Komatsu Forest and friends with Swedish prototype track forwarder the 'Centipede'.
Centipede - Concept machine (SWE) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/L5EZl9E6mfM)
Rubber tracks on a forestry machine? Eeeek!!
Timberpro to expand their factory. Expected to be useable by summer 2023.
TimberPro is expanding its forestry manufacturing operation (https://www.komatsu.com/en/newsroom/2022/timberpro-expanding-forestry-manufacturing-operation/)
Any new news on komatsu? People with problems or dislikes?
dealer support around here is pretty terrible
Quote from: timbco68 on December 05, 2022, 09:02:10 PM
dealer support around here is pretty terrible
Parts or getting a mechanic? Mechanics from any dealer or shop around here is hard to get. So I don't really count that in my "support" opinions. Fast parts and a mechanic on the phone is huge.
getting a mechanic is more than hard , they don't want to help on the phone period
I don't know of any Komatsu CTL equipment working in MN. Idk about bunchers. The dealer that supports Komatsu has a pretty poor reputation for getting things taken care of. Back before Komatsu bought out Valmet, the outfit I used to work for started out with Valmet ctl equipment. Parts and service were poor, so the switch was made to Ponsse.
We've found the phone support for ponsse quite good. The parts department however...well they sent multiple wrong parts that have cost us days of downtime and then they have the gall to ask you to pay to send the wrong part back (instead of sending a return packing slip code- a pretty automated system that UPS and Fedex offer shippers).
Frankly the Bear has had 12% downtime due to either wrong parts or known issues (hinges rusted shut from trip on a boat) or warranty claims (def pump failed, seals blew on hydraulic pumps, bad batteries, bad valve bank in head and something else I'm forgetting). It's been the difference between profit and loss this year and we're not happy campers. Really low hour failures that have crippled us for days at a time in dry weather. We had a wet summer on the mntn and lost maybe a quarter of the summer harvesting days to weather (can't make a mess on small parcels with homes). So, the real impact is higher. In our view 12% downtime is sort of what I expect on a decently used machine like our elephant.
I wanted to post this somewhere so that those who have bought new forestry equipment could chime in but in our opinion to have so many failures in a low hour machine is surprising. Sort of a big fat F for Ponsse on the reliability of this machine.
@nativewolf (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24089) that's to bad. I've heard my own stories about ponsse. I use Roland and they are awesome. Zero complaints. Mechanic on the phone and parts in three days shipped. Or I could drive it and back in a day. Minnesota doesn't have Roland right? But I was mostly wondering about there equipment.
Roland has great phone support as well. I would like to have one of their mechanics come and fix up our Valmet for a day, fly in and work with a local mechanic. I'd like the old forwarder to find a new home, just sitting around.
I've had the opposite experience with Roland. Parts department has been less than helpful in locating parts, parts unavailable, 2 week wait for some simple items.
Their service department acts as if your inconveniencing them and is hard to get ahold of and get any sort of help from.
The only thing worse is JD support around here.
What do you think about 12% downtime on brand new machine?
Thats a tuff one. With any new equipment there are kinks and bugs to work out along the way. Doesnt matter what color or what industry its in new equipment usually needs to be worked on once its in the field.
My experience with Ponsse over the last almost 10 years and 8 or so machines has been the opposite. The service department is great over the phone, I have personal phone numbers for most of the road mechanics for support also. Parts support is great and I always get what I need and never wait for anything (but I drive right to HQ and pickup what I need).
As for the red machines they might make a great product but if the dealer is useless then nobody will buy them (which is the case UP here).
We are going on 10 weeks trying to get the right drive coupler, pump and associated parts for a friend's Komatsu 840 forwarder and when Roland will answer and talk to us they have no idea when we will get it.
As for rusted hinges or bad batteries those would have only caused enough downtime to PB blast and heat the hinges, and a run to town for batteries. Get up and running and then argue with Ponsse about the cost and damages while your hammering away at wood.
NW, unfortunately I think you are just experiencing the reality of running one of these complicated machines at a long distance from service. I do believe you have said before on here that you and your son are not mechanically inclined, I would say if you want to make a go of this you better get that way🤷♂️
I can't speak to Ponsse in Rhinelander or wherever you're ordering parts from, as I have rarely dealt with them directly. I will say the local Ponsse shop in Grand Rapids, MN that I have dealt with for 14 years does a great job. Sometimes (rarely) there is a communication issue where Rhinelander has sent the wrong part. But when I clearly communicate the part I need to the local parts guy, that is the part I get. A lot of times that may include pictures being texted back and forth, measurements being made and so forth.
A couple weeks back I had an all day text and phone conversation with one of the local Ponsse mechanics trying to troubleshoot an old forwarder. Between him sending me parts diagrams and me getting underneath and getting pictures of the transmission, we were able to narrow down a problem and also figure out the machine had an odd ball, one off transmission👎
Also, you can not base your harvester down time expectations of of forwarder down time. You will most likely always experience 2-3x the down time with a harvester.
We really like the ponsse phone support too- best thing going. I havent talked to Roland in 3 years but the last time I had they were ok. Ponsse parts guys are glad to send parts and they get most of it right. But ...what they got wrong has cost us tens of thousands of lost earnings (earnings, not revenue).
Here is the ordeal so far:
The hinges broke when he went to lift open the door and the whole thing just fell off, nearly crushed his thumb. Maybe 2nd week of operation, trainer had been there a few days before, the hinges literally tore off the door, they were hard from the get go but trainer said that it was just heavy. Heavy front equipment door on the bear. Weak little hinge for a heavy door and it is just a bullet hinge with no grease fitting. It gets salt water during the trip over on the deck of the boat. Either they should change parts in Finland for US bound shipments or cut them off here and install new ones in shop. We had to have them cut off, get new ones, welded into place just so because that door ..well it is a door and alignment matters. We're out a mobile welding charge
The batteries had been identified as bad, and we don't have a source locally for this size battery. I mean I don't mind getting hands dirty. When the forwarder battery went bad last winter I pulled it, dumped acid, treated with epson salt solution- did that whole rejuvenate battery thing, then cleaned and filled with fresh sulfuric acid. A process but no big deal. Kept it going while the new batteries made a slow slow trip to us. These were dead on the boat, charged to get off, dead again for low boy, dead again to get off low boy, dead again in equipment yard. Totally failed. 1 of them in any case, is bad, and has acid leaking out of top. Which you can see if you open the compartment. Which to my mind they must not have or didn't care because there is black acid all over the ends. Cost us 5 days. If someone knows where to get a European sized battery in DC metro region I'd love to know.
Def pump ...who knows but all of 100 hours. I have had 4 machines with Def and yeah they suck but 100 hours on machine then? Replaced no bigee lost 2 days.
Hydraulic seals- lost most of our fluid. Received part, replaced, wasnt it, did another one, that was it. Larger issue- lost 4 days in total. 120 hours on machine at that point.
Top saw was put together incorrectly and over time started pounding on other parts and then refused to open- 30 hours. Right *pithed off. Phone support could not solve that, service team came to do a 200 hour service and fixed, recognized it had been assembled incorrectly.
Now a more common problem in that the something between valve banks in head, known issue with parker nowadays according to phone support, has slipped and causes leak. 150 hours on head. - not fixing this ponsse is.
All of this before the first oil change (which is now due).
There's more in wrong parts (bars were completely wrong and they sent replacement -wrong again and they sent replacements- wrong again) including when my son finally bent the topsaw 2 weeks ago and we went to replace it...and guess what...they sent completely wrong ones as well. I knew we'd bend a lot of bars starting out so I had ordered 50 extras to start with. When he ran out I just went went home and got a box and brought back to the site and ...they didn't fit. Didn't even have right mounting holes. On a Friday afternoon. Weekend shot when we planned to work. The bar tender showed up that monday and we were back in business (great tool- expensive but it works). Eventually we got the bars but it was weeks late and even then just a few at a time. I lost 4 days on bars- talk about getting hot the 3rd time the wrong bars showed up. I was not pleasant.
Tire for forwarder- part of buying the bear was a replacement tire. Well they ask for a pic of our elephant tire so I send it and we get this really nice nearly new tire...it is a Nokian f2 instead of the nokian f that our on the machine so you can't put a track on it because our tracks are for Fs. I didn't know there was an F vs F2 but I do now that I paid for a heavy tire truck to swap them. Tire guy leaves and we put the track on and it didn't fit. Now I know- F vs F2. Ah the price of knowledge. You know who is supposed to know? Whomever looked at the picture at ponsse.
No...not very happy with Ponsse right now. All that before 1 oil change on the harvester. This isn't the whole list either. It also replicates what happened with our Elephant where the thing was sent before being checked out and during a service to fix the worst issues (lift cylinder wouldn't lift, hole in radiator that took a gallon an hour, and rubber mounts that were gone) the parts dept sent wrong cylinder seals- 2 times. This stranded the machine and left us no time with service team to fix it. Fixing the cooling system cost us so much down time I had to let our employee go. I thought at the time it was bad luck or just aberration but since it continues into the harvester which is brand new. Well, it's a trend. Lot of history with the elephant. After we addressed all the issues that were wrong from the start (and we did the water pump and fan clutch ourselves after they provided parts; also hydraulic tank seal) it's been fine. Getting old, alternators go, belts go, batteries changed, etc etc. Mostly though it chugs along and wishes it had some fluid changes which are probably due this week but it is raining every day. Ponsse sent it without a working cooling system and that will forever be an issue and it cost me months of downtime and I spent that time with a broken machine instead of my son whom I dearly miss. If they had sent just the wrong seal for the cylinder I'd have just sighed and moved on. Now that I've had the bear (and 4 incorrect parts sent in just a few months) I'm no longer forgiving.
I've never bought a new forestry machine so I have no comparison. I can say that only 1 of these problems seems related to usage- the head leak but even that was something they could have checked at the shop before sending out a $100k head. The others are recent terrible parts team, and shoddy manufacturing or shoddy subcomponents.
I thought I'd done a reasonably good job getting prepared. We'd ordered a bar-tender so I could bend bars and 50 new ones so he could mangle several without feeling bad. We'd bought several box's of chains and a hose kit for the head so he could rip off some hoses and it wouldn't slow us down. We had a site with lots of smaller YP. Then a very nice stand with smoking YP- no hard large oaks. No massive hickory. Despite our best efforts...we got slowed down. By ponsse. It sucks when a million dollar machine is costing you more money than it produces due to downtime right out of the gate. Sorry for the rant. So disappointed by Ponsse.
Wyatt, can I interest you in a low usage well maintained chainsaw?
:D
Wyatt, I didn't realize the extent of it. I'm sorry for that, and they need to step it up.
Thanks @so il logger (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=28699) we are glad we kept them. Sometimes with all that it feels good just to pickup the saw. We were cutting and bucking in a misty rain yesterday. Forward is at this point 35 mi a each way and the elephant lights are not as great as the bears so we avoid being on the mntn in dark - short days. Doesn't take many trees to fill a bunk in big yp.
I am really curious about the downtime on a new machine. It is a lot of issues for something before 1 oil change.
Wow. That's terrible. I will say I have seen and heard of many new machines purchased and never heard of that kind of luck. One being a bear. They do have trouble. There newly assembled and I can see some problems arising. BUT for that kind of coin they should be there with tools in hand ready and willing to make it right. You've sure got me nervous. I'm over this small older stuff. But I don't have near the trouble with my equipment or Rolland. Just got a box of parts. 3 days from the time I called them and that was over a weekend. I've only got $100k invested in my entire operation. I've been contemplating spending 3-500,000 for quite awhile as some on here even know that... I can't decide. My head and stomach hurt 😂
I have heard of some machines being traded in with less than 1000 hours in them. Of course there's "nothing" wrong with it. But man that can't work out very well for the guy that bought it in the first place. So there had to be something pretty serious as to why they would loose that initial depreciation.
Well you are so much closer to the entire CTL ecosystem that a broken machine is easier for you. For us it is just a long way and we have to rely on overnight next morning which, fyi, has gotten expensive. Oh, and then the ponsse shipping dept tries to push UPS which has terrible next day air service and has failed to deliver next day through the whole year and is more expensive than Fedex (at least to here). {A tip for anyone with an absolutely must get next day air package. Each company can fail but with Fedex the call center will connect you directly to the local fedex office that knows exactly where your package is and will intervene and pull that for you, say they've reported you'll get it at 3 pm instead of 8am as promised. You can call and arrange to go get it yourself off the truck or at the facility. No can do with UPS. If you are doing absolutely need it fedex reduces your risk.}
Through the whole ordeal I've lost a son. So my lesson and advice to you is focus on your kids. You don't talk much about them, you stay on point, you don't try to bring politics into every thread. I very much respect that and I know you are a father. The fine line between working enough to support the family and too much that you don't enjoy them growing up is a fine line. As you contemplate your purchase make sure you've got some cash saved up. Keep a years coin locked away so if you have to step away you can, if you want to stop work because the kids have needs..you can.
We really enjoy the bear when it is working. The ability to process a 30" tree on a mountain side is just great, even if we had to hand fell it is the bucking and delimbing that really kills production. When it works it increases our production tremendously and since we're mostly doing selective harvest in big hardwoods it's a treat to be able to mechanically process and do the TSI while doing the harvest. With a bit of handfelling the bear has proven the business case..when it works. 12% downtime and losing 25% of the days to weather this year has meant the downtime is more like 16% of actual working days and that is all profit.
I am in the ctl area for sure. But I deal with Rolland at the moment and they are 4 hours away. But parts for my harvester head can be sourced from three locations within 45 min.
Kids are everything for sure.
I'm under 6k for hours but had very little down time a few hoses, two encoder wires for the measuring wheel, a set of measuring wheel bearings, and a cable for the head to boom most of which was replaced before they needed to be other then the encoder wire.
Native sounds like you need to switch brands. That machine sounds like a lemon and its support isn't working for you being 16 hours and 1000 miles away. A local guy would have had a loaner machine on the job within a few hours in most cases and would have worked on trading that lemon off. Since you are not mechanically inclined and knowledgeable about the workings of the machine you need a local dealer who can guide you thru the CTL journey.
I feel for your issues and can assure you that all brands of equipment of all types have issues and lemons right out of the box. (For instance a DEF pump for a cummins is/was a 6-8 month wait and in my podunk little town of 1400 residents I knew of 3 machines parked waiting for DEF pumps with less than 200 hours on them), (or the counties new Cat grader with 26 hours waiting 4 weeks on a new ECM and engine wiring harness).
Really sucks when we poured our souls into our work. Our forests are great, better than our pocket books. Literally as I have been replying to messages, thanks all, I was asked to take on another 4K acres as a favor, ie we are doing them a a favor.
Not sure what to do with it right now.
Having a grader down with 26 hours is, I admit, worse.
@Skeans1 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=37446) that is what we expected for a million dollars.
Not even joking the first Ponsse i ran with 19,000 hours on it had less downtime than your new one.
In your situation if Pekka at Ponsse was unwilling to work out some sort of appropriate deal (ie new machine, or have a service guy on standby), I would be jumping off that ship.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on December 07, 2022, 10:29:26 AM
Not even joking the first Ponsse i ran with 19,000 hours on it had less downtime than your new one.
In your situation if Pekka at Ponsse was unwilling to work out some sort of appropriate deal (ie new machine, or have a service guy on standby), I would be jumping off that ship.
Absolutely what I expected. Not this ...
NW, you have every right to be frustrated.
You and your team did all the business analysis and risk analysis only to be failed by Ponssee and the dealer.
You know enough mechanically for a new machine. Would you rebuild a pump? Probably not, but that's for the pros.
Sorry for hear for your son. I'm currently watching my 4 year old learn to skate. Sometimes wish I was elsewhere, but makes me think and re organize the list of priorities.
I really hope Ponssee will make it right for you. Sounds like you'll need to start negotiating.
Quote from: Dom on December 07, 2022, 05:08:30 PM
NW, you have every right to be frustrated.
You and your team did all the business analysis and risk analysis only to be failed by Ponssee and the dealer.
You know enough mechanically for a new machine. Would you rebuild a pump? Probably not, but that's for the pros.
Sorry for hear for your son. I'm currently watching my 4 year old learn to skate. Sometimes wish I was elsewhere, but makes me think and re organize the list of priorities.
I really hope Ponssee will make it right for you. Sounds like you'll need to start negotiating.
Cold butt now will deliver warm memories for years to come. Thanks for the kind thoughts. Enjoy the cold butt.
I don't really have much ability or desire to negotiate.
We have a log loader we bought with 400+ hours on it. John Deere 2156G. A couple hoses on the grapple are it. We are at 1700 now. The fuel tank gauge only works down to half a tank now, but that's not a big deal. It's not a harvester but that's quite bad luck. I know a company that bought all Cat loaders. 568's. All good except one. 5 machines all within two years of each other and one had a really similar story to yours. Only had 1400 hours bc it was always down getting worked on. The rest had 8000+.
A buddy of mine runs a ponsse forwarder. He's down quite a bit chasing electrical issues. Phone support is good, but where we live you're often out of range and have to drive 10+ minutes from the landing, chat, then run back and try stuff.
Downunder further away from the place of manufacture for many parts. (processors made here Waratah 600 series, Satco, Woodsmanpro ) and various felling heads, grapples.
Australia - old Valmet tracked with logmax, Kobelco fixed grapple(bucket swap) rubber track pads - for street work? and Timberpro Forwarder.
Adelaide Hills Logging Video 4K - YouTube (https://youtu.be/MgIWMQyzTi4)
Komatsu - have the Japanese factory built high and wides, factory rops forestry cab or local cab options (2 models - 270 and 300) (there are only a few Komatsu yellow tracked tilters that I know of) Timberpro tracked levelers still sell - repeat sales. Timberpro wheeled forwarders - very large, appropriate for where they are required.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37844/Komatsu_300~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1670494722)
The looming shortage of loggers in Idaho. Timberpro on the hill. Cats on the landing, 70 year old loader operator.
The University might consider changing their tagline handle. The publicity phrase "Educating the Vandals of tomorrow' might not be advantageous in the logging sector.
Idaho's logging industry struggles to fill jobs as demand for lumber continues to grow - YouTube (https://youtu.be/G0V55Mgzy3c)
Anything else on komatsu? I'm interested in just track machines. Like the xt430. Are the early xt430's basically a 425ex?
Chattanooga, TN Komatsu
Komatsu's Chattanooga Manufacturing Operation & Cartersville Customer Center Assist Power Equipment - YouTube (https://youtu.be/zM0l0O7MznA?si=xTx3MnihGKvvOoAG)
factory assembly line
VIRTUAL TOUR | KOMATSU | Video Production, Camera Crews & Animation | Chattanooga, TN - YouTube (https://youtu.be/zEyRYYYbShU?si=NDDgwrMPp2esZRyg)
I remember some loggers/ forest thinning changed from the Komatsu track 430 to the Komatsu wheel harvesters for better visibility/ tree selection.
If I knew I'd stay in cleaner medium sized wood I'd try a rubber tired machine at some point. But I get into 20-30 inch oak and the power and ability a fixed head has I really like. The timbco I have is great. And would like one bigger or just maybe something to run to rebuild mine. It's just showing its age everywhere. I go back and forth from fixing what I have vs just updating like most people do. And there's starting to be some good used fixed head komatsu pop up for sale. It doesn't look like they changed a lot on the early ones. Basically a yellow 425.
Most guys here have run the circle and back to timberpro not sure if its service or reliabilty
There was one guy still running a komatsu fixed head processor around here, I see he now has a tigercat fixed head processor running. I'm guessing a lot of that has to do with the service for Komatsu being less than stellar around here.
All the other tracked fixed head machines around here are TimberPro.
I've heard mixed opinions on timberpro around here. I like the timbco design and crosstrac is supposedly going to be the the lower Michigan komatsu dealer. 🤷♂️
And komatsu owns timberpro. I'm sure it's a hole different deal but still.
Timberpro is supported by crosstrac which is 90 miles from here, and tigercat is woodland equipment @75 miles from here. So service is fairly close.
Komatsu is Roland Machine which is 175 miles away and has left a pretty sour taste in everybody's mouths around here. The machines maybe good but if the support sucks then guys look elsewhere.
Our county just traded a nearly new (~50hrs) Komatsu end loader for a Deere because RMS has been unwilling and unable to fix some DEF issues that have left a brand new loader down in the middle of salt loading season when they need the machine to be available 24/7.
I deal with Roland in escanaba a lot. Zero and I mean zero complaints. Whether it's parts guy or a mechanic on the phone. Great with pricing and working with me. Never got the wrong parts or pricing. (A new kid did once and they made it right the best they could) Even offered to have a guy drive down. I can't say that for any other dealer. I've gotten wrong parts, ridicules pricing at times. No mechanics available and even gotten no call backs. I have nothing bad to say about Roland and wish they had a dealer down here.
Funny we have the same dealer as you but exact opposite experiences. I know of at least 5 ctl crews that have dropped their Komatsu equipment in the last 5 or so years because they had so much trouble with RMS.
Good reason not to use the Forum to belittle a business. Two sides and reasons to many stories.
New Komatsu C93 MY25 harvester/ processor head on wheeled 6x6 harvester processor.
https://youtu.be/IlRkK-8DPrk?si=0rrr3gxXsOlMqwBY