The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: quadrider550 on December 01, 2021, 11:01:46 PM

Title: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: quadrider550 on December 01, 2021, 11:01:46 PM
I want to get an idea of how many people out there would be interested in using a bolt on adapter (replaces stock flywheel cover) that allows you to start your Stihl MS 440 or larger chainsaw with any 18 - 20 volt cordless drill. I have developed a working prototype for my MS 660 that I can easily apply to the other large saws. Please reply yes if you think this is a good idea or no if you think it's a waste of time. Thanks.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: WV Sawmiller on December 02, 2021, 06:23:52 AM
   I think it is a good idea. I have a couple of 440s and my wife has a small easy-start model. I always wondered why they did not make such for the bigger saws. Good luck with your endeavors.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: D6c on December 02, 2021, 06:46:26 AM
I've thought about doing something like that but never persued it as the two saws I have start pretty easily.  Of more use to me would be one for small Briggs and Stratton engines.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: fishpharmer on December 02, 2021, 09:17:35 AM
Yes, that would be handy for an 880!
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: Crossroads on December 02, 2021, 09:20:09 AM
Quote from: D6c on December 02, 2021, 06:46:26 AM
I've thought about doing something like that but never persued it as the two saws I have start pretty easily.  Of more use to me would be one for small Briggs and Stratton engines.
When I raced go karts we used a a 12v starter motor with a one way clutch on a shaft with a 3/4 socket that fit the flywheel bolt. Never thought of using it for a chainsaw 🤔
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: grabber green on December 02, 2021, 09:56:57 AM
My take is, it sounds cool,but if you can't start a large saw with the starter rope you probably don't need to be using a large chainsaw. Once you get a saw started is when the real workout begins.  I don't want to discourage you from trying to market your invention though because you just might be able to sell a bunch of them.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: longtime lurker on December 02, 2021, 10:27:14 AM
Quote from: grabber green on December 02, 2021, 09:56:57 AM
My take is, it sounds cool,but if you can't start a large saw with the starter rope you probably don't need to be using a large chainsaw.
This!!!
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: Ed_K on December 02, 2021, 10:30:02 AM
 Since I got sick I cannot start my 376 xpg the first time in the morning, it takes both of us to get that or the 394 xp going. I haven't had any problems with running them for a couple hrs. I've been trying to get a quick starter with a drill for over a yr, how did you do it  8). tried turning a bowl with rubber strips inside to turn the starter side but it just striped to rubber off. I also tried this on the starter on the band mill couldn't pull that over first start of the day either.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: sawguy21 on December 02, 2021, 11:52:52 AM
It has been tried many times but somebody has yet to come up with a practical solution. It would need to engage the starter pawls and have an over running clutch to keep the drill from spinning at 9,000 rpm in the operators hands when the saw starts.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: Silverfoxfintry on December 02, 2021, 04:26:12 PM
This is an interesting idea.
I use something similar to start the 700cc motor on my vintage MG5 tractor.
I use a post-hole borer with an adaptor to replace the original starter handle.
It works well, but you have to be really well braced and hope the motor doesn't kick back.
Good luck with your idea.

Silverfox 
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: doc henderson on December 02, 2021, 08:59:04 PM
i used a socket on an impact batt. Dewalt tool and used it to start a log splitter motor.  it started and the socket got in a bind and almost took my arm and forehead off.  I would worry about liability if you marketed this.  
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: quadrider550 on December 02, 2021, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: sawguy21 on December 02, 2021, 11:52:52 AM
It has been tried many times but somebody has yet to come up with a practical solution. It would need to engage the starter pawls and have an over running clutch to keep the drill from spinning at 9,000 rpm in the operators hands when the saw starts.
My starter engages the flywheel only in the direction of engine rotation which allows the engine fire and spin faster than the starter without putting any rotational  force on the starter/drill/operator. 
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: quadrider550 on December 02, 2021, 09:41:49 PM
Quote from: grabber green on December 02, 2021, 09:56:57 AM
My take is, it sounds cool,but if you can't start a large saw with the starter rope you probably don't need to be using a large chainsaw. Once you get a saw started is when the real workout begins.  I don't want to discourage you from trying to market your invention though because you just might be able to sell a bunch of them.
It's not that I can't start my big saw, I can and have many times...I just don't like to and I don't think I'm alone in my feelings towards starting big bore saws. 
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: Southside on December 02, 2021, 10:15:22 PM
If you truly have something that good, then my advice would be to stop talking about it in public and go find a patent attorney.  You see big saws, Stihl has a start assist on smaller saws so someone thinks there is a market for such a device.

Best of luck with it.  
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: YellowHammer on December 02, 2021, 11:17:04 PM
It's been done before, in some form or fashion, what's different than some of the electric starter conversion kits other have built?

I don't like starting a saw either, but with the higher horsepower units, it's unsafe to not have two hands on them at all times during the starting transient, and when they are running.  Positive physical control of the power head as well as the saw chain is crucial, and holding a 7 hp machine that's designed to cut thing into pieces, quickly, with only one hand, even if on the ground, while starting it using a device that requires my second hand is not something I would do.

However, if the saw was temporarily captured in a stand or holder while started, then it would be safer.  At that point, two hands could be on the starter.  

From an engineering standpoint, an overrunning clutch on a small electric motor is the simple and standard way to do this, and I have started many internal combustion engines with an overrunning clutch on an electric drill or even a two handed electric starter.  

Very similar to the You Tube video except this person used a disengaging fixture instead of a clutch.

https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I (https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I)

If the starter system was internal to the saw, such as the Easy Start, then that would be the ideal situation.

Just my thoughts.    

Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: JoshNZ on December 02, 2021, 11:22:33 PM
Look at RC nitro helis, they're all started with electric starters. 12v motor with a hex shaft you poke in the top of the model and press a button.

The receiver end in the model is a bearing supported shaft that drives the engine crank via a sprag clutch, so you can leave the shaft in there after it starts and pull it out when you're ready. Google "Trex 700n starter" should give an idea.

I think it's a good idea for those with shoulder injuries/etc but for anyone who's capable of pulling a rope, no way. My guess is there'd be a few people out there really happy to see it become available but not a huge seller generally speaking. In a paralell universe where starters were the norm and the rope was the upgrade, I'd pay extra for the rope, to not carry another item around and worry about batteries etc.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: quadrider550 on December 02, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 02, 2021, 11:17:04 PM
It's been done before, in some form or fashion, what's different than some of the electric starter conversion kits other have built?

I don't like starting a saw either, but with the higher horsepower units, it's unsafe to not have two hands on them at all times during the starting transient, and when they are running.  Positive physical control of the power head as well as the saw chain is crucial, and holding a 7 hp machine that's designed to cut thing into pieces, quickly, with only one hand, even if on the ground, while starting it using a device that requires my second hand is not something I would do.

However, if the saw was temporarily captured in a stand or holder while started, then it would be safer.  At that point, two hands could be on the starter.  

From an engineering standpoint, an overrunning clutch on a small electric motor is the simple and standard way to do this, and I have started many internal combustion engines with an overrunning clutch on an electric drill or even a two handed electric starter.  

Very similar to the You Tube video except this person used a disengaging fixture instead of a clutch.

https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I (https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I)

If the starter system was internal to the saw, such as the Easy Start, then that would be the ideal situation.

Just my thoughts.    
My starter is internal, not direct drive, and only engages one way so there is nothing to go flying when engine starts or try to spin the drill out of your hand and risk injury as the engine speed outruns the starter. I have been starting my MS660 with drill in left hand and right hand on the throttle dead cold with no choke or decompression used. Just hold throttle wide open until it fires (with chain brake on of course) and once started work throttle until RPM is stable. Once warm one quick spin of the drill fires it back up. The only thing is of course you need to bring a drill...but who doesn't have one of those these days. Thanks for your feedback. 
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: Tacotodd on December 03, 2021, 09:36:30 AM
My biggest and hardest start is the first one of the day. After that it's all gravy. But I manage just the same.

Now, if a unit is down on compression then the e start will help immensely but then it REALLY needs other mechanical work also.

Why not just install a SMALL decomp valve for the first start of the day. Because I don't think that you've elaborated as to when you have the most problems with your unit. Just something to think about.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: Ventryjr on December 04, 2021, 05:19:40 AM
I never seen the need for one. Till one day I had a hard time starting my 661c.  *DanG near threw my back out yanking it over 20 some odd times before it fired.  Normally it's a 2 pull-start saw.  I'd probably buy one now.  I always have a Milwaukee 18v impact gun in my truck.  
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: Sixacresand on December 04, 2021, 08:07:50 AM
It takes three hands to crank my stihl: one for holding the saw down, one to pull the starter rope and one operate the throttle.  but it is a heck of a cutting machine!
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: moodnacreek on December 04, 2021, 08:36:11 AM
I remember old saws that had a recoil start that came off and exposed a starter cup. What you needed was a rubber cone in a n electric drill to spin the chain saw, just a friction connection.  A fuel primer attachment is what I would like. I have to prime 2 of my saws every morning. 
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: YellowHammer on December 04, 2021, 09:36:29 AM
Quote from: quadrider550 on December 02, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 02, 2021, 11:17:04 PM
It's been done before, in some form or fashion, what's different than some of the electric starter conversion kits other have built?

I don't like starting a saw either, but with the higher horsepower units, it's unsafe to not have two hands on them at all times during the starting transient, and when they are running.  Positive physical control of the power head as well as the saw chain is crucial, and holding a 7 hp machine that's designed to cut thing into pieces, quickly, with only one hand, even if on the ground, while starting it using a device that requires my second hand is not something I would do.

However, if the saw was temporarily captured in a stand or holder while started, then it would be safer.  At that point, two hands could be on the starter.  

From an engineering standpoint, an overrunning clutch on a small electric motor is the simple and standard way to do this, and I have started many internal combustion engines with an overrunning clutch on an electric drill or even a two handed electric starter.  

Very similar to the You Tube video except this person used a disengaging fixture instead of a clutch.

https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I (https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I)

If the starter system was internal to the saw, such as the Easy Start, then that would be the ideal situation.

Just my thoughts.    
My starter is internal, not direct drive, and only engages one way so there is nothing to go flying when engine starts or try to spin the drill out of your hand and risk injury as the engine speed outruns the starter. I have been starting my MS660 with drill in left hand and right hand on the throttle dead cold with no choke or decompression used. Just hold throttle wide open until it fires (with chain brake on of course) and once started work throttle until RPM is stable. Once warm one quick spin of the drill fires it back up. The only thing is of course you need to bring a drill...but who doesn't have one of those these days. Thanks for your feedback.
The overrunning clutch can be either external or internal.  I had assumed it would external and on the drill, so as not to modify the saw, which is a hit on resale.  However, it still requires an electric drill so is a two piece design. 

Two hands on the saw, one hand on the drill, but better if two, and I'm out of hands.

I assume the pull cord is still available and usable, most saws will start one pull when warm, so using a drill to start a warm saw is a no go for me.

Still not sure if this is a State of the Art or Prior Art.  

Do a literature search, and see what comes up.  However, disclosing in public before filing is generally grounds for dismissal.  
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: doc henderson on December 04, 2021, 10:19:31 AM
I use two hands, and a foot in the handle, (I stand on the other one) for my 880... and you have to hold your mouth just right.   :)
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: Old Greenhorn on December 04, 2021, 11:02:17 AM
A couple of years ago my daughter rescued a weed whacker from the dump. and the starter pawls were blown apart and the surrounding plastic parts were shot. But I found one of these and it started like a charm. Troy Bilt has them on some of their tools.  LINK (https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?sa=L&ai=DChcSEwixv9Hessr0AhVNy8gKHY6WD-MYABAUGgJxdQ&ohost=www.google.com&cid=CAESQOD2OVlGqEtuFNMGd4C_8vRs0Mu2k3uqe0hGh_3yTHJfoZ04Okdt3NofKXXleIRLXMBA_n6YuhIEhZQLMRHG9UU&sig=AOD64_1yqrqo0xpnaDiJw5cMnq8NfGNTng&ctype=46&q=&ved=2ahUKEwiuqsTessr0AhVJlIkEHemRDvMQ9aACegQIARBZ&adurl=)
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: sawguy21 on December 04, 2021, 11:52:05 AM
I remember seeing a Remington with no rewind, it had a power cord with alligator clips. The operator either packed a battery or never got more than 10 feet from the truck. ;D I am surprised they sold any.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: moodnacreek on December 04, 2021, 08:41:23 PM
Quote from: sawguy21 on December 04, 2021, 11:52:05 AM
I remember seeing a Remington with no rewind, it had a power cord with alligator clips. The operator either packed a battery or never got more than 10 feet from the truck. ;D I am surprised they sold any.
Do you remember the Mc Cullough's with electric start? The add showed a man in a tree starting one. Early to mid '60's.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: sawguy21 on December 04, 2021, 11:00:05 PM
I do but I sure am not big enough to climb a tree with one of those brutes.
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: quadrider550 on December 06, 2021, 02:51:19 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 04, 2021, 09:36:29 AM
Quote from: quadrider550 on December 02, 2021, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: YellowHammer on December 02, 2021, 11:17:04 PM
It's been done before, in some form or fashion, what's different than some of the electric starter conversion kits other have built?

I don't like starting a saw either, but with the higher horsepower units, it's unsafe to not have two hands on them at all times during the starting transient, and when they are running.  Positive physical control of the power head as well as the saw chain is crucial, and holding a 7 hp machine that's designed to cut thing into pieces, quickly, with only one hand, even if on the ground, while starting it using a device that requires my second hand is not something I would do.

However, if the saw was temporarily captured in a stand or holder while started, then it would be safer.  At that point, two hands could be on the starter.  

From an engineering standpoint, an overrunning clutch on a small electric motor is the simple and standard way to do this, and I have started many internal combustion engines with an overrunning clutch on an electric drill or even a two handed electric starter.  

Very similar to the You Tube video except this person used a disengaging fixture instead of a clutch.

https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I (https://youtu.be/CwNlhqpVg3I)

If the starter system was internal to the saw, such as the Easy Start, then that would be the ideal situation.

Just my thoughts.    
My starter is internal, not direct drive, and only engages one way so there is nothing to go flying when engine starts or try to spin the drill out of your hand and risk injury as the engine speed outruns the starter. I have been starting my MS660 with drill in left hand and right hand on the throttle dead cold with no choke or decompression used. Just hold throttle wide open until it fires (with chain brake on of course) and once started work throttle until RPM is stable. Once warm one quick spin of the drill fires it back up. The only thing is of course you need to bring a drill...but who doesn't have one of those these days. Thanks for your feedback.
The overrunning clutch can be either external or internal.  I had assumed it would external and on the drill, so as not to modify the saw, which is a hit on resale.  However, it still requires an electric drill so is a two piece design.

Two hands on the saw, one hand on the drill, but better if two, and I'm out of hands.

I assume the pull cord is still available and usable, most saws will start one pull when warm, so using a drill to start a warm saw is a no go for me.

Still not sure if this is a State of the Art or Prior Art.  

Do a literature search, and see what comes up.  However, disclosing in public before filing is generally grounds for dismissal.  
I made this for myself as an intellectual challenge for fun but everyone I know that has seen it wants one. I'm deliberately not disclosing any specifics about the design but I can say that my design replaces the stock flywheel cover and the starter clutch is all internal of the cover with a hex drive that sticks out less than 1" from the outside of the cover. From what I've seen out there as far as drill start "adapters" for chainsaws my design is something completely new and like nothing else I've seen available anywhere. It is the only thing that can be said to be "practical" in any meaningful sense of the word. It really makes starting my MS 660 ridiculously easy. What I'm trying to accomplish with this thread is to determine how many people here would be interested in something like this. I chose this site do this because because the people on this site are the people that I would market this to if I decided to mass produce it. 
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: btulloh on December 06, 2021, 04:05:38 PM
I would be interested. Just using it to cold start some saws would be useful to me.  

It sounds like you need to have a different version for each model of chainsaw based on the clutch cover design. How does that affectyour time-to-market for developing and producing the different versions required?  What production process will you use to produce the clutch covers?  

There's a lot that goes in to developing a new product, production, distribution, service and support. I wish you well with the endeavor (and anyone taking the product development journey).

Just a suggestion, but it may be useful to either change this post to the survey-type (if that's possible) or start a new topic as survey post - maybe in the chainsaw area instead of the sawmilling area.


(Correction - it's called a POLL not a survey. Button is right after NewTopic button.)
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: quadrider550 on December 06, 2021, 04:45:21 PM
Quote from: btulloh on December 06, 2021, 04:05:38 PM
I would be interested. Just using it to cold start some saws would be useful to me.  

It sounds like you need to have a different version for each model of chainsaw based on the clutch cover design. How does that affectyour time-to-market for developing and producing the different versions required?  What production process will you use to produce the clutch covers?  

There's a lot that goes in to developing a new product, production, distribution, service and support. I wish you well with the endeavor (and anyone taking the product development journey).

Just a suggestion, but it may be useful to either change this post to the survey-type (if that's possible) or start a new topic as survey post - maybe in the chainsaw area instead of the sawmilling area.


(Correction - it's called a POLL not a survey. Button is right after NewTopic button.)
You are correct that each adapter would be model specific, but since I'm only interested in making these for the big bore models for Stihl (at first) there's only a few models (MS 440 through 880 and 090) that would have to be made. I already have a working prototype for MS660 and the basic design is easily modified and applied to each additional model. I've already started doing this and when I get further along and have working adapters for all the models and get enough interest I'll look into switching to high production. My background is in 3D CAD design, machining, and manufacturing so I already know how I'll do it but for now there's still work to be done before I'm ready for that. I didn't know this site did polls. Thanks for that, I'll definitely look into it. 
Title: Re: Bolt on drill start adapter for Stihl MS 440, 660, 880 and 090 chainsaws
Post by: Parrott on July 10, 2023, 10:51:44 AM
Wondering where this project got too.  Any prototype photos or videos?