiator, and low on oil in the crankcase. It may fail.
I have been working my butt off for the last 2 years.
After the new year I got a new crew which wants to work.
This summer has been grhumidity eat but my knee pain has kicked up 3 notches . The last month I have slept about 2 hours a night on a good night. The humidy kicked up this week and im a mess. Made it working till yesterday. I got in last night feeling not so good.
I'm taking today off.
I'm going to have to figure out how to live with the pain better.
I decided I'm not going to be able to have my knees replaced ever.
One good thing when I'm sawing I don't feel a thing :)
I always seem to be fighting dehydration if I'm not careful. It wasn't until the past few years I realized it was related to the headaches and leg cramps I'd sometimes get since my early 20's. I'd suffered from it repeatedly and never realized the root cause until maybe 5 years ago.
Now I try to stay very aware of it. Leg cramps during the night or a light headache are usually my first warning signs that I need to start drinking a lot more water. And not just a glass or two but consistently drinking more over the next couple days. If I let it get away from me the headaches get worse and I start to feel lethargic and sick with no motivation whatsoever. The funny thing is that I never feel thirsty and drinking something is almost the last thing I want to do. It often takes a couple days to get back to normal despite drinking lots of liquids.
Going into dehydration also seems to occur over a longer period of time for me. It never happens after a strenuous day of not drinking enough but seems to creep up on me over a period of days with normal activity when I let my water intake slack off. In my mind there's a reservoir of water that's slowly depleted until it hits a level where I'm affected and it then takes a lot of time and water to get that reservoir built back up, a lot more than it takes to simply maintain the level once full.
My dad recently had his first bout of dehydration a couple months ago and he was down and out for over a week. Took him a few days to go to the doctor and realize that was the problem and a few more days of drinking like a fish to get back to normal.
I find the skin pinch test to be effective for me. For me a little headache and skin slow to snap back means it's time to start drinking. When my dad did the pinch test during his dehydration the ridge remained almost indefinitely after releasing, I've never had it that bad. https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003281.htm (https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003281.htm)
Alan
weigh in am and pm and compare, for total body water. if you eat and drink you should maintain or gain. if you see you loose 3 pounds overnight, then you were catching up. dark foamy urine, hard poop, am dry mouth, need more water.
I drink Gatorade by the gallons, and lots of water, when I have to work on those hot days. Today is just over 70, yesterday was only about 65. I had forgotten how much I enjoy sawing, because it sucks so bad when it is 90! I worked for many years on an asphalt crew. So take the ambient summer temp, and then figure standing in or around 200°+ hot mix. It is not pleasant. I sweat very, very heavily besides, and it was almost impossible to take in enough fluids a lot of days. All that said, I'm sure a lot of t could just be I am getting older, but I sometimes wonder if I lost some of my ability to tolerate heat doing that for a living for so long. I just can't stand it anymore.
I'm a 71 year old who mills by myself, so hard work on a hot day brings with it the ongoing challenge of dehydration and leg cramps. I drank lots of Gatorade but it still didn't solve the problem. However, a 2019 article on the value of chocolate milk changed my drinking habits and led to a significant reduction in cramping, dizziness, and such. Now when I head to the mill, I bring along a couple (or more) quarts of chocolate milk.
A systematic review article in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition in 2019 concluded that "CM [chocolate milk] either provides similar or superior results on recovery indices compared to other recovery drinks and thus represents an alternative and often economic replacement." If you use this as an index article and know how to search medical literature, you can read subsequent publications which align with these conclusions.
It's been some years since I retired but I still enjoy reading medical journals. It pays off!
Here is the citation and URL:
Amiri, M., Ghiasvand, R., Kaviani, M. et al. Chocolate milk for recovery from exercise: a systematic review and meta-analysis of controlled clinical trials. Eur J Clin Nutr 73, 835–849 (2019).
Chocolate milk for recovery from exercise: a systematic review and meta-analysis of controlled clinical trials | European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (https://doi.org/10.1038/s41430-018-0187-x)
Patrick,
You are lucky I love and respect you or I'd do like the rest of the FF gang and offer another home remedy like the rest. There are several here that if they had posted such a comment/question I would have immediately espoused the therapeutic/curative and long term medical value of a couple of the 6 oz 6 packs of prune juice. I won't do that to you, however. Stay safe and don't over-do it for a while.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on August 22, 2021, 07:15:08 PM
Patrick,
You are lucky I love and respect you or I'd do like the rest of the FF gang and offer another home remedy like the rest. There are several here that if they had posted such a comment/question I would have immediately espoused the therapeutic/curative and long term medical value of a couple of the 6 oz 6 packs of prune juice. I won't do that to you, however. Stay safe and don't over-do it for a while.
🤣🤣🤣
bud light counts for electrolytes right?
Quote from: mike_belben on August 22, 2021, 09:25:52 PM
bud light counts for electrolytes right?
Sure would make things simpler.
GatorAde gives me indigestion so I substitute Propel flavored water and try to use common sense and a certain amount of laziness to stay hydrated. :)
Quote from: mike_belben on August 22, 2021, 09:25:52 PM
bud light counts for electrolytes right?
Bud light doesn't count for anything. :D
bud light (alcohol) will impair your antidiuretic hormone and you will dehydrate. :) eat plenty of salt on your food, even salt substitute (KCL instead of NaCL) and take some tums, and a little milk of magnesia (too much will give you diarrhea 8)) and you got good electrolyte supplementation. :D :D :D. plenty of water. or eat some potato chips for a snack or pickles (salty stuff)
I'll second that chocolate milk recommendation. I'll go through almost a litre (1/4 gallon) a night when it's real hot and humid. I started it after getting heat exhaustion while screwing down a steel roof on a pig barn (rest of the guys went to the beer store while I went to Macs).
It's been said before and I'll say it again, be careful out there when it gets hot and humid. Lots of water and salt help and so does avoiding caffeine.