Hi All, yes, I am new here. Thanks for taking the time to look at this post, and thanks for your feedback.
I have a WoodMizer LT40 Wide (diesel hydraulic) on order, so I am not looking for advice on selecting a mill. While I am waiting for manufacturing, though, I am preparing a place for the mill, and I would like to avoid pitfalls and incorporate any best practices you're willing to share.
Here's the background and budget details :
- I run a small custom furniture shop. The plan is to mill my own local hardwood, when I can, for use in the business and sell what I don't need. Milling for others is secondary / a bonus.
- I own 60 acres of hardwood forest (mostly oak, maple, cherry) that will more than satisfy my needs. I will have to source logs of other species if I need those.
- I have a 50 x 70 area of bare dirt on which I can put the mill. I can clear a larger area, at some expense.
- I have a $50,000 max budget (does not include the mill itself) for anything and everything beyond the current bare dirt.
- I have a fairly large tractor (JDeere 4066M HD) for loading/moving logs and any self construction.
- I don't have access to free labor from friends or family. It's me only or paid labor.
I was thinking of putting in a cement slab for the mill to sit on, and building some sort of shelter /roof over it, but that's as far as I have got with planning. I have about 9 months until the mill arrives.
I would really appreciate your ideas for ideal setup, mill placement, do i need shelter for sawn lumber? Is a kiln more important? Is all the sawdust a fire hazard? Any/all comments are welcome. Thank you!
Edit: @beenthere (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=180) suggested I mention my location. I am in Northwest Georgia
Welcome to the forum.
Shelter for air drying is a plus but it can also be done by covering piles with sheet metal. For furniture you should be kiln drying after air.
The sawdust just needs to be removed.
At a minimum I'd build a "doghouse" to cover the carriage/engine on one end. A full roof is best for sun and weather shelter for the mill as well as the operator. Concrete can be tough on your feet but an advantage otherwise.
Think about how the wood will be moved through the mill - log to lumber, including the slab wood and layout accordingly.
You'll want forks for the tractor.
What about the kiln component of your finished lumber? Subbing that out?
Put you sawmill in the back corner and leave the best land for handling or stacking lumber. Once you get good at sawing you will need a place for everything you cut to go as it is sawn. This is the hardest part to do but good planning and constant changes can lesson much of the labor. The sawing is the fun part after that you have the sorting and sticking, weighting down and protection from sun and rain. This will burn up all your time and if not done ruin all you lumber.
Quote from: jpassardi on March 17, 2022, 06:00:55 PM
Welcome to the forum.
Shelter for air drying is a plus but it can also be done by covering piles with sheet metal. For furniture you should be kiln drying after air.
The sawdust just needs to be removed.
At a minimum I'd build a "doghouse" to cover the carriage/engine on one end. A full roof is best for sun and weather shelter for the mill as well as the operator. Concrete can be tough on your feet but an advantage otherwise.
Think about how the wood will be moved through the mill - log to lumber, including the slab wood and layout accordingly.
You'll want forks for the tractor.
Thank you for replying. Good news that I have both forks and a grapple. I do need a skidding solution of some sort better than just a chain. Maybe I should get a log arch too for when I get logs onto the trail?
As for concrete, I assumed it would be easier to clean than gravel or dirt.
Quote from: Southside on March 17, 2022, 06:31:32 PM
What about the kiln component of your finished lumber? Subbing that out?
At the moment, I am sourcing all of my lumber from a hardwood supplier. I failed to mention that I also have a good amount of Poplar on my property.
In the past, I have treated air dried lumber with insecticide, and have not had issues, but this has been a very small amount compared to what I buy.
Quote from: moodnacreek on March 17, 2022, 07:17:40 PM
Put you sawmill in the back corner and leave the best land for handling or stacking lumber. Once you get good at sawing you will need a place for everything you cut to go as it is sawn. This is the hardest part to do but good planning and constant changes can lesson much of the labor. The sawing is the fun part after that you have the sorting and sticking, weighting down and protection from sun and rain. This will burn up all your time and if not done ruin all you lumber.
Thank you for replying. So you don't need much access on all sides of the mill? Just the side with the hydraulic log lift? The sawdust discharge (and operator station) are on the other side. If I enclose it in a pole barn or something, I am concerned that I will need tractor access for cleaning.. But I'm just guessing.
How are you going to access the lumber in your shed? Will you have a forklift that you can move stacks of lumber around in the shed? I like access from all sides but if you have rollers or MHE to get to your lumber that will solve that issue.
Quote from: WV Sawmiller on March 17, 2022, 08:25:56 PM
How are you going to access the lumber in your shed? Will you have a forklift that you can move stacks of lumber around in the shed? I like access from all sides but if you have rollers or MHE to get to your lumber that will solve that issue.
The only MHE I have is the tractor. So I will need to either accomodate that somehow with the shelter design, or I guess have to shuffle the stacks around. With a $50k budget, I'm not sure what I have to have (small kiln?) vs nice to have (roof over everything?)
I am not a wood worker, just a lumber maker, but if someone were to ask me about building and selling furniture with air dried hardwood I would strongly recommend against it. In Georgia I don't think you could get below 12% MC without some sort of kiln in the process.
Quote from: Southside on March 17, 2022, 08:42:06 PM
I am not a wood worker, just a lumber maker, but if someone were to ask me about building and selling furniture with air dried hardwood I would strongly recommend against it. In Georgia I don't think you could get below 12% MC without some sort of kiln in the process.
For what it's worth, I have a climate controlled workshop where I maintain 35% humidity. I can store about 2,000 BF inside. I pre stage 2-4 months of lumber in the shop and I am able to get it down to 7-9% no problem (from 16-18%). But 90% of what I buy is kiln dried and already at <9%. We're a small shop. I doubt I use more than 1000BF/month unless we get a big project. I'm more worried about insects than moisture content.
Should I build an inexpensive solar kiln? Bite the bullet and buy a professional (small) one?
My concern would be bringing air dried, non sanitized, hardwood into that shop and introducing PPB's. Anything I sell that is for interior use, with the rare exception of dimensional pine for framing, goes through my kiln and a HT cycle.
I don't need the call one day asking what these "little piles of sawdust" are coming from my lumber.
@WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370) and @YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) can add value to the conversation.
With only a $50M budget, get what is necessary.
You need to have a roof over air drying wood, but no sides. This needs to be on flat concrete.
Lots of sawmills, mine included, don't have a concrete floor, it's hard on feet. A roof is a must. I would argue that a dust collector is a must, also.
People who buy furniture grade wood will run away if they find out the wood has been sprayed with pesticides. Heat is the solution, from a kiln. So yes, a kiln is a necessity.
A solar kiln not get hot enough, long enough for sterilization. Get a small DH kiln.
50x70 is going to be pretty tight, especially driving a tractor around with long logs in the grapple.
I just recently went through this process myself. You are not only producing lumber, you are processing whole trees. So you need to determine how you will handle/process branches, trash logs, firewood and then storing logs if you have a bunch. Log arch good idea. Will you buck the log to your sawing lengths in the field or at the log yard? Some log bunks to keep the logs off the ground are needed.
Some folks build a log deck next to the mill to stage several logs so they can keep on sawing. You have to handle the boards, remove the sawdust from them. If you want to stack and sticker as you cut, you need a place for the stickers on-hand. You will need room to handle long boards and get them stacked. There is also a need for a place to toss the flitches and waste. And you will need to move that pile after it gets too big. You will be going through the steps thousands of times.
Think hard about how you move logs and stacked wood from one place to another. Expansion is one of those things that will occur. Try to incorporate that a bit in your thinking. My log yard has grown much larger than I thought it would. I have cleared the trees between trees to make space.
Build the shed over the mill first if not in a barn. Then the air-drying shed, finished wood storage and finally the solar-kiln. Being a furniture maker, you probably have a climate controlled space to store your quality wood. You might overwhelm your current storage area after you start producing and make your stock for sales. Georgia will get plenty hot enough to make a solar kiln work great. Just build it well.
Mr. Buck:
Consider being able to saw thick material then raising the pieces with the toe rollers and then driving the forks between the mill bed and the material, then lifting it off the mill bed, and driving away.
I was sawing slabs at the Shelburne Farms Harvest Festival once where I loaded the log slabbed it then cut one live edge slab which was slid onto the tractor forks, then I rotated the log 180° sliced the rest of it to the desired thickness, then raised the pieces up with the toe rollers and with the forks again removed the balance of the log from the mill.
Did the same thing with 8"x8"x16' white oak bridge beams for another customer.
With large stuff you need to work smarter rather than using brute force.
GAB
- You need a roof over the mill.
- You need a roof over your air drying stacks.
- You need to be able to access the stacks from all 4 sides of the shed.
- You need a dead flat and level foundation under each and every air drying stack.
- If you are building furniture regularly, you need a way to dry the wood to 8% and a way to sterilize the wood.
- Plan on sterilizing the wood at 150 degrees held at that temp for 24 hours.
- You MUST have heated/cooled conditioned space to store the kiln dried lumber.
- A Nyle L53 dehumidification kiln will be just right for kiln drying 1000 bf per month. You can do double that with air dried lumber going into the kiln.
- You need a good planer, at least light industrial preferably at least 20" width with the carbide inserts. Planing 1000 bf of lumber is a big job when working alone especially wide, thick, heavy slabs.
- You need a way to beat the people back once word gets out that you have kiln dried hardwood.
A very efficient way to accomplish the sawing and air drying part is to have a designed Agricultural pole barn built. It will go up fast and is cost effective. You cannot easily build a stick built shed of any size by yourself. It can also be added onto over time.
I did not pour the whole floor in concrete on my first shed (get ready, one will likely not be enough as things progress) but instead poured concrete pads all around the exterior of the shed for the air drying stacks.
My mill and edger are on one end of a 25x90 metal agricultural pole barn and that end is open for access. There are air drying stacks on the outside from one end to the other forming a horseshoe of air drying space. My shed will hold 10,000 bf of air drying lumber used this way.
Here is the working end of the shed with the sawmill on the right and the edger on the left. The space in between is where I park the tractor when I am done working.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_1047.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1435710821)
This the air drying end of the shed with the stacks on dedicated concrete pads accessible from the outside on all sides. I have another building not pictured just like this one that is 30x60 and is fully dedicated to air drying lumber.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_1552.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1472730826)
Logs staged for sawing on the working end.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2397.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1527896889)
I also have a dedicated 25x30 insulated metal building that is used to store kiln dried lumber and slabs. There are two full duty dehumidifiers that keep the humidity at 40%.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2147.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512998689)
You are smart to think this through beforehand and develop a strategic plan. If you leave any one piece out you will suffer for it and have to make alternate arrangements. You could always just buy kiln dried stock and save yourself a massive amount of work :).
You knocked it out of the Park Danny . . very well done
Danny,
Nice setup. Do you have problems with rain blowing in on your of lumber stacks? I have seen but never tried breathable screening to go over the sides. It would not completely stop the moisture but would sure reduce the amount getting to the lumber.
I did notice that Danny left out that the OP will need a Tree Smoother. Not nice to set a new guy up for failure by leaving out such a critical component. ;D
Danny, that looks great. Are you sure it isn't Photoshopped? The stickers look like they have been lined up with a laser beam! Very nice! Makes my stuff looked like a drunk monkey stickered it!
There's plenty of advice on spending your money, and from where I sit, it's all good advice. WDH has set the bar high. His operation has always looked as clean and orderly as a "staged" house that's all pimped up and ready for sale. Dunno how he does it. Obviously no drunk monkeys working there! 😁
My advice is time oriented. And back saving. Do a few searches here on the Forum on sawmill layouts and sawmill workflow. You'll be able to cherry pick from the hard earned experience of dozens on the best sawmillers on the continent. . . and even some from 'down under'. Those workflows will be force multipliers, as they are the time proven layouts that maximize efficiency.
Another bit of advice is to check out "open bottom lumber pallets". I first saw this concept presented by Jim Rogers here on the Forum (not sure if he came up with the idea but he explained it best) and it will get you close to the OHIO goal.
Only Handle It Once.
Genius.
It does not look that clean and neat at the moment.
X2 on the Tree Smoother comment.
I built my pallets, leaving the bottom open. One word of advice when making the longer 16' pallets...Use full 2" thick lumber for the runners that go on top. Don't cut corners and don't use flimsy 1x's because the ends will sag when you lift it with your forks. I've even made some from 3x8's before.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/33361/20220319_004716.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647668752)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/33361/20220319_004905.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1647668753)
Thank you to everyone who posted with such thoughtful responses. I sincerely appreciate it. While others chime in, I'm going to do the suggested research and plan out the layout/workflow first, then see what I need to build and buy to support that. I'll post a diagram and notes when I get it drawn up.
I did some brief research, and it looks like kiln drying services are scarce to non existant within a 70 mile radius of me. Could be a good business opportunity :)
I will add that whatever you do plan on making more room to grow. One of my air drying sheds is one of those cheap shelters/ carports like what they park RVs under. I went with the biggest one they made. 25x40 It doesn't allow access to all four sides but it was economical. I put 6" concrete floor and the whole thing was less the 12K. I also have the 100x90 shelter that the mill, planers and lumber is kept. Then there is the 40x50 store building and the 30x40 blade shop with attached kiln. I'm now working on adding another 25x50 storage area. It never ends. Every time I build a building I think that will be all I will need. Nope should have went bigger.
You say you are going to source your logs from your own land. I would recommend cutting those close to where the mill is. That way you can put more buildings where they are at now. ;D
You're in GA. which means you have no excuse for not coming to the project at the top of the sawmilling board. You will be able to talk to some folks that know what they are doing and take a look at my set up.
I want to say thank you again to all those who gave me opinions and guidance when I originally posted my questions. Your information has been critical.
Much has happened since then. The lead time on my original order of the LT40 diesel mill grew to almost 2 years due to supply chain issues. I ended up canceling and re-evaluating the scope of what I was trying to accomplish. I downsized my expectations and increased my short term budget so that I can clear more land, build a shelter for the mill and board storage, and add a (smallish) kiln sooner.
That said, I placed a new order for the LT35 Hydraulic (25hp gas). The mill is supposed to arrive in September (or sooner), God willing.
If any of you wouldn't mind, I would appreciate it if you would consider the following questions and give advice or opinions:
1. What tools do I need to have available to be productive? I have a pretty well stocked garage. Is there anything I need to have within arms reach of the mill at all times? (I have 2 cant hooks and a pickaroon already, and chainsaws aplenty)
2. What replacement / wear parts should I stock besides blades and how many? I asked the salesman - he added one extra roller assemby and 2 tires. Should I have more?
3. Blades. They sold me a box of 15B3751584S, 0.045 x 1.25 x 158; 4°. Remember that I am new to this. The rep, who also services and owns an LT35 himself, said that these will cut whatever I want while i am learning. Thoughts? Should I have more than 15 on hand? He did not want to sell me the debarker. He said the current LT35 debarker motor is under powered and trips the fuse/breaker constantly.
4. Assuming the location is flat / level, is it reasonable to begin milling logs within 24 hours of parking the mill? I have to drive it 150 miles or so. They told me that it would not need any adjustment /alignment when I get it home. What's y'alls experience with bringing a "mill on a trailer" home the first time?
5. Besides fuel and water (I'm reading up on various lube additives) do I need any other fluids on hand? Hydraulic oil, grease, lube for the rails?
6. I'm not yet planning to run full electrical service out to the mill area. Just one 20A 120v circuit for some LED lights and the occasional corded power tool / battery charger. When I add the kiln, I will add a meter and 200A panel for future expansion and to eventually run the kiln(s).
7. Are piles of sawdust laying outside decomposing in a generally wooded area a fire hazard? Does it spontaneously combust like compost can? I plan to spread it on our trails for the most part. But does it need active management for safety?
Thoughts (links) on any / all of this are appreciated and welcome. I have been searching the forums. The info is overwhelming. Thank you!
I'm sawing with the same mill you have on order. Common lubes and fluids are readily available. I use ATF in a squirt bottle to lube most moving surfaces, rails and mast. I keep a tape measure on the control panel when sawing. I keep a handful of little HF magnets there as well as a cheat sheet for the various thicknesses I saw. I'll attach that below for you to see, copy, use, disregard as you choose. It makes sure I land on a finished board.
When sawing, especially hardwoods, when I turn the cant to the final face I clamp below the height of the last board and saw to the bed without unclamping. I if I unclamp the thin cant often wants to rise up and that will ruin one board.
I throw my flitches on the loading arms and edge them against a stack of boards from the cant they came off. If you're using and edger you may/will use a different work flow.
I keep a spare belt of every size, a couple of blade rollers, a spare drum switch for the Up/Down and Forward/Reverse functions.
I think everything on my mill is standard English size fittings, fasteners, etc but the engine will have some metric fasteners and such so keep appropriate sockets, end and combination wrenches, hex keys, etc. I keep big end/combination wrenches for bolts on the bed rails and such. Multi-meter and common electric fittings to replace/repair broken wires and such should be in your kit.
I am standardizing on the 4 degree DH blades and only have a couple of other hook angles left so I think you are on the right track with your blades.
Its a great little mill. It will be a little slower and has less functions than the larger one but it is pretty easy to use and maintain. I am sure you will be well pleased with it.
Mobile mill tool box list (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=29941.0)
All great points from a ton of experience above.
Going to one of the basics...if you are logging your own land to feed your mill, it's important to have the equipment to do this safely, effectively and clean. Logs free of mud, dirt etc prolong blade life and are much more pleasant to deal with.
Unlike you in Georgia, I have the ability to source all my logs in the winter while the ground is frozen and snow covered. While this sucks at times, it is extremely easy to keep logs clean.
I would suggest a 3ph skidder winch for your JD as a good place to start.
I started with a LT35HD, with the 25hp Kohler. It was a great mill. I respectfully disagree about the debarker. I have had zero problems, and wouldn't buy a mill without it. Just my opinion.