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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: Wilkins on March 13, 2022, 11:11:05 AM

Title: White ash uses
Post by: Wilkins on March 13, 2022, 11:11:05 AM
I have a number of large white ash trees in my bushlot that are falling victim to emerald ash borer. It breaks my heart to witness the death of these beautiful creatures. I am debating the purchase of a sawmill to make lumber from these trees.  I have no experience with milling or using non-commercial building materials. I could use dimensional lumber for framing or exterior siding of outbuildings. From my reading it appears that white ash might not be suitable for these uses. I would love to get input from anyone with experience in milling, drying and use of white ash wood

Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: WV Sawmiller on March 13, 2022, 11:36:37 AM
  I have used ash for my rafters on my pole barns I built to store my lumber and am happy with it. Clear ash lumber makes beautiful furniture. I have one local wood worker who prefers it to most any other wood. I use it for flooring in my small sheds and composting toilets. I make 8/4 live edge primitive benches from it.

  It is hard and very straight grained and you need to pre-drill it to held get your fasteners in and to help keep it from splitting.

Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: hersnsh#590 on March 13, 2022, 05:37:02 PM
I make 5/4 grade stakes from the straight grain sap wood.  I've also used it for rough flooring in a remote cabin site.  It seems to work well for both.

Dale
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Magicman on March 13, 2022, 05:38:52 PM
 
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN0064.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431130487)
 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN0065.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431130498)
 
Dried, planed, & T&G Ash Flooring, and this was not "rough" flooring.  :)
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Brad_bb on March 13, 2022, 06:03:22 PM
You don't need to buy a mill, but you can if you want.  Most mills are a back ordered a year.  If you can find a used one, you'll pay almost as much as a new mill, or at least a lot more than you would have a couple years ago.  You can get the logs ready and hire a mobile sawyer to come, or trailer your logs to a sawyer.  You just need a place to store the stacked and stickered wood after it's milled.  Inside a pole barn is best.  it can be stored outside, but you need to  put a roof on it(tin with weight) and protect it from the sun.  I'd prefer it in polebarn out of the weather.

Ash is great wood for so many things.  I've used it for Cabinets, trim, 2x8 T&G for my barn interior.  If it's dying now, has been dead for a season or two and sometimes more, and still standing, the wood should still be perfectly good.  I milled all the standing dead ash on my new farm, over 300 logs, into 2x8 and 2x6 for T&G, and some side wood 5/4 boards and some handle stock.

Ash is a great wood to work with and most of it will be gone soon.  It was one of the most predominant species here and now I have only a handful of surviving trees.  They are smaller and the beetles don't seem to attach until they get over 5 inches.  I think the beetle population has dropped dramatically because so many Ash are gone now.  We'll see if any of these left survive.  They Also keep sprouting from the ground from seed.  Who knows if any will survive long term with the beetle here now permanently.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: WV Sawmiller on March 13, 2022, 06:45:01 PM
   BTW - if the trees are still standing but dead be very careful when you go to cut them because they will drop big limbs on your gourd and often when they start to fall they will snap off half way up and the top will come back on you. Sometimes on mine the butt log and 1-2 above are okay but the tops are getting very soft and punky.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Wilkins on March 14, 2022, 09:13:46 AM
I appreciate the input on my questions about use of white ash. The pictures of the flooring made by Magicman are beautiful. The other suggestions for furniture or interior siding or rafter material are useful. I haven't heard of anyone using ash boards for exterior siding or framing lumber yet. If anyone has experience with this please let me know. Thank you to WV Sawmiller for the warnings regarding felling hazards. My ash are just beginning to die. I expect this next year will be the peak of my ash tree decline. Here in southwestern Ontario, over this past winter, loggers are working overtime dragging 10's of thousands of white ash logs out of Bush lots and off public lands. I expect that white ash will end up similar to American elm here. The majority will be killed off by the ash borer. There will be a few loners and many young trees that will survive. When the young trees get big enough and concentrated enough to make it worthwhile to the insects the borers will return to make another thinning. Sad :'(
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: aigheadish on March 14, 2022, 09:59:44 AM
This is a good example of what WV Sawmiller is talking about. This had been standing dead for a long time and we were out somewhere and came home to this... There's a good 50+ feet on the "top" side of this and the stump/post that is left standing (it kind of blends in but if you look closely) is probably 15-18 feet tall. I'm very happy my kids weren't playing under it when it came down. It's probably 2'+ at the base, pretty big.


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63516/20211111_162102.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637335721)
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: kantuckid on March 14, 2022, 10:26:32 AM
Quote from: Magicman on March 13, 2022, 05:38:52 PM

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN0064.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431130487)
 

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20011/DSCN0065.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1431130498)
 
Dried, planed, & T&G Ash Flooring, and this was not "rough" flooring.  :)
Historically speaking, many old fancy level Victorian homes were floored in wide board Ash. What I've seen was ~ 3-5" widths and mixed.  That material is highly sought after in the salvage market for re-use. 
Or you could start your own baseball bat factory? Ash is often used to mfg. store fixtures which might have become a dwindling market given the Amazon/web sales thing? Bars & restaurants furnishings too if you sell it. 
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: beenthere on March 14, 2022, 10:45:51 AM
Quote from: Wilkins on March 14, 2022, 09:13:46 AM
I appreciate the input on my questions about use of white ash. The pictures of the flooring made by Magicman are beautiful. The other suggestions for furniture or interior siding or rafter material are useful. I haven't heard of anyone using ash boards for exterior siding or framing lumber yet. If anyone has experience with this please let me know. Thank you to WV Sawmiller for the warnings regarding felling hazards. My ash are just beginning to die. I expect this next year will be the peak of my ash tree decline. Here in southwestern Ontario, over this past winter, loggers are working overtime dragging 10's of thousands of white ash logs out of Bush lots and off public lands. I expect that white ash will end up similar to American elm here. The majority will be killed off by the ash borer. There will be a few loners and many young trees that will survive. When the young trees get big enough and concentrated enough to make it worthwhile to the insects the borers will return to make another thinning. Sad :'(
No good reason that ash cannot be used for these two uses.
Likely other woods are more available and traditional for these applications than ash.
Boils down to the effort you are willing to put into turning ash logs into these products. Pretty much the same for any species.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: DanMc on March 14, 2022, 01:39:15 PM
I'm building a post and beam 9x12' garden shed for my wife.  The vast majority of the wood is white ash (beams, flooring, siding).  Beams had to be trimmed straight as they tended to bow when cut out of the log.  I didn't box the heart, so I had to deal with some stress relieving.  Hopefully they will stay straight!

Some of the flitches are being cut into live-edge charcuterie boards as gifts.  I cut them to length, put them in the kitchen oven at 180 degrees for a while, then flatten them out in the planer.  After finishing, I fill the grain pores with Johnson's paste wax.  
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Don P on March 14, 2022, 06:23:17 PM
For food I use beeswax and mineral oil.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Big_eddy on March 14, 2022, 08:37:30 PM
If you do intend to make lumber out of them, cut them while they are alive.once they die, there is brown staining begins inside. It will ruin the look of the ash, and significantly reduce its value if you go to sell it.

Our son made our dining room table of Ash as his final high school woodworking project

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/63722/077D6651-00A7-472E-A964-A2872E7BB2A8.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1647304554)
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Brad_bb on March 15, 2022, 04:08:30 AM
In the past, guys on here have complained about internal stress in Ash.  I'm assuming that was in green Ash.  I've cut almost exclusively standing dead since 2015.  I have not seen the internal stress problems in standing dead.  One of the benefits of the standing dead is that they are often much lower moisture content than green, and in my experience, don't seem to have the stress.  Ash is already a lower moisture hardwood.  So with the standing dead Ash, it can dry a lot faster than typical green wood.

It has a lot of uses, but if you need framing lumber, consider selling your Ash lumber and use the money to buy your framing lumber.  KD framing lumber will be easier for you to work with and cut to size.  With the ash, you don't have to worry about specific sizing, just get the best yield you can.

Magicman's flooring picture shows all clear boards.  With your Ash you will only get a small percentage of clear boards.  If you decide to make flooring or paneling, consider using mill run.  That means using whatever you cut.  The Knots, crotch grain, and bark inclusions can really look good and give character.  The 2x8 T&G I cut is all mill run.  I specifically cut logs to get crotch grain when I could. The character is great.  There are some boards I pulled from the finished T&G stacks and did epoxy fills where the voids were too big or where it seemed appropriate.  Maybe two dozen boards in hundreds.  The epoxy filled voids tinted black look really good too and you end up with very little waste.

Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Walnut Beast on March 15, 2022, 04:40:18 AM
Nice information from your experience with it Brad 👍
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: ButchC on March 15, 2022, 06:29:55 AM
Brad, I too bought a sawmill and cut all the dead ash from my farm instead of firewood and loosing it to rot. We don't have green Ash just white. Stress was not a problem in the trees in the woods but on the edge next to the fields where they tended to lean outward the stress was terrible. I learned to quit trying to make 5/4 lumber out of them when it was a problem and instead sawed it into 4x4, 4x6 and 8x8. What was too crooked for normal uses I cut 4 foot long or less and stacked it on skids about 4 foot high. It went like hot cakes to farmers, contractors and shops for cribbing. I worked in the big city and woukd haul a couple pallets to work. I didn't get  lumber prices but a whole lot more than firewood for sure. Ended up with a demand for it I couldn't fill as word got around and did well until the ash ran out.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Al_Smith on March 15, 2022, 06:39:44 AM
I've used it mainly for wood works like window sills ,valances etc .Hard would be an under statement .A dead ash might stand 8-10 years  but eventually the roots give way and over it goes .It will still be good for a number of years even on the ground .Mill the good logs and fire wood the rest .
I use red mahogany stain and to the untrained eye looks about like oak .
I've got a dead fall in the adjoining woods that's a dandy ,100 footer around 3 feet diameter  .I'll most likely have to use my little Oliver crawler to recover this one because unless I cut it into 8 feet logs my little Ferguson  won't be able to pull it .When I get around to it it will be an excuse to exercise my large saws ,100 cc and larger .
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: WV Sawmiller on March 15, 2022, 09:48:12 AM
   I also cut a number of them into 6X6 and 3X6 cribbing. I found it was a good use for short straight sections I'd find above the first limb.

   I could not find a standard for cribbing so I cut mine 2' long. Of course since then I have had people ask for 3' lengths. (If I'd cut them 3' they would have wanted them 41-3/4" anyway ::).) My son and I used them to raise and load a used storage shed he bought and they worked fine for us.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: ladylake on March 15, 2022, 10:37:36 AM

White ash is a good outside wood for fence rails , trailer decks.  No gound contact , it can get rained on but needs to dry out after.  Ther are hayracks around here over 30 years old.  Steve
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Crusarius on March 15, 2022, 10:50:10 AM
White ash and black walnut look amazing together. Especially if you find the right pattern :)
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: DanMc on March 15, 2022, 11:06:47 AM
Quote from: Don P on March 14, 2022, 06:23:17 PM
For food I use beeswax and mineral oil.
Oh, beeswax would be much better.  Thanks for the recommendation!!!!
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: WDH on March 15, 2022, 12:03:57 PM
Down here in the land of many creepy crawlies and no snow load, untreated ash is a dinner invitation to powderpost beetles if left outside   and used outside.  
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Al_Smith on March 15, 2022, 01:39:47 PM
Bugs they seem to be every where .For some reason ants are very fond of partly green hickory .They eat it like candy .I little dousing of Seven  dust applied with a water applicator will make stack of firewood look like an ant grave yard .I don't know if that might work for beetles or not .
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: beenthere on March 15, 2022, 02:29:33 PM
Ants may nest in the wood, but they only move into decayed wood.  
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: fluidpowerpro on March 15, 2022, 02:51:27 PM
I'm of the understanding that if you spray the wood with a borate solution as is comes off the mill, that will prevent powder post beetles from entering.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Al_Smith on March 15, 2022, 06:46:55 PM
Well since I mentioned it a story about ants .I needed to drop a dead ash maybe 10 years ago .Because of possible damage to a nice walnut I topped it  out and chunked it down in 2 foot chunks .So there I was  55 feet high in a borrowed bucket truck with a Stihl 200T getting eaten alive by ants .I had no where to go .Nasty little black things but up high .Would you believe near the ground in a hollow section it was full of big black carpenter ants .Two different ants in the same tree . That bottom section was fire wood .If they didn't leave I would have roasted them .--good riddance .
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Don P on March 15, 2022, 08:04:45 PM
I've found out hitting nests on the circle mill a few times, ain't nothing madder than half an ant :D.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Brad_bb on March 15, 2022, 11:42:41 PM
Sorry, I wasn't clear.  When I say green Ash, I mean generally Ash that is living and fresh cut, not the subspecies of Ash called Green Ash.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Wilkins on March 16, 2022, 07:59:57 AM
Thanks for all the input on using my dying white ash trees guys! I have another question that will really show my ignorance. If I choose to mill these logs myself how long can I wait after cutting and hauling the wood out of the bush before putting them on a mill eg months,1 year, 2 years? How should the logs be stored to extend their quality before milling?
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Don P on March 16, 2022, 08:44:59 AM
From the moment the tree dies it is heading towards recycling by fire or fungi, mill it sooner than later. Anyone in there, critter or 'shroom, has ample moisture and food for longer in a big chunk and the drying stress in a large timber tends to create checks you can't saw around. Saw it to rough size as quick as possible, with any logs. I was working up one of our dead ash yesterday evening. Lots of firewood and maybe an 8' log... or more dimensional firewood  :-\.

@WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370), do you know the term glassworm and can you 'splain it to me?
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: WDH on March 16, 2022, 08:55:45 AM
No Sir, I am not familiar with the glassworm....
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: beenthere on March 16, 2022, 10:50:31 AM
It's an old wive's tale that logs need to "cure" before being sawn into lumber. Saw them asap.

Wonder where this old tale came to be, and thought "procrastination" or "getting round to it" may have been the reason. 
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Schweg2 on March 16, 2022, 07:07:54 PM
I have a bunch of black ash that went down in a storm. Does black ash have similar characteristics/uses as white ash? 
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: beenthere on March 16, 2022, 07:25:30 PM
Quote from: Schweg2 on March 16, 2022, 07:07:54 PM
I have a bunch of black ash that went down in a storm. Does black ash have similar characteristics/uses as white ash?
Which "characteristics" are you interested in?
for lumber?
for firewood?
for posts?
??
What might be your plans?

How about putting your location in your profile? may help with a better answer. 
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Walnut Beast on March 17, 2022, 06:25:27 AM
What type of wood is used to make Louisville Slugger baseball bats? Approximately half of pro bats are made from northern white ash and the other half from maple. The best timber comes from parts of Pennsylvania, New York and other northeastern states where the terrain and climate are most favorable to its growth.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: kantuckid on March 17, 2022, 08:32:14 AM
About 25-30 years ago I toured the bat plant in IN-I was there in Louisville, KY for an educational conference. I decided I'd learn more out of meetings and me and another guy went to the baseball bat factory. It's across the river in Jeffersonville, IN. FWIW, that trip was before the current maple bat thing had come about. As you can imagine there were thousands of batt SQ blanks stacked in dry storage. 

I've turned a few ash bats myself (I wood burned the "brand placement" and signed the bats my name as gifts to some nephews) as we eat, sleep and love baseball in my family. 
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Al_Smith on March 19, 2022, 07:16:18 AM
Baseball, I lived and breathed it in HS .The crack of ash against horse hide is a sound I'll never forget .That thud with an aluminum bat is just not the same .
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: WV Sawmiller on March 19, 2022, 08:49:49 AM
Dink!  :D
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: kantuckid on March 19, 2022, 09:19:11 AM
R.E., baseball, I'm currently building a "baseball rack". Honestly, my notion of collecting a baseball comes from my kid days as a foul ball hawk, ball shagger for the Topeka Owls Minor league, Class D team. I rode the city bus to night games for not much, saw the games for free, got to be around my heroes, etc.. Nobody kidnapped me or other stuff parents worry about now days. Lots of summer days I caddied all day 7-8 miles from the house via my Mom or the bus that took 3 bus changes, then either played night baseball or shagged balls at the Owls park.  
 We got 10 cents apiece to return them-which we "sometimes did" :D, sometimes they got tossed into our secret cubby hole for later use, not collecting.
Fact is that I never got one autograph while I ball hawked there. Saw Mickey Mantle play several times from an OK team. My Mom dated an Owls pitcher, Jack Dean in HS who was later our HS basketball/baseball coach and my US History teacher, He was a WWII Marine as well.
 My Mom switched guys in HS to my Dad who also played pro ball before the war took away his baseball notions as a career "cause there was me to feed" ;D

These racks like I'm making are the size and shape of a real home plate with shelves that hold balls. Top box shaped area has 2 shelves, holds 5 balls each and a shorter shelf in the triangle holds 3 balls and one ball in the tip of the plate/shelf. (I can send you the measurements if you like?)

 I was asked to make it for the grandson of the guy who's sawing my White pine logs for my cabin build-so sort of an important guy to do a favor, huh? ;D

My version I copied from web pics-lots for sale on Amazon @ around $50-60, more if they have a glass door cover, mine is just the shelf for a little league kid. I give stuff away as not crafting for money. I'm using walnut cause it was on top a pile and have lots. These are made from a 1x4 about 8' or so and an easy project that could be a money maker for craft sellers here.
 
Back to ash which could also be a ball rack wood. 
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: kantuckid on March 19, 2022, 09:23:00 AM
Quote from: Al_Smith on March 19, 2022, 07:16:18 AM
Baseball, I lived and breathed it in HS .The crack of ash against horse hide is a sound I'll never forget .That thud with an aluminum bat is just not the same .
Before the KC Athletics were "born" and the KC Royals too, I was a Cleveland Indians fan as a kid.
 FWIW, in KC games at their old ballpark on The Paseo Blvd, I saw Negro leagues games with my Dad then later the KC MLB teams same ball park.
 My Dad got free tics from trucking companies he worked with in KS.  
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Al_Smith on March 19, 2022, 09:46:58 AM
There is something about ash for ball bats that neither hickory or maple has .As for tool handles I guess some are made from ash but more, like hammers shovels hickory works out better than ash .Whatever it is they figured out years ago, in days BA--before Al .
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Don P on March 19, 2022, 07:24:15 PM
Here's a good explanation of glassworm in an article by Dan Cassens;
Hardwood Lumber and Veneer Series: Ash (purdue.edu) (https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-272-W.pdf#:~:text=Glassworms%20and%20turkey%20tracks%20are%20two%20additional%20characteristics,more%20as%20light%20brown%20scratches%20in%20the%20wood.)

We tried a run of ash furniture in one shop I worked in, it didn't make it but was fun to work on. One of the characteristics that I thought was cool was the glassworm tracks that would occasionally come by.

This is a paper from the early 20's on ash and other woods in motorcars;
Substitutes for ash in atomobile bodies (fs.fed.us) (https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fpltn/fpltn-147.pdf)

Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Stephen1 on March 19, 2022, 07:37:04 PM
Quote from: Schweg2 on March 16, 2022, 07:07:54 PM
I have a bunch of black ash that went down in a storm. Does black ash have similar characteristics/uses as white ash?
Yes I can not not tell the difference. Ash is a nice wood. The poor mans oak tree I have heard it called. 
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Stephen1 on March 19, 2022, 07:39:54 PM
Quote from: Wilkins on March 16, 2022, 07:59:57 AM
Thanks for all the input on using my dying white ash trees guys! I have another question that will really show my ignorance. If I choose to mill these logs myself how long can I wait after cutting and hauling the wood out of the bush before putting them on a mill eg months,1 year, 2 years? How should the logs be stored to extend their quality before milling?
As soon as you pull the logs out the bush is best to saw them . I believe all woood is best sawn fresh, stacked and stickered properly. Sometimes it is better to hire an experienced portable sawmill to come and mill your logs. Ends up costing less and can ussually get more than enough wood in a day of sawing to do you for years to come for wood working or building small projects. 
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Walnut Beast on March 19, 2022, 10:42:37 PM
Quote from: Don P on March 19, 2022, 07:24:15 PM
Here's a good explanation of glassworm in an article by Dan Cassens;
Hardwood Lumber and Veneer Series: Ash (purdue.edu) (https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-272-W.pdf#:~:text=Glassworms%20and%20turkey%20tracks%20are%20two%20additional%20characteristics,more%20as%20light%20brown%20scratches%20in%20the%20wood.)

We tried a run of ash furniture in one shop I worked in, it didn't make it but was fun to work on. One of the characteristics that I thought was cool was the glassworm tracks that would occasionally come by.

This is a paper from the early 20's on ash and other woods in motorcars;
Substitutes for ash in atomobile bodies (fs.fed.us) (https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fpltn/fpltn-147.pdf)
Great information!
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: wkf94025 on April 05, 2022, 10:40:09 PM
Just reading this thread top to bottom for the first time.  @Magicman (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10011), your flooring is gorgeous.  Did you sell it, or gift it, or use it yourself?  

I've got a large ash coming my way from urban sources next month.  Jones'ing to make bats for my local little league, which of course will justify a lathe and a CNC toy.  Every player has to have his name and number on their bat, right ??
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Magicman on April 06, 2022, 07:50:13 AM
It was for my own use beginning here:  LINK (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=47709.msg1271707#msg1271707)  and continuing on the next page.
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: Al_Smith on April 06, 2022, 02:50:59 PM
Not to rain on the parade but if my info is correct a bat for regulation  little league has to have a certification sticker .
Title: Re: White ash uses
Post by: wkf94025 on April 07, 2022, 12:47:12 AM
No rain at all.  These aren't for use in games.  These go on the wall at home, maybe signed by your teammates and coaches, or something like that.  What's cool to a 9yo is that:  1) it's not aluminum, which is all we use now; 2) it has your league name, your team name (and logo?), and possibly your name and number on it.  Totally custom, and old school to boot.