The battery in my '06 yale perkins diesel will not crank the engine over in freezing weather. It does this every winter. I have put 3 new batteries in it, the take out go in other machines and work fine. This diesel will start right up in any weather if it will turn over. It is not a problem in the other 3 seasons unless it sits a long time. This winter I started running it before I quit and disconnecting the neg. battery cable. Makes no difference ! I am stumped .
Have you tried using a block heater on the machine and try it with the oil pre-heated?
I've seen a battery get a thin layer of oil and dirt on it and discharge slowly, a tiny bit of current flowing from the + to - posts across the top of the battery. It would discharge over night.
Are you sure it's not your starter? If sounds like you've listed the battery and it works everywhere else.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on January 25, 2022, 06:38:20 PM
Have you tried using a block heater on the machine and try it with the oil pre-heated?
AS near as I can tell this machine discharges it's battery overnight in cold weather even with a cable removed. This machine is an easy starter and seldom needs it's glow plugs. When I put jumper cables on it pulls the alternator hard on the jumper vehicle. When I bought it [used] it had a new battery in it and We had to boost in to get it off the trailer [ in warm weather] so I put a new, bigger battery in and thought I fixed it. Done that twice. So I figure it has a slight draw on it, so unhook it at the end of the day. Same problem next morning if below freezing. I have worked on and used junk all my life and never had a battery do it like this. I am missing something.
Quote from: barbender on January 25, 2022, 07:25:33 PM
Are you sure it's not your starter? If sounds like you've listed the battery and it works everywhere else.
I have a new one on the shelf but am convinced it does not need it yet. Of course I could be wrong.
Well, I am not a diesel guy, but could it be there is moisture or corrosion in the solenoid that is aggravated by the deep cold? I had a car like that by in the 70's, a 5 dollar solenoid and it never came back. Also, clean terminals are critical in the cold weather.
Good luck.
Have you checked the amps in the battery at the end of the day then again in the morning? I don't see how there could be much difference if you are unplugging it at night but I'd try that next. Cant hurt.
Howard, I assume that "checking the amps" you are making a load test?
A fully charged battery should read 12.7 volts. If it does not it ain't gonna do much cranking. Turning a Diesel engine over is not doing much toward making it start. A Diesel needs to be spun over.
A disconnected battery that discharges overnight is very "suspect".
I put a block heater on my garrett 15 it really made a difference, makes it start like it was summertime
If a battery is disconnected and loses its charge, its a bad battery. No way around that.
If its freezing cold and you replace the battery then, does the engine start? Then I would suggest you check the charging system for proper operation. The battery is only for starting the engine, then it runs off of alternator power. A bad alternator diode can reduce the output of the alternator so there isn't enough surplus power to run the engine and recharge the battery.
It could be a combination of a slightly undercharged battery and a starter that requires higher amperage in the cold. You replace the battery, check the charging system and wiring and its all ok. Well then, replace the starter/solenoid.
Oh, does the red battery cable get real hot when trying to start it? Starter.
I know I have had cars and they would get hard to crank so the mechanic would sell me a new battery, pretty soon same thing, so he'd sell me a new starter, same thing again before long so then he'd sell me a new alternator and that would fix it because when he replaced the alternator he'd tighten the fan belt which was actually the problem all along. ::) Of course when I'd discuss all those other parts replaced he'd swear they were bad too. ???
All your connections are clean and tight?
Just a thought take a volt reading on the battery right after you disconnect it for the day then one in the morning before you reconnect? Can't imagine a good battery would change much if any overnight.
Electrical gremlins are the worst couple them up with cold weather and aggravation is putting it mildly.
Quote from: Hilltop366 on January 25, 2022, 07:18:54 PM
I've seen a battery get a thin layer of oil and dirt on it and discharge slowly, a tiny bit of current flowing from the + to - posts across the top of the battery. It would discharge over night.
In a forklift everything under the seat/hood gets very dirty and there is a metal hold down close to the terminals . Thanks Hilltop
I probably mentioned this before but my diesel stuff gets serviced 2x per year, I try some where around memorial day to put 15 /40 wt farm store/coop /Rotella oil in and Thanksgiving is it gets changed and 10/ 30 wt goes in for winter. It flows lots better cold. I set extra batteries on wood blocks in my shop floor and keep them fresh with a trickle charger every so often. Always need one on a Sunday afternoon when hay needs raked or snow pushed. What this has to do with Doug's issue I don't know, but I have also seen a battery heat blanket for cold weather service. I don't know why they would discharge with a cable removed and the circuit not complete, unless it's crud.
Thanks so much for all the replies. My long winded post this morning went bye bye. I think before I put the new starter in I need to get a load tester to see how much discharge i get overnight.
dust off your 1947 balkamp amp meter, remove battery cable and hook the probes up as a bridge between the cable and the lug, in series. measure the current draw and report back.
this is a no crank winter starter.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1117211138.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637177977)
this is the same one now, a powerhouse if the voltage is there.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1117211201.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637177888)
pull the starter, pull the tail cone off it and check the brushes still have graphite. shimmy off the corrosion from the commutator with a sand belt or emory etc. then use a razor blade to scrape the carbon out of the keys. blow it off and use clamps to get the brushes back in if it has 4 poles.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1117211019.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637178029)
when you put it back in, wirewheel and file the mating surfaces of the starter nose and block until shiny then copper paste or copper spray or dielectric grease that surface, its the ground circuit.
if this wont whip over stone cold, add a temporary jumper cable from the batt neg to starter cone, try again. then add the red lead from battery positive to hot lug. try again. this is gonna show you which of your cables sucks so pay close attention.
if batt is deep discharging it will sulfate the plates and consume the acid. pull 6 caps under that lying "maintenance free" sticker the conmen at corporate glued over the maintenance ports, and fill with DEIONIZED or DISTILLED water only.. until 3/8 air gap in the vent slit is there. then hot charge it on a jumper pack start mode until it gasses off some bubbles for a few minutes. that removes the plate sulfation. you want like 17vdc or more to do this. its explosive and poisonous so do it outside the door with a smoke dangling from your lip for effect, you rebel.
Quote from: mike_belben on January 26, 2022, 02:23:58 PM
dust off your 1947 balkamp amp meter, remove battery cable and hook the probes up as a bridge between the cable and the lug, in series. measure the current draw and report back.
this is a no crank winter starter.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1117211138.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637177977)
this is the same one now, a powerhouse if the voltage is there.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1117211201.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637177888)
pull the starter, pull the tail cone off it and check the brushes still have graphite. shimmy off the corrosion from the commutator with a sand belt or emory etc. then use a razor blade to scrape the carbon out of the keys. blow it off and use clamps to get the brushes back in if it has 4 poles.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1117211019.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637178029)
when you put it back in, wirewheel and file the mating surfaces of the starter nose and block until shiny then copper paste or copper spray or dielectric grease that surface, its the ground circuit.
if this wont whip over stone cold, add a temporary jumper cable from the batt neg to starter cone, try again. then add the red lead from battery positive to hot lug. try again. this is gonna show you which of your cables sucks so pay close attention.
if batt is deep discharging it will sulfate the plates and consume the acid. pull 6 caps under that lying "maintenance free" sticker the conmen at corporate glued over the maintenance ports, and fill with DEIONIZED or DISTILLED water only.. until 3/8 air gap in the vent slit is there. then hot charge it on a jumper pack start mode until it gasses off some bubbles for a few minutes. that removes the plate sulfation. you want like 17vdc or more to do this. its explosive and poisonous so do it outside the door with a smoke dangling from your lip for effect, you rebel.
Might be the best forum post I've ever read
thanks VB, i will be here all week. try the veal
My money is on the starter.
Quote from: VB-Milling on January 26, 2022, 03:51:11 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on January 26, 2022, 02:23:58 PM
dust off your 1947 balkamp amp meter, remove battery cable and hook the probes up as a bridge between the cable and the lug, in series. measure the current draw and report back.
this is a no crank winter starter.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1117211138.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637177977)
this is the same one now, a powerhouse if the voltage is there.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1117211201.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637177888)
pull the starter, pull the tail cone off it and check the brushes still have graphite. shimmy off the corrosion from the commutator with a sand belt or emory etc. then use a razor blade to scrape the carbon out of the keys. blow it off and use clamps to get the brushes back in if it has 4 poles.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1117211019.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637178029)
when you put it back in, wirewheel and file the mating surfaces of the starter nose and block until shiny then copper paste or copper spray or dielectric grease that surface, its the ground circuit.
if this wont whip over stone cold, add a temporary jumper cable from the batt neg to starter cone, try again. then add the red lead from battery positive to hot lug. try again. this is gonna show you which of your cables sucks so pay close attention.
if batt is deep discharging it will sulfate the plates and consume the acid. pull 6 caps under that lying "maintenance free" sticker the conmen at corporate glued over the maintenance ports, and fill with DEIONIZED or DISTILLED water only.. until 3/8 air gap in the vent slit is there. then hot charge it on a jumper pack start mode until it gasses off some bubbles for a few minutes. that removes the plate sulfation. you want like 17vdc or more to do this. its explosive and poisonous so do it outside the door with a smoke dangling from your lip for effect, you rebel.
Might be the best forum post I've ever read
Made me smile and I'm still smiling. 8)
You could always just get one of these. Just don't get shown up by the little girl. :D
https://youtu.be/K0I-EHsmkME (https://youtu.be/K0I-EHsmkME)
You guys are good. Mike, the only voltage tester I own is a lug wrench. Your instructions on cleaning up the starter is common knowledge to me but things like testing the armature [ for 2 bad spots] I forgot how to do. So you have to post everything cause I only know half, thanks. The second new battery I put in this fork lift got real weak also and I sent it back to interstate after we charged it and Herb load tested it [ it failed] They trickle charged it and sent it back and told us the new batteries , if not kept up , must be trickled charged as the vehicle will not do it anymore. Apparently this is correct. Anyway the forklift started this morning at 7 degrees , barely. I ran it last night as I have a delivery today.
We had a terrible time with a combine in fall harvest. Replaced batteries, alternator, still had problems. So we took the battery cables off and cleaned them up with a file, and used a wire wheel on a battery powered grinder for some of the connections, put them back on and all was good.
ive seen a brand new battery cable fail to light a halogen bulb, it happens. jumprope with an old cable a few times and itll crank faster.
if youre using a wrench to test batteries barney rubble style i guess a harbor freight multi-meter would be a step up. atleast you cant glue that to the hood.
i have been putting moving blankets over my stuff after running it to preserve heat and the birds sure like sleeping in it. seems to start easier next day.
if youre gonna ether, dont hose it to a parked engine or itll eventually take the ring lands off. you wanna fog it in easy while cranking so distribution to each hole is fairly even and small in dose. find an npt plug in the intake or weld one on the inlet air pipe and run that to a piece of airbrake hose or maple tubing, air compressor tubing etc. put a bulkhead NPT fitting through the dash or firewall or floor, with an NPT cap. this way you can wiff it in from the comfort of your stone cold drivers seat while cranking. much much safer than spraying and jumping in to crank all that ether to the first glowplug that lights it off.
No either ever on this Perkins, if the barely turns, it starts and if sprayed it with a weak battery it would just stop . I think this engine has a flame glow plug starting devise. The whole issue is keeping the battery ready. I am starting to wonder if the alternator cuts out too early.
get a meter and call me and we will find out.
Are you sure the alternator is meant to operate on the speed of that engine?
Had an old school starter/alternator repair man tell me different alternators start charging at different rpms. His point was sometimes you can take can take an alternator off a gas engine and swap it to a diesel without issue other times you can't all depends on how it's wired internally. I'll openly admit that part is over my head.
I've now been doing business with him for three years he's really helped me out a few times great guy.
Wondering if maybe that's your issue?
Colder weather maybe you let it idle a lot more than when it's warm? Leading to the alternator charging to its full potential?
Quote from: newoodguy78 on January 27, 2022, 07:22:34 PM
Are you sure the alternator is meant to operate on the speed of that engine?
Had an old school starter/alternator repair man tell me different alternators start charging at different rpms. His point was sometimes you can take can take an alternator off a gas engine and swap it to a diesel without issue other times you can't all depends on how it's wired internally. I'll openly admit that part is over my head.
I've now been doing business with him for three years he's really helped me out a few times great guy.
Wondering if maybe that's your issue?
Colder weather maybe you let it idle a lot more than when it's warm? Leading to the alternator charging to its full potential?
Never thought of that. The machine is all original. Now with the chains on it is run just above an idle. But the problem is year around. If it was to sit for 2 weeks in July it would crank real slow. I have to stop fooling around and start using a volt meter.
Electrical is my shortfall for sure. Since working here I've been forced to learn it. A multi meter really is a good investment glad I bought mine.
FWIW that conversation I spoke of stemmed from an intermittent dead battery on a tractor here. Looking back when it was doing something that required rpms for most of the day it would usually start the next day not always. If it did something like transplanting or cultivating where it pretty much idled for most of the day it usually didn't start.
As per his advice swapped it out with the proper one and it's been fine since. Thought he was just trying to sell me something was I wrong.
My Case skid steer alternator doesn't start charging until you bump the rpms up. Seems like that was common on older diesel alternators iirc. My machine has a super irritating alarm that goes off when you start it, until you bump the rpms 200 or so rpms. Just a blip then its charging, even if you let it back down to idle.
Back in the day I had just bought a used Holden (GM Australia) car from out of town. I'd been driving it a few days, fixed some minor problems, and it all seemed good.
Until the trip home. About 9 at night I stop in a town about an hour from home for a snack, and the car wont start. :( Close enough to home to call Dad, ask him to grab a spare battery and jumper leads etc from the shed. Got the car running and got home.
Next day, trouble shooting...
Turns out the Regulator was a pretty basic one. It had 2 settings, full charge, or "trickle". When the battery voltage got high enough, it dropped back to the low setting, which was enough to run the car and put a small charge back in the battery, It was stuck on the low setting. Driving in the day, decent distances, it kept the battery charged enough. But a couple of hours night driving, with the extra halogen driving lights, and the battery soon went flat
Replaced the old regulator with a more modern (electronic) one, problem solved. But it took a few minutes to figure that one out, because with the car running the battery voltage was a nice 13.? volts, as it should be. It was only when you turned on the lights, it dropped down to ~12.?, meaning the battery was actually being gradually discharged, because the alternator wasn't switching up to the higher output.
Hence the value of a multi-meter.
My LT40 saws at 3K and idles at 1500 rpm's to insure that the alternator is supplying the max at all times which is per Wood-Mizer spec. The voltage never drops below ~14.5.
Ok, somebody left a multi meter here and I found it. Tested at 12.7 V this morning @ 29 degrees, just enough to turn over and start, she goes up to 13.7 V right away. I am thinking the starter wants high voltage or nothing.
My backhoe is a bit slow turning which makes it hard to start (Cummings 4b), I was worse a couple of years ago so I took the starter apart and had new brushes put in as they were getting worn, that speed it up quite a bit and started better but it is getting slow again.
I would like to see 14.2 v+ from a charging system in a 12 volt system. This is what is expected of automobiles at least. You might want to check on the specs for this. A blown alternator diode can reduce the output of an alternator. I know nothing about fork lifts, but the physics of the battery/electricity is the same. The charging system appears to be working, but not good enough IMO. The starter might also be bad or going, but you cannot confirm this unless you know the charging system is A-OK.
Here is a link to a great document of testing procedures for charging systems.
https://pdf4pro.com/view/troubleshooting-the-alternator-and-forklift-charging-circuit-4f7ce1.html (https://pdf4pro.com/view/troubleshooting-the-alternator-and-forklift-charging-circuit-4f7ce1.html)
Quote from: rusticretreater on January 28, 2022, 03:47:18 PM
I would like to see 14.2 v+ from a charging system in a 12 volt system. This is what is expected of automobiles at least. You might want to check on the specs for this. A blown alternator diode can reduce the output of an alternator. I know nothing about fork lifts, but the physics of the battery/electricity is the same. The charging system appears to be working, but not good enough IMO. The starter might also be bad or going, but you cannot confirm this unless you know the charging system is A-OK.
Here is a link to a great document of testing procedures for charging systems.
https://pdf4pro.com/view/troubleshooting-the-alternator-and-forklift-charging-circuit-4f7ce1.html (https://pdf4pro.com/view/troubleshooting-the-alternator-and-forklift-charging-circuit-4f7ce1.html)
I thought anything over 12V was good, but like the T shirt says " i am a 6 volt guy in a 12 volt world" Anyhow it is catching up to Me. One of the problems is that if this machine turns over it starts so you don't know things are slowing down until they stop. No warning like with other engines. Thanks for telling Me the voltage and being it is a diesel it should be on the high end.
Quote from: moodnacreek on January 28, 2022, 01:23:27 PMTested at 12.7 V this morning @ 29 degrees,
12.7 is a good fully charged battery. A battery can not do any better than that if it has the proper CCA rating for your application.
My zero turn mower always has a fuel prime issue. SO to many times I have to let it crank for a while to get the fuel back in the carb. I kept thinking I had a bad battery cause it was always dead when I went to start it every week. or at least low enough it wouldn't turn over. After putting some thought into it I realized the longer the starter cranked the slower it got. Ends up the starter was bad. it was only obvious when it basically seized up during long cranks. But once it cooled off it worked fine.
Quote from: moodnacreek on January 28, 2022, 01:23:27 PM
Ok, somebody left a multi meter here and I found it. Tested at 12.7 V this morning @ 29 degrees, just enough to turn over and start, she goes up to 13.7 V right away. I am thinking the starter wants high voltage or nothing.
If you have a helper, watch how much the voltage drops while it's being cranked over. If it goes below 10V, you may have a dead cell in the battery.
Quote from: scsmith42 on January 29, 2022, 07:26:30 PM
Quote from: moodnacreek on January 28, 2022, 01:23:27 PM
Ok, somebody left a multi meter here and I found it. Tested at 12.7 V this morning @ 29 degrees, just enough to turn over and start, she goes up to 13.7 V right away. I am thinking the starter wants high voltage or nothing.
If you have a helper, watch how much the voltage drops while it's being cranked over. If it goes below 10V, you may have a dead cell in the battery.
It has done this with 3 different batteries for 3 years. I have to change the starter when the weather breaks.
Your battery and charging system are fine doug. Open up the starter.. If its still got brushes just make the commutator look new and youll get another lifetime out of it. If u turn that core in youre givingnaway a good starter.
Job can be done quicker than a trip to the store, even in suburban NY. Remember to jumprope with the cables and buff up all the contact points with the 80 grit or so, or the cable voltage drop will just eat up your brand new starter. A file or knife even where its hard to get.. Just scratch it up with something rough, u want copper or steel shine.
Quote from: mike_belben on January 30, 2022, 02:39:57 PM
Your battery and charging system are fine doug. Open up the starter.. If its still got brushes just make the commutator look new and youll get another lifetime out of it. If u turn that core in youre givingnaway a good starter.
Job can be done quicker than a trip to the store, even in suburban NY. Remember to jumprope with the cables and buff up all the contact points with the 80 grit or so, or the cable voltage drop will just eat up your brand new starter. A file or knife even where its hard to get.. Just scratch it up with something rough, u want copper or steel shine.
We used to use carbon tet. to do that
Quote from: Crusarius on January 29, 2022, 10:17:12 AM
My zero turn mower always has a fuel prime issue. SO to many times I have to let it crank for a while to get the fuel back in the carb. I kept thinking I had a bad battery cause it was always dead when I went to start it every week. or at least low enough it wouldn't turn over. After putting some thought into it I realized the longer the starter cranked the slower it got. Ends up the starter was bad. it was only obvious when it basically seized up during long cranks. But once it cooled off it worked fine.
I guess that is why I was told to only to crank a starter for 20 seconds and let it rest.
Once you get it running a volt meter should read 14.2 - 14.5v if not you have an alternator issue.
You can use a voltmeter to check voltage drain across the battery case. Leave 1 probe on a terminal and take the other and touch it to the top of the battery in different places heading to the other terminal. A damp battery will show voltage.
Please post what you figure out.
Quote from: DMcCoy on February 20, 2022, 08:38:42 AM
Once you get it running a volt meter should read 14.2 - 14.5v if not you have an alternator issue.
You can use a voltmeter to check voltage drain across the battery case. Leave 1 probe on a terminal and take the other and touch it to the top of the battery in different places heading to the other terminal. A damp battery will show voltage.
Please post what you figure out.
Apparently it is the starter. With the weather getting warmer, she starts right up. It has been doing this for 3 years and has not gotten any worse. That is what confuses me. I am behind the 8 ball as I have not sawed this winter, my usual, sawing season because of the new mill installation. When I change the starter I will post, thanks for your interest, Doug
I never got back to those who tried to help with my hard in cold weather or after sitting start problem. I never put the new starter in until yesterday because I learned how to start it in the morning. I found that if I held the glowplug button down for 2 minutes, let off and c ranked she would start with only one revolution unless it had not been run for a few days or was very cold. So this morning it was 24 degrees and it started with no glow plugs. It was the starter all along and the one I took out was not original. 06 4cylinder Perkins, 5000 hours.