Well, here we go. I've been collecting parts for a while now and started building this week. The plan is not entirely mapped out but I think I have a basic understanding and enough fabricating skill to figure it out along the way. I'll add pics if possible and take all the sound advice y'all are willing to offer. I'm taking ideas from several different mills like EZ Boardwalk, Lin Lumber and a YouTuber named Larry Sbrusch. I want to have a fully manual saw that can be upgraded if I get tired of pushing the thing for every board. Lets get into this!
Welcome and good luck on your build. There are lots of helpful people here that are willing to help. so don't hesitate to ask questions.
I'm looking for a thread or direction on how to post pics please. Thanks in advance!
Quote from: Cornerstone on March 07, 2022, 11:36:10 PM
I'm looking for a thread or direction on how to post pics please. Thanks in advance!
Photo posting thread (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=100194.0)
Thanks for the tutorial my friend.
The saw bed was made from 6" channel
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/IMG_27995B92705D_sawbed.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1646750855)
The track all painted up with leveling feet added in.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/saw_bed_painted.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1646751860)
This is how I designed my track roller system, still more work to be finished though.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/saw_bed_roller.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1646751575)
Lookin good!
Quote from: Cornerstone on March 08, 2022, 10:11:00 AMThanks for the tutorial my friend.
You're welcome. Now you just need to rotate your photos so I don't fall out of my chair when I look at them! ;)
Pushing is the easy part!!
It's all the rest that is hard.
Marvelous! I would have concern about the little tabs that are carrying the levelling screws. The two tabs in the middle will need to carry 1-2 tons of weight. They look like they could be subject to bending under that kind of load. Are you planning to add more of them?
You need to put stops on the ends of the track so you/gravity/wind can roll the head off the track. You should also consider putting some type of hook from the head down under the track so the head can tip over off the track(I had that happen mid way through a cut above my head when a cable broke and the entire head tipped over and did a lot of damage.
+1 I wish I captured my carriage on the bed. It worked fine until an obscure problem one day and tipped over, did a fair bit of damage. Doesn't have to he a smooth cam follower, just a hook to prevent tipover
Quote from: DanMc on March 09, 2022, 07:49:57 AM
Marvelous! I would have concern about the little tabs that are carrying the levelling screws. The two tabs in the middle will need to carry 1-2 tons of weight. They look like they could be subject to bending under that kind of load. Are you planning to add more of them?
Yes sir! more material will be added to the frame where the wheels attach. Plus some sort of sweeper set-up to keep the sawdust from buildup.
Quote from: thecfarm on March 09, 2022, 06:21:58 AM
Pushing is the easy part!!
It's all the rest that is hard.
Truth indeed! It's fun too! I've only made 2 passes in my life on one of these and can't wait to make thousands more. ;D
Quote from: rusticretreater on March 08, 2022, 11:27:35 AM
Lookin good!
Appreciate the compliment sir!
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on March 09, 2022, 01:34:16 PM
You need to put stops on the ends of the track so you/gravity/wind can roll the head off the track. You should also consider putting some type of hook from the head down under the track so the head can tip over off the track(I had that happen mid way through a cut above my head when a cable broke and the entire head tipped over and did a lot of damage.
Stops and capture hooks are in the "half-fast" plan as well. Thanks for the advice. Please keep it coming! smiley_thumbsup
The hooks and the stops should be bolted on instead of welded. I welded mine on and when I wanted to extend my bed I had to cut the stops and the hooks had to be cut off and made new because the track extensions were each made of different material.
Quote from: Joe Hillmann on March 09, 2022, 01:34:16 PMYou need to put stops on the ends of the track
On my track, which is 2"x3" angle, 3" vertical, I drilled a hole near the end and put a small shackle through it with the shackle on the top of the angle. Stops it well and easy to remove when needed. With yours, you could just use a C-clamp or drill a hole vertical and put big bolt through it.
Cornerstone, I have the inverted V track on both sides of my sawmill and no wipes. the V roller wheels do a pretty good job of self cleaning by pressing the sawdust down to the rail, only wire brushed a couple of times when I forgot blow down and it rained. the head does not bounce around.
Quote from: JoshNZ on March 09, 2022, 02:09:33 PM
+1 I wish I captured my carriage on the bed. It worked fine until an obscure problem one day and tipped over, did a fair bit of damage. Doesn't have to he a smooth cam follower, just a hook to prevent tipover
I second this suggestion. You dont think you will ever tip it over, but it will eventually happen for some reason or another. Especially when your head is cranked all the way up and your top heavy. I suppose at least then you will get to post in the "did something dumb" thread.
Here's how Woodland Mills keeps the mill head rollers clean. Its a piece of twisted wire cable folded in half and mounted so the ends of the cable are in the grooves of the rollers.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/67554/sawdust_scraper.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1646873072)
My rails are 1/2 inch iron pipe. My wheels have a big v grove with a smaller square grove at the bottom and I have clean packed sawdust out of them every few passes. I should put a scraper of some type to keep them clean.
The build up raises the head about 1/16 inch and makes the head much harder to push.
Since you fellas are so helpful, I'll go ahead and ask a few questions I've been pondering.
Here are the parts I intend to use.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/band_wheel_full_size~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647024184)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/band_wheel_with_tapered_bushing~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647024235)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/pillow_block.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647023358)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/roller_guige.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647023394)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/roller_guide_with_bushings.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647023432)
First question. Do y'all think my selection of 1.25" shaft diameter is going to be acceptable? I ask because I see others are using larger. I was trying to save a few bucks when I bought these... I hope I won't regret it!
Second question is this... The custom made roller guides have a machined lip inside the center bore that prohibits the bearings from fully pressing in. Anyone see a problem with this? I'm sure I can find someone to mill out a bit more material and solve this 100% in advance if needed.
Thanks guys,
Brian
If your supporting the shaft on both sides with pillow block bearings, I think 1.25" will be strong enough. Not sure about the bearings.. Its odd that they dont go in farther. I suggest asking whoever you bought them from how the design is to accept bearings.
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on March 11, 2022, 02:36:14 PM
If your supporting the shaft on both sides with pillow block bearings, I think 1.25" will be strong enough. Not sure about the bearings.. Its odd that they dont go in farther. I suggest asking whoever you bought them from how the design is to accept bearings.
Thank you for the response. I'll give him a call.
Today I addressed a few concerns with the wheel and track design.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Added_track_backstop.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647134028)
Added backstops.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Angles_for_wheel_strenght.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647134114)
To cover the back wheels and add strength.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Steel_to_cover_front_wheel.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647134253)
I cut the same size tubing in half and used it to add strength and cover the front wheels as well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/New_stronger_wheel_design.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647134418)
New wheel design.
Since this is all I was able to get done today, I'm now seeing how long this is going to take! I know there are many on this board who can steer me in the right direction. I hope everyone will feel free to jump in and say, Hey... do this next, or.... Look at so and so's build. Basically I'm overwhelmed from watching a bazillion videos, drawing out several dozen plans, and thinking this over until I'm confused. My goal is to have a strong, manual mill that can be upgraded to have some power frills in the future. I figure if I love it as much as I think I will, I'll then go through the extra expense and effort to snaz it up a bit.
After I get trolley all squared up and welded together, I 'm not sure what step I should do next. I figure I'll lay out my band wheels with the 158" blade wrapped around them to see how wide I need to make the frame with the sliding "tensioner" part. Maybe that will make the direction clearer after I can visualize it. It would be nice to have a set of actual plans.
Awaiting guidance....
Brian
I used SketchUp to draw out my head plans. How are you going to hang the head in the frame? Make ABSOLUTELY sure you will be able to raise the head as far as you need and doesn't conflict with bracing holding the trolley together. Actually, make sure it can raise at least 15% further than you think you need ;) You need to plan for where your engine, fuel tank and lube tank will be sitting. I moved my lift motor (up on top) and it was in the way of my fuel tank. Was able to do a field fix on that one!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20210622_a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1624480275)
I do a bit of manufacturing of things myself and like to design things.
You do need to get the bearings fully seated in the roller guide. In the picture, it appears the lip is quite a way down the bore. Unless you are using really wide bearings, it seems the bore is tapered. They might need to be heated up to slide the bearing in and when it cools, they are married, or the tolerance is off(likely). The bearing takes its load in the center of the race, so having them protrude is asking for them to cock to one side, pop out or misalign.
I understand your need to reinforce the carriage of the head around the wheels. But the design you have seems it will collect all manner of debris under the roller cover which will be hard to clean out(shavings, bark, chunks of wood). You could probably use a few access holes to stick a screwdriver in there or a power sprayer, etc. to clean things. Another thought is to mount your groove cleaning device on the cover over a slot to keep the wheels below clean.
As for the mill head, yep you want to continually check things to ensure clearance. I raise the head on my mill high so that I can work on things standing up, or to get a better viewing angle from underneath. Another thing to consider when designing the head.
Thanks ljohnsaw, trying to learn SketchUp now... it sure looks like an incredible tool if I can get good at it. I like the way EZ boardwalk 40 hangs their saw head, with using a garage door spring to assist with the weight, so that's currently the idea. Note taken on allowing enough extra height for the head to be out of the way.
Appreciate the advice rusticretreater. The problem is that bore the bearings fit into is just not deep enough. It's not a tapered bore, just too shallow. Maybe a different bearing will do the trick, but I'm going to contact the fella who sold the pieces to me and see what he says. He made them with his own equipment so he may request me to send them to him to cut out some more material or possibly exchange for a proper set. In regard to the wheel cover design, what do you think if I cover the front of the front wheel and the and back of the back wheels and enclose the housing entirely, while adding a groove cleaning device similar to the Woodland Mills design you shared? I also like the idea of the saw head being high enough to get under it.
Really appreciate all the help gentlemen.
Brian
Quote from: Cornerstone on March 12, 2022, 08:42:43 PMAfter I get trolley all squared up and welded together, I 'm not sure what step I should do next. I figure I'll lay out my band wheels with the 158" blade wrapped around them to see how wide I need to make the frame with the sliding "tensioner" part. Maybe that will make the direction clearer after I can visualize it. It would be nice to have a set of actual plans.
Awaiting guidance....
Brian
At one point I was going to build my own saw with full hydraulics. I then decided to just build the deck/trailer and hydraulics myself and purchase the saw head to put on it. Prior to starting I did purchase some saw plans on e-bay. I looked today and they are still there. Just search "sawmill plans". If you want my opinion on the ones I purchased, send me a PM.
I am a little late to the party but I definitely agree with a carriage track capture. Check out my build thread for some kinda strange ideas.
Your build is looking good. Have you tried a twist test on the bed yet? I think I saw something about wanting to add wheels.
My rail scrapers are just a piece of 1/8" aluminum plate bent 90 degrees with a slotted hole and gravity holding it to the rail. works perfect for scraping before the sawdust gets packed in.
It took me about a year to build mine. If I didn't have to work or have family stuff it would have been quite a bit faster.
With the size of my sawmill I never thought clearances would be an issue. I ended up with everything so tight that its a pain to do anything.
Another option I added that I feel is probably the best is the ability to run a 158" or 176" length blade (both standard woodmizer lengths).
When I was building it the place I worked at just happened to use 1.25" banding. I had them make me a loop of 158 and 176. Now I have two different length dummy blades. they cut much less while setting everything up and aligning the wheels. Plus I did not damage any blades during construction.
Quote from: Crusarius on March 13, 2022, 02:10:40 PM
1. Have you tried a twist test on the bed yet?
2. My rail scrapers are just a piece of 1/8" aluminum plate bent 90 degrees with a slotted hole and gravity holding it to the rail. works perfect for scraping before the sawdust gets packed in.
3. Another option I added that I feel is probably the best is the ability to run a 158" or 176" length blade (both standard woodmizer lengths).
4. When I was building it the place I worked at just happened to use 1.25" banding. I had them make me a loop of 158 and 176. Now I have two different length dummy blades. they cut much less while setting everything up and aligning the wheels. Plus I did not damage any blades during construction.
1. I have not tried a twist test yet but now that you mention it I can see why that would be important. I for see more design changes in my future...
2. Your scraper idea sounds good... I may implement that along with adding a groove cleanout device.
3. You've got me curious as to how 2 different blade sizes would work. What cut width does each provide?
4. I wonder where I can get ahold of a toothless band for set up purposes around these parts...
Thank you for the ideas
Brian
with the 158" I have 31" between the guides and the 176" I have roughly 41".
So if you look at the image below you can see a T-bolt through the green moving part. Oh yea, side tangent. make sure the adjustable side has a positive stop so when your band breaks it doesn't launch. now on with our regularly scheduled show.) That T bolt gets removed, then the adjustable part gets slid out to where there is another hole that the T-bolt then gets put into.
The green saddle that sits between the 2 blue connections to the mast also has a T-bolt. Remove the T-bolt, remove the saddle, then set the saddle on the frame behind the hydraulic tensioner in front of the adjustable part. (its just an extension that sits on the sawframe) Thread the T-bolt back into the existing hole so you don't lose it :) Then put the longer blade on and tighten it.
All of the adjustable parts including the blade guide are connected to the slide. This makes it so there is no adjustment necessary when changing blade lengths. It is one of the features Iam really proud of.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/sawmillcomplete3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568644410)
I can't seem to find any pictures of the scrapers. It is currently 17 degrees and snowing so I will not be going to get any. plus the sawmill is under 6" of snow :) If you look through my gallery you can see the pics I have taken.
Another thing I found that works really nice is the black lines I painted on both ends of the mill. those indicate my blade lines. if the log fits in between them it will cut. Since I have 20'-4.5" cut length cutting 20' logs was a real pain getting them lined up. So I added the lines. Sure made my life quite a bit easier.
One thing I would do different though is replace the rotating backstops with vertical ones. The rotating ones are a nightmare to align. Plus it doesn't have the best holding power when you are edging boards under 6" wide.
The first backstop is 1/2" taller than the rest. Something I stole from another forum user, I forget who but it was a great idea. If the blade clears the first one it will clear the rest.
I am sure I have more ideas I can share but that's good for now :)
Quote from: Crusarius on March 13, 2022, 04:12:42 PM
*with the 158" I have 31" between the guides and the 176" I have roughly 41".
*Another thing I found that works really nice is the black lines I painted on both ends of the mill. those indicate my blade lines. if the log fits in between them it will cut.
*The first backstop is 1/2" taller than the rest. Something I stole from another forum user, I forget who but it was a great idea. If the blade clears the first one it will clear the rest.
*Thanks man. How often do you switch and which size do you prefer?
*Another couple of excellent ideas... those aggravations now avoided!
I feel for you fellas up north. I can remember the days living on the north east coast of Connecticut, dealing with the freezing weather makes ordinary chores a major event. Although when August arrives here in Texas, I'll be cryin' about the heat.
Brian
so far, I do not have any 176 blades. :)
But I wanted the option. The other thing to is with 1 more hole drilled I could run an even longer blade. I wasn't sure if one day I would end up with a big enough tree to make it worthwhile or not.
I actually have 3 logs that I think I will need the longer blade for. so one of these days I need to order them.
Is this too good to be true?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/larger_pin_wheel_scraper.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647212870)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/larger_pin_scraper_contact.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647212910)
I also have a smaller pin that won't stick out front as far.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/smaller_pin_for_wheel_scraper.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647213016)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/smaller_pin_scraper_contact.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647213057)
I suppose I could just weld the scraper inside the housing place and do away with the exposed portion.
I think an even better approach would be to have 2 scrapers per wheel so it'll function forward or backward. Like this...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/scraper_design_rotated.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647214439)
Any opinions?
Both directions, you may be stuck in a log and have to go back n forth a bit. The scrapers should extend down to half of the wheel. That way the debris falls clear of the wheel instead of falling on the wheel and being pulled right back into the scraper.
Also, don't weld them, you will have to fight it later, especially if you have to remove the wheel. But nice thinking on the clip!
That works for the groove but I am pretty confident thats a 90 degree include angle which is the same as the angle iron. so your real buildup points are going to be the flats. are you planning a scraper on the flats?
Wish I had a picture of mine. they are beyond simple.
Quote from: Crusarius on March 13, 2022, 09:05:18 PM
That works for the groove but I am pretty confident thats a 90 degree include angle which is the same as the angle iron. so your real buildup points are going to be the flats. are you planning a scraper on the flats?
Wish I had a picture of mine. they are beyond simple.
Yes. I'm thinking both groove cleaner and flats scraper. I can envision the slotted aluminum scraper clearly, no pic needed. Thank you.
Weather got nice, so I went and snapped a picture of my wheel cover / scraper / carriage retainer.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20220315_102757.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647355067)
Very simple 1/8" plate with 3/16 hook around the 3/8" rail welded to the side of the 2x6 box. So far it has done an excellent job keeping sawdust from building up on the tracks and wheels. When I was running it without them, I had to wire brush the tracks and wheels to get rid of the buildup.
The hook was an afterthought that I have grown to love. It is a pain to take the carriage off the bed though.
Looks like an effective safety design. Thanks for sharing.
Made a nice score today. For a few months I've been checking stock for the HF Predator 22 hp engine and every time the website shows it's back in stock I run down to buy one and just miss it. By chance I happened to check Craigslist and found one new in the box. After a quick phone call with an accepted offer of $650. I was on my way. Saved $356. over buying it from Harbor Freight and picked it up today with no wait. 8)
When I first started gathering stuff for the build I thought I would be ok with a 13 hp powerplant, so I picked up a new one to have on hand when the time came. As I've done more studying on it I've come to realize (like everything else in my life) more power is always better! So now I guess I need to either build a smaller mill to sell or like Crusarius said, "save it for an edger build"
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Predator_engine_unopened_box.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647404680)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/NIB_Predator_22_hp.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647404742)
On a side note, after closer inspection, I realized the bearings could by pressed in all the way to the proper depth on the guide wheels, so that's one less issue to solve. ;D
What do y'all think about using this as a blade tensioner? Same principle as the Linn Lumber option but 1/2 the price. The reviews aren't that great but I could test it out with a heavy load while still in the free returns period of time with Amazon. The cylinder has a 2" stroke with 10 ton capacity.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Possible_blade_tensioner.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647534154)
That would work very well. the only issue is mounting the big ram and hoping it holds pressure.
I have a ram like that (shorter throw - 7/8"). It does NOT hold pressure. Instruction say to use the supplied ball bearing and rebuild the check valve. I'd rather put in a high pressure valve (if economical) to close it off so I can remove the pump.
A small high pressure needle valve or ball valve will work and not that expensive.
Also, the screw arrangement like on the one from Linn will have the ability to give you very fine pressure control. Since pressure is relative to blade tension, being able to control pressure is important. A larger cylinder has more area which means a slight change in pressure results in a bigger change in blade tension. A smaller diameter will be better. If you use the hand pump arrangement, I would plumb in an adjustable relief valve. That way you set the pressure on the relief valve and pump until the relief valve starts opening. The pressure/blade tension is determined by the relief valve, not how hard you push on the lever of the hand pump. You will want to have a pressure gauge on whatever set up you use.
Would be easy to put a shutoff inline with the ram. Once to pressure, lock the shutoff and you should be alright. Just make sure the gauge is on the ram side so you can see when you need to fix it.
My tensioner uses a handpump and ram like that.
I have a pump with the built in check valve/return needle valve, shutoff valve, gauge, hose, cylinder, in that order. Without the shutoff valve you are relying on both the check valve and needle valve in the pump to be perfectly sealed which isn't guaranteed unfortunately.
The reliefe valve idea I would think is an overkill, and another point to fail/leak/wear. I pump mine up to 2000psi, close shutoff valve, and saw all day. If I cook a blade or get pitch build up on wheels it will certainly show it on the gauge which is handy.
Great call on the power upgrade too, I went with the same engine, I bet the machine wouldn't be the same with a single banger ~15hp. My next mill will be 30hp diesel minimum
There is nothing better than real world experience so if you think the relief valve is a bad idea, not going to argue. What diameter is your ram?
Smaller than the OPs, with a longer stroke. But I doubt more than 2" ever gets used so it should be fine in that regard. I agree an appropriately sized ram would give better resolution or control, in effect. Prob ok what you've got there though.
I found a photo below, maybe 2" diameter piston? I did have to modify mine, it had a floor jack in there originally - stay right away from that idea I can say that much for sure.
A relief valve would also 'vent' excess tension when you over tightened, from pitch buildup or whatever. Could be argued both ways that is good and bad.
But anyway it really is a piece of cake to tweak it up to 2000psi on the dot and close the valve. I take it up to ~500psi then bring the engine up to just above where the clutch has properly engaged then crank it all the way up to 2000. Sometimes needs another half pump after first cut but then it's sorted. Band coming up to temp I guess.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200123_143843.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579815599)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200123_212939.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579815859)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200124_151740.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579850883)
You guys are awesome! Thanks for the guidance and pictures.... very helpful.
This ram had a hole in the bottom of it or a mortise I guess you'd call it, I turned a little tenon/steel puck and welded it to the base where the ram sits and grub screwed it through the ram that's probably worth a photo too. Was a simple way to get it to stay put.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200124_151453.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1579850820)
Well, I loosened my tight fist and decided to pay the pros for the good stuff. The Linn Lumber tensioner should be in my grubby hands in a week or so. I think it was a good way to keep from pestering you kind gentlemen, while at the same time supporting an American family owned business. I believe its the best option really.
Since I have to wait for parts now I want to refocus on to the next thing I can tackle. Back stops. I've heard both JoshNZ and Crusarius mention in their threads they had to change up their initial design. I guess I can blame my dyslexia, but I wasn't quite clear what the problem was and how y'all fixed the situation. Truthfully I'm too lazy to sift through all the threads to figure it out on my own. lol
Would either of you care to point me in the right direction as to what will be the best back stop design right from the get go? I also could use some direction for a log dog design that is fool proof. I've seen several ways to skin that cat, just not sure which design works great that's not too complicated.
I'm lovin' this guys! I'm gonna have to give this thing a name with something that reflects all the help I received. Maybe "FFCB" Forestry forum community build...I don't like acronyms but you get the idea. I'm taking recommendations. ;D
Gratuitous pic for no reason other than I like pics so I figure you do too.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Blade_stretched_out_for_estimated_width.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647629976)
My backstops rotate up. I welded a trailer jack to the frame and connected them all together with some 1" tube. Works great in the fact I can raise and lower all four from the end of the mill with one crank. What I don't like is the lack of support when trying to edge 4" board. The backstops are not very tall at that point. And trying to adjust them to be square to the bed is a whole nother matter in itself.
If I were to do that again I would try to find a way for them to go straight up and down with the same design single crank design. Probably be simple enough to do a worm gear with arms and linkage.
One more thing is the backstop adjust from the end of the mill is nice but I seen to want to have the crank about 6' from the end where I usually stand to clamp my logs in place.
I forget how tall I made the backstops but they are definitely taller than they need to be. I never have them all the way up.
Quote from: Cornerstone on March 18, 2022, 03:02:43 PMWould either of you care to point me in the right direction as to what will be the best back stop design right from the get go? I also could use some direction for a log dog design that is fool proof. I've seen several ways to skin that cat, just not sure which design works great that's not too complicated.
My log stops are 2.5"x2.5"x¼" tube that makes up one end of my log bunks. A piece of 2"x2"x¼" tube slides up and down in those with a large T-bolt to lock them in place. Just weld them up square and no other adjustments are ever necessary.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/150107_003.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1420700041)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/First_Cedar_2_20150930.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1443673741)
My first log dogs were these. They caused the cant to slide as you tightened them and sometimes caused them to lift.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171213_a.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513201217)
I stole this idea from another FF member. These are awesome. Just need to make sure the cam can go over-center so it locks in place. Make sure the duckbill is long enough to penetrate thick bark if you have that. These can exert enough force to split a piece of 2x stock!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171213_b.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513201621)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171213_c.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513201640)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20171219_c.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1513744553)
A shorter version turned sideways for holding anything smaller than 7" (minimum cut on the ones above.)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Side_Clamp.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1568767500)
Note the two pieces of 2"x2"x¼" tube welded at 90° to each other. The force exerted by the clamping action causes the slider to bind on the horizontal tube rail (2"x2"x¼") as well as the vertical clamp leg.
Also, my bunks are moveable to pretty much anywhere on my rails.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on March 18, 2022, 07:07:15 PMMy log stops are 2.5"x2.5"x1/4" tube that makes up one end of my log bunks. A piece of 2"x2"x1/4" tube slides up and down in those with a large T-bolt to lock them in place. Just weld them up square and no other adjustments are ever necessary.
My first log dogs were these. They caused the cant to slide as you tightened them and sometimes caused them to lift.
I stole this idea from another FF member. These are awesome. Just need to make sure the cam can go over-center so it lock in place. Make sure the duckbill is long enough. These can exert enough force to split a piece of 2x stock!
This sounds really good. Any chance you can show me a picture of this? I'll try to find what you're talking about and post a picture when I do. Basic, simple and solid is optimum.
You were too quick. I haven't found the way to include picture when doing a quoted reply. I have to post the reply and then go in and modify to add the pictures.
Ha! That's too funny, I just went through your entire photo album and pulled the same pictures while you were posting them. I've never been accused of being very patient...lol
These look like they will do the trick.
After going through your album, I've gotta say... You are a blessed man to live where you live. I don't think there's a single tree in all of Texas that compares with your average tree. Absolutely beautiful there. That's the one corner of the great U.S of A. that I've never been. Maybe even more pretty than Maine.
Thanks for taking the time ljohnsaw!
You're welcome, and thanks. I like the option here. I just have to put up with the stupid (political) factor and high taxes (also political!)
My mistake with my backstops, aside from forgetting to make them hydraulic controlled.. was putting them too far outboard on the bed. Thinking I'd want the log sitting as close to the fixed guide as possible. But you need a bit of room for lumps where limbs were, or bends, or a big round log overhanging the backstops slightly. I moved them in ~6" from the guide and they're good there.
Josh, I did the same thing. Made the same mistake. so instead of moving the backstops I shifted the head 2" out. Ended up working ok, but I still have times the guide wheel hits the log I am cutting. Makes it a lot more work.
One last question about back stops and log dogs. I see the EZ boardwalk design has both back stop and log dog on the same pivoting bar.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/EZ_Boardwalk_back_stop_and_log_dog_combined.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647711571)
They also have a separate back stop, (not sure if that's what they call it) mounted with no pivot. Like this...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/EZ_Boardwalk_back_stop_separate.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647711736)
What's your opinion on this way to do it? Is there any reason a guy would want the back stop in the up position and not want his log dog up at the same time? I've got a beautiful afternoon here to make these components and will wait to mount them. Again. I'd like to get it "right" the first time, if that's even possible. :D
For normal cutting of cants, the paired stop and dog looks like a good combination but never used something like that. For the abnormal (most of the time for me), it wouldn't work. When loading a log, I have the stops as high as they can go and I remove my dogs. Otherwise they would be in the way of placing the log. And, if you don't have your stops up, the log can will roll off the back side (don't ask me how I know that) ::) Also, I tend to remove my dogs when flipping a log/cant as I'm doing BIG stuff and I don't want a big ding in the cant if I drop on them.
With really, really big logs, I don't use the dogs but use a wedge to keep the log from rolling and the weight of the log (5k+) keeps it from moving when cutting. That is why I used ¼" steel tube for my stops and dogs - don't want to bend anything. I've slammed my backstops with a huge log more than once and haven't bent them yet. Though, I thought the whole mill was going to tip over!
I used 3/16 for wall thickness and have had the same flip over the mill issues :)
I didn't have 2x2x1/4 laying around so I went to the local used metal yard where I can get random pieces of steel for .45c /lb. They must have recently changed there hours because there were no office personnel to sell me what I needed, only the workers in the yard who just clean and organize on Saturdays. Bummer. So the guy tells me I should try another place a few miles down the road that I've never been to before. OK, lets give them a shot. The place hardly had anything in stock, but I did manage to walk away with a single 20' stick of 2x2x1/4 wall tubing. My jaw about hit the floor when I asked how much I owed the man. He said that'll be $207.82 I hate an unproductive Saturday, especially when the weather is perfect, so I reluctantly handed over my card. This single piece of steel cost so much we all better get a good look at it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/2x2_expensive_metal~1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647747569)
With all the honey do's interrupting me so many times this is all I got done on the log dogs so far.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Log_Dog_start.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647747930)
I guess some progress is better than none.
I know what you mean when I bought some tubing a little bigger than that 💰. When I bought my two sticks they were to expensive to cut it so they took it out to the street for liability reasons and I had brought my sawzall and knocked them down to 10' to haul in the truck. You really would have been banging your head if you would have gotten some plate steel
Nice job. I really like that 1/4 thickness tubing it is stout
Yeah, new steel is crazy expensive. Nice that you painted your log dogs but that will get rubbed / scraped off so don't let that get to you ;) The 2" you got looks like it has the nice round corners.
Now you have to find some 2½ that has nice round corners that it can fit. I lucked out on the first stuff I bought and it slid right in. Next time, not so lucky. You might end up have to grind your new log dogs down to fit. :-\
If you weld a nut for the set bolt to screw into, it is better to be on a corner. it is stronger and less likely to collapse inward and deform.
Plus putting it on the corner locks in diagonally so it can't twist.
Quote from: Crusarius on March 20, 2022, 10:59:38 AM
Plus putting it on the corner locks in diagonally so it can't twist.
Quote from: doc henderson on March 20, 2022, 03:44:11 AM
If you weld a nut for the set bolt to screw into, it is better to be on a corner. it is stronger and less likely to collapse inward and deform.
True, but I've not had either problem with my ¼" wall. Worst problem is a slight build up of rust binding things but a quick wipe with a file and all good.
I used .188 wall. Most of my connections were using 3/8" bolts and I just tapped the tube. The only time I added bolts was for fasteners larger than 3/8. I have had no issues with stripped threads. Even in the high load areas I was concerned about.
Nuts welded to the tube is a nice piece of mind but in a lot of cases not necessary. But it sure beats tapping thousands of holes :)
More interruptions today, One of our pregnant does gave birth. When I came home from church the doe had a still borne kid hanging half way out. I had to pull it out and the rest of the nasty stuff that's involved with giving birth, then clean up the doe a bit. I guess because it was so traumatic, the doe wouldn't let the one that was alive nurse at all. We put the doe into the milking station in order to keep her still and let the kid get her first meal. Hopefully the momma will warm up to her daughter and this will resolve naturally. I really don't want to have to bottle feed this kid for the next 2 months. It's cute for a few days, but then you realize how much it alters your schedule and it becomes inconvenient.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/baby_kid_goat.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647829113)
I only had 30 minutes before it got dark to mess this anything sawmill related. I only got a couple of holes drilled and a piece of 1/2 bar stock cut and drilled.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/log_dog_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647829262)
I hope I can get the chance tomorrow to build a lever with the cam on the end so this thing might work.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/log_dog_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647829326)
With an off-center hole and some clever grinding you could use some of the bar stock for the handle. No welding needed.
QuoteHopefully the momma will warm up to her daughter and this will resolve naturally. I really don't want to have to bottle feed this kid for the next 2 months.
Suspect the mother will accept the kid when some of her milk passes through the kid's system. The mother can then smell that it is her offspring. Doing the right thing getting some of her colostrum into the kid. Good luck.
Quote from: beenthere on March 20, 2022, 10:57:46 PM
Suspect the mother will accept the kid when some of her milk passes through the kid's system. The mother can then smell that it is her offspring. Doing the right thing getting some of her colostrum into the kid. Good luck.
Thanks for that beenthere. With 2 more expecting does I need all the advice I can get.
Had a couple of free hours and a bit of sunshine to get a little more headway on the dogs. These things could double as torture devices if ever needed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/log_dog_sharp_points~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648077940)
Those look really nice. Just a suggestion...you might consider making the spikes on the end shorter. The length of those actually reduce the diameter of the log that will fit between the backstop and clamp. You'd be surprised how often you will be fighting for another 1/2".
Naw, I think the point looks great the length they are! I don't think the OP stated what types of trees he's doing. If they are knarly or have thick bark, you need the long spike. I did notice that your cam and pivot bolts are pretty far apart. That will give you more clamping power but less throw. You might end up raising the lower bolt to give you more throw when you get some time on them.
Good point. Get some time on them. You can always refine later. I'm always refining something on my mill and I enjoy that just as much as milling, but that's just me...
Thank you gentlemen. I don't mind altering them. When I chose the shape of the points I was mainly thinking about the average tree on my property, which are knarly post oaks and live oaks... pretty thick bark.
I bet I'll end up taking the sharp tip off the end, seems like it'd make a pretty heavy divot in the lumber. I guess that depends on how hard the wood is. Like fluidpowerpro, I 'm sure I'll fiddle and tweak it just for the fun of it.
This brings up another thought I keep having. Where and how to get better wood than what's on my 18 acres. I'm sure there's another area on the board that will answer this question, along with the current ideas I have, like bring donuts and make arrangements with the local tree service guys, Craigslist ads, and after I get some time under the belt, make the mill mobile and offer cutting services.
Quote from: Cornerstone on March 24, 2022, 10:13:54 AMI bet I'll end up taking the sharp tip off the end, seems like it'd make a pretty heavy divot in the lumber.
My tips are around 1/2" or 5/8" wide with a wedge edge on them. Not real sharp. Yes, they do make a mark but I use them plain when starting out on the log with bark. When I'm down to a cant, I have some little scrap pieces of 1x that I slip between the point and the cant. The scrap gets a heavy dent in it and the cant stays pristine. Works real well as long as the edge is cross grain on the scrap. Otherwise, they make a pretty good wood splitter.
I put little shoulders on mine so that when I'm down to the cant I lay them right over and clip them barely on the edge, also means I can do a 20mm cut on the bed without hitting anything.
I had to shorten my points, they don't actually advance directly in like you imagine, they are rotating, so the longer the point is the more this effect of pulling downward as it advances is noticed
More good advice for the newbie. Thanks fellas. After a bunch of head scratchin' and 73.6 flap discs later we have log dog clampage action. Cam design required more brain cells than I had to offer in a single day, but luckily 8 hours of sleep provided more computing power to get it done.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/log_dog_cam_design.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648233547)
Now to add some paint and the pipe to the base.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/completed_log_dogs.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648233645)
Hey JoshNZ, would you mind clarifying what you mean when you added little "shoulders" to yours?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20201021_123956.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1603258233)
I found with the point just barely engaged on the bottom of the cant, the handle, bolt head, top of steel etc still stuck up quite a bit. This way you lay the whole assembly down and that little wing/shoulder catches the cant by only 5mm or so. Also bites into the underside of the log when layed over if you want to use it like that, sometimes when I'm slabbing I can get all the way down to the last ~6"without turning log
Quote from: JoshNZ on March 25, 2022, 09:17:09 PMThis way you lay the whole assembly down and that little wing/shoulder catches the cant by only 5mm or so.
A picture is worth a thousand words... Much obliged my friend. I can definitely see the value in this mod.
We've got a little bit of CAT yellow, Kubota orange, and Case IH red. I'll add the JoshNZ shoulders in due time.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/log_dogs_painted.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648440519)
UPS delivered Christmas in March... the Linn Lumber tensioner system. Looks like a quality piece! Now to build the saw frame...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/linn_lumber_tensioner.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648441369)
When I started researching which design I was going to build I think I flip flopped half dozen times. I knew I wanted it to be stout so I figured a 4 post design would be the best way. I got ahead of myself and decided to buy the steel before I had a final plan. I chose 2 1/2" tubing with 3/16th wall for the main trolley frame and saw frame, and 3" tubing with 3/16 wall for the parts that require sliding over the smaller tubing. In hind sight I think I would have been fine with smaller dimensions. I suppose the only drawback (that I can think of) is this thing is gonna be heavy. I really like the method that EZ Boardwalk uses to assist in the lifting of the saw head. They use a garage door spring that holds a large percentage of the weight so the force needed to crank it up is minimal. Obviously gravity handles the lowering part but the spring should allow for a controlled decent. I've still got a bunch of figuring to do on this design. Hopefully I can be patient and wait until I'm confident in the correct components to buy. I spoke to a garage door guy today about it and learned that the springs are rated buy the weight they can lift, so I'll need to get the saw head fully built with blade covers and get it weighed before I proceed. The guy was 3 sheets to the wind (schnockerd, inebriated, boozed up) so I wasn't able to get muck quality information out of him.
I'm building a knock off of the Linn Lumber saw frame but with a few changes. One being mounting the engine farther back, between the front and rear posts. Their design keeps the engine weight more forward. Today I only had a couple of free hours to get started on the saw frame and sliding tensioner. Here's where I'm at as of today. Does anyone see any glaring issues so far?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/saw_frame_with_slider_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648523868)
I still have several modifications to do on these pieces. One step at a time.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/saw_frame_with_slider.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648523874)
I just tacked the pieces together. The plan it to make sure I put everything in the right place so the tensioner will do it's job properly. I believe it has almost 2'' of travel.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/saw_frame_slider.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648523982)
One thing I do highly recommend is to watch the direction of the blade. When I built mine I went the way Linn said to and the engine is hanging way out the front. This makes the blade spin opposite of woodmizers. so when I order woodmizer blades I have to flip all of them before I put them on the mill. Then when I need to sharpenb them I need to flip them again.
It is not the end of the world but it would be nicer not to have to flip them.
Plus, with the engine hanging that much out in front it makes the lift point way off center and causes a good deal of bind on the threaded rods. I was trying to add a spring assist to mine but being that I only did 2 post and was running out of steel I was unable. One day I might add it still but that may be the day I build a new one.
Quote from: Crusarius on March 29, 2022, 09:51:35 AM
One thing I do highly recommend is to watch the direction of the blade. When I built mine I went the way Linn said to and the engine is hanging way out the front. This makes the blade spin opposite of woodmizers. so when I order woodmizer blades I have to flip all of them before I put them on the mill. Then when I need to sharpen them I need to flip them again.
This is something that has me puzzled. I really need to figure this one out and get it right from the get go. How frustrating would it be to build it thinking it will rotate a certain way but then in actuality it rotates the other. The Predator 22 hp says the shaft rotates counter clockwise. I need to verify my understanding of this. Do they mean when looking at it from the front cover of the engine or looking directly at the output shaft?
Looking at the plastic cover the shaft will spin clockwise. all of your sawdust will go clockwise. That is the direction mine is setup and it is backwards.
Instead of mounting the engine hanging off the front of the sawframe it should be hanging off the back. The good news is you do not have to worry about that until you are making your mounts to the mast. but very important to keep in mind. I tried to switch mine after the fact but that changed way to much so I abondoned the idea.
You also need to make sure the driven side is the fixed wheel or you need to make the entire engine slide with the tensioner.
And the blade needs to be pulled through the cut not pushed!!!! this one is critical!!!!
Feels good to see several of these parts pre assembled where they'll be permanently. Gives me new inspiration to git er done!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Assembled_saw_head_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648608544)
Looks great so far.
it looks like you are splitting the width of the wheels in half, what will be the resultant thickness you can cut above the blade? mine is 16 inches.
Quote from: doc henderson on March 29, 2022, 11:31:00 PM
it looks like you are splitting the width of the wheels in half, what will be the resultant thickness you can cut above the blade? mine is 16 inches.
Ya know I hadn't thought of that. In this pic I think there would be close to an 11" deep cut. I still need to add/ weld some steel plate under the pillow blocks to ensure there is enough material to ensure deep enough threads for the bolts to stay secure. If I want more depth to the cut I could make the steel plate thicker, lowering the blade even farther from the frame. I guess (in theory) a guy could drop it all the way down the entire diameter of the wheel, and open it all the way up to an 18.75" cut. Describing technical things is not one of my gifts... I have to read over what I'm trying to get across several times. When I need to make something, I usually half to draw it fairly close to scale before I can proceed. If You don't understand what I'm trying to get across I can illustrate it for you. I'm curious now so I may just see if the idea holds water.
What would be the reason you'd want to have such a deep cut anyway?
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on March 29, 2022, 10:57:59 PM
Looks great so far.
Sure appreciate the encouragement man.
Quote from: Crusarius on March 29, 2022, 10:18:12 AM
And the blade needs to be pulled through the cut not pushed!!!! this one is critical!!!!
Thanks for another nugget of wisdom Crusarius... I'll go ahead and admit it...this is stumping my pea brain again. I understand the principle easy enough, but since the blade is under such tension I would assume that would over ride the "pushing" issue. I'm just gonna have to take your word on this one. I guess the question is... how do I know if I'm pushing or pulling the blade? I'm just asking too much from my wore out grey cells tonight. Sleep is mere moments away.
Brian
Just a reminder to make sure you can adjust the position of the pillow block bearings because that is how you will adjust blade tracking.
Easy answer there (hopefully) is to put the pillow blocks on the bottom rather than the top like they are. That gets you half the wheel diameter + the height of the pillow centre (and if you're measuring the difference of how it is now, your beam thickness too) which should be heaps, I've never needed more than that. Further you take that centre from your beam the bigger the bending moment obviously
In looking at your pictures of the tensioning mechanism, I was wondering how you would take up any free play between the two sliding components.
To answer your question about pulling the blade. Lets say you are standing in front of the carriage, where the log would be. As the blade goes through the wood it moves from the left to the right. The points on the blade(the hook) point to the log so they can dig in and cut. Therefore, looking at the engine from this side, it would need to spin counterclockwise and also be on the right side to pull the blade from left to right.
You must pull the blade through the log. If you try to push it, you are relying on the sturdiness of the blade to overcome the force resisting it. That won't happen. It will bend and you will simply mash the blade into the side of the log every time. So in your picture of the preassembly, the wheels and their associated mechanisms need to swap ends.
Direction of rotation of an engine is always determined by looking at the rear of the engine, the business end. Standing behind your milling head, the engine should be to your left. Standing in front of the carriage, the engine spins in a counterclockwise direction which will pull the blade through the log.
As for the throat depth, you need to consider two things. The max diameter of the logs you want to handle and whether you want to quartersaw them. In this case I mean dividing the log into four quarters. This will require sawing the log in half and halves into quarters. At 11" cutting depth, you can handle a 21"-22" inch log.
you cut from the top usually, but if you wanted to take a big bite into a log. or if you were trying to trim to a cant, a log with bumps or limb stubs, the throat is what might limit you. when I am cutting 1x stuff, I cut repeated boards until the height of the stack gets too close to the blade or belt. I can raise the cutting (bottom) side of the blade 29 inches and have 16 inches on top of that. so, a log 45 inches in diameter will fit under the top side of the blade/gantry.
If you took 3 feet of a band blade, you could tow a car with it, but you could not push it. there is a static tension (setting with the saw off) and there are dynamic forces. there is a sweet spot where the blade tracks true and cuts flat lumber. pulling, the tension is maintained between the cutting part of the blade and the driven wheel. If pushing, the slack would occur between the driven wheel and the cut, and the cut would waver.
In all fairness, this is complex to talk about. We always tend to want more HP, cutting width and height. get what you can. The major manufacturers are always redesigning to get the most they can. you have a smaller R&D budget, and department. :)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/51041/05DD4E5D-EE25-4C13-9EB1-BDC215A7D7F8.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1646589856)
Everyone else beat me to the answer. Pushing the blade is like pushing a rope. just a little less dramatic. But I guarantee it will result in less than stellar lumber production but excellent designer firewood production :)
If you add block to get a deeper throat, like josh said you will have a larger moment on the frame. This means the frame will bow more. It probably will not matter in this application but over time it could bend and stay bent. It would just require realignment not a big deal. I did not add any extra spacers on mine and have only never run out of throat.
Quote from: JoshNZ on March 30, 2022, 01:56:12 AM
Easy answer there (hopefully) is to put the pillow blocks on the bottom rather than the top like they are. That gets you half the wheel diameter + the height of the pillow centre (and if you're measuring the difference of how it is now, your beam thickness too) which should be heaps, I've never needed more than that. Further you take that centre from your beam the bigger the bending moment obviously
Yes sir, In this pic the frame is upside down and nothing is bolted together yet. I think everything is going to work just fine based on reading all these other comments. By the way, Thanks to each of you for the help!
Ah, if you flip it over the configuration works. When you put the blade back on it should point in the proper direction. Good. Good.
Another beautiful day, but only 2 hours free. I was able to join the 2 sides of the carriage so now it's one piece. I used a few clamps to hold the 2 1/2 x 2 1/2 tubing in place. Made sure both sides were straight up and down vertical and the top piece level.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Trolley_one_piece.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648688414)
Yesterday I also installed the log dogs into the saw bed. The slide on a 2 1/2" pipe with 1/8" wall thickness. I only tacked them into place in case I want to relocate them after some use.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Trolley_one_piece_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648688646)
I'm feelin pretty good about tomorrows work list. The weather is supposed to be cool in the morning then partly cloudy with a high of 70. This is perfect working weather for these parts. Typically once things start turning green, we'll have a week or 2 (if we're lucky) then the oppressive heat falls on us and won't let up til October. Anywho... I hope I can squeeze out a good 8 hours of work on the saw. We shall see.
I hope you dont need to get your truck out of the garage anytime soon! :D
I was admiring the leaves on the trees. We wont be seeing those in my area for at least another month :embarassed:
make sure you triangulate the uprights. I did not originally and when I took the carriage off the rails I bent the legs in just enough the wheels were rubbing on the side of the rails.
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on March 30, 2022, 09:31:03 PM
I hope you dont need to get your truck out of the garage anytime soon! :D
I was admiring the leaves on the trees. We wont be seeing those in my area for at least another month :embarassed:
That truck has been in the same spot for 3 years. What was supposed to be a quick engine swap turned into a frame off full resto mod. Not one of my best decisions in hind sight, but it'll still be really fun when it's finally my daily driver. My Uncle bought it new as a long bed bare bones work truck in Ochre, or as I call it baby poop yellow. For years I couldn't stand the original color, and the fact it was a long bed, so when the wore out 350 needed a rebuild, I jumped in all the way and made all the changes I wanted if I were to have bought it new. I cut it down to a short bed, added AC and a ton of other goodies, dropped in a modern drivetrain with a 6 speed auto, and doing a full repaint in my favorite color.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/72c10.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1648694548)
In MN we call it Calf Scour Yellow.
Quote from: Crusarius on March 30, 2022, 10:15:55 PM
make sure you triangulate the uprights. I did not originally and when I took the carriage off the rails I bent the legs in just enough the wheels were rubbing on the side of the rails.
That's in the works as well. I want to make sure the angles won't interfere with the full motion of the saw head. Guys were telling me it was a good thing to be able to raise the saw head up really high in some circumstances. Once I'm satisfied with the height achieved I'll add the triangulated supports.
Thanks for all the advice! I'm really benefitting from everyone else's experience here. I hope to be able to return the favor someday. ;D
I ended up putting the triangles on the outside so it didn't interfere with raising the head.
I like the truck. Going to be super sweet when you get it done. I want to build a 41 willy's pickup with a bed mounted V8 :)
Thanks bud. Would you design it to be a crawler? You must enjoy wheelies as much as I do! running-doggy
I already have my rock crawler. I want something I can have fun with locally and not have to drive 4 hours to have any real fun.
Lookup 41 willys pickup, its not what you think :)
here is something I aspire to build. This thing is absolutely gorgeous.
drool (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vNWBoIYLKFI/maxresdefault.jpg)
Good weather and good results today. First thing I messed with were the sliders? that connect the saw frame to the uprights on the carriage. They are 2.5 x2.5 with 3/16 wall tubing, and needed a 1/4 plate welded to the sides so there will be enough material for bolt strength after a hole is drilled and tapped. Like so...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/sliders_in_progress_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648778429)
Cleaned up the welds a bit...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/sliders_in_progress_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648778528)
Then I cut some 2.5 x2.5 x1/4 angle iron into 10" pieces and clamped them to the sliders. Measured 3 or 4 times and cut the center bar once. Clamped it to the angle iron and checked for square and level, then tacked it all in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Slider_and_center_bar.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648778785)
I then took the opportunity to get a visual on where the blade will reside at the lowest setting. I clamped a couple of pieces of angle to the center bar and added some counter weights (3 cinder blocks) I think I may bring the front wheel closer to the carriage, doing so will allow me to bring the saw head closer to the carriage also. I don't know yet. If you can imagine the pillow blocks bolted on the bottom side of the frame that'll tell you where the blade will be if it were all assembled as is. I'm guessing the blade would ride about 2 inches from the saw bed. I'll measure that tomorrow. If ya'll could pick how close your blade can get to the bed what would you go with?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/pre_assembled_saw_side_view.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648779552)
I think you will want to get lower than 2". I have the bottom stops on my saw adjusted so the last board is 1.5". It will go lower but 1.5 works for me.
Been off-line for a few days. Looking real good. Glad you got the push vs. pull worked out as well as the throat depth. ;) As far as how close to the bed - I can touch mine if I so choose. If you are cutting 1" or less, that's how low you need to go. That means your log stops and dogs need to go that low as well.
You also want your blade to be as close to the uprights as possible. Any rocking front to back of your sliders (there will be a *little* bit) won't be magnified by the longer distance.
As far as max vertical height under the blade, you would target (at a minimum) the max diameter that can fit between your head uprights. And then, add some for bump and lumps in the log so you can move the saw head over the log back to the starting cut location when you've forgotten to do that *before* you loaded your log. ;) Been there, done that. Had to pull the blade off :-\
The max distance between the blade and your head frame will determine if you are able to get a lot or a small number of boards cut before you have to remove them. Or, how big a timber you can cut when getting multiple from a single log - like three 8x8's from a 24" cant. You need at least 8" of clearance - make sense?
I've found myself cutting 20mm boards often enough, sarking or cladding of some sort. I originally said I'd just remount the last board on top of another or whatever I can't remember how I talked myself out of getting it right the first time but I soon realised it needed to be modified so it could take the last board too.
Your wheels look a long way out from your frame. There is a reaction force from the band, that's all I'd say to keep in mind about that. It will be wanting to torque your carriage around its wheels a little, like that.
My hooks are just under 5/8" tall. If I really want to I can cut a 5/8" final board thickness. I typically do 1" boards but once in a while I need thinner. So the 5/8" clamp works well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20171126_174137.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1511895941)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20171126_174147.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1511895942)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20171126_174206.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1511895943)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45059/20180105_144017.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1515184735)
I got out there this morning and went to head scratchin'... Then it hit me.... instead of going through the tedious task of removing 6" of length from the front legs, then welding it all back together (and getting it straight), going through another 73.6 flap discs an 17 cutoff discs and who knows how many boo-boo's to my delicate tender yet manly flesh, what would it look like if I flipped the carriage around 180* and put the shorter rear legs in the front? Well, by golly I think it'll work! If I could go that way, I would only have to cut off the top cross bar and re-weld it to the new back of the carriage. Like Crusarius said I needed to add angles to stiffen up the carriage, I took his advice and temporarily added a second cross brace to keep everything from getting torqued and twisted when I picked it up with the skid steer. So, after a few minutes of trying to figure out why that plan was not feasible, I came up with only one thought, and it wasn't a big enough deal to fret over, so....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/flip_carriage_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648840470)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/flip_carriage_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648840035)
You may have noticed I also flipped the sliders upside down in this pic. This will get me lower to the saw bed even more... not sure how close yet. I'll be back out on it soon and figure that out. For that matter, now that I'm looking at the picture, I could also flip the center bar over to get the saw head even lower. I have to remember the track/ rails are sticking up above the saw bed by probably an inch, so I may add some height to the bunks to raise the bed up just above the rails. In addition to that, since I now know what way the blade is going to throw sawdust, I'm glad I only tacked the log dog support pipe, because those need to be flipped as well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/flip_carriage_side_view.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648840374)
On a side note what do ya'll think about starting a thread where we all show the bodily damage done to ourselves by ourselves? Obviously some discretion would be in order here but it may act as a warning to future sawyers. I've currently got 3 nice ones I could reveal right now! Seems like not a day goes by without me springing a leak. :laugh:
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 01, 2022, 03:23:32 PMIn addition to that, since I now know what way the blade is going to throw sawdust, I'm glad I only tacked the log dog support pipe, because those need to be flipped as well.
? Why not rotate your trolley 180°? Then you wouldn't have to redo the log dogs and stops.
On mine, since the log bunks hold both the stops and dogs, and are moveable, they were a simple 180° flip when I decided to change the cutting direction on my setup.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 01, 2022, 04:48:52 PM
? Why not rotate your trolley 180°?
I'm glad someone's paying attention! Am I correct in saying I would just need to start at the other end of the track? I'd need to spin the trolley back around and start sawing from what used to be the end of the track, then the dogs would not need to be cut and flipped.
Keep it coming guys! 8)
Also keep in mind the more you lower the sawframe the less up travel you have. its a fine balance.
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 01, 2022, 05:50:50 PMAm I correct in saying I would just need to start at the other end of the track?
Yes!
I don't know how you keep making progress with all your flip-floppin and back trackin! :o ;D :D
Also, if your saw head is wider than your rails, you better have bunks that raise the log higher than the rails or you will be stuck with that final thickness in the last part of the cant and you will also damage your rails guaranteed. Your mill head height mechanism should not allow the blade to go even with your bunk height. Keep yourself out of trouble.
Quote from: rusticretreater on April 01, 2022, 06:36:33 PM
I don't know how you keep making progress with all your flip-floppin and back trackin! :o ;D :D
Also, if your saw head is wider than your rails, you better have bunks that raise the log higher than the rails or you will be stuck with that final thickness in the last part of the cant and you will also damage your rails guaranteed. Your mill head height mechanism should not allow the blade to go even with your bunk height. Keep yourself out of trouble.
I can tell you how. The generosity and shared wisdom offered right here by friendly sawyer enthusiasts. I think I probably have ADD if one believes in that sort of thing, so my mind and thoughts jump around like water in a hot skillet. It's often difficult for me to settle on a decision when there are so many future factors depending on the present decision. I've received clarity by observing other builds, and asking questions. Every singe response I've got has been helpful at keeping me focused enough to make progress. Thank y'all very much.
My bill is in the mail :D
Glad I gave you enough enthusiasm to type that entire paragraph with no issues. I might ADD that your sawmill is looking mighty fine. 8)
Quote from: Crusarius on April 02, 2022, 10:27:23 AM
My bill is in the mail :D
Starting today, I'm doubling your current pay. ;D
Quote from: rusticretreater on April 02, 2022, 12:17:50 PMI might ADD that your sawmill is looking mighty fine. 8)
Why thank you Mr. Rusticretreater.
Let me share my most recent snafu. The sliding part of the saw head didn't want to slide smoothly all the way up against the hydraulic cylinder. The weld had pulled it wonky so it wasn't straight, and would bind some. Luckily I had only tack welded it so cutting it apart was easy. I gave it a second shot, this time I filled the gaps between the tubing evenly with thin strips of cardboard, to take up all the slack and center the frame within the slider. Like so...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/re_welding_the_slideing_tubes_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648931415)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/re_welding_the_slideing_tubes.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648931587)
I gave it 4 tacks on each side then pulled the cardboard out and checked it. Slid in and out smooth as butter. I gave it half a dozen more stich welds and rechecked it once more, and she still slid effortlessly. Then I go and give it the full weld treatment and pretty it up as best I can. Weld holes, flap disc it smooth, rinse, repeat til it looks paint worthy. Before I painted it I figure I'll slide it on one more time to fully appreciate my high dollar metal fabrication skills. Like the good book says, pride comes before a fall... the darn thing only slid on a little past half way and grabbed tight. One step forward, two steps back. The thing warped again during the final welding. The difference was nearly 1/4"! I thought I covered my butt repeatedly to keep it from happening again, but NOPE.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/bent_tensioning_slider_tubes.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648932676)
Total bummer. I start thinking how am I gonna fix this thing... I guess I have to cut it apart AGAIN. Then a rare stroke of genius occurred, and I figured this out with a simple fix. Like so...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/fixing_bent_slider_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648932909)
Crisis avoided. On to the next hurdle.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/fixing_bent_slider_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1648933038)
I cranked on the nuts and spread it open to get the needed room so it'd work again. All that was left to do was cut off the big honkin' bolts, clean it up and rattle can that baby red.
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 02, 2022, 05:00:53 PMAll that was left to do was cut off the big honkin' bolts, clean it up and rattle can that baby red.
Maybe, but I bet it will spring back a little bit - enough to bind it up! I'd cut a little spacer to sit right behind the bolts and weld that in there.
Then, go a head and cut the bolts out. Doesn't need to be too much, maybe a piece of 3/16" or 1/4" plate.
In your dimensioned picture above, did you do the final weld on the right side or left side of the cross piece first? Just curious for future reference. I'm thinking you did the left (inside) weld first.
ljohnsaw, this slider is for tensioning the bandsaw blade. The sawband wheel fits in the slot so it must remain open.
Too much pressure used to spread the fingers might damage the metal at the point the pressure is applied and make the entire length a bit curved. There is not enough pressure there to stretch the cross bar at the other end to bring everything into alignment.
I favor a pressure relief cut in the crossbar at the other end(almost all of the way through starting from the outside edge), then gently forcing the fingers apart to get the proper spacing while the metal is at rest. This should cause the remaining metal in the crossbar to bend as a hinge and the gap in the relief cut to take up the distance by narrowing.
Then clamping it at the precise angles needed to make the proper spacing at both ends and then rewelding the relief cut closed.
Quote from: rusticretreater on April 02, 2022, 10:44:36 PMljohnsaw, this slider is for tensioning the bandsaw blade. The sawband wheel fits in the slot so it must remain open.
Dooh!
My apologies guys, I was able to get it straightened back out the first attempt. I wasn't clear in the last post. I knew the metal would spring back like ljohnsaw said so I opened up the bolt on the threads a bit more than needed, to compensate for that. I then took the tension off by totally loosening the bolt spreader and gave it a try, it worked perfectly so it was at that point I felt ok with cutting the big honkin' bolts off. Initially I was concerned that the tubing would just bend where the pressure from the spreader was applied, then I had the idea to use two bolts and catch both corners of the tubing where there would be more structural integrity. To my surprise it straightened right out in the correct area. The full length of the walls are true. The measurements that were almost a 1/4" off are now nearly identical. I think it actually stretched the weld that brought the legs closer together.
The Linn Lumber sawframes use nuts welded on the sliding tubes and bolts to take up the slack between in the OD of the inner and ID of the outer slide tubes. Do you plan on doing something along those lines?
Quote from: OH_Varmntr on April 03, 2022, 08:02:13 AM
The Linn Lumber sawframes use nuts welded on the sliding tubes and bolts to take up the slack between in the OD of the inner and ID of the outer slide tubes. Do you plan on doing something along those lines?
I do. That's one of the details I intend to address when I get a better set of drill bits. I've been re sharpening the same bits for years with a drill Dr. kit. For use in wood it works alright, but a freshly sharpened bit used on steel is pretty lackluster.
Quote from: OH_Varmntr on April 03, 2022, 08:02:13 AM
The Linn Lumber sawframes use nuts welded on the sliding tubes and bolts to take up the slack between in the OD of the inner and ID of the outer slide tubes. Do you plan on doing something along those lines?
I used nylon bolts for that application, works well and does not mar the tube.
Cornerstone, you are full welding a lot that does not need to be full welded. The slidey part did need full welding, good job on the fix. I don't know where I got the skill but I have been pretty lucky knowing where to apply heat and how to straighten things back out.
That is one skill that is invaluable in welding. you learn where to weld then where to counter weld to keep everything straight.
when you weld one point the heat will shrink that section as it cools. Pulling everything towards the weld. If you then put a larger weld on the opposite side it will pull back. If you balance it just right you will not have to straighten anything again. It is a fine art that many do not possess.
Quote from: Crusarius on April 03, 2022, 10:52:01 AM
1.I used nylon bolts for that application, works well and does not mar the tube.
2.Cornerstone, you are full welding a lot that does not need to be full welded. The slidey part did need full welding, good job on the fix. I don't know where I got the skill but I have been pretty lucky knowing where to apply heat and how to straighten things back out.
That is one skill that is invaluable in welding. you learn where to weld then where to counter weld to keep everything straight.
3.when you weld one point the heat will shrink that section as it cools. Pulling everything towards the weld. If you then put a larger weld on the opposite side it will pull back. If you balance it just right you will not have to straighten anything again. It is a fine art that many do not possess.
1. I remember in your thread you mentioned nylon bolts.... Good idea I might use as well.
2. I know I'm welding more than needed, truthfully its just for aesthetics.
3. I wonder if I would have welded on the far end of the slidey part if it would pull the pieces back apart? In other words straighten in back into shape by welding opposite the side that pulled the legs together.
Anywho... new dilemma of the day to gripe about. I had a sneakin suspicion tapping all the holes needed was going to be problematic. First hole went like this...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Broken_tap.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649035001)
I didn't have the proper thread cutting fluid so I used a light oil for lubricating hydraulic tools. I don't know if that helped or hindered, but it snapped like a twig under foot. I used the BFH and a cold chisel to break the tap into pieces to remove it. Then re drilled with the proper bit and gave another tap a try. One hole down... umpteen more to go.
I did have a bit of problem free success with the carriage keepers today, so that's cool.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/keepers_pre_paint.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649035964)
I cut the head off of a 3/8" bolt and welded it to the carriage. Then whittled these L shaped brackets from some 4" 1/4 wall angle iron with the trusty chop saw.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Keepers.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649036236)
Not too shabby for a Sunday afternoon. Plus I managed to squeeze in my traditional after church nap. Life's good in springtime here in Texas
Those keepers have kept my head on the rails a few times. :o
you should add another bolt to them. I only have 1 in mine because I did not have enough space for more. The angle will twist over time and lock the head against the rails.
Looking real good though.
Quote from: Crusarius on April 04, 2022, 09:50:02 AM
you should add another bolt to them. I only have 1 in mine because I did not have enough space for more. The angle will twist over time and lock the head against the rails.
Looking real good though.
I thought about that before I drilled the holes. If the do twist and bind I've got a different idea I'd rather try than add another bolt to each keeper. Thanks for the compliment!
Just drill a small hole and press a dowel pin into it that way you don't need to tap or weld. just needs enough not to rotate. a tiny roll pin would work great.
Fairly productive day piddling with various components of the mill. I got about 12 holes drilled and tapped before I broke the last tap I had on hand. Amazon will bring another 3 along with some Tap Magic fluid tomorrow.
I figured out where the platform for the sawhead should go to get the blade closer to the saw bed. It will be within an 1 inch when it's at the lowest position.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Center_bar_pre_paint.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649124459)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Front_view_at_lowest_setting.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649124554)
This picture shows the how close the drive wheel is to the carriage. Hopefully the placement and weight of the engine will offset the weight of the sawhead so there won't be too much twisting affect to the upright it slides on.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Top_view_drive_pulley.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649124635)
Looks good.
I suggest adding an adjustable stop on the bottom, one on each side, to adjust your lowest position. That way you can adjust it to a predetermined thickness. The stop can be as simple as a bolt thru a nut welded to an angle iron thats welded to the sliding portion of the head. The bolt hits the wheel carriage somewhere at the bottom and that determines the lowest position.
Where did I post that pic of the eccentric head stop? I used a piece of 1" round stock with a hole drilled off center. Set the head to the lowest point and rotated the eccentric till it hit the bottom of the slides and tightened the bolt. it has not moved since. Works great.
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on April 04, 2022, 10:40:27 PM
Looks good.
I suggest adding an adjustable stop on the bottom, one on each side, to adjust your lowest position. That way you can adjust it to a predetermined thickness. The stop can be as simple as a bolt thru a nut welded to an angle iron thats welded to the sliding portion of the head. The bolt hits the wheel carriage somewhere at the bottom and that determines the lowest position.
Right on... That's in the works too. The way you described it sounds like the way EZ Boardwalk makes theirs. It's a simple and effective way to fine tune where the sawhead rests at full stop.
Moving on to engine placement. In these pics the drive belt will line up with enough room to spare. I was hoping to have the engine centered in the frame and farther back, my thinking was to balance the weight better. What's the general consensus on this set up as is? I suppose the fuel tank, lube tank and battery could be placed in strategic areas to accomplish what I thought was important.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Motor_placement_from_front~1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649174338)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Motor_placement_from_back.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649174366)
With your engine there how is your lift height. I ran into problems there. part pof the reason I ended u hanging it so far off the back. definitely not ideal.
Plus I get a good deal of bind in the threaded rod because I am lifting an off center load.
If I got it right the lift height measured 42". My track is 41.5 wide so I guess that'd be sufficient. If higher is way better I can try to figure a way to mount the engine beneath the saw frame. The main problem with that is the output shaft won't line up with the drive pulley. I could get around that with another shaft with pulleys on both ends held down with a pair of pillow blocks, (is that what they call a jack shaft?) but now it'd be getting more complicated and more crap to maintain and wear out.
That will work as is. I ended up not having the muffler on my model and that bit in in the butte. I had to offset the engine further back to clear the muffler.
That muffler looks like it will be a pain. Literally. It will need a cover to keep you from inadvertently putting your hand there for balance or bumping into it. Will it discharge opposite the side you plan to be on? Maybe a vertical tail pipe is in order. That would give you more clearance at the front and you could wrap the pipe for safety.
The closer the engine is to the pulley, the less belt stretching, vibrating and slipping it will do. A battery and full lube tank is gonna weight a pretty good amount. Also take into account how much the tensioning mechanism and sliding blade guide arms will weigh(if you plan on one). On my Woodland Mills machine the engine is to one side, the battery, tensioner and sliding blade guide are on the other. The lube tank is at the top and centered on the head. So your setup so far looks like it is heading in the right direction.
Since my exhaust was point straight at me when milling I added a J to it so it point out the opposite direction now. It worked wonders for inhalation :)
If you do it right, by adding more pulleys you can change the blade speed to optimal and also add torque in the process making a stronger performing saw.
Quote from: rusticretreater on April 05, 2022, 07:20:11 PM
If you do it right, by adding more pulleys you can change the blade speed to optimal and also add torque in the process making a stronger performing saw.
Interesting. Care to elaborate? What is the optimum blade speed and how would I determine that?
There's a calculator in the forum tools section. From memory you're aiming for 4500-5500 feet/min of linear band speed, so you figure out the circumference of your band wheels and an optimum RPM for them from the above figure, and work backwards from there.
My engine sat around 3600rpm and I had to use a jackshaft to get the band down slow enough. My clutch was what it was, 6" or so, so to gear it down enough in one wrap I needed a 19" driven pulley or something, same size as band wheels. Was too expensive to buy a third one and it also put the drive belt too far into the throat for my liking. I also had to go double sheaved pulleys, so there's 4 belts in my drivetrain, and 8 pulley sheaves, which wasn't cheap either. Originally it was a single B belt drive but it just smoked the belt.
Me being me, I shot for the top end of the optimum range too. I've actually since dropped my governor spring back a hole to bring the engine rpm down and find things go a lot better like this.
This tool is super handy. I wanted one for a specific project I had that needed a bunch of holes cut into 1/2" and thicker plate steel. It's called a mag drill, and it has an electromagnet built in it. You place it on the surface you want drilled, then turn on the electromagnet and It'll hold tightly against the surface while you crank down on the drill. You can even drill upside down and the magnet will hold. Same thing as a drill press but with a crazy strong magnetic base built right in. I cut these 3/4" holes in less than 15 seconds each. It uses a circular bit called an annular cutter, similar to a hole saw. I got lucky and found this cheapy version on Craigslist for $75.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Magdrill.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649210528)
Leaves a very clean hole.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Magdrill_hole.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649210560)
This pile of shavings came from only 4 holes. I bet this is how they make steel wool!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Steel_wool_from_magdrill.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649210608)
Ive always wanted one of those but always more than I wanted to spend. $75 is a great deal.
Quote from: JoshNZ on April 05, 2022, 09:41:35 PM
There's a calculator in the forum tools section. From memory you're aiming for 4500-5500 feet/min of linear band speed, so you figure out the circumference of your band wheels and an optimum RPM for them from the above figure, and work backwards from there.
. Originally it was a single B belt drive but it just smoked the belt.
Thanks Josh... I see I have a lot to learn. :P The engine I've got says it's 22 HP so I'm hoping the clutch I've already got (originally for a 13 HP) will hold.
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 05, 2022, 10:07:52 PMThis tool is super handy.
SWEET! Send it out here now that you''re done and I'll test it some more for you. :)
Ljohn, wouldn't you at least pay the shipping one way?
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 05, 2022, 10:15:31 PM
Quote from: JoshNZ on April 05, 2022, 09:41:35 PM
There's a calculator in the forum tools section. From memory you're aiming for 4500-5500 feet/min of linear band speed, so you figure out the circumference of your band wheels and an optimum RPM for them from the above figure, and work backwards from there.
. Originally it was a single B belt drive but it just smoked the belt.
Thanks Josh... I see I have a lot to learn. :P The engine I've got says it's 22 HP so I'm hoping the clutch I've already got (originally for a 13 HP) will hold.
I bet you a dollar it won't lol. Mine was rated for 25hp from memory, on a 22hp engine. If I do repeated short cuts powering back each time for too long it glazes up and starts to slip. Same thing has happened when I've let friends use it who have not handled the throttle sensibly. A tensioned band system is quite a mass to get turning.
You want to find the HP and Torque charts for your engine and select an rpm on the right side of the torque hump a bit down from the peak. That way when the engine slows down a bit from contacting the log face, the torque will increase as the rpm slows. Once you find that number, then you will have another part of the equation. Usually this will be around 2800 rpm, but every engine is different. A quick check after looking at a pic of your engine, a 670cc V-Twin Predator makes peak torque of 45nm @2500. The engine red-lines at 4000rpm, so a good rpm choice would be around 3000-3200.
So when you calculate your blade speed and pulley sizes, you need your engine to be running above the torque peak rpm when your blade fpm is where you want it.
Sorry, but your clutch will burn out in short order.
I got a set of annular cutters I use in my mill. after using one to cut a 1" hole I said I would never got back to using drill bits again. they are amazing just the cutter.
I no need to make a plug extractor that will fit into the R8 collets so I don't have to take it out when I have a stubborn plug.
Hey Crusarius... Tell me where you got your clutch and double pulley for your drive wheel please. I've been made aware that my engine will smoke my drive belt and most likely burn up the single belt clutch as well. :(
I ordered it through Linn Lumber. you need a 1" bore pulley instead of the one he has on his site. But it is just a go-cart clutch. I think it cost $400. was not cheap but I like the centrifugal clutch better than electric or moving belt.
I'll gladly accept pointers on where to find what I'll need to turn this blade. I've been searching for "2 groove clutch with 1 inch bore" and "2 groove 14 inch drive pulley" with no luck. Thanks in advance if you choose to do my homework for me. :D
Linn Lumber has it all. Just call him. It may cost a little more but, in the end, will be worth it.
Quote from: Crusarius on April 06, 2022, 01:00:31 PM
Linn Lumber has it all. Just call him. It may cost a little more but, in the end, will be worth it.
Like the tensioner... smiley_thumbsup
Cornerstone- That is a nice drill. I used to use them for drilling truck frames back in the fire truck building days. As for the steel wool. I always thought it came from hydraulic rams. ???
Quote from: Gere Flewelling on April 06, 2022, 04:20:10 PM
Cornerstone- That is a nice drill. I used to use them for drilling truck frames back in the fire truck building days. As for the steel wool. I always thought it came from hydraulic rams. ???
Thanks! I was searching high and low for one that wasn't over 300 bucks. The cheapest I found for a new one was 319. then there would be shipping costs on top. I just couldn't do it. Generally I'll look for used stuff on most everything I buy, so I noticed one on Craigslist but the add had no price, it just said make offer. Since it was a no name brand and obviously 100% chinesium, I sent him an offer for $75, not expecting anything. 2 weeks later the guy said he'd take the 75. Total luck.
Maybe steel wool comes from steel sheep? Man that's dumb...
Cornerstone, when was the last time you slept? :)
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 06, 2022, 08:53:27 PM
Quote from: Gere Flewelling on April 06, 2022, 04:20:10 PMThanks! I was searching high and low for one that wasn't over 300 bucks. The cheapest I found for a new one was 319. then there would be shipping costs on top. I just couldn't do it. Generally I'll look for used stuff on most everything I buy, so I noticed one on Craigslist but the add had no price, it just said make offer. Since it was a no name brand and obviously 100% chinesium, I sent him an offer for $75, not expecting anything. 2 weeks later the guy said he'd take the 75. Total luck.
Maybe steel wool comes from steel sheep? Man that's dumb...
I had one of those at one shop I worked in and I loved it. We bought it for a job we had to run 3" holes through a steel table top. I could whack that thing onto a beam and pop in holes to slide conduit through and other things. It sucked if the power failed and the magnet dropped out though on vertical surfaces. :D
I tried to borrow it a couple of years ago to fix a problem I could solve no other way and found out they finally had burned it out and not replaced it yet. Sweet tool with a geared motor drive. Very powerful, but you gotta make sure that magnet has a good flat and firm grip. You got yourself a winner there. They are dang handy.
Quote from: Crusarius on April 06, 2022, 08:54:41 PM
Cornerstone, when was the last time you slept? :)
Rolled out of the sack at 8 and should be back in at 11. Anything else?
So I've learned a few things. Chris at Linn Lumber suggested I run the clutch I already have. He said he has 100's of customers who use the predator 22 hp with his single groove clutch with no problems. If my clutch burns up I could buy his. So I think I'm just gonna move forward and run what I brung.
I had a question for EZ Boardwalk owners. Each of their models has this lever that engages the belts. See pic. Does their design even have a clutch? In one pic on their website I can see the pulley on the engine does have 2 belts, but I can't tell if it's just a pulley or a clutch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/InkedEZ_Boardwalk_clutch_laver_design_2_LI.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649348275)
Finally, I discovered my drive wheel is only 11.75" in diameter. Chris also suggested to run it and wasn't sure what that would do to the blade speed, but thought it might speed it up. They run a 19" band wheel, a 14" drive wheel and a 4" clutch on their saws with good success.
So it turns out that buying his blade tensioner is paying off in other ways. Lots of free advice.
You can get the double groove clutch from ( Carroll Stream Motor company ) fairly reasonable ,and they are good to deal with on engines also.
All other things being equal, reducing a driven wheel in size from 14" to 11" will speed it up.
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 07, 2022, 12:18:34 PM... Finally, I discovered my drive wheel is only 11.75" in diameter. Chris also suggested to run it and wasn't sure what that would do to the blade speed, but thought it might speed it up. They run a 19" band wheel, a 14" drive wheel and a 4" clutch on their saws with good success.
A 4" clutch doing 3600rpm is doing 1150m/min at circumference. A 14" driven wheel doing 1150m/min at its circumference is doing 1030 rpm, and a 19" band wheel doing 1030 rpm is doing 1560m/min at its circumference or 5120fpm, if you follow that math... Easier for me to do it all in metric, being of the sane type and all.. fishin-smiley
If your driven wheel is 11.75" and all other things are the same, 1230 rpm at the band wheel you will end up with a band speed of 6120fpm at your band. If you run your engine on the lower governor setting and count on it bogging some you may end up back down in the high end of the sweet spot. But as mentioned already you can play with those pulley sizes to acheive exactly what you want.
There are tables that show how much horsepower/torque you can transmit through each belt profile given the distance/diameter/wrap at each pulley. Without looking at one my gut says a single B pulling 22hp off a 4" pulley is begging for trouble.
Quote from: JoshNZ on April 07, 2022, 04:36:55 PM
A 4" clutch doing 3600rpm is doing 1150m/min at circumference. A 14" driven wheel doing 1150m/min at its circumference is doing 1030 rpm, and a 19" band wheel doing 1030 rpm is doing 1560m/min at its circumference or 5120fpm, if you follow that math... Easier for me to do it all in metric, being of the sane type and all.. fishin-smiley
If your driven wheel is 11.75" and all other things are the same, 1230 rpm at the band wheel you will end up with a band speed of 6120fpm at your band. If you run your engine on the lower governor setting and count on it bogging some you may end up back down in the high end of the sweet spot. But as mentioned already you can play with those pulley sizes to acheive exactly what you want.
There are tables that show how much horsepower/torque you can transmit through each belt profile given the distance/diameter/wrap at each pulley. Without looking at one my gut says a single B pulling 22hp off a 4" pulley is begging for trouble.
Thanks Josh, that helps seeing it laid out like that. I'm glad someone in the room is sane... ;D
Based on the Cooks Sawmill video presentations on blade speed, 6120fpm is too fast by over 1000fpm. They suggest +/-5000fpm. If that's the case it would make sense to go with a 14" drive wheel, and If I'm spending money on another wheel, the safe route would be to get one with 2 belts. I did come here to avoid mistakes right?
I have other areas I can work on in the mean time. The lift system for one, the current plan is to use a garage door spring to hold the weight of the mill and let gravity do the lowering. I think I have enough information from pictures of the EZ boardwalk 40 to make it work. My only question at this point is what spring should I get. I believe they are rated by the amount of weight they can lift, so if that's the case I'll need to weigh all of the saw head components separately then add them up to get a total weight. I plan on calling a garage door parts company and see what they recommend for a spring.
I went over to a friends house today to estimate some excavating work he needs to have done and while I was there he offered several large trees to me if I wanted them. One of them was this standing dead cottonwood :o. I've read that it's not a particularly desirable wood but decent for some applications.
It's next to a creek that has washed away most of the roots and its barely hanging onto the bank of the creek. It's almost 8' in diameter at the base and fairly straight for the first 25'
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Cottonwood_base.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649389104)
Quote from: dustyhat on April 07, 2022, 02:21:06 PM
You can get the double groove clutch from ( Carroll Stream Motor company ) fairly reasonable ,and they are good to deal with on engines also.
Thanks dustyhat. Their clutch is cheaper at $289. with free shipping. The description on their website says this:
Centrifugal Clutch Heavy Duty Double Groove 1" Bore With 1/4" Keyway or 1-1/8" Bore With 1/4" Keyway. Clutch is very universal it can be used on many different applications such as air compressors, saw mills, and more!
(https://www.carrollstream.com/Small-Engine-Shaft-Sleeve-s/276.htm)
- Power: Handles up to 24HP
- Work speed: 3600rpm
- Engagement speed:1900+-100RPM
- Belt Type: A and B type
- Pulley Diameter: 4-1/8"
- Drum Diameter: 5"
- Overall Depth: 3"
|
...
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 07, 2022, 11:41:45 PMIt's almost 8' in diameter
Are you sure about that? Or is it 8' in circumference (~ 2.5' in diameter)? It would be at least good for practice cutting.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 08, 2022, 12:12:04 AM
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 07, 2022, 11:41:45 PMIt's almost 8' in diameter
Are you sure about that? Or is it 8' in circumference (~ 2.5' in diameter)? It would be at least good for practice cutting.
I was shocked at the size of it. My friend said it was "at least 7" in diameter" and I thought he was fibbin' or he was thinking circumference... That's when I said "can I walk back there and see it?" In that picture I was about 20' away, it was on the opposite side of the creek I was standing by. The bark was crazy thick. The ruts in the bark were nearly 6" deep between the highs on the surface. I think It really was 8' John. Next time I go over there I will take pictures with my friend standing next to it for better perspective.
I've seen a couple that were 5 or 6' in diameter. Quite amazing. I do have a Ponderosa on my property that is 5' DBH and a number of cedars that are easily over 6' DBH. I will not be cutting those down! Here is one of the smaller, big guys. Looks pretty barren here but there is a full crown up top.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/19_For_scale_-_atv_is_4_foot_wide.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1368374946)
I only had a couple of hours to work on it today. I drilled and tapped a couple of holes and cut these out of 3/8" flat stock. I intend to add a nut to keep things tight. These were added to the driven side. Is there a reason I would need the same adjustability for the idle wheel side? Should I add them to that end as well?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/pillow_block_adjusters~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649465336)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/pillow_block_adjusters_installed.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649465382)
I also ordered a double groove clutch and 13.75" drive pulley that'll accept 2 belts. I'd rather not have to tear it apart to make changes, so play it safe and spend the time and money now to do it right. Not typical for me... I'm usually a rig it and run kind of guy.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/drive_wheel_shaft_from_above.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649465553)
Yes, you will need to adjust blade tracking on both wheels.
Yep, both wheels need tracking adjustment. My pillow blocks look like yours with the collar to hold the shaft. I had mine slip ever so slowly. Probably took all day to move a half inch or so. I had to grind a little divot for the grub screw to hold better. You probably should do the same.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 08, 2022, 11:52:56 PM
Yep, both wheels need tracking adjustment. My pillow blocks look like yours with the collar to hold the shaft. I had mine slip ever so slowly. Probably took all day to move a half inch or so. I had to grind a little divot for the grub screw to hold better. You probably should do the same.
Did you red lock tight the shafts before tightening the set screw? I got that from The Linn Lumber assembly video on YouTube. I might as well do both for double protection.
My pillow blocks I have one with a fixed chunk of steel welded on and the other three have the adjustable bolt. works fine for me.
As for shaft moving, I have never had an issue. But the divot is a good idea if you are worried. I tend not to want to use locktite on stuff like that because when you have to change a bearing it becomes a nightmare.
Keep in mind the shaft will probably rust a little and lock it in place really well.
Finished up the tracking adjusters on the idler wheel side today, so now all 4 pillow blocks have them. I also added adjustable lowering stops.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/adjustable_lowering_stops.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649544742)
Also cut out a plate for the engine to sit on but waiting until the 2 belt clutch arrives before I weld it to the frame. I'm thinking I'll need to raise it up about an inch or two in order for the drive belts to clear the carriage when at its lowest setting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Engine_placement.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649546324)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Engine_placement_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649546364)
Definitely make sure you can change belts with some room to spare.
I need to buy some more metal tubing for the bunks. What's the minimum thickness you feel won't bend under normal usage? Can I get away with 3/16 wall? The dimension will be 1.5"
3/16 will be fine. I used 2"x.188 and have tested the bed several times dropping big logs on the bed.
My bunks are moveable so how mine are actually made probably doesn't apply but I'll tell you anyhow ;). The bottom is a piece of channel steel that I think is 4" wide but they specify it by the pounds per foot. The uprights are 3" channel on both ends and an additional vertical piece of 2.5x2.5x¼ tube that is offset and houses the log stop. You can see the T-bolt at the right edge of the picture. The top cross pieces are one 2x2x¼ tube with a slider on it for log clamps and a piece of 2x2x¼ angle iron. I've dropped some BIG logs on them when they slipped out of my log tongs or rolled off the forks. Not harm, no foul. I even had a 16.5' log, probably 26" diameter slip and catch itself under the lower cross bar (2x4x3/16) and the 2x2x¼ tube on the bunk. A TREMENDOUS amount of force :o and didn't bend anything! 8)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/150107_005.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1420700042)
I pretty regularly cut 33' long by 30"+ logs that are mighty heavy and no sign of bending. For as little as you will be using, if you even think you might do some big logs, go with ¼" and you will never be sorry.
Thanks for confirming my thoughts guys, I'll go pick up the steel tomorrow.
Got the bunks installed without loosing any blood, so that's a win. I also got the log stop brackets made, and plan to get them installed tomorrow if the forecasted rain holds off.
I've been back and forth about the lift system. I want to run this idea by y'all and see why this isn't something I've seen yet. It's a cheap way to get it done if there's no reason why it won't work.
The winch cable would be attached at the top left side, the be routed via the arrows, through 4 idler pulleys and then straight into a battery powered winch. The only issue I can see at the moment is not having the ability to stop at exact points so each board is the same thickness. A bonus is that my winch has a corded in / out switch and a remote control switch too. I have a feeling you guys will enlighten me as to why this is not a good idea, so lay it on me... I can handle it. :) Pardon the crude drawing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/winch_lift_system_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649727870)
We had this same conversation before in another thread with a similar design. The method shown will not work well.
The supposition is that the cable will pull on both bottom pulleys evenly. This is not the case. Because there is one fixed point, as you pull on the cable, it will get its tightest from the fixed point to the first pulley. This will make a pivot point for the other pulleys. The mill head will immediately cant to the side with the fixed end. The pulling force of the winch takes up all the free play through the system before it can build up enough force to move that first pully. The opposite occurs when lowering the mill head.
Others can probably explain it better but if you look at every mill with steel cable, you will see they have a separate cable for each side which pulls directly from above.
Quote from: rusticretreater on April 11, 2022, 10:40:01 PM
Others can probably explain it better
That was very clear and logical. Glad I asked first!
you can run two cables each to the bottom of the gantry. or you can connect two pulleys with an axle, so they lift together. you can then also make adjustment bolts or eyes so the deck of the blade can be leveled. Mine uses a cylinder that attaches to chain that attaches to each side. one is longer than the other but the lift the same. with a cylinder you need hydraulic power, and the control can then be a valve. this is how my controller works with an encoder to measure distance in a digital way.
the winches I have had (cable type :o) do not start and stop on a dime. you may want to gear it down a bit to get more ability to stop where you want. easily done with pulleys and belts or gears and chain.
I have a 3500 lb winch on mine. Badlands from Harbor freight. It has a brake on it and so far, it stops when I want it too. I don't have tons of hours on it yet so I can't say for sure if it will continue to work,or get sloppy. You will want to make sure you use a pwm speed control otherwise it will be too fast. Docs suggestion of adding additional reduction will help in other ways because with the pwm control, if you turn the speed down really slow, it no longer has enough power to lower. Having a reduction will allow you to adjust really slow which makes hitting your mark on the log scale a lot easier.
Mine does work without a reduction, but it would be nice to have.
Thanks for the educated responses gentlemen. I came across The Log Father YouTube channel a while back and have been watching him enjoy his setup. It also is a Linn Lumber mill but he's made quite a few modifications, including not using their acme rod lift system. He got the idea from someone else so I don't know who to give credit to, maybe one of you guys have seen this design before, we'll see. Sorry for the crappy picture, I took a pic of a video from my laptop. The title of his video is in the top left corner of the pic, if you have difficulty understanding my explanation of what your looking at... check it out on YouTube.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Log_Father_lift.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649807255)
Behind the blue hand crank is a 14 tooth sprocket that turns the middle 40 tooth sprocket via #40 chain. Behind that, on the same shaft is a 16 tooth sprocket that turns the 72 tooth sprocket. Behind the large sprocket, on the same shaft are (2) 14 tooth sprockets on an axle that lifts the saw head from both sides via chain. The hand crank also has a brake function for the lift. He has a semi circle metal strap with "skateboard tape" fixed to it that's tensioned with a spring, pressing against the belt mounted on the hand crank pulley.
He uses his mill quite frequently, and says the design serves him well. I pulled the trigger and ordered all the components from Surplus Center and Amazon, about $250. for everything excluding the shafts which I already have. I'll have to reconfigure the placement of everything but I don't think that will be a hassle.
The Log Father also has a toe board design that's simple, cheap and durable, and I'm thinking I do the same on mine. Here's another lousy picture for your viewing pleasure....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Log_Father_toe_board.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649808617)
Just before the rain came I got one of the log stop brackets welded on and rattle canned it to keep the rust at bay. I think this basic design came from JoshNZ, so thank you sir. I fixed it so the blade rides above the sharp pointy teeth of the bracket by 3/16". Man we needed the rain and more of it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Log_stop_bracket.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1649808805)
Any comments or concerns on my plans, good or bad?
Very anxious to see what you come up with for the lift mechanism. I tried so many different things and just went back to the threaded rod cause it worked.
you could make rollers for the toe boards so you can roll cants and some logs to and fro. the direct control for the winch is ok, but the remote IR one has a delay to start and stop. I used my 12K to straiten some bent stuff on a grapple and once it went, almost went too far.
I had the opportunity to take a few days and head out to east Texas, also known as the piney woods. My brother in law just bought a cabin in the woods out there, and the plan was to go help him get the place in better shape. Leveling the pier and beam floor and assist with whatever I could. I didn't get much work done truthfully, but it was a great trip anyway. Where I live, in the Fort Worth area, is considered "where the west begins", and I'd bet a dollar we don't have a single tree that's over 75' tall... the average is more like 30' or 40'. Once your an hour east of Dallas that changes drastically. It was absolutely beautiful to see it in the springtime. My brothers place is just outside the first city ever established in Texas, Nacodoches. I took my 16 ' trailer in hopes of finding some saw worthy logs, and got exactly what I was looking for. I stopped by the Runquist sawmill in Mt. Pleasant to see if they would sell me some logs, and the owner Troy was glad to help. He filled my trailer with a sample pack for me to get my feet wet. I came home with red oak, white oak, cypress, cedar, sweet gum and a few smaller black walnut logs. Here are a few pictures of his outfit. Troy runs a great business and stays very busy.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Runquist_Mill_inventory.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650337762)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Runquist_Mill_Walnut_planks.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650337804)
Cool decorations in one of his inventory buildings.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Runquist_Mill_wall_decorations.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650337923)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Runquist_Mill_big_loblolly_pine.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650337970)
Just one of many log piles...
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Runquist_Mill_long_logs.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650338024)
I liked the saw tooth design on the siding over a new mill shed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Runquist_Mill_sawtooth_trim.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650338067)
He had a storage building with just beams in it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Runquist_Mill_beams.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650338110)
If your ever in the area, check out his operation!
That sawtooth building edge is pretty sweet.
Today I got started laying out the lift system. So far so good.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lift_system_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650338823)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lift_system_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650338854)
It should make more sense once the chain is on.
That's pretty cool he got you hooked up. Looks pretty interesting and sounds like you had a great trip 👍
Lift system works. I still need to install a crank handle. Tomorrow I plan to install the spring loaded brake and release handle. It looks to be about 2 cranks on the wheel will provide an inch of lift, but I haven't measured yet. I still need to add gas and lube tanks, blade guides and a battery, and blade guards of some sort. In spite of all that remains, it feels like I'm on the home stretch now.
I welded this 1" shaft to the base of the frame under the sawhead.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lift_system_lower_gear_shaft.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650510256)
Slid a 14 tooth idle gear on it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lift_system_lower_gear.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650510349)
Here's a top view of the gear reduction lift system. The lift chains that attach to the sawhead are not installed in this picture.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lift_system_top_view.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650510472)
Here the sawhead is fully raised.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lift_system_fully_raised_saw_head.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650510629)
In this picture you can barely see how the lift chain attaches to the sawhead.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lift_system_fully_raised_saw_head_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650511153)
That looks really nice.
yes, it looks like your creation will have life!
I would love more detail on the chain lift. Definitely better pics and maybe a routing sketch.
For gas tank I just made a shelf and a hose for a 5 gallon can. makes filling much easier. Just pull the empty off and put a full on :)
Quote from: Crusarius on April 21, 2022, 10:13:44 AM
I would love more detail on the chain lift. Definitely better pics and maybe a routing sketch.
For gas tank I just made a shelf and a hose for a 5 gallon can. makes filling much easier. Just pull the empty off and put a full on :)
Ask and ye shall receive. If you need any measurements or more pictures just ask.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Lift_gear_system_from_above_.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650585356)
Added a turnbuckle to tension chain.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Lift_system_from_side.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650585401)
This is what I came up with to attach the sawhead to the chain. The self tapping screws are temporary. I'm looking to find a hardened pin that's only 3/16 to replace them with. I can use 3 on each side, they fit between the links.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lift_chain_attachment_point.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650585455)
Pivot point for the brake.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/brake_pivot_point.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650585594)
This pic shows the brake disengaged.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Brake_open.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650585627)
Brake tension spring, repurposed from an old screen door.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Brake_spring_to_frame.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650585692)
Handle I took off a tractor steering wheel I don't own anymore. It's got roller bearings in it so it's very smooth to crank.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lift_handle.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650585879)
I welded a 1/2 bar to the pivoting brake shaft. push against it and the sawhead drops from plain ol' gravity. I'm very pleased with the functionality and ease of use this set up provides.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Brake_handle.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650586025)
Spring attached to the brake to maintain a bit of pressure.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Brake_spring_attachment.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650586635)
Now I need to get everything painted. My belts came in today so now I can position the engine for a permanent mount.
Here's a question for y'all... I see fuel tanks and lube tanks are usually mounted on the sawhead on most designs. I'd like to mount it on the stationary part of the trolley up high and allow enough tubing to be able to supply the engine at any height. Reason being it would be less weight to lift with every cut. Is there any reason why this is a bad idea?
Instead of finding hardened pins, you could just use some socket head cap screws. Most all of those are grade 12, so pretty hard...
Is the turnbuckle connecting 2 ends of the chain?
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on April 21, 2022, 08:45:50 PM
Instead of finding hardened pins, you could just use some socket head cap screws. Most all of those are grade 12, so pretty hard...
Is the turnbuckle connecting 2 ends of the chain?
Great idea bud. I'll do that, thank you.
Yes, the turnbuckle ends are too big to fit inside the gaps of the #40 chain, so I used a couple of those carabiners that close with a threaded nut to connect to the chain. They were rated to handle 650 lbs. each. The turnbuckles are the weak link I think... the threaded body is only aluminum. The package indicated they should not be used for anything like overhead stuff, or playground equipment applications. The tag said it was good for 220 lbs. so since I'm using 2 of them, I'm hoping a 440 lb. capacity will be plenty.
I slid one of the drive belts on and I'm wondering if I should have got longer ones. The 2 that I got will work but they draw the engine over to one side more than I was planning. I used a tape and measured around the clutch and drive pulleys, but I got it wrong somehow. What would you do? Run with these or get some longer belts?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/drive_belts_too_short.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650591278)
Next question... Any recommendations for lube system parts? I think I would prefer metal tubing over plastic because the Texas heat will destroy most plastic if stored outside. I've seen copper tubing used before and I like that idea, but I don't know what other components I will need. I don't expect it to turn on when I make a cut, although that would be slick, and shut off when the cut is done. But it would be nice if it were a quick and easy thing to do. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
As far as belt length. Are you going to have an idler pulley / tensioner? If so I would go longer and take it up with the tensioner. I try to always have a tensioner because belts stretch...
Regarding lube. If you want to turn it on while cutting, and off when not, I would tie that in with a throttle mechanism that throttles up when cutting and down to idle when you gigging back. I did both on my saw and there are pick in my gallery that you can check out. At this point in your build, not a big deal and something you will easily account for later.
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on April 21, 2022, 10:10:28 PM
As far as belt length. Are you going to have an idler pulley / tensioner? If so I would go longer and take it up with the tensioner. I try to always have a tensioner because belts stretch...
I'm not planning on an idler pulley. My plan is to use slotted motor mount holes and a tensioning system like what I made under the band wheels. A bolt that pushes the engine sideways. like in this pic.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/pillow_block_adjusters_installed~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650593868)
But IF I go the idler tensioner pulley way, THEN I can actually mount the engine right in the middle and have a more balanced saw. Hmmmm....
Re: fuel and lube tank locations. Having them on the head keeps the relative distance between the tank and point of use constant. Yeah, more weight but not that big of deal.
Re: turnbuckle strength. Actually, looking at your chain path, the turn buckle is not supporting any weight. The chain is in tension from the top sprocket down to the attachment at the head. Below that attachment point all the way around the bottom idler and back up to the top sprocket is only in the amount of tension you place on it by tightening the turnbuckle. You can simply replace it with a tension spring, like from a trampoline.
Re: lube plumbing/valves. I have two valves on my lube. One is used for on/off the other set the flow (just a trickle). That way you don't have to adjust the flow every time you turn it on. Copper pipe would work great. However, you need some flexibility. The lube will need to be deposited in front of your blade guide so it goes under the the guide and then into the log. The blade guide needs to move in and out to adjust to the different log/cant widths. Do you have a electric clutch? I forget. If you do, you could have a solenoid valve wired with it to turn your water on and off.
I see someone else says they have a set up in their gallery that might serve your needs. Here are some images from the manual for my sawmill lube system. I can take some pictures if you want them.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/67554/lube_valve.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1650607015)
The throttle cable is at the bottom and when it is pulled to rev up the engine, the throttle arm pushes on the plate which presses the switch in the valve opening it for flow. The next image is the setup in exploded view.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/67554/lube_valve_exploded.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1650607356)
I used a cheap 12v 1/4inch solenoid valve you can purchase on the internets. Its normally closed (with no power the valve is shut). Its hooked up to the forward switch on my mill.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 21, 2022, 11:19:52 PM
Re: turnbuckle strength. Actually, looking at your chain path, the turn buckle is not supporting any weight.
Do you have a electric clutch? I forget. If you do, you could have a solenoid valve wired with it to turn your water on and off.
Ha! I hadn't thought of that! The turnbuckle is only removing the slack, you're right.
No electric clutch here...only centrifugal force.
Quote from: ktm250rider on April 22, 2022, 09:46:05 AM
I used a cheap 12v 1/4inch solenoid valve you can purchase on the internets. Its normally closed (with no power the valve is shut). Its hooked up to the forward switch on my mill.
Thanks. I'll look into that Mr. ktm250rider. I'm currently a Yamaha 250 rider. bike_rider
That is looking really good. I bet your raise and lower is nicer than the threaded rod now. Maybe one day I will fix mine so it goes up faster. or I just need to add the magnetic limit switch so it can move while I am loading the next log.
Quote from: Crusarius on April 22, 2022, 11:42:09 AM
That is looking really good.
Thanks a lot.
Since I changed the 12" drive pulley to a 14" 2 belt drive pulley I created a clearance issue. The drive band wheel made contact to the trolley. A little snip here and some patchwork there and we have clearance.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/clearance_cut_for_larger_drive_pulley~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650680556)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/clearance_made_for_larger_drive_wheel.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1650680602)
Funny how those little details come back to bite you. That happened to me so many times.
In looking at the construction, each of the two chains to hold the mill head are independent of each other. You are relying on the sprockets and their mountings to hold everything level. What if you have some kind of accident and slightly bend something? Or something slips a bit. It may be metal, but there is still flex and fatigue. Physics happens.
I don't see how you plan on making side to side adjustments on the mill head to keep the blade level. The pins method you mention seems to rely on gravity to hang the mill head on the chain.
Quote from: rusticretreater on April 23, 2022, 11:28:06 AMYou are relying on the sprockets and their mountings to hold everything level.
Not sure if I've already mentioned it. For your set screw on the rods, you should drill a little divot so they can't slip.
Quote from: rusticretreater on April 23, 2022, 11:28:06 AM
In looking at the construction, each of the two chains to hold the mill head are independent of each other. You are relying on the sprockets and their mountings to hold everything level. What if you have some kind of accident and slightly bend something? Or something slips a bit. It may be metal, but there is still flex and fatigue. Physics happens.
I don't see how you plan on making side to side adjustments on the mill head to keep the blade level. The pins method you mention seems to rely on gravity to hang the mill head on the chain.
You are correct. There are only 2 adjustments I can do to make sure the blade is level with the bed. First is which hole in the chain I insert the pin (or cap screw as fluidpowerpro suggested) into. If one side of the chain were to stretch more than the other I can move the pin up to the next higher hole to compensate. The second method of blade adjustment is in the blade roller guides. From what I've heard you want about a 1/4" down pressure on the blade. I'd guess I could add a touch more to help level the blade with the bed. I chose the system based on the ease of the design, and the performance it has provided those who currently use the same system. If you want to check out "The Logfather" YouTube channel, he has discussed how well the same system has worked for him. He's been using his for a couple of seasons now and still likes it. I'm hoping to have the same results, but I'm certainly open to modifications if needed. I suppose time will tell... I'll either have a square cant or I won't!
If I do need to have some more adjustability, I think I can add that just above where the chain attaches to the mill head. I'll need to think a while on what hardware would do the trick.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 23, 2022, 10:08:13 PMNot sure if I've already mentioned it. For your set screw on the rods, you should drill a little divot so they can't slip.
I went a bit further and tack welded the sprockets to the shafts to handle that possibility. I wonder if I'll regret that down the road.
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 23, 2022, 11:07:18 PMIf I do need to have some more adjustability, I think I can add that just above where the chain attaches to the mill head.
You could have a second set of hole for the pins that is offset to have a "half step" in adjustment?
replace your turnbuckle with springs to hold tension and use the turnbuckle on the head. That will give you the adjustability you may want. Honestly though I think the idea of adjusting the guides should be good enough since the load on your sawframe is pretty well balanced.
I appreciate the problem solving guys. 8)
Gas tank placement...I like this idea, does anyone see an issue before I tack it in place?
In the first pic the head is all the way down.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Gas_tank_placement_down.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651077983)
All the way up.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Gas_tank_placement_up.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651078013)
Only concern I would have is that the fuel pump will be able to lift that high. Probably will but might want to run and check. I have to stand and balance on my mill to fill fuel and lube. Not fun at my age..... :)
Quote from: TroyC on April 27, 2022, 01:10:59 PM
Only concern I would have is that the fuel pump will be able to lift that high. Probably will but might want to run and check. I have to stand and balance on my mill to fill fuel and lube. Not fun at my age..... :)
Well there ya go... that didn't cross my mind. Once I get a battery for the mill I'll fire it up and check. Thanks for your reply TroyC.
mine has the pump on the motor, and a generic fuel pump (with in and out) at the base of the motor. it begins running when the key is turned on.
I doubt you will have issues. that is a good fuel pump in those.
But like was mentioned above. The reason my fuel tank is 5 gallon cans, is so I can take an empty off and put a full on. standing on the mill to refuel is no fun and when the head starts to move is even less fun!!!
Just a note on the placement. When full(5 gals) it will weight about 32 lbs. So your mill head free play tolerances need to manage that weight. 32 lbs, 0 lbs and anywhere in between.
I have a tote tank like that too with one of the marine fittings. I read about guys having trouble with them leaking after a year but I've not given mine a second look since turning the key a few years ago. It does live under shade. I give it a nudge when I finish up for the day and if it's low I unplug it and take it home with me to fill up before next time.
I'm sure the fuel pump will be fine pulling up that high
It's ALIVE....... No problems lifting the fuel. I hooked up a 1/4" fuel line to the filter and dangled it about 2 ft" down into a 5 gallon plastic gas can without priming it. Hooked up a new battery and added 2 quarts of oil to the new engine, turned the key and cranked it for about 5 seconds and it fired off and idled smoothly.
Just a few more things to build and I'll be making my first test cut. Tomorrow I'll start on the roller blade guides.
Thanks fellas.
I had a few hours today uninterrupted and got close to finishing both blade guides. Here's the progress. This is the fixed guide, same design as the Linn Lumber mill.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Blade_guide_fixed.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651196367)
This is the beginning of the adjustable blade guide, two different views.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Adjustable_blade_guide~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651196429)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Blade_guide_adjustabe_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651196754)
Well... your blade guides will work but will be a challenge to adjust. You will have to loosen the bolts on the top (bottom in your picture) to be able to twist relative to the blade and slide front to back? Then on the stem, you will have to loosen those bolts to adjust the angle to make the blade run flat? Are those elongated holes to adjust the amount of down pressure as well? Let me show you the pain I went through.
Here is my first iteration:
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Bandsaw_blade_guide_drive_side_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1436661252)
The two bolts you see on the left are used to adjust the angle and the height. The tube has a couple bolts on the bottom to allow forward/back adjustments. Note the use of regular bearing. Those didn't last.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Bandsaw_blade_guide_drive_side_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1436661259)
The red handles are used often to slide the guide up to the log/cant.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/Cooks_Guides.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1439747165)
This is the drive side with the second iteration - swapped out to Cook's guides. Much better. It can slide out as well but never did. you can see where I had to cut it back to clear my log stops. Also, you can see the elongated holes to allow for more down movement and pitching the blade. A royal PITA to adjust.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20210514_f.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621042571)
New and vastly improved. The eight 3/8" bolts can raise and lower the guide as well as pitch and yaw adjustments. Loosen them a little and forward/back can be adjusted with the tap of a hammer. The bolts rest on flats ground into the rod that I used. Could should have used square stock but didn't have any at the time.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20210514_h.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621042589)
When adjusting the blade, I will do 1/4 to 1/2 rotation on the bolts. That's how little you need to be able to accurately move your guides!
Just trying to save you a little lot of grief! ;)
Thank you ljohnsaw. I have my doubts as to the ease of use with my current plan for sure, but I've heard those who use it say adjust it one and done. We shall see!
They are for sure a giant pain to adjust. I am still not sure I have mine adjusted perpendicular to the blade. it makes alot more noise than I think it should.
The day started with me headed off to the optometrist to deal with whatever was in my right eyeball for the past couple of days. I had a pretty good feeling it was a metal shaving since I already knew what that feels like. And... I was right. This time I also had rust in the eyeball as well, because I waited to get it checked out, I blame it on wishful thinking. Anyways, $152. later, and no more flaming eyeball.
Around noon I got started on finishing up the adjustable blade guide...one of the final pieces of the project before I can try this thing out. I looked at all my drawings that I had made from saving pictures of all the Linn Lumber style builds I could find. Got it done and it was so pretty I had to take close ups of my stellar fab skills lol. I took a couple steps over to the mill and bolted it up. Something was off.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Adjustable_blade_guide_close_up.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651286241)
Can you see the problem?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Blade_guide_adjustabe_screw_up.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651287910)
I drew the plans out based on the blade turning one direction, but since I flipped the placement of the engine, the direction of the blade rotation also changed. What I forgot to do was to test fit the component before fully welding it up. As Homer Simpson would say... Doh!
So if one were to see the bright side of things, I'm one step ahead if I build another mill exactly like the standard Linn Lumber design. Unfortunately, for this build I'll need to make another adjustable blade guide arm that will actually touch the blade!
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 29, 2022, 11:18:42 PMI took a couple steps over to the mill and bolted it up. Something was off.
Its good for the other side...
Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 30, 2022, 01:24:36 AM
Its good for the other side...
I thought about that as well. Is there any reason why every saw manufacturer (that I know of) has one fixed blade guide and one adjustable? I guess there's really no point in having two adjustable guides.
My first iteration had adjustable on both sides. Current is fixed on the drive side.
haha, I laugh because I did exactly the same thing :) Maybe you saved the wrong pic from my build thread? :)
you can always move it to the other side but its probably just as easy to cut it off and flip it.
The #1 reason for only having one side adjustable is the location of the backstops. There is no reason to adjust the other side because the cant will always be against the backstops.
Quote from: Crusarius on April 30, 2022, 10:09:33 AM
haha, I laugh because I did exactly the same thing :) Maybe you saved the wrong pic from my build thread? :)
you can always move it to the other side but its probably just as easy to cut it off and flip it.
The #1 reason for only having one side adjustable is the location of the backstops. There is no reason to adjust the other side because the cant will always be against the backstops.
With one possible exception......RRQS. I found that out the other day, but there was no ill effects that I could discern.
Quote from: Crusarius on April 30, 2022, 10:09:33 AMMaybe you saved the wrong pic from my build thread?
I saved both pictures from your thread. Once I saw my mistake I knew you'd get a kick out of it!
I made the part correct for the normal direction the blade travels, but I changed the the direction and forgot to take that into account.
Quote from: KenMac on April 30, 2022, 12:49:38 PM
Quote from: Crusarius on April 30, 2022, 10:09:33 AMThe #1 reason for only having one side adjustable is the location of the backstops. There is no reason to adjust the other side because the cant will always be against the backstops.
With one possible exception......RRQS. I found that out the other day, but there was no ill effects that I could discern.
Care to elaborate? Are you speaking of reverse roll quarter sawing? I don't know what that is.
Now I'm down to the small stuff, where and how to locate the idler wheel for belt tensioning. I welded 2 cheapie pulleys together to accommodate the 2 drive belts.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Idler_pulleys_welded_together.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651352779)
Any suggestions on a design to allow for a spring for tension? Possibly mount the pulley on a slide system that uses a bolt to create tension on the belts? I'm not the best at describing mechanical things, hopefully someone knows what I'm trying to ask
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Idler_pulley_location.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651352821)
try this
Amazon.com: KIPA Belt Tensioner Assy Fit for Toyota Camry Rav4 Highlander Sienna Scion Tc Lexus ES RS OEM Part Number 16620-36010 16620-0V020 : Automotive (https://www.amazon.com/KIPA-Tensioner-Highlander-16620-36010-16620-0V020/dp/B07TC5VPJF/ref=sxin_15_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa?adgrpid=1334807688845732&cv_ct_cx=serpentine+belt+tensioner&hvadid=83425552762988&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=104598&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83425844930786%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=5739_10394749&keywords=serpentine+belt+tensioner&pd_rd_i=B07TC5VPJF&pd_rd_r=5724bb20-96bf-4810-b159-353eddb7c639&pd_rd_w=bGHWL&pd_rd_wg=NeqY1&pf_rd_p=a03faa8b-9360-4cb7-b57f-74dc8f5eb6d9&pf_rd_r=45235NA95GW6YRSEXS3X&qid=1651362280&s=automotive&sr=1-3-f279aa53-2909-43d9-bb22-12e97e191132-spons&psc=1&smid=ADYGGS8N6EAC2&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzVDlLSUg1MTFZUDQ1JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMDc3ODk1NzQ1QTNONlRHT1ZYJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3OTA3NDAyNU9LNFVDTkxCR1RNJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3Bfc2VhcmNoX3RoZW1hdGljJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==)
let me know how you mount it so I can mount mine :)
Mine just has a piece of angle iron with a slot machined in it, welded vertically to the beam. The pulley shaft can slide vertically in that slot and the shaft has a threaded stud on it that tightens it up from moving. I just lever the pulley up into the belt with a block of wood until it's tight then torque up the nut on the stud
Quote from: JoshNZ on April 30, 2022, 09:11:12 PM
Mine just has a piece of angle iron with a slot machined in it, welded vertically to the beam. The pulley shaft can slide vertically in that slot and the shaft has a threaded stud on it that tightens it up from moving. I just lever the pulley up into the belt with a block of wood until it's tight then torque up the nut on the stud
THIS.
That pully is pretty wide and the bolt used might shear off if only held at one end. How about something like this?
A U shaped bracket that the pulley fits inside so there is support on both ends of the pulley. This is welded to a piece of smaller square tube that fits inside the larger square tube. The small tube open end is capped with a thick piece of metal for a bolt to push on. It slides inside the larger square tube that has a plate with a nut welded to it on the end. A bolt is threaded up from the bottom to push on the smaller tube bottom, extending the tube to take up tension on the belts. Don't forget a lock nut on the tensioning bolt.
The only problem left is a locking method at the top. You could slot the smaller tube, put a boss on the frame and thread a hole in that. Then you pass a bolt w/ washers through the tube and into the frame to lock it in place. The boss should be such that it takes up the space between the frame and the tube to hold alignment perpendicular to the belts.
I picked up one of these at a clearance store for $6, or maybe it was $2.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20210514_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621042615)
It didn't go well for me. I welded in the mounting plate and it wasn't in line very well. The belt kept running off the side. So I pulled it. I have another undamaged one (see my thread on how I messed it up) if you would like it. Just pay postage. It has a coil spring (like a clock spring) inside the housing.
Quote from: rusticretreater on April 30, 2022, 10:09:22 PM
That pully is pretty wide and the bolt used might shear off if only held at one end. How about something like this?
A U shaped bracket that the pulley fits inside so there is support on both ends of the pulley. This is welded to a piece of smaller square tube that fits inside the larger square tube. The small tube open end is capped with a thick piece of metal for a bolt to push on. It slides inside the larger square tube that has a plate with a nut welded to it on the end. A bolt is threaded up from the bottom to push on the smaller tube bottom, extending the tube to take up tension on the belts. Don't forget a lock nut on the tensioning bolt.
The only problem left is a locking method at the top. You could slot the smaller tube, put a boss on the frame and thread a hole in that. Then you pass a bolt w/ washers through the tube and into the frame to lock it in place. The boss should be such that it takes up the space between the frame and the tube to hold alignment perpendicular to the belts.
The idler pulley bearing uses a bolt that is only 3/8 so you are probably right. My initial thought was to support it from both sides, but I couldn't envision how to make it pivot... that's when I asked for help. I can understand the second paragraph but I can't visualize your second paragraph. It seems to me the u shaped bracket holding the pulley, being pushed by a tube within a tube would be enough. Why does it need a locking method at the top?
Quote from: ljohnsaw on April 30, 2022, 11:40:09 PMI have another undamaged one (see my thread on how I messed it up) if you would like it. Just pay postage.
Thanks for the offer John.
I thought I posted a photo but I must've got distracted before hitting send!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/47173/IMG_20200920_142631.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1600669385)
I didn't ever detail it but you can see it in the photo below the alternator there.
Mines only an M10 thread, close to 3/8, it holds fine though it should be bigger. Make it an M16. The nut pulls the shafts shoulder into the slot/flat face of that bracket so it's not as though the 10mm shaft is holding the force, it just keeps the shoulder against the slot/face and that provides support for the tension.
It's not ideal to turn the belt back on itself the other way, better to push it out from the inside of the circuit but that was difficult for me, and I also needed to clear the engine mount frame
There is free play between the two tubes and it is certain that the physics of the situation will make the support move around. You have seen drive belts banjo about as they are running. All of that movement is sure to continually pound on the adjusting bolt at the bottom of the part and make the tensioner bottom wear funny, move around and get out of adjustment.
Looking at any machinery and automobile mountings in particular, you will note that all tension holding devices either have a powerful spring or are mounted securely in two locations. Either way, they are not allowed to vibrate.
You guys are great. Thanks for taking the time to educate a brother. I really appreciate the level of detail all of you provide.
You're welcome. It's a welcome design exercise for me. You might want to divot the bottom of the smaller tube to give a positive seating for the adjustment bolt. This would make it handle more stress I think.
If you really want to build it right, further down cut an opening on the back of the outer tube for another frame mounted boss to fit in the opening. This will provide a bottom alignment for the inner tube and remove lateral stress on the alignment bolt. I was thinking of another bolt here to lock it in place too.
A through bolt like at the top would crush the inner and outer tubes together. So no go there. You could drill the outer tube, weld a nut on and use a bolt to push the inner tube against the boss. This bolt would need a lock nut too. Another method would be to slot the lower part of the inner tube too, then tap the frame boss as you did the other one, drill a larger hole in the outer tube and use a bolt directly fasten the inner tube to the boss. I think that would be a better design as it insures alignment of the inner tube at both ends.
Take a look at the WM way - they mount the engine on a hinged plate. You tip the engine to tighten the belt. Tip back and its loose. With the right leverage, pretty easy to do. The problem with idle wheels is they have to be perfectly aligned or the belt will track off to the edge.
Quote from: Cornerstone on April 30, 2022, 04:58:40 PM
Quote from: KenMac on April 30, 2022, 12:49:38 PM
Quote from: Crusarius on April 30, 2022, 10:09:33 AMThe #1 reason for only having one side adjustable is the location of the backstops. There is no reason to adjust the other side because the cant will always be against the backstops.
With one possible exception......RRQS. I found that out the other day, but there was no ill effects that I could discern.
Care to elaborate? Are you speaking of reverse roll quarter sawing? I don't know what that is.
Yes, I'm referring to reverse roll quartersawing. On my Cook's mill, when I rrqs, it is clamped anywhere from pretty much far left to 1/4 of the way to the right. My mill normally clamps against the squaring arms on the right side. I did not find any issue sawing this way on my mill as long as you're clamping tight enough to withstand the force of the saw blade.
I'm in the middle of testing all my adjustment and my belt tensioner is on the menu, i added guides as the belt was jumping off because my pulley was not lined up but i did readjust it whit the 36'' pipe wrench and it looks pretty strait now,.. i added a small pulley with a little down pressure to stop the bouncing on the top part of the belt. i have a over TDC lever on operator's side to engage the tensioner. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20220501_142738.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651449047)
Quote from: Vautour on May 01, 2022, 08:03:21 PM
I have a over TDC lever on operator's side to engage the tensioner.
Thanks for adding to the discussion my friend. I'd be curious to see how that works if you can show a picture of it.
This afternoon I made a channel to hold the pulley on both sides, and I think I've got a decent place to mount it. It doesn't hang any lower than the frame of the saw head, so I shouldn't loose any throat capacity.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/belt_tensioner_in_channel.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651451285)
In this pic you can see the slot I added to the bracket to be able to push the pulley and tighten the belt.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/belt_tensioner_placement.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651451329)
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 01, 2022, 10:26:50 AMThe problem with idle wheels is they have to be perfectly aligned or the belt will track off to the edge.
This is very probable in my case. The idler wheels that I welded together were stamped steel. I noticed the surface that the belt rides on is not perpendicular to the bearing, in other words the belt surface wasn't quite stamped at a 90 degree angle to the bolt the pulley rides on. In turn when the 2 were welded together there is now a convex surface (not noticeable in the picture above) the belts will ride on. I'm guessing they won't want to ride square on the pulley, but walk apart and possibly even come off. Tomorrow I intend to add slotted holes to the engine mounting plate to take some more slack out of the belts also.
If it ends up not working there is another thing you can do. Surplus center sells v-groove pulleys. Instead of pushing on the back of the belts, you can push on the v-side and be sure of controlling belt movement.
You can get a 3" double groove pulley with any size bore you want for around $18. Of course you would have to wait for them to ship it to you. :-\
There are also flat belt idler pulleys that are used on lawn mower decks to route drive belts. They have raised edges to keep the belt on the pulley. They might be wide enough to support two belts.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/Pulleys-V-Belts/Finished-Bore-Pulleys/ (https://www.surpluscenter.com/Pulleys-V-Belts/Finished-Bore-Pulleys/)
You might find the convex idler causes the belts to ride up on the crown, same as a band wheel does. See how you go. Mine was a square idler for a long time but it did fail one day, I put it back on the lathe and turned the guts of it down ~1/16" so it had little shoulders and it's never come off since.
Quote from: Crusarius on April 06, 2022, 09:50:55 AMI got a set of annular cutters I use in my mill. after using one to cut a 1" hole I said I would never got back to using drill bits again. they are amazing just the cutter.
Do you have a mag drill or are you using a regular drill press? I need to punch a number of 1" holes in 1.25" to 1.5" stock. I don't have a mag drill :(
Quote from: JoshNZ on May 02, 2022, 03:01:01 AM
You might find the convex idler causes the belts to ride up on the crown, same as a band wheel does. See how you go. Mine was a square idler for a long time but it did fail one day, I put it back on the lathe and turned the guts of it down ~1/16" so it had little shoulders and it's never come off since.
Quote from: rusticretreater on May 01, 2022, 11:53:34 PM
They have raised edges to keep the belt on the pulley.
I'm seeing a pattern here, lol if I can't get it to run true, That'd be my next step.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 02, 2022, 11:51:23 AM
Do you have a mag drill or are you using a regular drill press? I need to punch a number of 1" holes in 1.25" to 1.5" stock. I don't have a mag drill :(
I DO! It's a no name cheapie but it works and is a huge advantage. I made up a gallon batch of cutting fluid by mixing a few ounces of oil with a few ounces of dishwashing detergent in a gallon of water and it'll do magic, I just squirt it every few seconds to help keep everything cool. If the surface isn't thick enough it's best to clamp everything down so the bit won't walk on you, but as long as the material is over 1/4" it stays rock solid while cutting. I've seen them as cheap as $219.
BRM-35 Magnetic Drill Press 12-35mm Boring Tapping 2250 LBS Magnet Force 980W | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/392776202722?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1_Ughb4DuRJihh75yHI0BzQ95&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=392776202722&targetid=4580702891777577&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=418640321&mkgroupid=1233652283797640&rlsatarget=pla-4580702891777577&abcId=9300602&merchantid=51291&msclkid=0cd1c0f2c70316198cf2a282c2ba2def)
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 02, 2022, 11:51:23 AM
Quote from: Crusarius on April 06, 2022, 09:50:55 AMI got a set of annular cutters I use in my mill. after using one to cut a 1" hole I said I would never got back to using drill bits again. they are amazing just the cutter.
Do you have a mag drill or are you using a regular drill press? I need to punch a number of 1" holes in 1.25" to 1.5" stock. I don't have a mag drill :(
I put them in a 3/4" collet and used my vertical mill. Worked like a charm except for not having the ingot extractor. The ingots came out pretty easily with some tapping on the outside of it.
Quote from: Cornerstone on May 02, 2022, 12:21:20 PMI've seen them as cheap as $219. BRM-35 Magnetic Drill Press 12-35mm Boring Tapping 2250 LBS Magnet Force 980W | eBay
It looks like this comes with one metric bit (size?) and they don't look like standard bits. Did you just use the one that came with it or did you buy some additional one?
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 02, 2022, 05:05:52 PMIt looks like this comes with one metric bit (size?) and they don't look like standard bits. Did you just use the one that came with it or did you buy some additional one?
That was just the first cheapie I found on Ebay. The one I have is 1300 watts and came with a bunch of metric cutters. I still can't believe I only gave 75$ for it. ;D 8)
I had some good fortune on the belt tensioner today. First I cut down the sidewall on the bracket so it'd be easier to load the pulley, spacers and washers, then picked a spot and tacked it to the frame. It's very easy to adjust the tension and the belts track straight and true.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/belt_tensioner_mounted.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651542853)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/belt_tensioner_mounted_underside.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651542883)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/belt_tensioner_works_good.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651542908)
Quote from: Vautour on May 01, 2022, 08:03:21 PM (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=118404.msg1907070#msg1907070)Quote I have a over TDC lever on operator's side to engage the tensioner.
I'd be curious to see how that works if you can show a picture of it. ....Having trouble receiving pics from my phone to my PC... will post when the come in,.. nice work.
Up is disengaged and down is engaged...i got to change the threaded rod part to pivot where it's attaching to the lever bracket.... and new paint. (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20220502_070016.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651620509)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/53405/IMG_20220502_070026.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651620562)
Quote from: Vautour on May 03, 2022, 07:36:32 PMUp is disengaged and down is engaged...
Simple enough! Thanks
So the next project on the list toward completion is blade guards. Linn Lumber sells the premade set of them for a few hundred bucks plus shipping, and with the price of new metal I started looking for something that would suffice. I went through the free stuff on Craigslist hoping to find something close to 14 gauge to cut up and make them myself. I searched Marketplace also and wasted another hour. I figured I was headed to the local metal supplier when I walked out to feed the animals and right there in front of me was this water trough I haven't been using for over a year. How convenient!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Blade_guard_possibility.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651633888)
A quick measurement and 2 minutes with the cutoff disc and I had a free set of blade guards!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Blade_guard_possibility_mounted.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651633960)
I needed to create a mounting system and stiffen them up some, so some more surgery was in order. Being galvanized, I had to flap disc away the coating so the metal fumes wouldn't mess me up. It was then that I started to realized how thin the metal was and the whole project went south. With my Miller 175 set on it's lowest setting I was blowing holes all over the thing. I worked almost everyday for 2 months on this thing and took pride in making everything as square as I could, I'm not going to settle for sub par guards! The guards are covering all that hard work so they ought to look great as well as serve their purpose. I jumped in the truck and made the trip to a metal yard that sells used steel as well as new. I got out with a few clean 20"x60" 14 gauge sheets of cold rolled steel for only $35. Well worth the effort since a full sheet of the same stuff is almost $200. Now that I have the right materials I'm looking forward to tomorrows project. :)
Make sure to leave enough room between the blade and guard. I had to install a piece of UHMW on the top, inside my guard. The blade would set up a harmonic and vibrate and hit my guard, dulling the blade. Also, make sure it is really easy to remove. My first iteration it was really, really hard to change the blade because my guard was not removable. I though the little bit of space I built into it was enough to change the blade.
My current guard is 3/4" plywood front (so it doesn't damage the blade if it hits) and thick plastic from a playground tube slide.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20210514_e.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1621042569)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20220319_a.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1647711806)
Definitely making them removeable, John. Do you have a build thread on your timber frame cabin? I'd love to see it.
its even better if it is easy. I have one that I hinged and one that is removable. I like the hinged one 10 million!!!! times better.
Quote from: Cornerstone on May 04, 2022, 09:49:24 AMDo you have a build thread on your timber frame cabin? I'd love to see it.
My Timber Frame Build (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=66160.msg988728#msg988728) Might want to just skip to the last page unless you have a few hours and/or are having trouble falling asleep.;)
I've proven my theory yet again. Everything I think will take 1 day takes 2... at least it didn't cost twice as much as it often does. I'm glad I decided to go for the 14 gauge over the janky water trough idea. It looks way better and much more sturdy. I suppose I need to find a way to use the 2 halves of the water trough now, make it look intentional ya see. ::) -I got it... screw a couple of 2x12's to the cut ends and call them planters, my wife will think I'm a genius.
The guard mount is just 3 pieces of angle welded together, then welded to the saw head. Pardon the rusty blade, with any luck it will be bright and shiny very soon.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Blade_guard_mount~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651788772)
The backside of the new blade guards has a bracket that slides into the frame to hold it in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Blade_guards_backside~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651788801)
Just before welding the guard mount in place.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/blade_guards_mounted.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651788903)
I used a couple of Cleko fasteners to hold the guards in place. Probably be smart to keep a pair of Cleko pliers with the mill at all times.. maybe tape them to a string like they do the pens at the bank. lol
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/blade_guard_cleko_fastener.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651789532)
One more thing to add in regard to the guards, a stand off bolt to the front of the saw frame so the guard will maintain adequate distance in case something were to bump into it. That'll be another day.
Those look really nice. You do fine work.
Use really strong magnets. they have a tendency to stay better than strings that will break from the weather.
Guards look really nice.
Thanks guys. What wheel and tire size will be acceptable? I already have an axle from an old boat trailer that I saved, and will cut it down to the correct width. I'm pretty sure it has 5 lug hubs with a 4.5" bolt circle. I found some mounted tires on white steel wheels at the local farm and ranch store that are 4.80 x 12" for only $60. each. They look like they'd do the trick, but possibly on the small side. Smaller may be better, I don't know.
Brian
Smaller may be better. the tires I have are I think 16" wheels that were on the horse trailer that the axle came out of. I want to change to smaller tires because I have to raise the bed of the sawmill up quite a bit so I do not try to saw the top of the tire off :)
I have to have the tires off the ground to drop far enough to clear the carriage.
I cut down a boat trailer axle to fit the saw mill track width. I'm thinking a removeable axle would be best as opposed to welding it directly to the frame. In this picture you can see a 2x2 1/4 wall tube that's between the spring hangers and the frame. My plan was to weld the hangers to the tubing and then bolt the tube to the frame with three 1/2" bolts on each side.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/removeable_axle.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651958569)
Not sure where to weld the front hanger... either to the leading edge of the 2x2 or underneath the 2x2 like the the one in the back.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/fornt_hangers.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651958669)
I'll have just enough room to mount a small fender over the tire.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/tire_height.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651958722)
I picked up 6 of these jacks. How do y'all feel about mounting them like this on both ends of the saw bed?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/trailer_jacks_in_back.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651958760)
ok, first. I like the axle idea. A thought I had for V2.5 was to make it so the axle could be installed at either end as well as the tongue. that way if you have a tight site you're trying to get into you can drive in, setup then do your job. On the way out you put the axle on the other end and tongue on the other one then you drive back out.
second. No way you have room for a small fender. the axle will move more than that. You will need at least 1 removable fender.
Third. don't put the jacks at the very end if you can avoid it. if you bring them in 3-4' from the end you will have less bed sag. I would weld them to the inside of the main channel in a way they can still be rotated up. And be very careful when welding them to make sure the handles still work or you will have to weld a nut on there and use a ratchet.
I forget how long your bed is but if it is 24' I would put a set of jacks in from the ends roughly 3' and one set in the center. Then you will never have to worry about sag or dropping stuff on the bed. plus it would make it real easy to remove the axle if you want to.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/61033/IMG_20220406_153534794~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651962225)
I used side wind jacks instead of top wind. Agree that jacks should be inward and not all the way to the back. This is a 10' extension for the EZ40. The mill has the short fat tires like they put on pontoon boat trailers. More clearance and higher weight capacity. The EZ40 has a bolt-on axle carriage, 2 bolts per side hold the carriage to the frame.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/61033/IMG_20211015_140026137.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1634558840)
Quote from: Cornerstone on May 07, 2022, 05:29:05 PMNot sure where to weld the front hanger... either to the leading edge of the 2x2 or underneath the 2x2 like the the one in the back.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but, the shackle with the extra link is the back mount, not the front. You want the more rigid connection in the front to withstand the impact of pot holes, curbs and such. Just like the saw blade you
pull through the wood, you
pull your axle, not push it!
Quote from: Crusarius on May 07, 2022, 05:44:53 PMI would weld them to the inside of the main channel in a way they can still be rotated up.
The only problem with that is the mill will be a little less stable side to side. My jacks are on the inside and I've made my whole mill track tip a bit at times between bumping it with my SkyTrak or flipping a cant. I've been thinking of moving them to the outside since they are bolted on. I'm stationary.
Jacks outside by a few inches definitely add stability!
Quote from: Crusarius on May 07, 2022, 05:44:53 PM
Third. don't put the jacks at the very end if you can avoid it. if you bring them in 3-4' from the end you will have less bed sag. I would weld them to the inside of the main channel in a way they can still be rotated up. And be very careful when welding them to make sure the handles still work or you will have to weld a nut on there and use a ratchet.
*After the springs are correctly installed the tire will sit at least 4 inches farther away from the saw head than it is in that pic. I think I will have room for a small fender, it'll be small but sufficient and easily removeable.
*Good point, probably smarter to put the jacks a couple feet from the ends... seems like it would distribute the load better on the frame. My track is 20 ft. long.
Quote from: TroyC on May 07, 2022, 06:34:38 PM
The mill has the short fat tires like they put on pontoon boat trailers. More clearance and higher weight capacity.
Those tires would be ideal for what I'd need I think. I didn't see that type while I was out on the hunt to see what was available locally.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 07, 2022, 08:59:55 PMMaybe I'm reading it wrong, but, the shackle with the extra link is the back mount, not the front. You want the more rigid connection in the front to withstand the impact of pot holes, curbs and such. Just like the saw blade you pull through the wood, you pull your axle, not push it!
Thanks for catching that! I hope I would have before I welded it up. lol Ya saved this newby from another headache again!
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 07, 2022, 09:02:44 PMThe only problem with that is the mill will be a little less stable side to side. My jacks are on the inside and I've made my whole mill track tip a bit at times between bumping it with my SkyTrak or flipping a cant. I've been thinking of moving them to the outside since they are bolted on. I'm stationary.
Quote from: TroyC on May 07, 2022, 10:07:58 PM
Jacks outside by a few inches definitely add stability!
I'm convinced on this too. I'm gonna mount the 6 jacks as far outboard as the wheels are. I have been known to get a little loosey goosey with the back hoe and skid steer, I'll need all the stability I can get in case I bump into the thing. I would hate knocking the saw off the track.
I'm also curious where to mount the axle. I was thinking having the wheels 75% toward the rear, so with my 20 ft. track set the axle at 15 ft. from the front. When I tow it to a new location I would think the carriage should be locked down just in front of the axle, maybe close to the halfway (10 ft. from the front). Any opinion or warnings to share on this?
Picture of the dinky wheels. lol
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/sawmill_mostly_finished.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651984727)
If you have other trailers, make note of which are easy to back up and which aren't. The length from the hitch to the axle is what you want to match with the good trailer. Then you need to put 15% of the trailer total weight on the hitch. You can do that by where you park the head. If too light, you will get into very dangerous fishtailing at highway speeds. Too heavy and you're being hard on your tow vehicle.
If you don't have any other trailers to compare with, the hitch-axle length should probably be close to or longer than the tow vehicle wheel base. When backing up, if too short you will jackknife easily, too long and it will be difficult to turn sharp.
Just took a closer look at your mill - looking great but a warning. On your log stops and log dogs, you need a way to make them road safe. I'd suggest you drill a hole through the log stops above the welded socket so you can install a lynch pin for travel. Don't rely on your bolt to hold it on the road. Do something similar for the log dogs. Looks like there is a pin on the far side that would hold the dog up. Just need a safety chain or some other way to keep it secure.
Can't tell you where to place the axle but where your planning will definitely give you adequate tongue weight. You could bring the axel forward a bit and position the mill further forward to get tongue weight. As far as tire size, kind of depends on how much traveling you plan to do. If just around the yard or short trips locally, then 12" is probably ok but anything more than that, I would go bigger. Bigger tires will run lower rpm at highway speeds. With larger tires you will have more choices as far as sidewall ratings, etc. Some have mentioned larger tires can stick up too much and interfere with the mill, but that can be delbt with by adding spacers where the axle mounts. Personally, I like the mill bed up higher so your not bending over as much, so larger tires help that also. I built my mill with 15" tires.
I'd say put the head where it suits, somewhere near the back third, then put the axle where you get ~50-100kg of weight on the tow hitch.
All good points. Thanks
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 08, 2022, 01:09:21 AM
Just took a closer look at your mill - looking great but a warning. On your log stops and log dogs, you need a way to make them road safe. I'd suggest you drill a hole through the log stops above the welded socket so you can install a lynch pin for travel. Don't rely on your bolt to hold it on the road. Do something similar for the log dogs. Looks like there is a pin on the far side that would hold the dog up. Just need a safety chain or some other way to keep it secure.
I like the lynch pin idea connected by a thin cable tie. The less loose stuff the better. That pin on the far side needs to moved to the other side, I mounted it there when the log dogs were facing the other way in order to catch it from falling all the way down. I've since turned the dogs around but have not yet moved the pin.
could always mount the jacks inside the frame at an angle. get the best of both worlds.
When it comes to axle placement, I always use the rule of thirds. axle should be 2/3rds from the front. that should give you reasonable wheelbase as well as perfect tongue weight.
Also keep in mind tail dragging when going through low spots. The longer the tail the more likely you are to drag.
I made a few more improvements... got the 6 jacks welded into place. I took the advice and brought the jacks outboard more for better stability and not on the very ends either, to keep the frame from wanting to sag as much in the middle.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/jack_placement.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652411118)
I also made holders for the log dogs to sit in during transport or just not in use.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/log_dog_holder_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652411242)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/log_dog_holder_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652411290)
I also got the axle mounted up but forgot to take pictures. I've got a coupler with a 2 5/16" ball hitch coming in tomorrow. After I get that welded up it will be so nice to move this behemoth from in front of my garage door. It'll be great to be able to tote it around with ease.
Looking good!
Not to be a Debbie Downer... The one jack looks like it is not at a cross member location. Structural steel does not withstand twisting very well. That jack can exert quite a bit of torque on the rail. Might not be a problem, but before it is, I'd put in a cross brace. Nothing big or fancy. Maybe a couple pieces of 1x1 tube or even some pipe. Make an X from the top of one side to the bottom of the other. Fairly light weight and shouldn't catch a lot of debris.
Quote from: ljohnsaw on May 12, 2022, 11:26:46 PM
Not to be a Debbie Downer...
This is one of the main reasons why I'm here, to avoid unnecessary problems. I appreciate the guidance my friend. Cross braces on the way! Thank you John.
Decided to incorporate the cross bracing with the tongue and coupler. What do ya think ljohnsaw?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Brace___towing_coupler.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652729149)
It's first journey to a possible sawmill area. Finally don't have to walk around a maze of sawmill stuff to get in the garage.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/First_move.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652729399)
Even though the blade guides still need some adjustment, I wanted to make sawdust. I'm really tired of grinding metal, cutting metal, welding metal, getting burns on my arms, hands and anywhere else a molten ball decides to bury itself. The worst one yet was in my ear canal, (hearing your flesh sizzle is not recommended) Before I moved the mill to the spot I initially picked out to make a mess, I started the engine and let it warm up for a bit while I went around with a wrench checking all the bolts for tightness, just giving it a quick "preflight" inspection. I left the engine running while I stowed the jacks away and attached the trailer to my trucks hitch. Just before I stood up straight to turn around and go shut the engine off, I hear a sound that only can be a bad thing. The log bed had tilted just enough to allow the saw head to free roll down the rails, only to get nearly half way through a 1/4" thick log dog that was raised above the blades height. So today I ruined my first blade before I even cut any wood. Not many can say they've done that! lol It takes a special kind of newbie to manage that. ::)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/First_screw_up.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652730677)
Nevertheless, I was not stopping just because of a metal strike. I towed the it over to a potential place I've been considering to set up a saw shed and loaded my first log. This is a shorty cedar that I bought with the first load of logs out of east Texas. Who doesn't love the smell of cedar, right?! It took some finagling to get it locked down steady. I now know what the minimum length of log is now also...54" I think I'm going to want to add more bunks and maybe change up the design of the dogs. I don't like the way they slide on the large tubing.
I wasn't expecting the cut to be any good at all with no guides at all, I just needed to smell me some aromatic cedar... period. First flitch came off and the smell was in the air. A few more super thin slices just for fun. The next pass I took just under an inch and sure enough, with a jacked up blade and no guides the blade began to drop into the cut another 1/2 ", I finished the cut and shut it down until I can take the time to finish the work needed on the guides. It's what I expected. For the time being, I can still smell the cedar on my clothes and that's all right with me!
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/First_cut.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652731720)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/first_log_.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652731779)
Haha that is surely a record alright. Joining the club before your mill is even finished smiley_clapping
What's your painting process? I finished my entire build before it ever saw a lick of paint or primer, but it was a massive job to go back over everything and tidy it up.
Process? :D Rattle can enamel. I have a distinct feeling I'll have a pink sawmill after a month of 100*+ days in the Texas sun. I may want to respray it with an hvlp gun and add hardener. Possibly a change of colors too.
oh thats funny right there. your engine idles high enough the blade doesn;t stop? or is there no clutch? That needs remedy. Need to be able to shut the blade movement off. far to dangerous not to.
as for the paint, Josh the only reason mine got painted when it did was the quick rainstorm I was stuck in trying to finish a log :). Drug the mill back into the garage getting soaked then just decided to put a coat of paint on it.
Quote from: Cornerstone on May 16, 2022, 04:25:19 PMDecided to incorporate the cross bracing with the tongue and coupler.
Very nice! What trouble are you having with your clamps? If, when your trying to clamp, they slide, you need to shorten the slider part. It needs to be short enough to get crooked so it can catch. I made mine from square stock and it is only 2" long. It catches quite quickly and easily.
Thanks John! Yeah, that's what I need to do, plus open up the slider part a smidge as well, it's too tight and wants to bind too easily.
My clamp sleeve is 6" works well, not to aggressive. sometimes I have to wack it to break it free.
The plane was to remove the saw head to make a few changes to the blade guides. Accessibility was too limited with it mounted. Instead of disassembling the whole thing, I just unbolted it from the center bar, attached a heavy duty strap and used the skid steer to save my back. As I backed away from the mill slowly the weight shifted, and the saw head was suddenly hanging lopsided from the forks. I hopped out of the seat and went to shift it back into a level position. Just before I laid my hands on it the strap came free and down she went with a heavy thud. I suppose a broken band wheel is better than a broken foot. (I'm trying to see the bright side) Yeah... not a good move.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Dropped_saw_head.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652832714)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Broken_band_wheel.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652832755)
Fortunately, When this all started I bought 2 sets of band wheels with the intention to build one mill for and sell one to recoup the costs, so I had a spare wheel already on hand. Hopefully I can find a use for the busted wheel so it won't be a total loss. Yesterday I cut into a log stop before I cut into a log, and today this.
smiley_furious3
Sounds like its time for a beer and a break. I had one of those days today.
Sorry that happened. All you can do is swear a few times and move on. No one died...
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on May 17, 2022, 09:07:09 PM
Sorry that happened. All you can do is swear a few times and move on. No one died...
Thanks man. That's exactly what I did! ;D
Braze the wheel up and sell it as a concrete mixer pulley or something.
That's a real ball breaker anyway, sorry to see that! Glad you're not waiting on spares
Quote from: Crusarius on May 17, 2022, 09:03:52 PM
Sounds like its time for a beer and a break. I had one of those days today.
That's for sure! When you get everything back together post some pictures 👍. Make sure your strap is money this time!
A few more modifications and she saws straight, level, clean, and fast. I had to add metal to get the roller guides to be aligned properly.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/fixed_blade_guide_mod.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652979944)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Adjustable_blade_guide_mod.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652980029)
My first board produced. So cool. I believe I'm hooked. This is right up my alley guys.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/first_board.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652980102)
After I made all the adjustments, the blade stays exactly centered on the band wheels, and is level with the bed.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/flat_cut_cedar.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652980176)
While it was overall a super productive morning, I do need to change up the design of the drive belts tensioner. For some reason when the blade rotates backwards, the belts stay centered on the pulley, but when it rotates in the direction to cut, the belts walk to the side and eventually the outer one jumps off. I've tried adjusting the thing to it's fullest ability, and no change. I considered adding shoulders to the tensioner to hold the belts in place, but I'm just not very confident on the idea.
In this next picture, I'm holding a clutch in the position I plan to move the tensioner to. There are a couple of good reasons to do this. The first being less wear and tear on the belts by not bending them backwards. The other is ease of adjustment. I' still working out the particulars on the new design, but I think it'll be a definite upgrade.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/belt_tensioner_mod.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652980218)
I'm generally not one to name things, but I want to give this thing a name. I mentioned earlier in the build the name should reflect the forum in some round about way since you guys steered my clear of problems and gave so much good advice along the way. How about a contest? The person who picks the winning name (obviously at my discretion) will get something sent to them. I'll give it some thought as to what, but it needs to have a bit of value so y'all put your noggins to work. At least a gift card to a favorite man store near you. How about this, if you have a name to suggest, send it in a message. That way, no one else can influence my decision. I'll post all of the choices here after I pick the winner. I want to make a name plate and slap it on the blade guard, so that's how I'll reveal the winner.
looks great, I highly recommend you replace those zip screws before another catastrophic failure takes out another wheel.
Or you head :)
Quote from: Crusarius on May 19, 2022, 08:20:27 PM
looks great, I highly recommend you replace those zip screws before another catastrophic failure takes out another wheel.
Or you head :)
Appreciate it...thanks.
Yep. I just got more hex cap screws to take care of that.
Its been a while since I read your postings. When i saw the picture of your trailer hitch and tongue on page 16, I immediately thought that it would not be sufficient.
The center brace looks great. No problems there. I own two trailers, a 17' car hauler rated at 7000lbs and a 12 foot landscaping trailer. On both trailers, the outside braces are C channel that extend under the trailer frame to about 1/3 of the length of the trailer. I think that helps reduce the twisting of the frame as you travel down the road or move the trailer over uneven ground and helps spreads the load evenly.
Google "trailer tongue construction" and then click on images at the top of the listings. This will give you nothing but images of trailer tongue construction and you will see what I am talking about. Its a proven design.
When I was researching what the design would be I looked only at portable sawmill trailers and saw a recurring theme. Most of what I found only had the one center bar reaching back to the first bunk from the end. A couple of them just bolted to the end which definitely looked weak to me. Both of my trailers that are designed to haul heavy loads have the style you mentioned, the tongue is part of the load bearing structure. One is a 16' utility tandem trailer rated at 7k and the other is a tandem for a backhoe rated at 18k.
Since this trailer tongue is only hauling the sawmill itself, (which is rigid enough to hold a 16' long 32" diameter log and not flex) as in not loaded with extra weight, I'm thinking it'll be fine. But, I do thank you for the constructive concern my friend.
To be sure I'll test it out by driving the trailer on very uneven ground around my place and check to see if there is any noticeable twist in the frame. If so I'll concede and add more structural steel and tie it into the current tongue design.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Trailer_design_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653018704)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Trailer_design_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653018731)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/Trailer_design_3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653018757)
Just a few more updates and I can put this build thread to rest. This time the new belt tensioner design works very well. You'd think this would have been the obvious choice from the get go, but at least I ended up here.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/belt_tensioner_2a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653148044)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/belt_tensioner_2b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653148075)
The one adjustment bolt for the engine placement was not enough, since it wanted to twist angle of the crankshaft and not align properly, so a second was needed on the opposite corner of the engine mounting plate. After it was on I was able to line up the clutch perfectly with the drive belts.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/motor_mount_adjustmability_right.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653148386)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/motor_mount_adjustmability_full_view.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653148418)
I think the one remaining system I need to install is blade lubrication. I've got one of those 12v normally closed 1/4" valves for air and various fluids coming today like this.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lube_solenoid.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653149345)
I've been holding onto this switch for years knowing I would need it someday. It's a little smaller than I would get if I were to buy one, but free is my favorite price so... Who else stashes goo gobs of hardware and mechanical trinkets here? Every time I get to repurpose something I feel like I'm doing my part in saving the planet. lol Ok, that's a lie. My neighbors call me when they need hardware because they've seen my garage. My wife is an Art Teacher these days and she does the same thing with art supplies. I suppose we are a creative bunch.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/66590/lube_switch.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653149837)
I would activate the clutch and lube valve from the same switch, prob. your plan.
Quote from: Cornerstone on May 21, 2022, 12:18:31 PMWho else stashes good gobs of hardware and mechanical trinkets here?
This are old pictures. Probably another 10 or 15% more nuts and bolts. Also, there are metal drawers to the left that have the big stuff (1/2" and bigger). Mostly free from stripping down stuff to junk or recycle. The PB jars with the red and green lids are mostly S.S. bolts. For $20, I got 90 pounds of them, over 1,000 pieces from 1/4" up to 7/16", 2" to 4" in length in 1/4" increments.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20180311_b.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1521518766)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/30640/20180311_a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1521518763)
Quote from: doc henderson on May 21, 2022, 01:28:20 PM
I would activate the clutch and lube valve from the same switch, prob. your plan.
I'd run it off the clutch side of the clutch switch. That way, if you don't need lube, you can turn it off. But when you do, the clutch switch is the only one you have to use. Don't forget to put in a adjustable water valve on the line so you can drip the right amount when activated.
Quote from: Cornerstone on May 16, 2022, 04:25:19 PMThe log bed had tilted just enough to allow the saw head to free roll down the rails, only to get nearly half way through a 1/4" thick log dog that was raised above the blades height.
I did almost the same thing with the EZ40 when I first got it. Checked all the fluids, practiced rolling the carriage and all that sort of stuff. Excited to cut, I pulled it out of the shop with the tractor. Got it to the cutting area, raised the tongue to get a board under the front jack, the head rolls to the back and coupler disengages from the ball. Sawmill stands up on it's tail end with the tongue about 6' up in the air. I realized all my mistakes at the same time. Did not put bolts in place to lock head and did not close trailer connector for the 50 yard trip to the cutting area. Luckily, I had put a stop bolt on the frame to prevent the head from completely rolling off. With the sawmill tilted up in the air, I scurried to get it down and back on the tractor before anyone saw me. Always secure head before moving mill!
Mistakes happen, there is definitely a learning curve!
Thanks for the pointers guys, but my clutch is centrifugal so no wiring to it. At this point the lubrication solenoid with switch will be the only wiring needed.
The mill had it's maiden voyage yesterday. It seemed to tow just fine. I am debating on getting larger rims and tires though. I don't think it will be a problem with what I've currently got, but I would have more confidence in a higher weight capacity tire. Plus the fact that larger tires roll easier over rough terrain, and lastly the iddy biddy 12" rim just looks goofy to me. I took it over to my brother in laws place to show him how it worked. He's a fine woodworker and is one of the reasons I made the decision to build this thing. I was loading an ugly 20" red oak log on the bed, using the forks on my skid steer, and accidently dropped the log about a foot high instead of gently setting it down. That log rocked the bed so hard the back rollers on the saw head came off the track. Thank goodness I listened and installed the keepers, otherwise the thing would have come completely off the track, bending or breaking who knows what...
Wire up a limit switch or something small so when you pull the throttle it pushes the button and turns on.
Glad you installed the keepers that would have been a bad day.
I put maxxis tires on my big trailer. highly recommended.