Im curious for others inputs on this matter as I just haven't completed a lot of offsite jobs and was caught a little off guard by this.
Backstory- I setup a job for sawing for an older gentleman who had a lot of pine logs and was frustrated with the pricing of 2x4s for his shed building business. As most know sawing dimensional lumber especially 2x4s is hard to turn profits on just due to the amount of time and sawing required for smaller dimensions. Now when I first quoted him I gave him a price per hour as I just wasn't sure how productive on sawing what was to equate out to around 2000 2x4s at 7' would be. I run a LT40S so I can crank stuff out but being off site without my pipeline and small boards wasn't sure. The person was very interesting to talk to and we hit it off well and job was delayed for a few factors outside of eithers control by about a month. When it came time to saw it I wanted to make sure he got his $monies worth out of the job as being elderly income would be lower and pandemic hit everyone hard. So I changed it to a fixed board foot charge so he understood what the job would cost him without variables and so I'd eat a little bit of the overhead on time and bladewear on sawing out dimensional. I also gave $25 discount on setup fee and charged him bf on stickers vs per sticker which equaled out to about $150 discount and he signed contract with pricing clearly marked and simplified at a single charge vs different charge for dimensional lumber vs planks or boards on boardfeet, with the understanding that he was supplying front end loader. Now he also had an employee of his run the loader and help unload lumber off sawmill (he was away in surgery that week)
4 days of sawing later everything seemed fine loaded up and was paid and headed out,
But 3 weeks later I get a call from him now that he is recovered from his surgery, and as he said he was disappointed in how I charged him, and said that because I was charging him by board feet it would have cost him the same thing if he had payed his employee to help me or not, which is true and I understand his point there. But he was now expecting that I give him a discount of what I assume to be what he paid his employee (who was stellar) for assisting me and hinting at that I took advantage of him as he was gone for surgery on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th day of sawing.
My understanding of the situation was that we agreed on a pricepoint, I gave him several voluntary discounts on charge style, and other things trying to help him out, and if he didnt have employee or loader he would have been charged for my providing a FEL, and paid me $45 an hour to move logs, clean them up, and cut them down to length. And he is asking me to give him a discount well after services have been rendered and pricing was clearly stated. I do understand where he is coming from on his view of it. But I don't really agree that I should eat another loss for what would have cost him more if I just simply did business with no personality behind it. Thoughts? Views or differing opinions? Is it common to give discounts to customers who supply help for others who do portable sawing over at a fixed location?
My suggestion, for what it is worth.
Tell him you will take that into consideration on the NEXT job. This one is done and in the books.
Your mistake was feeling sorry for an "old" man, and likely had/has more money than you realize. And now looking for more. Some are not bashful badgering for a discount. But up to you..
I agree completely with beenthere. I would offer him a discount on the next job but this one is already said and done and he agreed to it before you started. But I can guarantee you he would not be very high on my repeat customer list.
Your customer may need to hire his sawmill work, but he does his own chiseling. Sell your services to make your living, not the customers living.
Nope, I'd stick to the deal. Figure up what it would've cost by the hour, I bet it is more than what you charged him. Then ask if he would line to go with that price?
Lets see if I got this right?
He agreed to supply the loader and operator and was unable to do it himself so he got his employee to cover for him.
If that is correct I'm having trouble seeing the issue.
If it was me I'd charge him whichever was cheaper for him - bf or hourly rate. It sounds like they are the same. I'd tell him the same thing.
I've only had one customer try to squeeze me and I resented it greatly as I had gone overboard to provide the best service at the best price I could. She called the other day wanting me to drop everything and do some more work for her. I was too busy and may be the next time too.
The job has been completed and paid for as agreed. If the old chiseler calls again you are booked up for the foreseeable future. You are a business man, not a charitable organization. Be fair but be firm.
Two broad schools of thought when it comes to running a small sawmilling enterprise:
I'm small so I have to be cheaper than the box store, or
I'm small so I have to be better than the box store.
I give people discounts all the time, but it's always after the fact. The bill will lay out all the fees and charges I earnt or the full cost of goods... then if I feel like it I'll toss in a discount for whatever reason.
Seems like you started out with how can I provide you more for less, and the guy wants to see how far he can push it. Can't blame him for that, just like he can't blame you for refusing.
Ha. He's "disappointed" in you....you should say you are "disappointed" in him trying to backslide on a done deal. Are you also supposed to give him a further discount because gas prices have gone up and he didn't plan on that? You did your homework, both parties agreed, that's ball game as far as I'm concerned.
A deal is a deal. His problems are not your problems.
Any negotiations should happen on the next deal, not a done deal. I don't think I would blacklist him, but for customers such as this, I always put a note that shows up on their caller ID when they call again to remind me of previous issues.
Sometimes the hardest answer to give a customer is "No"
Offer and acceptance is a contract.
I couldn't follow your description, didn't try very hard. Make it short and simple so there is no confusion, never change once you begin, I thought this was an hourly, if it is, that is what it is, never change gears.
Never change the contract. There was an offer for a price. If he accepted the offer then it has been put to bed.
A friend picked up lumber we had dug out for him the other week, price had already been agreed to. He took it home, looked online and found a cheaper price and wanted some money back. Absolutely not, I will take that price list under advisement. Once there has been offer and acceptance that deal is already done even if execution and payment is months away. That door swings both ways.
I agree with everything said above. He's way too late, and he is way over the line in what he is asking. Try this, tell him you will take a look at all the billing, then write up another bill which includes the time you would have spent doing all the log prep and handling work while the mill sat idling. Be dead fair with that number. Then show him what he would have paid if you supplied the loader and spent all that time. Ask him which bill he wants to pay. Basically he is trying to get a bunch of your time for free and he needs to understand that. It might also help to understand how much discount was already included in your regular bill, so add that up for him too. Sounds like a one time customer either way. Stand your ground on this one. I had a similar incident with an elderly man who agreed to sell me a trailer at an agreed upon price. He didn't want a deposit, we just needed paperwork to arrive in the mail. He called me a week later and basically said he needed to get $1,000 bucks more because he had a higher offer. I said we had a handshake agreement, he said he thought I was taking advantage of him, I said 'sell it to the other guy at the higher price and be happy', then I walked away from it. Found out a week later there was no 'other guy'. He was just trying to jack me up. He still has the trailer.
Take the high road, but stand your ground.
Probably has more money than you. And that is how he has more money than you.
If you spend one more minute trying to appease or explain to this customer why you did what you did, then you just give him more wiggle room to believe that maybe he is right and you may be wrong.
Drop it like a rock, as many have already said and are backing you up.
As said, its a done deal and do an itemized expense list as to your hourly rate which was discussed prior to his agreement on by the bf price and you not not providing the handling equipment, when the price ends up being much high, do a counter offer for the additional cost he could have paid at onset of the first deal.
Not clear to me what was the helper situation agreed to. Seems like you agreed to his claim that the cost would have been the same with or without his helper. That suggests that the helper or not wasnt clear.
What does your written agreement say about whether the cost includes him providing a helper or not? If it was agreed that the cost was the cost with him helping, and then he substituted an employee for himself, he's got no complaint.
And if you agreed to do the job at a cost without his providing help, and it ends up that help was provided, the agreement doesnt cover what should happen.
Best to have an agreement you can just look back to that covers whatever happens, if possible.
I didn't follow all of the details but a deal is a deal and a done deal is a done deal. No negotiating "next time" because there would not be a "next time". If you saw for him again, he will get to you at pay up time.
Not related to this customer situation but I did not follow your concerns about the profitability of sawing 2X4's and/or other framing lumber?? All of my framing lumber is sawed at the bf rate.
I'm with Mr BT, Yellowhammer and Mr Lynn.
I sold a snowblower, got paid and was ready to deliver. Customer called to say he wanted his money back, the household cfo said no. A few days later he came back wanting the machine but the price had gone up. ;D We think he found the same model on sale somewhere else but they were sold out when he got there. He complained but we said no, he took it.
I hope I was clear but to be sure I'd just make sure he was clear that any changes in pricing after you initially agreed was to his benefit and be able to show him that.
All negotiations have to be done before the blade enters the wood - not after.
As others have mentioned, it is okay to offer discounts after the fact for special, deserving customers. Some customers are just special and go out of their way to make you feel like family or a friend while with others it is just a business association. The business customer deserves fair and professional service. The other deserves more when you can provide it.
Sawguy,
I'm confused. If he had paid and a refund was not given, how could the price go up? Did you incur some extra cost causing a price change?
We refunded his money and put the machine back on the floor. He returned with a bit of an attitude.
Thanks for the input everyone, and sorry if the description was a little confusing, often its hard to see if you are the badguy so wanted to include details that could point to either party in event other people thought I was in the wrong to learn from it and adjust.
On price changes- He was very clear on understanding it, we probably talked about it in detail and spreadsheet/contract 5 times honestly, he was someone who wanted to know as much as possible down to penny on what it was costing him etc. The shift occurred after a few weeks of initial quote, as the first time I quoted him at hourly rate, he delayed for 2.5-3 weeks to get more logs to avoid a 2nd setup fee, and when he went to have me do the logs I had just had a dog attack that left a bicep in a sling which took several weeks to heal from. So on week 3 in my call I told him I'd be willing to change to a boardfoot pricing so that he could have a exact cost per 2x4 so he knew what he would be spending vs store bought to give him some rest of mind as he was worried about production per hour.
On helper he actually delayed me coming there for 2 additional weeks to have his employee there, as the guy was on vacation. I had made it clear that I could/normally do it on my own as I wasn't particularly busy that week and due to hospital bills I'd rather work an extra day and make same money, then pay someone else and get out of there faster.
In my mind he had a complete understanding of cost, and was given best service I could manage and was left with exactly what he wanted, at the cost he agreed to. His 2nd man was extremely good and very much appreciated, but his decision to supply help doesn't change the value of the work. In my mind its similar to saying you did everything I asked and more, but its not good enough. The contract was as simple and straight forward as they get, and 3 weeks later he tells me that hes disappointed that I charged him exactly what both parties agreed to, and signed before the sawmill was even disconnected from the truck. But I do understand that he could have had it down for less cash by not supplying help, but that was his choice not mine. He could have hired the guy with the lt28 down the road at $70 an hour and probably half to 3rd of my production rate.
Quote from: beenthere on September 02, 2021, 05:40:39 PM
If you spend one more minute trying to appease or explain to this customer why you did what you did, then you just give him more wiggle room to believe that maybe he is right and you may be wrong.
Drop it like a rock, as many have already said and are backing you up.
Once he figured out that while I was sorry that he was upset, but that I wasn't willing to just write him a check he had some choice words about my conscience etc and hung up so he didnt like the no wiggle room :D
Quote from: longtime lurker on September 02, 2021, 04:42:35 PM
Two broad schools of thought when it comes to running a small sawmilling enterprise:
I'm small so I have to be cheaper than the box store, or
I'm small so I have to be better than the box store.
I give people discounts all the time, but it's always after the fact. The bill will lay out all the fees and charges I earnt or the full cost of goods... then if I feel like it I'll toss in a discount for whatever reason.
Seems like you started out with how can I provide you more for less, and the guy wants to see how far he can push it. Can't blame him for that, just like he can't blame you for refusing.
Yeah I've def leaned into the better then store bought, and moved away from cheaper as on some things I simply cant do them cheaper, I'd rather not work, then work and lose money trying to do it as cheap as what you get from a large sawmill buying by the semi load
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on September 02, 2021, 05:26:30 PM
I agree with everything said above. He's way too late, and he is way over the line in what he is asking. Try this, tell him you will take a look at all the billing, then write up another bill which includes the time you would have spent doing all the log prep and handling work while the mill sat idling. Be dead fair with that number. Then show him what he would have paid if you supplied the loader and spent all that time. Ask him which bill he wants to pay. Basically he is trying to get a bunch of your time for free and he needs to understand that. It might also help to understand how much discount was already included in your regular bill, so add that up for him too. Sounds like a one time customer either way. Stand your ground on this one. I had a similar incident with an elderly man who agreed to sell me a trailer at an agreed upon price. He didn't want a deposit, we just needed paperwork to arrive in the mail. He called me a week later and basically said he needed to get $1,000 bucks more because he had a higher offer. I said we had a handshake agreement, he said he thought I was taking advantage of him, I said 'sell it to the other guy at the higher price and be happy', then I walked away from it. Found out a week later there was no 'other guy'. He was just trying to jack me up. He still has the trailer.
Take the high road, but stand your ground.
I may try doing this, I tried to explain it over the phone but was really a waste of time as he wasn't calling to discuss or understand but simply to get a check written to him. I was thinking like if I didnt do the several discounts and hauled a loader over there and also cleaned up/cut to length logs you'd probably have close to another thousand added to that bill, vs the 2-300 you probably paid the 2nd guy depending on hourly rate. But I didn't want to be rude or inconsiderate as some people may not be able to fully see/understand what the big picture is compared to what they think they are entitled to
Water off a duck's back. There's people like that out there, just put him on your "blocked" list on your phone and be done with it.
You did the job, you got paid, he got mad, he tried to play you, you win, he loses. Game over.
Sawguy,
Thanks for the clarification. I absolutely agree. Once the money was refunded the deal was done and and any future sales were up for renegotiation by both parties and if it cost him more, so be it. I have often paid more because I waited too long for a better deal but that was my choice and not anybody else's fault. Trying to renegotiate after the fact is an absolute no-no.
This is why I only charge by the hour and stick to it. I got sucked into doing it by the board foot a couple times and I found out quick that most people that badger you to do it by the board foot have odd requests or inadequate "logs".
By only charging hourly I know that at the end of the day my costs and profit are covered and I'm not losing money. Are there jobs that I could have made more by the foot? Absolutely
But those customers are extatic at the end of the job and I'm happy because I made a fare livable wage.
Why should you lose money to save someone else money?
A contract is a contract. No backsies
That has to be a frustrating situation, especially when you're doing everything you can to try and help him and he is still ungrateful. Been there, done that.
I always try to thoughtfully address all legitimate concerns in any business dealing, as I want to treat people fairly and my name is important to me. However, the folks that are always conniving, looking for an angle to get you work for them for free I have no time for at all. Once someone tries to change a deal after the fact, I will not deal with them again. A few bucks is more important to them then their integrity, run away.
Quote from: YellowHammer on September 02, 2021, 09:10:04 PM
Water off a duck's back. There's people like that out there, just put him on your "blocked" list on your phone and be done with it.
You did the job, you got paid, he got mad, he tried to play you, you win, he loses. Game over.
I don't know, personally I prefer some oil and gravy on a ducks back with some nice cushioning of potatoes to catch any falling off its back :D :D
I'm 55 years old , self employed at 18.
It took me to age 35 to learn that you will never make some customers happy .
When I realized that , some times it's better to walk away.
Let the next guy deal with them.
I have folks try to ask for a discount if they buy x amount.
I say nope.
Your cost are still the same.
If he agreed in advance and you have the signed contract, then he has no leg to stand on. Chalk it up to experience and move on.
Some customers believe that everything is negotiable even after the fact. Those types are never satisfied unless they believe they get the better of someone. I don't play that game.
I once had a customer attempt to withhold payment after the job was done because he thought the price was too high (his wife was the one who thought it too high). We had an agreed upon rate in advance that the wife apparently didn't fully appreciate. I called my buddy to come with my big trailer in front of the customer and his wife. The customer asked why. I told him I was taking my payment in lumber. He and the wife went in the house for a few minutes and he came back with payment. The lumber was cut for a project the wife wanted done. :D I am booked every time he calls for a repeat. I don't play that game.
A brickmason buddy of mine had a neat trick. He would place a crowbar and a rope tied to it right at the worksite in plain view. He required payment every week.
When someone invariably asked why he had a rope tied to a crowbar, he would tell people that if he didn't get paid on time, in the correct amount, he would drop the crowbar with the attached rope down the backside of the brick he had put up that week, tie the other end of the rope to his truck, then drive off and pull the brick over, and never come back. :D :D :D
I don't know if he ever did it, but he talks like he did a time or two.
Everyone I ever met that worked selling direct to the public has stories similar to these or worse. That's why years ago I made the decision that that I wouldn't work retail again. I'd rather work shovel fresh dung than put up with that nonsense again. I feel for those who continue to do that kind of work and try to be nice to them when I deal with them.
Got a repeat guy that always asks for a discount. First time it was can you deduct the sales tax. Answered no. Last week I had a very productive day with him, and one line item on the bill was a slight surcharge for a number of short length logs, so I put another line item deducting that surcharge. Now I'm sort of wishing I hadn't. Got some precedent started.
I'm thinking next time I'll add a mandatory gratuity and then deduct that with a separate line item. Tell him that's the discount.
I'm not much for haggling but if I think the price of something is negotiable I will say " You know I won't be offended if you charge me less" it usually gets a chuckle and often a lower price, on the other hand if I am the seller and someone asks me for a lower price on something that I do not want to lower my reply to "will you take less" is "no but I am willing to take more".
This thread brings to mind a Baptist Minister I've sawed for. A nice guy, but as his brother refers to him 'Preacher Cheapskate'. The first time I sawed for him, he was extremely picky and tossed many 'questionable boards' into the slab pile. After his 'good' pile of lumber was scaled and payed for, he proceeded to load up all the stuff he had tossed aside, that in his words would not work for his projects.
After that first time I only scaled his lumber after it was loaded and bound down and ready to leave. For some odd reason that ended his heavy handed sorting. :D
I would not let him get away with that! But that's just me.
Quote from: chet on September 03, 2021, 11:44:13 AM
This thread brings to mind a Baptist Minister I've sawed for. A nice guy, but as his brother refers to him 'Preacher Cheapskate'. The first time I sawed for him, he was extremely picky and tossed many 'questionable boards' into the slab pile. After his 'good' pile of lumber was scaled and payed for, he proceeded to load up all the stuff he had tossed aside, that in his words would not work for his projects.
After that first time I only scaled his lumber after it was loaded and bound down and ready to leave. For some odd reason that ended his heavy handed sorting. :D
When I cut a piece of lumber, I scale it, and right it down on my clipboard as a done piece. If the customer trows it in the slab pile, that's up to him.
I'm sure many of mine have pulled them out after I left.
Jim Rogers
It takes a long time to understand what people might do. Too long and you will never learn all the angles. In this case the discounts ruined it because where there is one discount the must be more and if not there has to be a way. Here's one I like to tell; 2 neighbors decide to order firewood as a group order, deliveries side by side. They want 6 cord total at a discount [so much off per cord] They both get 2 cord and don't need the other 2. They pay up, you got it, the discounted rate. If you ever do this charge and receive full price and refund the discount when it is done. The list goes on and on. Clint Eastwood had a line: No more Mr. Nice Guy. You can wind up that.
Thankfully customers like we have been discussing here are the exception for me. I sometimes get people calling wanting a lower price but that is a non-starter. After we agree on terms it is done unless I decide to waive a fee or offer a discount, usually in the form of a few free boards or some special sawing project for the wife or kids. I sometimes get a question if I discount or waive the sales tax for cash - indicating they think I don't report cash sales. I honestly tell them cash or check is the same for me as I report all income. I never sweat the the state sales tax people or IRS coming to see me.
I have only had one customer try to squeeze a discount and even asked if I offered a military discount, actually a veteran's discount as a true military discount IMHO is for active duty and retired military, and I told her no. I have no doubt I served longer than both she and her husband and even as a contractor working for the military I worked in various war and conflict zones way more dangerous than they ever saw.
In some cases I finish a job and we leave with respect for each other but way more often I make new friends. That is why I keep sawing.
BTW - almost every time I make a purchase I tell the sales clerk "That's too much." and watch their expression. Some seem confused, most agree but say they can't help it and at the end we all laugh and move on.
As guys, we are used to hearing no ever since we asked for a good night kiss.
If you ask, you may have success, if you don't ask, you won't for sure.
I am never offended when asked to give a discount. Just politely decline. Got kids in college or owe bank money. Pick a reason.
I am not offended when someone asks for a discount but I do a real fast burn when they try to ask after the work is done. The time for negotiation is before the job starts.