We're processing a bunch of black walnut for retail sale. A lot of the boards have some kind of defect or knots in spots. Is it better to cut these defects out, making shorter wide boards, or making longer narrow boards defect free? Or is it better to leave the larger board as is with defects and let the buyer choose? At the end of the day, it's about profitability, just not sure what will sell better with the best return. All boards will be planed and straight lined.
How short is short?
Not many dressers 6 feet long. ;D
Shortest would be 2-3ft.
As an example, what we're working on now is 8' stock. Lots of 9"-11" wide boards with flaws that I could get 2ea 4"x8' clear or maybe 1ea 10"x4' and 1ea 10"x3' clear boards out of.
We're just getting started with a bit of this hobbyist retail lumber stuff. Sold a fair amount of heavy pieces, slabs, beams and mantles so a pretty good idea of what works there. I guess being a woodworker myself, if it looks good to me a customer may see the value in it as well.
Ninety percent of cabinet and joinery timber is used in lengths under 3 foot: there's a truth for ya.
Nobody wants to buy shorts. There's another truth for ya.
I swear that every cabinet maker I know dreams of a pack of 30" wide boards that he can rip into 2" wide strips, and every builder gets off on docking 3x2x 20' lengths down for noggin.
I'd leave them as they stand and say "suit resin project", that craze is still booming. Other than that I'd chase width.
What is your market?
I'm pretty sure that NHLA lumber grading has special rules for walnut that allow for shorter boards to make grade (I'm going from memory).
I have no idea what would sell better. I can only say that when my walnut boards have voids, loose knots, bark inclusions, I leave them in my boards because I can epoxy fill them and they'll add character to a piece. I can always cut it out later if I decide to. I just cut some walnut logs that I've had sitting in my concrete yard for 4 years. No bark left on them but they have some checks on the outside of the log. When I cut the side boards, the outer pieces had the checks in them. That is a defect I don't really want. I trimmed some of those to get a better boards. A void from a hollow in the log from an old branch, I'll keep that and I can fill it later.
I've bought a fair amount of walnut lumbrt from commercial sources bfore I got a sawmill. My favorite vendors had several grades available usually. It was presented in different bins, by grade, and priced accordingly as the grade dropped. Most was 8' plus a little trim. That gave me the chance to go through and based on my cut list, buy lower grade for shorter stuff or higher grade when I needed it. I found it better and easier to select the shorter snd narrower stuff from the lower grade lumber with defects because I could cut out defects myself based on length or width and the 8' lumber made it easier to select for grain and color match. I think when the dust settled, the BF per dollar yield to me came equal out across different grades and the profit to the vendor evened out as well, but they didn't have to spend a lot of time ripping, crosscutting, etc. I'm sure it was easier for them to handle and store longer lumber too, rather than various widths and lengths.
Some of my sources would sell shorts of various species, but that usually came from top logs or even butt flare side lumber. Usually had wild grain patterns (but not necessarily interesting) that had limited places in a piece of furniture where it could be used.
This was a while back before big defects became desirable, but making traditional furniture reproductions of say Newport or Williamsburg styles, things like splits and knots and inclusions are not desirable.
Just my experiences fwiw. It does certainly depend on your market but it seems like it would take a lot of time and handling to cut out all defects just maintain grade.
Quote from: btulloh on April 03, 2022, 04:52:11 PM
I've bought a fair amount of walnut lumbrt from commercial sources bfore I got a sawmill. My favorite vendors had several grades available usually. It was presented in different bins, by grade, and priced accordingly as the grade dropped. Most was 8' plus a little trim. That gave me the chance to go through and based on my cut list, buy lower grade for shorter stuff or higher grade when I needed it. I found it better and easier to select the shorter snd narrower stuff from the lower grade lumber with defects because I could cut out defects myself based on length or width and the 8' lumber made it easier to select for grain and color match. I think when the dust settled, the BF per dollar yield to me came equal out across different grades and the profit to the vendor evened out as well, but they didn't have to spend a lot of time ripping, crosscutting, etc. I'm sure it was easier for them to handle and store longer lumber too, rather than various widths and lengths.
Some of my sources would sell shorts of various species, but that usually came from top logs or even butt flare side lumber. Usually had wild grain patterns (but not necessarily interesting) that had limited places in a piece of furniture where it could be used.
This was a while back before big defects became desirable, but making traditional furniture reproductions of say Newport or Williamsburg styles, things like splits and knots and inclusions are not desirable.
Just my experiences fwiw. It does certainly depend on your market but it seems like it would take a lot of time and handling to cut out all defects just maintain grade.
What you're explaining is what we landed on. A lot easier to store standard lengths, less room required, less handling.
Thanks for the responses.
My experience selling retail walnut 25 years ago was a terrible disaster. My customers only wanted black heartwood FAS and 1c. I was stuck with the FAS boards that had sapwood and the low grade. I had to raise the price of the good stuff to cover the boards I couldn't sell. I also had a poor method of selling. I stayed with the customer while they looked at boards for a hour or two to pick out 30 board foot. I should have had a place to turn the customer loose to pick out boards and they wouldn't need my assistance until I counted the money.
After about a year I started selling wholesale walnut green and loved it. I would get a check in the mail in about a week or two after it was graded. Sapwood no defect! The only thing rejected was 3c, which in walnut is rare.
Of course with time markets change. Now we have woodworking resin artists that want character wood. The lower the grade the better. With my new kiln, I may try again.
Hope your experience is better than what I had.
I sell every piece, no matter the size. I have racks for the short boards. I do not cut out knots to create clear sections. I do cut short pieces to machine out bow or warp or twist. I have as many customers that like the character contrast of the sapwood/heartwoods as those that only want the dark heartwood. The latter customers I call "sapwood snobs". Depending on who they are, I add $1.00/bf to the price if they cherry-pick the heartwood.
Sapwood in walnut, hhhmmmm
Makes me think jointer and table saw. I mean that's what those tools are for.
Some customers seem adverse to work like cutting out pieces they need from longer stock and working around defects. That want the IKEA kit.
They would just as soon you also feed their dog and cut their grass and take out their trash.
We've been able to move a fair bit of walnut slabs, but this is our first shot at selling black walnut boards. We've got a wonderful log source and just thought we'd give this a try. I'm certainly not a lumber grader, and don't want to make it too complicated. I divided the boards in to 3 grades with 3 different $/bf. As a woodworker, some of the call is judgement, I guess I'll see how I do. As mentioned above, we'll chase width.
I'll give it a whirl and see if we can move some.
Walnut isn't available up here - I'd love to motor South to see your operation and buy some lumber from you. Having a reliable source of logs is such a huge advantage.
I see that you do a fair bit of woodworking, so my thinking is that if you look at what wood you prefer as a woodworker, that's what your customers would want too.
My preference is along the lines of how btulloh described it: " My favorite vendors had several grades available usually. It was presented in different bins, by grade, and priced accordingly as the grade dropped. Most was 8' plus a little trim. That gave me the chance to go through and based on my cut list, buy lower grade for shorter stuff or higher grade when I needed it. "
Quote from: Andries on April 05, 2022, 10:33:32 AM
Walnut isn't available up here - I'd love to motor South to see your operation and buy some lumber from you. Having a reliable source of logs is such a huge advantage.
I see that you do a fair bit of woodworking, so my thinking is that if you look at what wood you prefer as a woodworker, that's what your customers would want too.
My preference is along the lines of how btulloh described it: " My favorite vendors had several grades available usually. It was presented in different bins, by grade, and priced accordingly as the grade dropped. Most was 8' plus a little trim. That gave me the chance to go through and based on my cut list, buy lower grade for shorter stuff or higher grade when I needed it. "
Make a road trip out of it, it would be great to meet you.
Regardless of if you choose to cut the boards narrow and long or short and wide it will be wrong for 50% of your customers. And you are taking time and losing bdft in the process. Unless you can sell the trimmed boards for a high enough price to cover the cost of your time and loss in bdft I would keep the boards in one piece so the customer can pick and choose what is best for their project(assuming you will let the customer cherry pick the pile for the boards they want)
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Quote from: WDH on April 05, 2022, 09:02:28 AM
Some customers seem adverse to work like cutting out pieces they need from longer stock and working around defects. That want the IKEA kit.
They would just as soon you also feed their dog and cut their grass and take out their trash.
@WDH (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370), don't forget this for The Kit, :D
the rest of The Kit (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=118535.msg1897220#msg1897220)
I didn't read any replies before posting this so sorry if it's redundant.
Walnut seems to sell no matter what size I cut it: Thick, thin, wide, narrow, short, long... it is the lumber that is always in short supply.
Relax and saw it as best you can and don't worry about sawing it "best".