I have built a 20' x 40' open shed barn for a cooks 3238 sawmill (ordered Feb. of this year, hopefully to be delivered in December. I currently have a 3/4" gravel floor. I planned to have a large canvas tarp in the sawdust discharge area, to be removed as needed by pulling folded tarp out with a tractor (idea obtained from this forum).
I am interested in opinions on whether or not I should "bite the bullet" and install a concrete floor. If I do, I think that 4" of high strength concrete with fiber added, and with a 4' x4' grid of #3 repar installed would work.....edges thickened to 8". Excavator with thumb used to load large logs would not be on the pad, but an L series Kubota tractor with forks would bu on the pad to move pallets of cut wood.
Thoughts on concrete floor and if so any other concrete design details would be appreciated.
My mill is under an 18x26 carport. I poured concrete about 7x18 across one end. My mill sits sideways in the carport. The rest of the area is just gravel. I never drive onto the concrete. It works well for me. Someday I expect to build a new home for the mill and use the carport for my kids when they start driving. I will pour more concrete for the floor at that point.
I have used the fiber additive for thin stuff 1.5 inch cap over my trussed floor in my shop and in the shallow end of our pool floor (under the liner). it has held together well but for a dog leg along a stairwell opening in the shop, I would use re-mesh panels 8 x 20 feet on a 6 x 6 grid. the "heavy matts" have close to a 1/4 inch rebar sized wire, and then add the heavy rebar along the "beam" you describe along the edge. I have not used the fiber in a traditional slab, but it may work well. it is plastic fibers so I would hate for it to fail you and or be an added expense that makes no difference in the long term. others will have opinions as well. will the slab be 20 x 40?
800 square feet, 266 cubic feet, just under 10 cubic yards of concrete + another half yard for the beam. so 1,155 bucks for the mud.
When i poured mud for a living, both commercial and inductrial, we put our rebar on 12" for industrial and some res, and the rest of the res, customer rested 16" centers.
Only time we used mesh was for sidewalks and drive ways, unless the driveway/entry way was to handle big trucks, then we used rebar.
If using fibercrete, heavy mesh would probably be fine, but i would think mats on 4' centers.
All of those a good suggestions. I would add that the base/sub base under the slab is very important. Without a good compacted base the slab will not be able to carry as much load. It's a "system" not just the slab. Next, use a good design strength concrete maybe 3500 - 4000 psi mix with about a 3" to 4" slump. DO NOT ADD much water at the pour because that lowers the water cement ratio and therefore strength. Talk to the contractor or batch plant. If it needs to be wetter to make it easier to work, use a plasticer ad mixture. It won't lower the strength. And finally, cure it properly. Keep it wet for 10 days, use a curing compound, or cover it with wet burlap, or wet it and cover with visqueen, etc. do all that after it has set enough to not damage the surface. This will slow down the moisture loss caused by the chemical reaction (causes heat) and will result in a much stronger slab. The slab should reach minimum 75% of the design strength in 7days. So after about 10 days you are safe to start putting loads on it. Most of the equipment you'll have around will not have a load anywhere near the design strength of the concrete. Roughly calculating, a 10,000 lb load equally spread over 4 tires that each have 1 square foot bearing on the ground will result in less than 20 psi load. Hope this helps.
Just remember, walking on concrete all day is miserable, so if you pour a big enough slab for everything then plan on buying rubber matting for all the work / walk areas.
Old conveyor belting like in a quarry makes and ok rubber walkway
Thanks to all for the information. I saw a post on the forum indicating that adding rock dust on top of the gravel (and then using a plate vibrator to compact) might work. I would be interested in feedback from anyone that has used or seen this application.
My base, where not original deep soil (very hard and compact), used clay fill placed in 6" lifts and compacted by multiple passes of my 12,000 # excavator.
Go for it and pour concrete,you'll be glad you did
I'm on the fence about pouring a pad when I build a shed. I'm considering building a wood deck, but we'll see when the time comes.
Removing the sawdust will be a real pain without that concrete pad if you are on gravel. The tarp is a temp solution at best. Sawdust is heavy and you will have the opportunity to deal with many torn tarps :).
I have set my mill up on grass, dirt, gravel, asphalt, and concrete. Being mobile means you have the opportunity to try many surfaces. My setup here at home is on concrete - wouldn't have it any other way. I understand that some have difficulty walking on concrete for extended periods of time, doesn't seem to both me and, after a log or two, I'm walking on sawdust anyway. I do have a horse stall mat at the control end of my B-20. Concrete makes clean up so much easier. I usually clean up when I remove the mill for a mobile job but sweeping under the mill and shoveling up the sawdust isn't that bad either.
I think over that clay I'd use 57's and shape the fill clay to drain readily through the open gravel and out of harms way, at 8" you are well shallower than A-ville's frost depth, make sure the water doesn't hang out under it.
Quote from: WDH on October 05, 2021, 09:14:03 AM
Removing the sawdust will be a real pain without that concrete pad if you are on gravel. The tarp is a temp solution at best. Sawdust is heavy and you will have the opportunity to deal with many torn tarps :).
The voice of experience... My saw shed is 30x70 with gravel floor. IF I had the money when I started, it would be concrete. Yes, I have walked on concrete all day for a living. In this situation, concrete would make clean up much simpler.
As far as the rock dust, I might be inclined to use the #57 stone and plate compact that. It should make a nice surface for the concrete to sit on. I'm not sure what benefit the rock dust would provide over 57. If the base installed is a good clay placed in 6" compacted lifts, then 3/4" stone, the 57 should fill the voids nicely and be a good foundation. I recommend a vapor barrier be placed over the stone prior to pouring the slab.
My thoughts on concrete.
Fiber can be expensive, hard to finish, and slick. Its main purpose is to prevent shrinkage cracks while it cures. Does that very good. My experience is from 15-20 years ago and may not be valid today. They do make different types of fiber so get advice from a pro.
Rebar doesn't allow the crack to widen or move. Expensive (I bet really expensive today), labor intensive to install, and hard on my knees installing it.
Mesh is cheap, easy to install, and works fairly well.
My best slabs have been with #4 rebar on 12" centers and mesh. My worse slabs were when I used #3 rebar on 2' centers and when a pro advised me to use nothing in a basement slab. I have never tried the heavy duty mesh now being sold but it is tempting.
Concrete always gets hard and cracks!
What is the going rate in your area for 3500-4000 psi fiber mesh concrete/yd?
We have been contemplating concreting the floor of the sawmill shed and possibly some other work and wood stack areas. Last week I was told by a contractor to figure $5/ft2 finished. We are contemplating doing the job ourselves to save a few coins. We would need 15 yd3 to do a 4" floor in the shed.
Here, fiber reinforced is $130 to $150 per yard. Looks like you are contemplating approximately 1,215 ft^2 of pad so your estimate was about $6K?
Your concrete will cost about $2,250 and his estimate is between 2 and 3 times the price of the concrete, which is about normal, if my number are correct.
I just got a concrete pad in, and WM recommended rebar every 24" and 6 inch thick under an LT70. I also used fiber mesh because the cost is worth it, but it won't beat metal. So I used both.
You may have seen my videos on it, and now that the jury is isn, yes, I wish I had done it years ago. There is little sawmill "walking" on it, but not as bad as I thought there would be.
Thanks, if we can get the concrete for your prices, we'll likely pour it ourselves. I recall when we built our shop in 1991 it was $28 yd3 and when I built my house in 1994 it was $32 yd3. The prices of things have far exceeded my incremental pay increases over the years.
A flat floor that we could stack lumber on anywhere would be one of those saving steps moves that John is always reminding me of.
Yeah prices have skyrocketed. Gravel was $300 a triple axle dump a couple years ago, a few days ago, $650 bought the same load.
A lot of gravel goes into concrete.
In '99 I go off concrete once and for all. Went home to the sawmill full time and walked on locust plank and sawdust/dirt. This helped my knees and back tremendously to this day. The cost? Saved the cost of concrete except footings and piers and get to smell things that died under the floor. If I had one of those traveling band mills set up stationary I would try hard to have a sawdust blower running along with it.
The problem with a concrete floor is you then need to put rubber matting over it to work all day. For that money why not lay down PT sleepers and a T+G 1.5" PT floor?
Concrete is the most desirable outcome but it's not cheap. I've not long done a temporary shed for the Mahoe but temporary here might need to stand through a hurricane next week and might be in place for a couple of years if priorities change so I didn't cut any corners of importance.
So I went with 40mpa (5800 PSI) concrete for the footings of the posts and the mill footings. The rest is formed up and compacted road base with heavy belting laid on top.
It ain't concrete, but you can clean it up by running a bucket over it in the right direction, sweep it spotless if you want etc etc. Water runs off when it rains, there's no issue with digging divots turning equipment on it... it's a 90% solution for 5% of the price.
I'll still go for concrete down the road, but first I have to figure out if I'm going to extend the existing greenmill or build another shed. And one of the lessons of this little experiment is that large areas of whatever I do... particularly under greenchains and transfers... see zero traffic and don't need to be anything but belting and that only because it's easier to keep clean than dirt.
Quote from: longtime lurker on February 17, 2024, 09:27:47 PMConcrete is the most desirable outcome but it's not cheap. I've not long done a temporary shed for the Mahoe but temporary here might need to stand through a hurricane next week and might be in place for a couple of years if priorities change so I didn't cut any corners of importance.
So I went with 40mpa (5800 PSI) concrete for the footings of the posts and the mill footings. The rest is formed up and compacted road base with heavy belting laid on top.
It ain't concrete, but you can clean it up by running a bucket over it in the right direction, sweep it spotless if you want etc etc. Water runs off when it rains, there's no issue with digging divots turning equipment on it... it's a 90% solution for 5% of the price.
I'll still go for concrete down the road, but first I have to figure out if I'm going to extend the existing greenmill or build another shed. And one of the lessons of this little experiment is that large areas of whatever I do... particularly under greenchains and transfers... see zero traffic and don't need to be anything but belting and that only because it's easier to keep clean than dirt.
You are so hard to disagree with.
If I had more roof height, I would be fine with going with a wooden floor. The roof height is as little as possible now with a dirt floor. I guess I could add height into each pole/pipe, but what a pita that would be. A rubber mat on the concrete would be a tolerable walk path.
Fiber up here in TN is 150yard. I had that put under my super70 with no rebar. That was 5 years ago no problems as of yet. My timber frame was poured the same way, fiber with no rebar. I'm sure added steel would never be a bad thing but for our climate going cheaper I don't think will affect anything. Its actually gotten to be common practice up here for concete pours unless its commercial.
Surprisingly, my legs feel better under concrete, with me having a bad knee and artificial hip. It was weird, it actually took about a week before I felt comfortable walking on a perfectly level surface at the mill. My body had memorized every little dip and dive in the previous hardpacked surface, every little slant and flat spot and I actually felt a little "land sick" when I started walking on it.
If you do it yourself, then you can save some serious money. On the other hand, there is a lot to be said about the "Hand the man a check and tell him to hurry up" method. I pulled the mill out the day before he arrived, I did the dirt and grade work to save money, they came in the next day, and pretty much it was done. The green concrete needed a few days to set, so I spent the time washing the mill off, doing PM on it, and stuff like that.
i do commercial concrete everyday and concrete is about 200 dollars a yd for 6 bag with all the taxes and fees here in mich,,,