I'm from the era when the old, simple Briggs five horse engine was on everything and was basically indestructible. I also had a Briggs 18hp on my first sawmill in 1995, and it seemed pretty solid, too.
Does Briggs still have that reputation in their new offerings?
Would it be worth spending several hundred dollars more for a Honda engine on a splitter, over a Briggs?
Briggs 208cc 6.5 hp vs Honda 196cc 5.5 hp
I have to admit to a Honda bias. I have had so many problems with Briggs engines over the years that at one point I vowed I would never own another! I may have calmed down a bit on that (I did buy a used Briggs powered splitter after my vow that ran fine).
I used to put in hours and hours behind plate compactors on a paving crew. That is some of the most severe duty an engine can experience- hot, dusty, and ridiculous amounts of vibration. Honda was the only engine that could hang. Briggs was never a consideration 🤷♂️
Grew up the same way on B&S engines and there is no way I would even consider one given the choice of a Honda Engine.
Wish Woodland had the Honda option.
Quote from: barbender on June 15, 2022, 03:17:33 PM
I have to admit to a Honda bias. I have had so many problems with Briggs engines over the years that at one point I vowed I would never own another! I may have calmed down a bit on that (I did buy a used Briggs powered splitter after my vow that ran fine).
I used to put in hours and hours behind plate compactors on a paving crew. That is some of the most severe duty an engine can experience- hot, dusty, and ridiculous amounts of vibration. Honda was the only engine that could hang. Briggs was never a consideration 🤷♂️
My 18 year old 11HP natural gas Honda generator ran for 27 days during hurricane Sandy without missing a beat. That was the B&S nail in the coffin for me.
The first splitter I built in 84 used a 5hp Briggs. I still use that splitter and the engine starts every time in 2 pulls. That splitter has split tons of wood over the years and I can't believe the engine is still going. I haven't had to touch it, honest, still has the original spark plug. I have since built 3 more splitters for other people. They all used Predator engines and the feedback on them has been good.
The commercial Briggs 10hp I had on a EG50 single blade edger was a gem. The lower grade Briggs engines often found on the box store splitters not so much.
That 5.5 Honda has been used and abused on about every severe duty type of contractor's equipment imaginable. It is the gold standard IMO.
The larger Honda twin cylinder engines I am not near as found of.
Kohler, of course. ;D Sorry, had to say it. I would pay several hundred more for a Honda over a Briggs.
I can remember the old Briggs'es on all the potato seed bulk trucks and the conveyor to load the planter had one. Ran them all for over 30 years. I have one on the tiller, been 24 years, starts by the 3 pull, same plug. Not ran that many hours a year, so it's not like it's been used for 1000's of hrs. One on the snow blower, been no trouble either, it's probably 15 years now. Never had a problem on any of them. I have a Honda generator and a portable water pump. Been no trouble either.
Keep in mind my stuff is low hours and not out in the bad weather. ;)
Both Briggs and Honda make more than one grade of engine so comparing must be done carefully, don't compare the top line of one with the lower line of the other. I've had and have Briggs, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Kohler, and Subaru small 4 stroke engines and most were good. In the "way back" I had a few other brands like Onan, Wisconsin, etc.
grespen 24 years ago I had an old "even then" early 70ies garden tractor that had a single cylinder Wisconsin motor on it. I think the plate on the thing said "Gentleman's estate tractor and it was made in MI. Looked like a real old power king.
That wisconsin motor was huge and heavy. The spark plug was huge. But man did it run.
Well, Honda only makes the GX commercial grade and then the GC consumer engines. I have one of the GC engines on a push mower, it is abused and has ran flawlessly for 10-12 years. Maybe a Briggs Vanguard would be ok, but they're as much as a comparable Honda so they're not getting the chance. When a manufacturer is willing to let engines leave the facility that don't run right and probably never will, because they are consumer engines, I will avoid you as much as I can.
When talking to the swing blade guys they all recommended the bigger cc with the EFI. And had better performance than a higher hp with less cc
Question is more properly WHICH Briggs and WHICH Honda. The red and white commercial Honda is one of the best engines ever made. The black consumer engines are just average. Have one on a splitter in the shop now. Fair amount of time on it, but it has started sticking the intake valve. Non-replacable head, so it's not something that can be repaired beyond lubing it and crossing your fingers.
Like Fluid posted, I have a 5HP flathead Briggs on my splitter and it runs great. (also starts on 2 pulls!) Of course that engine is long gone and has little to do with current engine options. Problem with Briggs recently is that there are so many engine families that have come and gone it's kind of impossible to say "Briggs" is either good or bad.
Built my splitter in 1978 with an 8hp Craftsman (briggs) engine.
Base of the engine cracked after about 20 years.
Honda 5.5 hp gx model since, only things replaced are the starter apparatus and one spark plug.
Much more fuel efficient, but Im sure Briggs has improved a lot in the ensuing 40 years.
Spike, you're driving home the point I was trying to make. If you're looking at a red and white Honda, you know it is a top quality engine. If you're looking at a Briggs, who knows?
Had an 8hp Briggs on a new splitter (5 owners so was worked a lot for a splitter) in 1985. Ran great, never a problem other than a muffler rotting out and eventually after 30 years decided to replace it. Bad experience with a Briggs replacement.. likely Chinese with a new version of carb and could not get a replacement due to fuel leak. So running a new Vanguard now (so far so good). Never had an opportunity or need for a Honda. Will read all about them here on FF.
As a small engine mechanic for years I got to know the L-head Briggs inside and out. The old cast iron versions were bullet proof, with a little care they ran forever. The later aluminum engines were good for consumer use but were not up to heavy industrial use, that was Wisconsin territory.
Unfortunately the Walmart syndrome has taken over, lowest price rules so the manufacturers have 'dumbed down' to survive. The Intek series are built for this market, they work to a point but require regular maintenance which the majority never see and lifespan is limited. The Vanguard is every bit as good as the Honda GX industrial engine but that quality doesn't come cheap. FYI all their engines except the intek horizontal shaft versions are now built in the good ol' U.S.A. so quality should improve, their reputation really suffered.
Quote from: sawguy21 on June 16, 2022, 11:35:36 AM
As a small engine mechanic for years I got to know the L-head Briggs inside and out. The old cast iron versions were bullet proof, with a little care they ran forever. The later aluminum engines were good for consumer use but were not up to heavy industrial use, that was Wisconsin territory.
You sure about that? Those engines had "industrial/commercial" decals on them. :laugh:
The intek single cylinders get my vote for worst ever Briggs. Head issues very common. Twin cylinder intek isn't that bad, but like you said, good maintenance is a must.
The I/C engines were a definite improvement with cast iron sleeves and stellite valves but still relatively crude, to be fair most air cooled stationary units of that era were.
A couple nasty Briggs experiences over the years. Had a 14 hp on a riding mower. It liked to dump the gas from the carb into the tank. I rebuilt that stupid carb several times, and had to change the oil about every time I mowed the lawn because it was full of gas. Finally put a shut off valve on it. The starter didn't have enough power to crank that engine, they had some sort of auto decompression valve where the valves apparently had to be set exactly, or it wouldn't crank. Ka-clunk. That was just one Briggs engine. My concern isn't it that it lasts 30 years. If it only has a 2 year lifespan, fine. It should at least function correctly for those 2 years. That is what I hate about them above all else. If I have to adjust valves on the mower when I get done with a 12 hour day, just so my wife can mow the lawn, you'll probably never redeem your reputation with me🤷♂️
The larger Intek vertical single cylinders were an absolute nightmare for us and the factory. Made in China with no quality control and we couldn't fix the problems without factory support. Other than those I have no problem with Briggs. Trouble is, the only alternatives are made in China Kohler Courage and the OEM branded engines.
Thanks, and I need to clarify what I said in the last post. It was exactly those large intek vertical singles I was referring to. The 18-20 HP engines that are used on Lawn tractors are horrible. The small 5.5HP motors that you'd see on a log splitter were fine.
The proliferation of different engines, nearly all from China, has made it hard to be able to service much of the equipment out there. Most of what we call the "Honda knockoffs" such as the Predator engines use parts that are interchangable with each other and even the Hondas they copied. In a general sense, they really aren't that bad. Most consistant weakness we see with these various Chinese engines is rust/corrosion on the inside of metal gas tanks that causes the carb/run issues.
But there are so many oddball things out there, and we simply turn them away. We've always been selective on what we work on to begin with. The idea that we are supposed to work on everything that is sold by the stores that don't work on anything is a concept that I've never embraced. Gets awkward sometimes when you have a customer you'd like to say "yes" to that walks in with something you need to say "no" to. :)
Apparently you are not a Briggs Diamond dealer, they are required to service all Briggs products. They get the best discounts and warranty rates but it comes at a price.
I only have two Briggs left on the farm both are doing wood processing work. Both V twin horizontal shaft engines running 28 GPM two stage pumps. 16-18 HP I think would have to check. One is thirty plus years old and the other 25 years old. Should have put hour meters on them years ago. They get a oil change and oil filter and air filter every year. Mobil one 20-50. Both kept inside. I run NKG plugs in them. I keep my gas clean and no corn fuel in them. I have never had a issue with either one. Two old Wisconsin's one on a firewood conveyor and one on a buzz saw. Just change oil in them and use them. Have a lot of HF engines from boom lifts to water pumps and one on a buzz saw. Just change oil in them and they run. A few Honda's 13HP on a compressor a 20HP on a generator its new so we see how it goes a 13 HP on a seed tender. Then two with a fair amount of hours on them have been good. Never had to wrench on them. I am pretty protective of my equipment and I thing that helps keep things running.
Interesting point on NGK plugs.
Looking on line, some were indicated country of origin, China.
The 2 I just bought for a JD 425 mower are "assembled in Thailand"
I have a Husky mower with a Briggs, says guaranteed to start in 2 pulls.
Has not been started in over a year.
Took 5 pulls and fired right up with old ethanol gas in the tank.
Guess Im just lucky.
Quote from: sawguy21 on June 17, 2022, 11:29:41 AM
Apparently you are not a Briggs Diamond dealer, they are required to service all Briggs products. They get the best discounts and warranty rates but it comes at a price.
Yes, and I think that price is being expected to do things or go places that you might not want to. We always chose to be an "unlisted" dealer whenever we had the option. Sometimes people's expectations are not realistic. Had a call once on something that we didn't sell that was almost 2 hrs each way. "Sorry, we just don't go that far". "But you're the closest dealer" "Mars is the closest planet, but we don't go there either". :)
Those guaranteed to start in 2 pulls promises that Pete mentioned are another silly concept that causes unnecessary problems with customers. If marginal fuel or a dirty air filter requires a few extra pulls, is it a warranty? Not everybody can yank a rope with the same enthusiasm as you well know. Many older or slightly built people struggle to start anything with a pull rope.
I, for one, really appreciate you guys as your posts are shedding light on some issues I've had with some motors. Many of those problems, I think, were built into them at the factory. Spike 60, couldn't you just move your shop up here ? Then you wouldn't be 2+ hours away. :D
Quote from: KEC on June 25, 2022, 12:27:27 PM...
Spike 60, couldn't you just move your shop up here ? Then you wouldn't be 2+ hours away. :D
He could, but he would still be shutting down in December and you guys up there would be just as out of luck and we guys down here will be. :D
Best of Luck and happy trails in Retirement Bob! You'll have to come down off the hill once in a while and see how the poor folks are living. I always have a beer in the shop, and we can probably find some at Bill's too.
@KEC (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=40283) , if Pompey is far enough up there that you aren't getting over run with city folks, then that's not a bad idea. :)
Tom, I will be accepting that invite, so keep 'em cold.
Spike 60, We are having the same issue with city folks here too. They're not all bad, but have different views on things than we do.
Hedge; I missed in your post that you have a couple Wisconsin engines still running and in service on the farm. Very cool. Amazing what regular maintenance and simply taking care of your equipment can do, huh? But those old Wisconsins and K series Kohlers were tough as nails. Briggs had a comparable motor back then as well. See very little of any of them anymore. Do see the occasional Kohler on an old Cub Cadet. But at this stage they are just pull tractors as the mowing decks have rusted/seized long ago.
A lot of hub hub over basically nothing. Ford /Chevy thing ,my dog is better than your dog .Those old Briggs will still get -er-done but you have to keep oil in them . Briggs basically made 3 grades of engines in the flat head days .The most robust was the IC industrial .Honda and Kohler as well as Wisconsin made good engines too so it's mostly a brand loyalty thing from my perspective .
Interesting and often misunderstood thing about the Briggs opposed twins used on riding mowers .Most people are ignorant of the fact those are splash lubricated not pressure oiled .It picks up the oil on the left side of the engine and if it's running right hand tilted down on a slope it cannot pick up the oil .When it's completely out of oil it breaks both connecting rods .Fact as I type I have 2 18 HP units in my shop because of this .
Saying all that any air cooled engine you have to change the oil periodically if you ever expect them to last a long while .
I might mention the last of those blown 18 HP riders I repaired the engine was as I mentioned was junk from no oil .I found a replacement in Florida .100 bucks to buy it another 100 to ship it . As far as I know it's still running and that was over10 years ago .Old riders are like old chainsaws and stray cats .They just show up .A portion of my woods is basically a mower salvage yard .Out of sight amongst the weeds .
While we are talking older engines I have a 12.5 HP Kawasaki on a Exmark walk behind commercial mower, about 30 years old and I bought it new. I don't use it as much as I once did but it still runs good, problem is my body doesn't like starting it as well as it used to. Is it easy or affordable to add electric start.
If it gets above about 8 HP it's a chore to pull over .What I did on a 5 HP tiller engine I changed the valve timing on to increase the power at mid range was use a D-handle .The very best D-handle I've found is from a Stihl 460 rescue saw handle .I have no idea how much they are now of days but a few years back about $8 .Believe me it helps .
Quote from: Spike60 on June 27, 2022, 05:13:26 AM
Hedge; I missed in your post that you have a couple Wisconsin engines still running and in service on the farm. Very cool. Amazing what regular maintenance and simply taking care of your equipment can do, huh? But those old Wisconsins and K series Kohlers were tough as nails. Briggs had a comparable motor back then as well. See very little of any of them anymore. Do see the occasional Kohler on an old Cub Cadet. But at this stage they are just pull tractors as the mowing decks have rusted/seized long ago.
Years ago I rented a small bin site on a farm that had those old cast iron rope pull start Briggs engines on the unloading augers. They just had a metal tub covering them up. I would service them once a year and they always just ran. Had a coworker that him and his two boys garden tractor pulled the Cub Cadets with the single cylinder Kohler's. They get a lot of RPM's and HP out of those one cylinder Kohler engines. Not many of the old Cub's around either.
My dad had an old rider with I think a 16 HP Kohler single .That thing had a piston the size of a 350 Chevy .It would lug down so slow it sounded like a John Deere running on one cylinder .